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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. Let’s assume you work for a living. All the doctors tell you with absolute certainty that you're going to die the first moment after the day your savings that allow you to live well , (which includes taking care of your own), run out. Would you still work? If yes, why? (This is related to my “What If Atlas Shrugged” question). . [This message has been edited by Huan Yi (04-25-2009 12:15 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Yikes! I have only $35 in savings, John. And my city pension will yield only 28% of my salary at age 65. So I guess I will be working until I die. My time on the beach will be restricted to a few long weekends here and there! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I don't get it. |
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Ringo 
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Well, as I dusted my savings with my recent period of unemployment, I would guess that I am going to.. well, I should be dead already, then.... Maybe I can call in to work tomorrow and tell them that to get the day off. lol Actually, John, I can't NOT work. It would (and did) drive me nuts to sit around.. and even then, I wasn't sitting around. I got stuff around the house done, I got a huge amount of writing done, I looked for employment. Regardless of the situation, I actually see me keeling over at my desk. But this one goes to eleven... |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
probably if I am able.I am 77 and still put in a full week's work. I recently cut to four days to give myself time for my home and yard and other things. so yes, I guess I would still work if able to. latearrival |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Ok So say riches fell on you out of the sky by virtue of some previously unknown now deceased relative . . . “Work” here to me is what you do only for pay. In my off time I've done things far more strenuous, (and at times dangerous), than anything involved in my job which is effort paid because of its value to others. PS the title refers to the book . . . . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Oh, okay. You mean prostitution then? I have a different definition of work, I guess. Work, to me, equates to productivity. Doesn't matter who it's for or even the final results. |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
my work is not as strenous as my yard work.There I build muscle. But in this scenerio I guess I would use the money left to me to pay my mortgage and travel more to be closer to members of my family who do not live near by. I have read Atlas Shrugged and a few of her other boooks. But I am not getting the connection here. I have no profession, unless you count mother hood. I think it applies more to those who do. latearrival |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
late arrival... I DO consider motherhood to be a profession...and one of the most important. As far as Ayn Rand is concerned, Ron's reply says it all  |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Well, I would be one of those retiring from "prostitution". I had enough of living by others' stipulations of what to do, when to do, how long, etc. both early in school and later in the workplace, for passing marks and money. If the means ever come to live my life at my own pace and doing more (including working at) what I enjoy much more , I would not hesitate to quit my job and begin a much happier life. |
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latearrival Member Ascendant
since 2003-03-21
Posts 5499Florida |
Mike that made me laugh because if it is production that counts.... I had a hand in producing six children, 13 grandchildren and five great grand children with another on the way. I can't claim much else but we do have a happy family.If that is my production then so be it. LOL |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
John, I'd still keep my day job. With the stock market the way it is, the government's current spendthrift policies, and the probable coming hyper-inflation, who knows how long my riches would last? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
late arrival, I'd guess you had more than a hand in it!  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. If God came down and told me I had no more than five years to live I’d quit my job, (which is the best I’ve ever had), in the morning. I’d go fishing write poems and go out for at least one more dive alone I would lie in my bed and read books that are of no interest to most or anyone else and if that wasn’t considered “productive” in any sense as might be transferred as value to someone else I wouldn’t care less If you’re willing to die my death I’ll let you determine some part of my life otherwise buzz off. . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Why wait for God, John? There is at least a statistical possibility that you will indeed be dead within the next five years. Why aren't you already living the life you say you would if you had that hypothetical divine guarantee? We all make choices. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Life, unless it's short, takes money . . . . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
And that, John, is certainly one choice. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Not yet Ron. Still can afford it . . . . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
No other life forms on earth pretend that they need money in order to live. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. And what lives they live . . . . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
That is true. I guess civilization is rather cornered into the use of money. Hopefully at least in Heaven we won't need money. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
You are making my earlier point for me, gentlemen. Yes, other life forms lead their lives differently. Some would say harder, some might say simpler. They don't have a choice, but you and I do. Short of walking off into the woods with a knife and a few supplies (most Marines have been trained to do exactly that, John), there are still a hundred different ways to simplify your life and live it with less need for money. People who want nice houses, nice cars, a computer and the electricity to run it, are all making choices. The need to go out and find a way to pay for those choices is the price they pay. I am absolutely convinced that anyone who wants to go fishing, write poems, and read good books can do so any time they want. They don't have to wait for God to pronounce them imminently dead. They don't need that justification. They just have to be willing to give up something else. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Oh I do the things I've listed, (except the last dive), but not all the time; that takes money. For a few years I could get away with it, but then it would be looking for plastic bottles to turn in for deposit. Walden Pond wasn't quite what it was cracked up to be. Henry went to the family house down the road at least once a week for a meal, and he wasn't out in the woods in total all that long. He mooched a lot too. . |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, `What shall we eat?' or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?' 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. " Yah, that works . . . . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
