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Balladeer
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100 posted 07-05-2009 09:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There was no mention of the cap and trade bill in your initial posting. Actually, Bob, it is easy to point out at least half a dozen references to the bill in my original posting. There are also a couple of dozen replies throughout the thread that discuss the cap and trade bill in their entirety. Here are a few where I kept asking the same questions...

Getting back to the main topic of this thread, does it seem reasonable that they would tell a senior official who had worked there for almost four decades to shut his mouth and have no contact with any "outsiders" because his findings would put the EPA in a bad light and hurt the chances of the passage of Obama's bill?   response 5

Why does it need to be done NOW? With all of the urgency Obama has attached to it? With all of the hoops Pelosi jumped through to get it done? With unemployment through the roof? With the housing market still in dire straits? Neither you or your links have answered that question, which I expected. response 13

Let's go in another direction and assume they cannot raise the prices on their services, either because the public will not buy them or that, by that time, Obama has force-fed a law through his congress, forbidding them to do so. What then? Do they (1) works at a loss until they go under,(2)outsource their labor or production needs to other countries or (3) cut back and lay off employees?  response 63

If you read the replies in this thread and did not get the picture that the cap and trade bill was an integral part of it, then I don;t know what else to say. Carlin, the person who caused this thread to be created, was told that his report was being squashed because it reflected unfavorably on the organization and may have adverse effects to the passage of  the cap and  trade bill being  voted on. All of the comments about the House, Pelosi, Obama ramming the bill through the House, the congressmen not even reading it before passing it........that was ALL related to the cap and trade bill. I have no idea how you missed it or the many times (so many that I got grinch nauseated) that  I asked  the same question about the  timing  of the vote on the cap and trade bill.


     Why do you simply pretend I did not and do not offer any explanations?
     Am I the invisible man?
     Am I beneath your notice?
     Did you think that I make no sense?  


It seems, Bob, that you are going to be insulted by me regardless of what I say and that's a shame since I have not tried to do so. When I DO try to insult someone they know it beyond the shadow of  a doubt but you seem to get that feeling through some  inference or deductive theory I'm unable to follow. You made a response that the time for Obama to pass bills regulating carbon dioxide (cap and trade) was now. I continued to ask why now? I got no responses about why now? It's that simple.

If you did not realize we were all talking about the passage of the cap and trade bill while you were talking only about global warming, then the must be where you condusion is. I will apologize....again.

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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101 posted 07-06-2009 03:55 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

quote:

    Why do you simply pretend I did not and do not offer any explanations?
     Am I the invisible man?
     Am I beneath your notice?
     Did you think that I make no sense?  



     This is not bad.  You at least noted that I objected to having my answers to your questions ignored.  This is progress.

     The next step would be for you to notice what the answers were.

     Once you notice what the answers were, and respond to them, the stuff that you're suggesting about the cap and trade might actually be be worth a shot.  But we really do need to get used to talking back and forth, first, and not changing the subject on each other.  I'm not primarily interested in counting up grudges.  I like you, I learn stuff from you, and at times I even agree with you.  It simply seems to work better when we talk back and forth on the same subject.

     You had suggested that people hadn't answered your question about why global warming was important, and why we should do something about it, and why we should do something about it now.  I've been trying to give you a straightforward answer on those questions for a while now, so that you can consider the answers and think about them and offer the thoughtful response that I know you have in you.

     We should then be able to move the discussion on to either more details or points of disagreement or to patting each other on the back or whatever.  I do have stuff to say about the gentleman who made the comments on the E.P.A. position paper.  But unless we get some sort of understanding about this stuff first, it seems that it would simply be changing the subject without getting some of the basics settled first.

     I'm simply in this case insisting on answering the questions that you insist on asking.  

     Why not respond to the fact that I'm making a good faith effort to give you exactly what you requested without any confusion or bull remainders?

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Huan Yi
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Waukegan


102 posted 07-06-2009 01:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Dear Bob,

If Japan, which was atom bombed
and is earthquake prone, can handle nuclear power I would hope we could do as well.
Even France is more grown up about the issue.  You can't argue dire need and yet
leave nuclear power out of the conversation.

.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


103 posted 07-06-2009 02:16 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Until you can point to an edifice in human history that has lasted for 12,000 years John, then you can't say that nuclear energy is safe.

To say that we can't go without it is factually incorrect.

100 miles x 100 miles of desert land in Nevada can supply all our electricity needs with very simply implemented thermal solar energy.  The U.S. has enough wind power to supply 16x our current electricity consumption.  Why bother with nuclear?

Especially speaking from a capitalism standpoint -- no nuclear plant has ever paid for itself.
http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/solarenergy.aspx
Huan Yi
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Waukegan


104 posted 07-06-2009 05:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"100 miles x 100 miles of desert land in Nevada can supply all our electricity needs with very simply implemented thermal solar energy."

So why hasn't anyone done it already?
I can't imagine, if it is that simple
and there was money in it, no one would
have tried.


