How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 How to Lie Without Lying   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ]
 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

How to Lie Without Lying

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


75 posted 07-21-2009 10:36 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          I had so hoped that having glimpsed some areas of agreement, we might go on.  I'm sorry about the confusion on my part here, and I'll try to address at least some of your questions.  

     I have no trouble at all understanding the notion of "unmarried."  I also understand the word "married" quite well.  The word "family" is one that is familiar to me too.

quote:
  Mike, quoting from Hennessey:


OBAMA: There are 50 million Americans without health insurance

45.7 million of the inhabitants of the U.S. are uninsured. From that figure..

6.4 million are a Medicare undercount
9.3 million are not U.S. citizens
10.1 million earn over threetimes the poverty level
5.0 million are childless adults between the ages of 18-34
That leaves 10.6 million uninsured, who will still receive treatment in cases of emergencies. http://keithhennessey.com/2009/04/09/how-many-uninsured-people-need-additional-help-from-taxpayers/
How to lie without lying....lesson number 1




     Actually, you will note that it is Mr. Hennessey for whom the notion of marriage seems to have evaporated.  This is curious for such a stellar representative of the 'Family Values Party," but it makes a certain kind of sense.

     Mr. Hennessy manages to steer his way around the whole notion of families by speaking of "childless adults."  He has, therefore, managed to characterize fifty million people as either childless adults or as some sort of unidentified but not quite worth specifying other category.

     While there may in fact be a category of unmarried 18-34 year olds, Mr. Hennessey has not mentioned them.  He has only given the impression that he has mentioned them by using that phrase "Childless Adults."  And this seems to be the category that I suspect is most likely to be the one describing the mentally disabled folks wandering between short term addresses, the street and hospitals, slipped in without actually naming them.  You'll notice he never does actually bring them up, does he.  You have to have a fixed address to collect your check, you know; no address, not government check.

     Another place where the word "married' doesn't come up is among the 10.1 million who earn three times above poverty level.  The way Mr. Hennessey portrays this, none of these folks are married or have children, either.  They simply appear to be single folks trying to bilk the system.
But if in fact they were single folk making three times poverty level, he would be able to say so, as he did when he announced his 5.3 "single childless" folks above — the ones that I think may actually be psychologically impaired.  And he hasn't said so.  I suspect that the problem in not with my failure to understand, Mike, I suspect that many of these freeloaders may actually be children and dependents of families of four or more members.  There are a lot of these folks who get healthcare assistance and who are trapped on welfare because they can't get a job that will pay for the health care of ill children on what the parent or parents can earn.  It's one of those little catch 22 situations that's created by the way the system's been created.  If the health care was available to everyone, then the families in this case could look for better jobs.  I've knows several of these situations.  They're very sad.  They're very tough on the families involved.  Mr. Hennessey hasn't apparently heard about anything like this.  At any rate, he seems content to give his readers the impression that all his examples of this category are single and a playing the system.  If he doesn't know better, he should have been given a guided tour of the reality of the system on the ground level.

     The number of people who need additional help from the taxpayers is at this point unknown.

     When you are given the job of turning the sick folks away, Mike, who are you going to choose?  How would you be able to tell?  Medical ethics seems to have a pretty good answer — if somebody needs care, you supply it.  That's the standard you've always depended on.  Perhaps you know better, and you'd have the doctors change the standard.  Would that be to one that could potentially exclude your family?

     Your assumption that people who can't pay for health care, at least a good number, are doing so because they don't want to work really needs to be proven to me.  I don't see it as more than a fantasy.  Even bank robbers work.  Even panhandlers work; and pretty hard, at that.  It's not a job I'd want, I'll tell you.  

quote:


Why is it that there should be a plan dictating that those who work furnish insurance for those who don't[?]...  




     Because in the end it's cheaper than not doing so, and it preserves the quality of the medical system.  A lot of the expense in the medical system comes from misuse of facilities, and from not maintaining the overall health of the population.  Proper medical attention to prevention of heart and lung related illnesses due to environmental factors and to smoking would massively cut the need for much of the more expensive care.  There are other reasons.  How much do you think it costs to treat folks for smog related and particulate related lung illnesses from say, coal fired electricity plants every year?  

     If the environmental degradation caused by a lot of our industrialization is killing off a lot of our population and making them ill, why should they pay for their illnesses, to follow up on your metaphor; those companies should, and they should make the changes necessary to correct their manufacturing processes to -prevent the damage from continuing.  Given a chance, almost all people are giving people.  Certainly we are.

