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Local Rebel
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75 posted 07-04-2009 06:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

http://saveourwetlands.org/globalwarming.htm

gotta go throw some carbon into the atmosphere with my grill and then blow stuff up....

happy 4th ya'll  
Balladeer
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76 posted 07-04-2009 06:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

showing that global warming probably caused the "Great Dying".

Wow! So much for all of those idiots with their research indicating meteor strikes being the cause. Whoda thunk that those dinosaurs drove SUV's and  had so many coal factories?

If all that happened without us. it would seem we have little chance of stopping it again! We're doomed!

Have fun shootin' off your...fireworks, LR.

Huan Yi
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77 posted 07-04-2009 08:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There are projected to be nine billion
people on the planet by 2050, the vast
majority in the third world, burning
whatever they can to cook their food,
have light at night, and keep warm.

Stop that.
Good luck.


.
Bob K
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78 posted 07-04-2009 11:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mike,

          In response to your question, let's try, say, here:

quote:
Mike:

Really, Bob? You are comparing the evidence presented of man-made global warming to a poll then? The question begged to be asked is..if there is no prediction of x amount in y amount of time, then how do you come up with the statement of "The time is now"? With all due respect, your last response is simply a dance to avoid the questions.




     This would be an insult since it suggests I am uninformed enough not to know how to evaluate scientific studies, and that I wouldn't understand confidence intervals, and standard deviations and the standard elements of scientific evaluation.  I may be rusty, but I have a fairly decent idea when folks are trying to pass off junk science as the real thing.

     I've had a fairly good look at the science that you've been telling me you've based your thinking upon.

     Tell me what you think of it as science, not what people tell you that you should think of it as science.  Try at least reviewing the Wikipedia article.  Try reading The Republican War on Science.  If I can read The War of The World with its right wing slant and learn from it, why can't you learn from something that actually has a left wing slant that comes from its under-criticism of the Democrats and not from falsifying the facts about the Republicans?

     You don't need to.  You don't have to.  You simply might gain from it.

     And which are the questions that you're speaking about?  Specifically?  The more direct you can be, the better an answer I can attempt to offer.  I don't pretend to know anything about cap and trade.  At this point my attentions are elsewhere, and you'll probably have to look elsewhere for those answers.

     Calling my attempts to speak with you "a dance," by the way, qualifies to me as another insult.  If I don't want to talk with you about something, all I need do is say, I don't want to talk about that or I don't know anything about that.  I was never very good at tap-dancing, and I could never keep my lies straight when I tried lying as I kid.  I always ended up looking like an idiot.

quote:


[H]ow do you come up with the statement of "The time is now"?

[/i]

     Looking at population growth figures, thinking about fresh water availability and food availability and thinking about what happens with non-populations we've studied under similar conditions.  While Malthus may have had the exact data wrong, I suspect that he had some of the basic ideas right, and growth of population against the diminishing availability of resources does appear to suggest a crunch point approaching.  Do the research and do the graphing yourself.  Huan Yi's pithy comment below is not well developed.  It is also very suggestive.

     I don't know if that's enough of an answer to your question.  I suspect it's not enough to convince you.  Waiting for divine intervention, unless it's taking charge and making a difference ourselves, seems to be something that we should not count on.  Indeed, taking charge and doing something wholeheartedly, happily, and compassionately is something that approaches the miraculous from where I sit today.
[quote]
If there is no valid prediction, how does Obama claim that THIS is the time to raise taxes on an already suffering economy for the sake of the planet? And I would appreciate an answer to the other questions some time. Will what America cuts back on offset what Russia, China, India, etc won't? Would your answer be that every little bit helps? Americans are going to go further into debt at a critical point because every little bit helps?



     There is a kind of family therapy that is called Solution Focused Therapy.

     There is a very helpful style of reasoning that goes with it that cuts through a lot of the stalling that people use to stay crazy.  The therapy doesn't care who's to blame or who started the mess.  It's not really all that important to solving the problem (they say).  The therapist is trained to ask the clients, if this problem were solved in a year, What would You be doing differently.

     Any attempt for the client to say that the other party had to do something first, would be rejected.  The reasoning is this.  If you wait for somebody else to change first, you are not in control of your behavior.  Somebody else is.  You want to be in charge.