.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


105 posted 07-06-2009 05:40 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear John,

         "Can handle" is the phrase you use.  I would suggest to you that the verb you want is "uses," since "can handle" suggests that Japan has dealt with the issues I mentioned in a useful way.  I'd be interested to know how they've dealt with disposal of nuclear waste, for example, and what they've done with antiquated nuclear facilities whose parts have become a bit brittle due to constant exposure to radiation.

     While Japan is formally a non-militarized nation, and they do not, formally, formally have what we would consider an army, Do you think it possible that the Japanese may have used their domestic power plants to have, say, produced enough nuclear material to have developed an atomic arsenal?  Do you think this possibility is a stabilizing or destabilizing force for that region and the world.

     I would suggest to you that if you want a cheap and reliable source of power, you might check out some of the discussion in the solar power section.  The upside is not as steep, the downside is much much better.  It's a set of options that could cut your electric bill, potentially, by a great deal.  You'd save the difference on a monthly basis, sometimes more, sometimes less.

     You wouldn't have to pay for the construction and amortization of expensive nuclear power plants.  See LR's cogent comment, above.  You wouldn't have to see your power company put on a campaign to deregulate  by promising an almost instant savings of twenty percent, only to jack up rates close to three hundred percent as they apparently did in San Diego here a few years back.
You would have your own power source, and buy only whatever extra you needed.

     You might even be in a position of being able to sell some excess back to the power company, though I wouldn't bet on them allowing you to make a profit on it, after seeing the way they've worked things thus far.

     Heaven forfend that you actually be able to do it yourself for a reasonable amount of money.

     As for France, I tend to like the French folks I've met.  I think they made the best decision they thought that the information in 1957 offered them.  They then used it to both produce power and a Force de Frappe.  Of the two elements of the decision, I believe that the second part was the most compelling for the Gaullist government at the time.  They were still stinging at the way they'd been treated by the Russians, the Americans and the English during WWII, and they wanted to prove themselves both powerful enough and independent enough not to need NATO.  The decision was not one made on the basis of how to generate electrical power alone.  Many other sorts of power came into the picture.  The war with Algeria was underway, and this seemed like an excellent decision for the French at the time.

     To pretend that the decision was the simple one you characterize it as being, John, is over-simplification to the point of deception.  To suggest the decision isn't one with considerable difficulty to it now (I had been going to say "fallout") is also an oversimplification.

     I will say that the nuclear power industry is a useful thing to have for the nuclear weapons industry as a source of raw materiel.  In a world where there may already be too many of the things, do we really want to encourage the possibility of more?

     Otherwise, gee, what could be nicer?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

     As to your immediately preceding posting, I can just imagine the warmth and approval with which you'd greet such a proposal, and with which you'd welcome it, and with which you'd support it every step of the way.

     That's one of the reasons.

     I can hardly imagine getting you to research a heat pump or a solar array.  Perhaps you're willing to read the posting that LR offered on the Solar Thread?

     Check out some of the technology that's available for helping solve some of these problems without dumping billions not only into nuclear power plants, but into the pockets of the deregulated utilities who are charging you to build them.  Lots of potential downside to these plants.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


106 posted 07-06-2009 07:31 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Bob,


"100 miles x 100 miles of desert land in Nevada can supply all our electricity needs with very simply implemented thermal solar energy."

So why hasn't anyone done it already?
I can't imagine, if it is that simple
and there was money in it, no one would
have tried.

Same question to you.
.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


108 posted 07-06-2009 09:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear John,

         It seems possible we crossed in transit here.  If so, forgive me for reposting the end of my post # 105, which anticipates and offers an answer to your last posting.

quote:


     As to your immediately preceding posting, I can just imagine the warmth and approval with which you'd greet such a proposal, and with which you'd welcome it, and with which you'd support it every step of the way.

     That's one of the reasons.

     I can hardly imagine getting you to research a heat pump or a solar array.  Perhaps you're willing to read the posting that LR offered on the Solar Thread?

     Check out some of the technology that's available for helping solve some of these problems without dumping billions not only into nuclear power plants, but into the pockets of the deregulated utilities who are charging you to build them.  Lots of potential downside to these plants.




     Local Rebel has, as usual, displayed some more cogent responses than I might ever offer.

Yours,

Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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109 posted 07-07-2009 06:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I listened to a T. Boone Pickens interview today and he claims to have lost a little enthusiasm over wind power, although he still considers it viable. His main push now is for natural gas with it's extremely cheap price tag and the large glut of it we have....sounds reasonable to me.

...and we wouldn't need a cap and trade bill, either.
Ron
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110 posted 07-07-2009 06:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Great idea, Mike.

Cheap price. Large glut. Sounds good.

Oh, wait, I was thinking of oil when you and I were first learning to drive. What was it, about 22 cents a gallon back then?  