     Simply because we have given millions in our charitable efforts doesn't mean that it's enough to undo the damage done by a few, who refuse to take responsibility for what they've done to the land and the people in it.

     And by the way, much as I would like a socialized health care plan, because I think it would be cheaper and more effective, President Obama's is not one.  The consumers gets to pick his health insurance company, and while it looks like the prices will be lower than what we're paying now, they'll still not be as low as in a single payer system.  

     That's all I can say for now.  

All my best, Bob Kaven
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


76 posted 07-21-2009 12:16 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, how can you say that the consumer gets to pick their plan when many of us will have no choice in the matter because our employers plan to dump us into the government plan if one exists?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


77 posted 07-21-2009 06:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

He has only given the impression that he has mentioned them by using that phrase "Childless Adults."  And this seems to be the category that I suspect is most likely to be the one describing the mentally disabled folks wandering between short term addresses

Wow, Bob, I fond it amazing that you could come up with that or not understand what he means. Raising children requires funds, Bob. In most cases, a lotta funds! When he refers to childless adults he is referring to adults that do not have the expenses of raising children and, for that reason, are more able to afford health coverage. Your "suspicions" are, at least, misguided.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


78 posted 07-22-2009 02:18 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           No, Mike.  Statistically speaking a childless adult has nothing to do at all with having the funds to raise a child.  There are many adults with children below the poverty line that do not have the funds to raise children, and whose children go to bed without food or with inadequate food every single darn night.  In the United States.  There are a lot of them, Mike.

     I am a childless Adult, as is my wife.  Neither of us have or have ever had any children.  We are fortunately well above poverty level.

     This is the way the statistics have been counted and have always been counted.  Perhaps the Republican Party would encourage you to think differently, but this is not the case.  

     Mr. Hennessey has taken you in with one of his "lies without lying" by allowing to to infer " When he refers to childless adults he is referring to adults that do not have the expenses of raising children and, for that reason, are more able to afford health coverage[.]"  The adults he is probably speaking about in this case are those wealthy Schizophrenics, Bipolar and long term chronically mentally disabled folks (I should be clear that I am being somewhat exaggerated here; there are few wealthy psychiatrically disturbed folks.  I don't want my humor to be misunderstood), such as Borderline Personality, many of which have extraordinary difficulty in refrained from killing themselves let alone in holding down a job.

     Psychiatrically impaired folks seldom have the money to raise a child, nor often the organization to do so.  To suggest that they  are not doing so because they are lazy and rolling in dough is to misunderstand the data.

     Nor have you addressed the omission on Mr. Hennessey's part of neglecting to account for any families in his fifty million person sample.  From his description there are none.  I would suggest to you that the odds of this actually being the case approach the odds of an ice cream mine being discovered tomorrow in my back yard by Barry Goldwater and a crew of Viking Chorus Girls.

     You haven't even begun to account for or even address the financial stretch that his figures require of anybody who actually has a chance to think about them.  Fifty Million people and not one family to throw his somewhat absurd set of figures off?  

     A childless adult is an adult without children, not somebody trying to cheat the Republican party.  Apparently Republicans only think they are.

Querulously yours, Bob Kaven  
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


79 posted 07-22-2009 02:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          If that is the case, then you've already been priced out of the health insurance market, haven't you?  And your company has been only barely managing to supply the benefit at all.  In that case, in very short order, your choices would be between picking up the whole tab yourself or going without.  A lot of companies, especially small businesses have found themselves in this position.  

     Given this set of circumstances, supposing the Republicans don't succeed in blocking the whole thing to see if they can Scupper Obama because they'd enjoy it, then you'd have a choice among whatever plans were offered other than the one that your employer was backing out on.  We don't know what those may be yet because we're being asked not to consider these things and to put off thinking about them.  "What's the hurry?" was pretty much the way I've heard Mike put it.

     Your question, which I believe is a valid question, is a pretty good response to that.  You may feel otherwise, of course.

     The hurry is that we've been trying to work this out since at least '92.  If there had in fact been meaningful discussion during that time, I don't believe that would be such a problem, but the only time actual change has happened is when the Democrats attempt to hold feet to the fire.  Not simply Republican feet, by the way.  Otherwise folks tend to pretend that the situation never happened or isn't important enough to discuss.