     So — we are Americans.  How much of your fate do you want the Chinese or the Russians or the Indians to have control over, and how much of it do you want to steer?  As an American, I figure that it's always better if I'm in charge of my fate.  

     Maybe you figure differently.  Anyway, that's my answer.  If we start running things, and changes start to happen, other people will want to be part of the action, if only to complain.  We may even be able to get them to foot part of the bill.  If we do nothing, either nothing happens, or we march to somebody else's drum.

quote:


Normally when one declares something dangerous one uses percentages and amounts to warn and verify.




     Nope.  That would be the logical thing to do, I grant you.  This is the way people like to pretend they make decisions.  We don't do this about rattlesnakes and we don't do this about weapons of mass destruction, do we?
In fact, it's been my experience that this is exactly how we avoid making decisions.

     But perhaps you could set me straight on this.  News about the drugs you've mentioned has been available for yours.  Liver toxicity has been an issue for at least 20 years that I know about.  Most drugs also have well set out toxicity levels, above which the dosage is fatal, and they are available at most poison control centers.  The fact that most people don't read the drug precautions folder suggests that people are more foolish than they should be.

     Sad to say, I have obligations that force me to stop now before I'm finished.  Best wishes.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

PS.  Of course you can't find an example of being insulting to me, Mike.  I don't think you do it on purpose; and I don't really think you have a purposefully malicious bone in your body.  It simply pops out every now and again.  I'm too touchy myself sometimes, and I'm sorry for that.
    

Local Rebel
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79 posted 07-04-2009 11:56 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

That's the thing about science Mike -- in the face of new evidence scientists change their opinions and hypothesis.  Over time better evidence and improved methods and technology lead us toward better understanding.

Take a look, for example, at the difference between 2002 and 2007:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/28jan_extinction.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071025091047.htm

As these stories illustrate -- the universe is a dangerous place and our existence in it is precarious.  With all of the things that can go wrong without our help -- why should we be voluntarily tipping the balance?

Do we merely throw up our hands and say 'why bother?' as John would seem to have it?  Or do we do the things that we can do?

But, this isn't really a discussion about science is it?  
Balladeer
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80 posted 07-05-2009 12:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Very interesting point, LR. no, it is about the question I have asked multiple times here without getting a rational answer...why right now? Why Obama's great push to get his cap and trade bill signed IMMEDIATELY, no matter if one one copy was given to the House, no matter that they didn't have time to read it before voting....it has to be passed NOW!, just like the stimulus had to be passed IMMEDIATELY so those shovel-ready jobs could get going and unemployment being capped at not more than 8% due to it's passage.

If you were to get this kind of bum's rush over any other aspect of your life, you would reject it. If you had a car salesman, insurance salesman or anyone else saying "Sign now! Dont worry about reading it. Don;t worry about the details, don't worry about the cost, just SIGN", you would show them the door.

Here we have a bill that will result in an incredible product and tax hike, a bill guaranteed to create more unemployment over a topic that scientists claim will take decades to resolve....and a president who has already put us in more debt than any previous president would even have dared to, screaming I WANT IT PASSED NOW! with utter disregard over what it will do to an already-ailing economy.

Where does he think he is....in chicago?

Grinch
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81 posted 07-05-2009 06:37 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Have I suddenly wandered into the online version of the film “Groundhog Day”?

You seem to be regurgitating the same questions at regular intervals Mike then throwing out a couple of sarcastic one-liners to avoid discussing the opinions given before repeating the questions as if the previous posts don’t exist.

It’s entertaining for the first couple of times around but it gets a little monotonous after a while – a bit like the film really.

I’m off to read a book.

Have fun.

Denise
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82 posted 07-05-2009 08:59 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If someone would just answer the question that was asked it wouldn't have to be repeated.