Does it really sound reasonable, Mike, to turn from one non-renewable fossil fuel we've almost exhausted to another non-renewable fossil fuel we haven't exhausted yet? Natural gas might be a viable stop-gap, but it's still just a stop-gap. We need to do more than re-tool for something else we'll eventually deplete.
Balladeer
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111 posted 07-07-2009 07:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

From what I know about it, there wouldn't be a depletion of it for a very, very,very long time. We have natural gas stored all over  the country and a wealth of it not even tapped. Believe me, I know.

We have natural gas wells in Oklahoma that are not being worked. A couple of months ago we called the the section of the Oklahoma government dealing is these issues and were told there is so much natural gas stored around the country, no one is interested is more right now. It was something about hedge funds using natural gas as backups or some other things I didn't understand very well but it is being pumped out of Oklahoma over 500 miles away for storage. All of the FedEx trucks in Oklahoma run on natural gas. Apparently, natural gas will last much longer than oil ever thought of. I can't discount the argument for using it as being something that will eventually run out. Eventually, the nearest galaxy will collide with ours with disasterous results, according to experts. So should we not do anything then?
Ron
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112 posted 07-07-2009 09:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Honestly, Mike, I don't know how much natural gas there is in the ground. You might be right and maybe it'll stay cheap and plentiful for the next thousand years. I only know that we can't ever make more. And while we can't do anything about the nearest galaxy hitting us with a body check, we can make conscious, long-term plans about our future energy sources.
Bob K
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113 posted 07-07-2009 09:39 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,


     While Natural Gas is billed as a far cleaner fuel than oil and such, it is still a hydrocarbon.  There are ways of using it, such as fuel cells, that may enable it to be used very efficiently indeed.  I think it may be a very useful help in reaching a solution to some of the issues of environmental degradation and global population growth, and the continual problem of addressing population pressure and resource availability.

     Perhaps with appropriate technology, natural gas might prove very useful indeed.

     Part of the problem with natural gas that I've experienced, having lived in some of the colder climates is that we are hostage to fluctuations in the somewhat unregulated market, which has in the past at least, made this plentiful resource at times more expensive than oil heat.  This is due to speculation, as far as I understand it, in the market supply, and also to the dangerousness of the fuel in itself.  A tanker of LNG in the harbor of a major port is often thought of as being as dangerous in terms of potential explosive damage as an atomic bomb of moderate though not humongous size.  

     Use of LNG makes large areas of the country terrorist vulnerable in ways that, previously, they may not have been.  This needs to be considered in considering the adaptation LNG for wider use in population dense areas.  It certainly does not rule it out.  It should be considered.

     There is probably more potential profit to be made from LNG than from wind power.

     The use of Stirling engines might also be considered.  Stirling engines use heat differential as fuel to run a piston engine.  They have been around since 1816.  They don't produce as much power as rapidly as internal combustion engines, but then they don't need to.  If I understand the information that I've been looking at correctly (check out the Wikipedia article for an overview)
you could stick one end of a Stirling Engine in a place that collects heat during the daytime and slowly  releases it at night, like a sun exposed wall of sufficient size, and allow the other side to stick into, say, a cool basement room.  The energy between the two, the heat and the cold, could produce a decent amount of electricity.  How much would depend on the size of the engine and the decency of the engineering.  Apparently the Swedes were using Stirling Engines for electric power for at least some functions on their submarines.  Did that include propulsion?  That, I don't know.  

     I do know I want to know more about Stirling Engines.  They don't sound terribly efficient; but they don't sound terribly dangerous to the environment either, and they sound as though they might be cheap to run for house heating and power.  Wouldn't that be efficient?  Wouldn't that be nice?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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114 posted 07-07-2009 09:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

True enough, Ron. We can, however, make short-term plans enroute to long term plans. Right now we have a dependence on oil with prices set by others (and we can even throw in the environmental issues). We have an alternative source of fuel that is cleaner, cheaper and in abundance. I find it difficult to present the argument not to use it because it will be gone one day in the far future. By that time we  may well have come up with another solution. Right now we don't seem to have one that fits the bill as well.  
Balladeer
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115 posted 07-07-2009 09:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, it would, Bob. I hadn't heard of those engines but I'll enjoy looking them up.

As far as price fluctuations of natural gas, that's what we are held to now by the turbanned gentlemen and we have no say in it whatsoever.
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


116 posted 07-07-2009 10:56 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm certain that we shall never be short of gas around here.

But just in case -- we should hurry up and use it all before it's gone.  We should save the sun and wind till we really need them.  

Really though -- why should we burn these wonderfully useful molecules when we don't need to?  There are so many other applications.  I can see the conversation with our grandchildren one day ---

"What did you guys do with all those molecules we could have used to make drugs, fertilize food, make plastics, and...."

"Oh, we burned them."

Many thanks to all, Ron, Bob, John, Mike, Denise, Ess, Craig,
Balladeer
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117 posted 07-07-2009 11:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nah, our grandchildren will be too busy working three jobs to pay of the debt they got saddled with. If there's any question from them at all, it will be more on the lines of, "What the hell were you bozos thinking???"

Sorry to interrupt your attempts at sarcasm, LR. Feel free to continue    
 
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