     To my mind, that's why it's important to do something about it now.  Because otherwise the whole issue simply vanishes, and people pretend there is no crisis, and that we don't spend enormously more for our health care than anybody else in the world for seriously fewer results.  We're being taken for a ride.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


80 posted 07-22-2009 05:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, have it any way you like. I'm really getting a little tired of this ping-pong match. Feel any way you like, interpret things any way you like and I'll do the same. It's just not worth it....
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


81 posted 07-22-2009 01:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Mike,

          It's about having some loyalty to the information, it's accuracy and how it's presented.  My impression was that that's why you initially upset and started a thread called "How to Lie Without Lying."  You cast a wide net of accusation when it was directed at the President, but when that proved not to be quite as accurate as you'd assumed, and you're own source appeared as though he was the one doing the "Lying without Lying," you seem to draw back from examining the the statements.  You dismiss them as though they didn't matter.

     Mr. Hennessey has apparently been caught distorting things here.  This was worth rage and disgust when you though you'd caught the President, and is worthy of being overlooked when the miscreant is a Republican Big Wig.

     Okay.  Folks do that sometimes.  

     I'd like to suggest that it might be possible that the President is trying the best he can to do something he feels is decent for the American people.  You may disagree with his notion that it will work out, and you may have terrific reasons for saying so, all of which I'm interested in hearing.  He may be wrong, but I believe you end in in trouble more often than not when you suggest that he is ill spirited or malign.

     Also, if we can work out some sort of better plan, something that a bunch of us believe in, maybe we can try to sell it to some legislators, or at least ask some of them about it or plans like it, and see if we can't get involved together in the process.  This is a chance for us to try to do something decent together, if we can agree on what that might be.

     I believe it might be pretty difficult, but the bunch of us are pretty articulate, and sometimes we have something decent to say.  Anyway, that's what I'm thinking.  

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven


    

[This message has been edited by Bob K (07-22-2009 02:30 PM).]

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


82 posted 07-22-2009 01:48 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
I'm really getting a little tired of this ping-pong match.

Faint.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


83 posted 07-22-2009 02:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I don't see him distorting anything. You have your interpretation of his statistics and I explained mine. You asked for my opinions and input on the topic and, when I give them, you declare them wrong. Is that supposed to lead to some reasonable interaction? The pretense of asking for an exchange of ideas as a means to tell the other how wrong he is, no matter what he says, and tossing in the occasional political barb, gets tiring after a while. We've ridden this horse about as far as it will go...

moonbeam, call the bot to bring you over some smelling salts
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


84 posted 07-22-2009 05:53 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Mr. Hennessey has apparently been caught distorting things here.

The distortions, Bob, rest in your assumptions. Your analysis of the figures (figures which are nothing more than irrelevant) is pretty much out in left field. You've clearly thrown logic to the wind?


Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


85 posted 07-22-2009 06:35 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Ron,

          Then perhaps it's time for some basic references.  I'd recommend the last one to browse around in, to get some of the information that Mr. Hennessey seems to have overlooked.  It's probably too much information for one sitting, unless you have extra time and interest, but the information is very good; and objective, as well.

     The other references are shorter, have good information, but are nowhere near as comprehensive.  

     Should you want more information, let me know.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737
http://medheadlines.com/2008/08/30/457-million-americans-still-without-health-insurance/

This Primer, put out by the research staff at Kaiser, gives the details on the population that Mr. Hennessey was unwilling to give.  It shows that some of my speculations were wrong, especially about the psychiatric component of the population, which is still to my mind unaccounted for.  It also shows that Mr. Hennessey’s speculations were wildly off, and that family and children as well as gender and race are very much a part of this picture.  

     The length of the primer is about 20 pages, but if you look over the table of contents, you can find the areas that are most interesting to you.  The thing is loaded with facts and information, and you can take it in small bites and think about it, if you’d like:
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-04.pdf
Sincerely yours,  Bob Kaven

[This message has been edited by Bob K (07-22-2009 07:34 PM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


86 posted 07-22-2009 08:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama's press conference is interesting, especially the squirming justifications.