There is no need for it to be passed right now, other than the lust for more power by Congress and Obama, in my opinion.
Balladeer
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83 posted 07-05-2009 09:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're right, grinch. I'm asking  the same question...because I get no straightforward answer to it. I get a lot of talking around the answer, I get a lot of links and quotes that point to different areas of global warming and do not address my simple question. I get novellas that discuss everything from the world trade center to junk science but no answer. I get an amount of links that would make Jimmy Dean cringe with envy with the X-Files trademark line "The Truth is Out There" but no straightforward answer. I get justifications like the comparison of a plane faced with imminent crashing, talks about it being a good arrow to have in one's quiver (as if somehow Russia, China, India would quiver at our quiver), statements of how it would be good for the United States to take the lead,...but no answer with regard to the immediacy of passage of a bill that would be detrimental to all Americans at this time of economic crisis....and I will keep asking until someone decides to give a straight answer or until people get so tired of evading it they simply go away to read a book or something.

Btw, if that's really what you are going to do, I suggest Atlas Shrugged
Grinch
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84 posted 07-05-2009 09:47 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Here’s your answer Mike, I gave it you a while back.


The consensus of opinion is that man has impacted on the earth’s climate and that there is a high probability that this will have major implications in the next 50-100 years unless we act now in a bid to slow and ultimately stabilise average global temperature.


Atlas Shrugged?

Hmm..That gives me an idea.

Would it sway your opinion if, say, 160 of the CEO’s of the largest companies in the US  announced that we need to do something and we need to do it RIGHT NOW?

If such a group constituted say 30% of the value of the stock market and paid 50% of all the corporate tax levied by the Government would their opinion carry some weight?

What if that group included companies that have previously resisted even the idea that climate change was a problem – Exxon and BP for instance? Would that impress you?

Leave it with me - I'll see what I can do.

Balladeer
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85 posted 07-05-2009 10:23 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The consensus of opinion is that man has impacted on the earth’s climate and that there is a high probability that this will have major implications in the next 50-100 years unless we act now in a bid to slow and ultimately stabilise average global temperature.

Consesus of opinion - high probablilty - next 50-100 years.....THAT is your answer to why the bill needs to be passed immediately? When this consensus of opinion refers to acting NOW does it mean this week, this month, or whatever time frame Obama dictates? Is next year too late? According to Obama, his stimulus package is going to cure our economic position so why not wait until the country recovers a little from this recession before implementing more controls and taxes.....unless perhaps he is having second thoughts about how effective his stimulus package will be? (perhaps the rise of unemployment to a figure far above what he assured us would not happen with his plan is a hint). Are there any formulas to dictate that there must be immediate action? Is there some kind of percentage we can apply to this logic? Can some scientist you admire and pay attention to claim something like "Due to this amount of carbon dioxide that man is releasing in the atmosphere every year based on our figures, I feel that next year or the year after or 5 years after that will be too late to save the planet"? Scientists, climatologists, and the like don't necessarily use the word "now" like average people do. They are studying hundreds, even thousands of years, and "now" to them could mean this particular area of the planet's history. not necessarily July 15th. If the "high probability of major implications in the next 50-100 years" is your answer, then I thank you for attempting to answer it, regardless of my disagreement with it. Actually, I think it proved my point more than yours.

Balladeer
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86 posted 07-05-2009 10:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Would it sway your opinion if, say, 160 of the CEO’s of the largest companies in the US  announced that we need to do something and we need to do it RIGHT NOW?

It would depend on what the "something" was, what topic was referred to , and what facts they had to validate their claim...pardon me if I don't travel down the sideroads with you, grinch. It's a beautiful Sunday, the sun is shining, the carbon dioxide is glowing, and the golf courses are calling my name

Let's make those 160 CEO's economists, who claim that the country is spending itself into oblivion, that they point to the figures and the increase and national debt, that they look at the interest that will be added on to the 2.2 trillion dollars the US will have to borrow, over and above the current deficit and they warn that our immediate future generations will be saddled under a debt that will affect their lives in a very detrimental way. Let them claim that the spending must be stopped NOW to avoid hte possibility and even probability of a bankrupt country....would you believe them and the actual figures they produce to back up their claims?

If you support the immediate passage of the cap and trade bill then the answer is....obviously not.
Essorant
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87 posted 07-05-2009 10:58 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Maybe we will eventually evolve into a new animal in conjunction with these climate changes to deal with them better.  I hope so    

Ron
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88 posted 07-05-2009 11:13 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

You sound a lot like a smoker, Mike, who knows the cigarettes are bad for him -- but also knows they won't kill him for at least a few more decades. There's plenty of time to quit. No need to go through all that pain right now.