John, I don't think Jesus is saying that we won't have to work. He is saying to make your priority in life seeking God and resting in his care, because all that you need will be provided, including, I think, even the job that gives you the money in order to take care of yourself and your family. In other words, relax, you don't have to sweat it!  Also, maybe people have to determine what in their lives are really needs and what are merely wants. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
Dinesh D'souza once pointed out that skeptics, ironically, often take up the mantra of the most rabid fundamentalist, whenever the Bible itself is discussed. And so a most wooden interpretation is presented and refuted; a method that wouldn't be tolerated with any other text. Don't misunderstand; I think that far too much is meant to be taken quite literally that simply isn't, sometimes for evasive reasons. But is it reasonable to think that Jesus equated faith with idleness or a denial of the need of hard work? I would think that the epithet "carpenter's son" was more than a statement of sheer progeny. Maybe rather than using such passages to set up the false dilemma between work and passivity ... one should ask whether the text is, instead, addressing the manner and motive of one's living and 'working'. Stephen |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Stephanos When did you get that moderator star? It looks good on you |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
Probably not. I don't think it would matter to me. I would just continue on and try to do something to contribute to society. -Juju |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. "Probably not. I don't think it would matter to me. I would just continue on and try to do something to contribute to society." Why? Where is your obligation? . |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
What in the world does obligation have to do with anything, John. Are you suggesting you are currently working because you feel obligated? To what for goodness sake? What you do is a choice. If you do it out of a sense of obligation, that too is a choice. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I'd already been dead 20+ times, but I found a way back, and I learned how to live better & play more, because I'm gonna die. funny how that's sort of decided the moment of birth...or is it conception? Somebody's already paid for my ticket to this show. I'm grateful enough to try and enjoy it as much as I can with everybody else. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'm learning how to juggle. A few months ago, I made a decision to live life like I'm dying. I have never felt more alive. (And I've had some very lively moments in my life.) I'm not saying I don't wash the dishes, or do the laundry. But the change of perspective has allowed me to appreciate the opportunity to play in the bubbles.  *shrug* I get moody too. Fair winds Calm seas? and much love to you John.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
No sooner than I typed this, I got mail from a life insurance company! *totally grinnin'* |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Huan Yi, The original question is a fine one, I think. But consider that you actually are in this situation, as far as you know, aren't you. If you think you can plan for security or happiness or health, you are instead putting your trust in chance. If you put your trust in God, bless you, and I can say that I hope things turn out well for you in the end. In this life, however, the answer to prayers may often be No for reasons that we can attempt to explain to ourselves with varying amounts of success. We pretty much are in the situation you describe. Stephanos has described one healthy solution to that situation. I recommend it to everybody. I agree with his comments about "skeptics" in general, though not necessarily in particular. Indeed, I can't be sure that he meant them to apply to each particular case. I don't know that the religious option has provided an answer for you here, though. I admire Ron's appeal to personal responsibility as well, but I fear that for most people this comes down to a matter of dogma and faith as well, since most people are unwilling or unable to spend the energy and time to look at exactly how something is their responsibility in a realistic way. They are more likely to cut their actual attempt to understand what they could have done differently with some grandiose and premature acceptance of a guilt that they were not powerful enough to assume in the first place. "Yes, if I'd tried harder, France wouldn't have fallen, Mon General!" "See that you remember that, Private! Now charge that machine gun nest! The Foreign Legion is waiting for you to Redeem yourself!" Too many of us are willing to take responsibility for things that aren't our fault and not to take responsibility for things that are. Believing in personal responsibility doesn't grant us the ability to identify it correctly, or even give us the willingness to act on our understanding, should we be fortunate enough to come to the correct conclusion. And most of these decisions aren't even made consciously at all anyway. Responsibility for our actions is handy when it comes time to assign blame, however. Another place where it's handy is — once a goal is established — evaluating the success one has in living up to it on an incident by incident basis. This can be where responsibility can come into its own, as long as it's tempered by significant amounts of compassion. Indeed, I think compassion for one's self and for other's is probably the answer to the question you ask. Some work is never done, no matter what, whether you have food or not, or whether you live in a mansion or live on the street. When you stop doing that work, you have lost yourself. Sometimes you may get money for it, sometimes not. The Shakers felt that you might approach any work in the proper spirit, and I suspect they were right. They weren't bad business folk. The Buddhists call this Right Livelihood, though it's not an exclusively Buddhist concept. What do you think, Huan Yi? Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
One mistake away. Death is. All the time. Either made by us, or someone else. Just one mistake. We have to live in a sort of cognitive dissonance in relation to death all the time or else we can't ever make long-term plans. I think the problem for most is that even when they get that news that besides that one mistake away -- there is an end coming -- that this cognitive dissonance doesn't quite get turned off and most live in a maze of radiation and chemo or whatever other curative solutions are offered by doctors -- and they are trained to offer them and get rather upset if treatment is refused. I think paliative care is that undiscovered country for most. I think it's not only important to live as though we're going to die -- but to die as though we're going to die. |
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