WHen asked why he is pushing for the bill to be passed so fast, his reply is two-fold (1) It's from all the cards and letters he gets every day from people begging him to do something fast about health care and (2) you have to set deadlines in Washington or nothing gets done. There is a video of him promising universal health care by the end of his first term. Well, that sounds like he gave a deadline to me. Now his deadline is next month, halfway through his first year, not term. WHy this drastic change in deadlines? I think we all know why.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


87 posted 07-22-2009 10:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama's assertion Wednesday that government will stay out of health care decisions in an overhauled system is hard to square with the proposals coming out of Congress and with his own rhetoric. Even now, nearly half the costs of health care in the U.S. are paid for by government at all levels. Federal authority would only grow under any proposal in play.

A look at some of Obama's claims in his prime-time news conference:

OBAMA: "We already have rough agreement" on some aspects of what a health care overhaul should involve, and one is: "It will keep government out of health care decisions, giving you the option to keep your insurance if you're happy with it."

THE FACTS: In House legislation, a commission appointed by the government would determine what is and isn't covered by insurance plans offered in a new purchasing pool, including a plan sponsored by the government. The bill also holds out the possibility that, over time, those standards could be imposed on all private insurance plans, not just the ones in the pool.

Indeed, Obama went on to lay out other principles of reform that plainly show the government making key decisions in health care. He said insurance companies would be barred from dropping coverage when someone gets too sick, limits would be set on out-of-pocket expenses, and preventive care such as checkups and mammograms would be covered.

It's true that people would not be forced to give up a private plan and go with a public one. The question is whether all of those private plans would still be in place if the government entered the marketplace in a bigger way.

He addressed some of the nuances under questioning. "Can I guarantee that there are going to be no changes in the health care delivery system?" he said. "No. The whole point of this is to try to encourage changes that work for the American people and make them healthier."

He acknowledged then that the "government already is making some of these decisions."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_fact_check_7
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


88 posted 07-22-2009 10:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "I have also pledged that health insurance reform will not add to our deficit over the next decade, and I mean it."

THE FACTS: The president has said repeatedly that he wants "deficit-neutral" health care legislation, meaning that every dollar increase in cost is met with a dollar of new revenue or a dollar of savings. But some things are more neutral than others. White House Budget Director Peter Orszag told reporters this week that the promise does not apply to proposed spending of about $245 billion over the next decade to increase fees for doctors serving Medicare patients. Democrats and the Obama administration argue that the extra payment, designed to prevent a scheduled cut of about 21 percent in doctor fees, already was part of the administration's policy, with or without a health care overhaul.

Beyond that, budget experts have warned about various accounting gimmicks that can mask true burdens on the deficit. The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget lists a variety of them, including back-loading the heaviest costs at the end of the 10-year period and beyond.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_fact_check_7
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


89 posted 07-22-2009 10:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"This isn't about me. I have great health insurance and so does every member of Congress," he said.

Maybe that's the problem.....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_30
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


90 posted 07-23-2009 10:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

On health care, the president disputed the idea that Americans will have to make painful sacrifices to bring down costs. He said people will simply have to forgo tests that are wasteful or treatments that are more expensive than alternatives that are just as good.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124826847772072017.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_itp

....and who determines which tests are wasteful? Obama? Maybe a Treatment Czar, to add to the family of czars that Obama has chosen to employ that report only to him? There are videos on YouTube of Brirish doctors who claim they were not able to give proper care because tests they wanted to run were deemed unnecessary....is that where we go?

Perhaps the country could employ the tactics used by the University of Chicago Medical Center, which Obama's wife set up.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1122691,CST-NWS-hosp23.article

Wouldn't that be fun?
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


91 posted 07-23-2009 04:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          It is now 2009.

           Senator Clinton's attempt to get some health reform through was torpedoed almost 15 years ago.

     The Republicans have given us fifteen years of their measured and deliberate process of health care reform.  They have run the congress and the Executive arms of government.  We have reaped the benefits of Republican health care for the whole time.  It was, I must say, a very thoughtful, measured and deliberate time.  Apparently a lot of thought was put into the reforms that were needed and the Republicans were bold.  They were leaders.

     The cost of health care shot up like a skyrocket.

     The number of people covered and the quality of their coverage dropped like a lead shot.  

     It was all very measured and deliberate, and took 15 years of thoughtful and deliberate time.  

     The outcome of this deliberation is that the Republicans are very clear that it is premature act at this time, and that there hasn't been enough time to think about it, and that the President is an idiot for wanting to get something done about this in the near future.  

     Once again, when we look at the Republican plan, it is stark and majestic.  It is to wait and think, and to deliberate, and prevent the Democrats from doing anything that might change anything.  It might not be good for business.