You're absolutely right, of course, that we don't need to do it now. It would have been much less painful to do it during one of the previous administrations, either Clinton's or Bush's, when energy costs were lower and our economy was in much better shape. Sadly, they came up with excuses and rationalizations no less compelling than yours. There's plenty of time to quit. No need to go through all that pain right now.

Why now? Why the seeming bum's rush?

Personally, I don't think it's so much a grab for power as it is an exercise of power. The Democrats have a lot of political clout right now, a gift they received from the last administration. I suspect Obama is pushing through every important item he can as fast as he can because he knows Bush's legacy won't last forever. He wants to strike while the poker he was handed is still hot.

In the early Nineties, my dad was diagnosed with prostrate cancer just a few days before he and my mom were scheduled to drive their motor home to Louisiana, where my dad was born and raised. They made that trip pretty much every year, but this one was more important than most. Dad's mom was in poor health and it would likely be the last time Dad would be able to see her alive.

The doctors told him to go.

It was a very non-aggressive form of cancer, they said, and they felt they had caught it early. Delaying radiation for a month or so wouldn't make any big difference. Plenty of time for treatment. No need to go through all that inconvenience right now.

Five years later, the cancer had spread from the prostrate to the bones.

When faced with an overwhelming probability for immediate inconvenience versus even the remote possibility of a painful and lingering death, the choice really shouldn't be all that hard.

Some people are asking, "Why now?"

Some, however, are asking the more salient, "If not now, WHEN?"


Balladeer
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89 posted 07-05-2009 11:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, thank you for pointing out what you considered to be insults from me. I certainly did not mean them as such and I assure you I will be more careful with my wording in future responses, so as not to offend you.

No I cannot not accept your "Solution Focused Therapy" as an answer to the immediacy Obama insists on...but that's ok. If that's your answer, then that's your answer.

As far as your acknowledging you know nothing about the cap and trade bill, it makes it a little difficult to discuss it and Obama's call for the immediacy of implementing it. It also makes your call of implementing it now puzzling.

Still curious as to how much newspaper or press coverage the announcement of the cap and trade vote got over there in California. One would think, with your lack of knowledge of it, not much.

Enjoy your Sunday
Balladeer
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90 posted 07-05-2009 11:51 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Personally, I don't think it's so much a grab for power as it is an exercise of power. The Democrats have a lot of political clout right now, a gift they received from the last administration. I suspect Obama is pushing through every important item he can as fast as he can because he knows Bush's legacy won't last forever. He wants to strike while the poker he was handed is still hot.

Thank you, Ron. That is the most straightforward and intelligent reply I've gotten in this entire thread. I also agree that humans have a proclivity for using the "we can do it later" philosophy. I used it in a couple of my divorces (you may have, too )

Your father's story is a sad one, to be sure, but still deals with a much smaller time frame, like LR's plane crash. Also, if he had not delayed that treatment for a month, does that mean the cancer would not have spread five years later? That's something we can never know. Also, there was absolutely no doubt he had cancer while, in this case, there is a huge amount of doubt regarding man-made global warming and the supposed disasterous effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, causing the deaths of millions and eventual destruction of the planet.

I will agree with you that it's better to be safe than sorry. I don't advocate putting it off just because "we can get around to it later", but because we are in a horrible economic situation in which higher prices and more taxes will create much more of a hardship on the populace than the carbon dioxide being used as the "scare" word of the day. There IS a valid reason to delay it until a less precarous time. Obama needs to trim a few miles off his power trip and think a little more about the effects of his policies and demands on the people he supposed to be representing the best interests of.

If we ever get through this economic situation onto firmer ground, I will agree with you and join you in your chant of WHEN? Until then, however, this is not the  right  time.
Grinch
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91 posted 07-05-2009 12:02 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Maybe you’re right Mike, maybe the answer is to ignore the problem, there are after all a fair number of climate experts who contend that it’s already too late to reverse the effect man has had on global warming. Perhaps the best course of action is to save the expense, live for today and wait to see who was right.

Ron
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92 posted 07-05-2009 01:08 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Also, there was absolutely no doubt he had cancer while, in this case, there is a huge amount of doubt regarding man-made global warming and the supposed disasterous effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, causing the deaths of millions and eventual destruction of the planet.

There may be doubt in your mind, Mike. Others appear to be fairly convinced.

I'm not sure it really matters, though.

Anything we do today to curtail the effects of burning fossil fuels is going to happen anyway when those fossil fuels run out. We can suck it up and pay the price for a hundred years of free-rolling now, or we can push that price off on our kids. The bill is going to come due no matter what we do. And I'm sorry, but there will never be a good time, a less precarious time, a time when it doesn't hurt like hell.

Maybe this whole climate change thingy really is just a hoax, a sham, a pretend-danger so we can get scared enough to actually do something that might, shudder, be a little painful or inconvenient. This country will not survive unless we better manage our dependence on fossil fuel. We clearly haven't been doing a very good job of that. You think we're facing precarious times now? We ain't seen nothing yet.

I think it is absolutely vital that we find alternative fuels sources.

In a world dominated by capitalism, that isn't going to happen so long as fossil fuels remain cheaper than any and all alternatives. If we let nature take its course, there will eventually arrive a day when it costs so much to get the fossil fuels out of the ground that alternative sources start to look attractive. Trouble is, if we wait 'til then, it'll be too late to avoid an incredibly painful upheaval, one that I think could actually destroy this country. We need to make fossil fuels more expensive today so there is an economic incentive to find and develop alternatives for our tomorrow.

I honestly don't know if global warning is a scientific fact or just a conspiracy. And you know what? I'm not sure I care.

quote:
If we ever get through this economic situation onto firmer ground, I will agree with you and join you in your chant of WHEN?

Can you give me any reason to believe that, Mike? I mean, I've been hearing much the same thing for three or four decades now, you know? While I certainly don't doubt your personal sincerity, I think you'll forgive my suspicion that it might not work out quite that way if we agree to wait. It never has before.


Denise
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93 posted 07-05-2009 05:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It seems to me that with a projected benefit (?) of only 1/10 of one degree reduction in temperature in 100 years, that maybe mankind is not a significant contributor to climate issues afterall, or the plans in this bill, with its massive price tag, impact on the economy and restrictions on personal freedoms, are not the answer.
Huan Yi
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94 posted 07-05-2009 06:04 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


.


"Maybe this whole climate change thingy really is just a hoax, a sham, a pretend-danger so we can get scared enough to actually do something that might, shudder, be a little painful or inconvenient. "


Like nuclear power?

.
Ron
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95 posted 07-05-2009 06:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It seems to me that with a projected benefit (?) of only 1/10 of one degree reduction in temperature in 100 years, that maybe mankind is not a significant contributor to climate issues afterall, or the plans in this bill, with its massive price tag, impact on the economy and restrictions on personal freedoms, are not the answer.

I don't know about the validity of your numbers, Denise, but I suspect if you're looking for The Answer you probably won't like what you find. The Answer is likely the extinction of mankind, whereupon the planet will go serenely about repairing itself for its next great experiment.

Before we get to The Answer, I think I'd like to see us try a whole lot of little answers.

quote:
Like nuclear power?

What little I know about current nuclear technologies doesn't much thrill me, John. But, at least it's not a fuel source we have to dig out of someone else's backyard? It's probably not the destiny I would choose, but it's nonetheless a destiny we can control.

Just don't expect me to put a nuclear reactor in the Miata, okay?


Balladeer
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96 posted 07-05-2009 06:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I think it is absolutely vital that we find alternative fuels sources.
In a world dominated by capitalism, that isn't going to happen so long as fossil fuels remain cheaper than any and all alternatives.


Yes, you are right, Ron, and I agree with everything in your well-thought out reply.

I wonder how many of the trillions Obama is spending is going to finding alternative fuel sources. I'm sure there must be some. I'll try to research that.

In the meantime, Obama is trying to force a bill on the public as an exercise of power will no regard for the effect it will have on the American people. I would think anyone would find that insupportable, regardless of political affiliation.

Miatas?I thought their power source was hamsters in cages!

Ron
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97 posted 07-05-2009 08:45 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Obama is trying to force a bill on the public as an exercise of power will no regard for the effect it will have on the American people.

I don't really know, Mike, but I have to suspect regard has indeed been given for both short-term effects, which clearly worry you, and possibly for long-term effects, which are what concerns me most. I'd like to think, for once, that regard for long-term finally won out over short-term.

And putting hamsters in cages would be cruel. My Miata (I bought it new in 1990!) utilizes 13-stripe ground squirrels for propulsion. Lots of them. And trust me, like most rodents, these are a highly renewable energy source.




Bob K
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98 posted 07-05-2009 08:52 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Mike,

          I was discussing Global warming.

     There was no mention of the cap and trade bill in your initial posting.  Perhaps this issue has become more important to you as the thread has gone along.  That would be understandable.  I won't pretend to knowledge or expertise I don't have.

     You weren't asking about that anyway.

     You were asking about why we needed to do something about global warming and the environment situation now.
And that was a question I DID ANSWER.

quote:

Looking at population growth figures, thinking about fresh water availability and food availability and thinking about what happens with non-[human] human populations we've studied under similar conditions.  While Malthus may have had the exact data wrong, I suspect that he had some of the basic ideas right, and growth of population against the diminishing availability of resources does appear to suggest a crunch point approaching.  Do the research and do the graphing yourself.




     Many of these populations literally die in their own waste products.  Many of them develop what are called "population sinks," where individuals turn against each other and literally tear each other apart.  If you actually read some of the references I've offered you so far, I'll even try to get you some references on these.

     Why do you simply pretend I did not and do not offer any explanations?

     Am I the invisible man?

     Am I beneath your notice?

     Did you think that I make no sense?  

     If so, say so, and we can have that discussion in e-mail.  If not, I believe I gave a solid and cogent response about why these issues need to be addressed, and why the need to be responded to now.  As to why not later as opposed to now, I would suggest to you that the expense, which is painful and outrageous now, will be geometrically more so in the future.  We had this discussion about spending during the last administration.  You said there was no problem, I said that the problem was crippling, and that if we put it off until the next election cycle (2008) it would be absolutely staggering and more than staggering.  You made fun of me.  Now you tell me it was the Democrats.  

     You could have said that then, by the way, instead of offering blanket denial.  I don't think it matters.  What mattered was the head in the sand mentality of the country in general, of the congress overall, and of The Republicans because they had the majority at the time.  I'll even blame the Democrats too, if you like, for not having sufficient guts to raise the stink that they should have.

     It's very much the same head in the sand situation now.

     There's very little gain for the party in power to spend money on environmental issues.  It gives the Republicans an enormous campaign issue in 2012.  The Democrats are taking an enormous risk, which is why the Republicans are  trying to make them pay for every inch they get.  It allows the Republicans to call the Democrats Tax and Spend Liberals once again, an enormous relief for the Republicans.  Bless 'em, let the Republicans have it.  Just don't get so much in the way of the legislation that they help flush the world and this country down the evolutionary tubes for short term political gain while they're at it.

     I've answered your question about why the legislation, and why now.  Please offer me a response about the actual things I've said instead of pretending I haven't said anything.  I would sincerely appreciate that.

Yours, Bob Kaven

     I hope you have a fine Sunday as well, Mike; and I hope Denise has had a good weekend with her family.  Best wishes to you both.


      As for the above the fold news reports, and the general stuff on the environmental news, I lament its lack of coverage as much as you do.  I think that there are few papers or magazines that don't go with, "If it bleeds it leads!" as the dictum for deciding what comes first.  Ergo, Michael Jackson, all day, every day, sad to say.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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99 posted 07-05-2009 09:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

           We don't know what to do with the reactors we already have.  We don't have a way to dispose of the nuclear waste with any high degree of safety that I know of.  Places that have such power plants end up with access to the basics of dirty bombs, which are terrorist weapons that don't require the technology of building a nuclear device.  Such plants also require long term commitments to care and safety that neither private nor governmental entities have shown the ability to provide.  Our commitment to help our friends in, say, Pakistan, doesn't mean that the government in Pakistan will always be friends of ours.  They may decide to sell the technology to their new friends in North Korea.  They may also use those peaceful reactors to build nuclear weapons, somehow.

     Gee, wouldn't it be great if one day, as Tom Lehrer one suggested, Alabama got the bomb.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
 
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