     I want to hear more about how the details of this plan will help the American people.  I want to know how this plan will help us continue down the same great path that Americans have enjoyed over the last 15 years of Republican control.  How the Republicans have managed to bring more care more cheaply to greater and greater groups of people and help fulfill the American dream of Free Enterprise.  Of how American Free enterprise backed by Republican know-how has made health care available to all, and will continue to do so because of savings of scale and the declining prices of drugs that good old marketplace competition has brought about.

     What?

      You mean the Republicans haven't allowed the marketplace to work?  They haven't allowed competition to set the prices for medicines?  They don't even allow the major government health programs, sometimes, to allow free bidding to get the best prices?

     What?  You mean that the Republicans have allowed private health care companies to decide what the doctors can do to care for their patients?  And that they allow the premiums to keep escalating while they care keeps getting worse?  

     Then they say that the Programs that the Democrats plan will produce these changes and The Republicans have the gall to warn against them?

     The Republicans have the gall to warn the public against the very things the Republicans are doing now?  Only they're pretending that it's the democrats that will wake them happen.

     Wow?

     Apparently they've don't believe that any of the public has ever had their insurance company refuse to pay for a treatment their doctor thought necessary before.  Apparently they've never had a relative who was refused a policy.  Apparently they think the public doesn't know that the insurance companies want to make money, not treat patients; and that if they could simply scoop up the cash without bothering with that messy part, that's what they be doing.

     Apparently, the Republicans think that it takes a lot of skull sweat to conclude that this needs some changes, and that 15 years worth isn't enough.

     And, by the way, 15 years worth of Republican thinking has only made the Insurance Companies richer and, curiously enough, hasn't come up with a solution.

     Obviously, we must go along with the Republican plan, do more thinking, and put off any hasty changes that might cost the Insurance companies any money and might actually improve the delivery of effective services at a cheaper rate.  It's the Republican thing to do.

Insincerely, Bob Kaven

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


92 posted 07-23-2009 06:24 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Sorry I haven't been around for a few days - I took a week off work and my wife, bless her little cotton socks, filled it with things that simply had to be done NOW! She's obviously been planning them for a while, my week off just gave her the opportunity to turn her plans into a reality.

I tried to convince her that a better idea would be for me to go fishing but the drive really did need re-paving, the water main really did need re-routing and that flat screen television really did need connecting to cable. Faced with all those things, that I had to admit, really needed doing fishing never stood a chance.


  

Mike,

He wants to do it because he needs a mechanism for funding Medicare and Medicaid beyond 2015.

It's a good solution to that particular problem; unfortunately it's the wrong problem.

  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


93 posted 07-23-2009 08:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Senator Clinton's attempt to get some health reform through was torpedoed almost 15 years ago.

True enough. Billy gave Hillary the assignment of fixing the health care system and she came up with  zilch. It was definitely torpedoed.....by her ineptitude.

The number of people covered and the quality of their coverage dropped like a lead shot.

I'm assuming you have figures to back that up, Bob?  By the way, if it is so bad, why do the overwhelming majority of the public state they are satisfied with their current coverage?

and that the President is an idiot for wanting to get something done about this in the near future.  

Near future, Bob? Don't be so inexact. Obama wants something done NOW -IMMEDIATELY. Forget his words from before about wanting it done by the end of his first term. He doesn't want Congress to go home without passing it. He does not want time for discussion. He does not want time for the American people to get a closer look at it. He does not want people pressing him on where the money will come from or what the details are. He wants it rammed through before the public can object loudly enough. Yes, I guess those evil Republicans are being unreasonable by  wanting to give some thought to what will put the country further mired in the debt Obama has enslaved our future generations with. They should roll over on their backs so that OBama can pat their bellies and say "Good doggies" like he did to the Democrats to get the stimulus bill passed and the cap and trade through the House.

The problem is that this won't be so easy. The public has already gotten a glimpse of what he wants to do and the congressmen know that. Congressmen are not annointed, they are elected and, as much as they want a pat on the head from their master, they know they have to face the people who are responsible for allowing them to keep their jobs. Quite the dilemma, no?  Add to that the fact that some of the Democratic congressmen do not believe that the bill is the right way to reform the health care system because they actually DO hold the concerns and welfare of the people they represent at a high level, and Obama has a problem on his hands.

SOmehting must be done does not mean anything must be done, Bob. You don't run your own personal life that way, do you? Do you run your finances that way? If you were to have a family of six, would you run out and get a two-seater Corvette just because you need transportation? No, you would choose the type of vehicle best suited to your family needs and also one which you could afford. The President should show the same reasoning in dealing with his family - the United States.

Obama does things without thinking anything through. He simply demands they be done immediately. The stimulus is just that way, isn't it? It has done nothing beneficial to the country like Obama said it would. It hasn't lowered unemployment like he assured us it would. Actually, months after it's passage, over 90% of it hasn't even been used!  Guantanamo is another one. It was imperative to close the base and relocate  the people? Where? He had no idea. Two days ago the time limit expired on the date he targeted to have the base shut down because no one STILL knows what to do with the people. Now a six month extension to that action has been initiated. If they don't know what to do in six months, assuredly there will be ANOTHER extension granted. The man just acts without thinking.

If it makes you feel clever to use the sarcasm toward the Republicans, go ahead. Regardless of what grounds your comments cover, the fact remains that Obama is trying to shove his un-thought-out palns through congress under the radar of the American people...and this time this doesn't appear to be working so well for him...thank the Lord.

  
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


94 posted 07-23-2009 11:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Why should you be the only one able to be sarcastic, Mike?  Is it supposed to be something only Republicans can be?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


95 posted 07-23-2009 11:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! No, Bob....as I said, if it makes you feel clever to do it, go ahead. I don't see where that statement means I should be the only one   Enjoy yourself, by all means.

At least there was SOMETHING in my reply for you to respond to.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


96 posted 07-24-2009 01:28 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/obamas_health_care_news_conference.html
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


97 posted 07-24-2009 02:25 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So, Mike, following the 15 years or Republican deliberation, what [are the proposals that are the fruits of those years of thought?  Beyond the health care insurance mess we now how, I mean.  And, other than trying to shoot down the party that is at least trying to help the the public rather than continue to funnel billions of extra profit into the coffers of insurance companies. what are the solutions you propose.

     I mean other than taking more time to give the insurance companies more money and trying to scare the public into continuing to do do.  Like you did last time, in destroying Senator Clinton's health plan.

     Giving the Insurance Companies more money, killing the public by denying them health care, and then trying to blame them for it — a tactic known in social work circles as "Blame the Victim" — has worked fairly well for you so far.  From what I see you're writing now, it seems that the Republican tactic seems to be to try it again.  If you can smear the other guys badly enough, maybe you can get the public to ignore the facts.

     You might try going with folks other than Mr. Hennessey, for example, and trying to go for folks who are non-partisan in their research efforts.  

     Sorry.  I don't know what came over me.  
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


98 posted 07-24-2009 03:30 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          You should check Local Rebel's reference above.  

     He has a real loyalty to the truth, even when it doesn't read the way a Liberal thinks it should.  The way I, at least, would like it to read.

     I have to revise some of my own thinking; which parts, I'm not yet clear about.

     Thanks for your attention here.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

    
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


99 posted 07-24-2009 07:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Like you did last time, in destroying Senator Clinton's health plan.

I can assure you, Bob, I had nothing to do with destroying her health plan. I was playing golf at the time.   There wasn't much of a health plan to destroy. Being the wife of a president did not exactly qualify her to create a new health plan for the country and she lived up to those non-qualifications very well.

killing the public by denying them health care  I think someone's veneer is cracking, I mean, besides Obama's.

Bob, you are still talking apples and oranges here. Let me repeat what I have said several times, the fact that the system needs to be revamped is not in question. The HOW is. The ramming a mediocre plan which will add to the incredible deficit of  Obama's spending spree since he took office, and be detrimental to the care given the public is. You insist on avoiding that issue. I'll repeat once again....needing to do SOMETHING does not mean needing to do ANYTHING, and especially it doesn't mean needing to do anything IMMEDIATELY.  Obama wants to get as much passed as possible while he still has popularity on his side, which he can see waning. That's not a good enough reason to kill off the elderly, which he will do under  his plan.

Check out what his wife did to the U of Chicago Medical Center. Check out Hawaii's brave new world attempt at universal health care and see how that worked out. Then multiply both by a few million and you will  get what Obama's plan for the country is.

btw, I did check out LR's link and it has a lot of truth in it. Did YOU understand what it said?  
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> How to Lie Without Lying   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors