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Confused |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
I understand that liberal politicians are all intellectuals, including President Obabama. I also understand that Republican politicians are dimwitted, especially President Bush. I even understand that since I come from a red state (Kansas) and am generally considered to be a moderate Republican that voted for President Bush, I am an ignorant, right-wing, evangelical neocon. The question I have is why I always get the impression that liberals are trying to test my credulity? When President Obama bowed to the Saudi King, the mainstream media ignored the event and instead focussed on Mrs. Obama touching the Queen. If anything was said, it was that the President did not bow, he was picking something off the floor. Give me a break. I will give the President the fact than since he had a father of the Muslim faith and spent a significant portion of his childhood in Indonesia, he instinctively bowed, much as an excommunicated cradle Catholic might instinctively kneel before the Pope. No, I am not saying he is Muslim, but subconsciously, because of his upbringing, he acted as he had been taught in his childhood. The only other logical reason is he did so on purpose, which to me shows a certain lack of intellect. Politics is as much perception as reality. The Arab world is certainly aware the President bowed to the Saudi King and takes it as a sign of subservience. Any politician would be aware of that result. I can shrug it off as a beginner's faux pas and still trying to get one's feet under themself, although a pretty stupid one. Now, after the story didn't die, and even a liberal commentator has made mention of the bow, the White House comes out and says the bow did not take place. Give me a break and don't insult what little intelligence I have as a red-stater. Euphamism may well have to be redefined as Obamaism. We don't have the war on terror anymore or terrorists. And now we have the President making a mistake and instead of saying, "my bad," that it never took place. We are beyond testing credulity and now are insulting my limited intelligence. Every day I am more amazed. [This message has been edited by Tim (04-08-2009 10:59 PM).] |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I dunno Tim. I doubt I would have bowed...but maybe he was trying to follow protocol?  <--that's as close as I get. But perhaps he was in a no-win situation--sorta like G.W. serving hotdogs to Muslim leaders? *helpless shrug* The best intentions, yanno.   I just dunno... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Tim, Democrats denying what is on video is nothing new. The press covering their back is nothing new, either...so what surprises you? That they think everyone is stupid? That shouldn't surprise you, either. |
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Stephanos
since 2000-07-31
Posts 3618Statesboro, GA, USA |
hardly a political liberal myself, I think trying to make an issue of Obama bowing is trivial. To paraphrase Karen, offering a ham sandwich to an Orthodox Jew can be done with complete sincerity, just be more Kosher next time and don't do it again. Stephen |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Whether the bow is trivial or not, the white house saying it didn't happen if it is actually on video as happening is not trivial...it is a symptom of a much deeper illness. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Um.. can I have an AP reference on any/all of the above? (Support the Associated Press) |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Our eyes must have been lying to us, Tim. I can think of no other explanation. Unless it's those crazy. right-wing, red state, tin-foil hat wearing, clinging to their guns and religion, typical white folk conspiracy nuts, brainwashing us into seeing things that didn't actually happen. That has to be the answer. Obama would certainly never lie, obfuscate or equivocate! Obama: Dang those TV crews for having the audacity to film me in a compromising position. You said you had everything under control, Rham. Give me a smoke. And dang those miscreants who uploaded it to the internet for everyone to see, confusing the masses with their misrepresentations of something that never even happened. I never bowed to anyone! Dang those arrogant, dismissive, divisive, derisive descendents of Indian-killing, slave-owning revolutionary ingrates! I declare from now on that the uncensored use of the internet is a security risk to me..er, I mean to the country. Take care of it, Rham. Just use that blueprint China gave us last month. Yeah, that's it over there that I scribbled on the back of that, what is that piece of paper called again? Oh yeah, the Constitution, yeah, you got it. And you know how I like to keep score (wink wink) (har har) (cough cough), give me a smoke, just ask those Blue Dog Democrats who buckled under my persuasive Chicago charm the other day (ha ha). That was priceless! Unlike my budget, (ha ha). So start taking names and addresses, you know, like we did at AIG. That was a good test drive, but it's high time we put those National Security kids to work too. They don't think they're getting health care and college for free, do they? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Denise? Is that you? I've never known you to be deliberately offensive...but let me adjust the atennae on my cone shaped tin foil hat and see if I am getting total clearance on that. *meep* nope, that's not quite it... I am kidding. I hope you are too. ?c'mon...he can't be that scary...can he? I'm back to ask..what IS the proper protocol of two heads of state greeting one another? anybody know? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I heart BobK. You understand that everything that G.W.Bush did is now total complicity with Obama? (It's all the 'pubs have to go on... )It doesn't matter that Obama inherited a job from Hell. (I love the fact that he seldom brings that up in conversation.) But then, he hasn't been answering my texts lately...y'think he's like...busy? *guffaw* |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Why deny something that is trivial? Especially when it so obviously happened? As I indicated, politics is largely a matter of perception. I think one ought to be concerned how the North Koreans, Iranians, and radical Muslims perceive our President. I hope my perceptions of President Obama are in error, because if not, we are facing some rough inflationary times ahead and difficult times internationally. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
There may be some question of the nature of the tough times ahead, Tim. I doubt that there's much question that they will come, economic or geopolitical or both. Whether The President bows or holds hands isn't going to make any difference. I think it has more to do with OPEC, with whether we do anything to fund alternate power resources and get away from oil and whether we can control our own domestic costs. Not to mention about half a dozen other issues. I think it's important to get our civil liberties back in shape, get the balance of powers back in shape, and get the bill of rights back in place. I think these are valid Republican issues as much as they are valid Democratic issues. I'm not certain that there's much disagreement between Americans about this, although the rhetoric seems divisive. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
There may be some question of the nature of the tough times ahead, Tim. I doubt that there's much question that they will come, economic or geopolitical or both. Whether The President bows or holds hands isn't going to make any difference. I think it has more to do with OPEC, with whether we do anything to fund alternate power resources and get away from oil and whether we can control our own domestic costs. Not to mention about half a dozen other issues. I think it's important to get our civil liberties back in shape, get the balance of powers back in shape, and get the bill of rights back in place. I think these are valid Republican issues as much as they are valid Democratic issues. I'm not certain that there's much disagreement between Americans about this, although the rhetoric seems divisive. I agree that the thing is trivial. I saw stills. I haven't been keeping up with the reporting, so I don't know the facts. Evidently there are folks around who don't think it's trivial and who are happy to occupy themselves with this sort of stuff. At least they seem to have found the depth of material that engages them, and they seem to feel that the way a leader deals with this sort of stuff determines whether countries rise and fall. Myself, I'd rather look at economic and geopolitical policy [This message has been edited by Ron (04-09-2009 11:53 AM).] |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Hey Karen, from what I have read, the protocol between heads of state is a handshake. Only subjects of a monarch are to bow or curtsy to them. Was I offensive? Offensive to whom, and which parts? I thought I was just doing a little political satire, and quite a bit of it in Obama's own words! |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
I agree, the actions of this administration as far as amassing power in the executive branch ought to be of grave concern for Republicans and Democrats alike. The coming inflation ought to concern everyone and Carter II diplomacy ought to at least cause minimal thought on both sides of the political spectrum as to what awaits us on the horizon. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Denise, your political satire is brilliant |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
 Thanks, Mike! |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Mike and Denise, You might find this link of passing interest: http://my.opera.com/lounge/forums/topic.dml?id=69951 Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I guess I'll have to settle for sarcasm then, Bob! |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Very passing, Bob. Actually, Don Rickles was always a personal hero of mine. The fact that he was so famous and made millions at his craft means others felt the same way |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Tim, I'm as confused as you are. I get emails, right and left, figuratively and politically speaking, that show pictures and photos and videos of various connections, reconnections, interconnections and sub-leased connections. Some show for, against, leaning, leaving... In like for a friend, I would say, leave a link? But on the other hand, maybe you can't choose which link?  I'm really trying to give Our President a chance... and right now, I'll really try more, as I'm one of the chosen for the new changes. You see, my position was recently downsized as was another six [as of the moment] in my office, in the education category. Do you think the legal arena will take me back? Better question: do I want to go into that arena, again? |
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Tim Senior Member
since 1999-06-08
Posts 1794 |
Sunshine, Nothing wrong in being confused, in fact it is the ones who are not confused you have to be concerned about. Sometimes you have to ignore links and rely on what is in your own harddrive. I am personally one of those who thinks government works best when no one party or branch of government has the power to do things without a few roadblocks, deadends, and compromises thrown in their way. You need to question whoever is in power or you are looking for some unfortunate results. You will be an asset to whatever field you choose, just choose the one that allows to go home each night wanting to go back the next day. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I like what Tim just said. Sign me up for that. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'm confused too Tim. You start out by quite rightly ridiculing a few silly stereotypes, but then immediately go on to demonstrate how such stereotyping is fuelled. Good grief, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether and why he bowed? Why shouldn't the spontaneous and generous gesture of Michelle take precedence over mere protocol? He did it subconsciously because he's a Muslim!?  He did it no doubt because he is a polite person. And what really bothers me is all the fuss that certain sections of the US have made about this. This concern about showing subservience. Gawd almighty, what's wrong with a bit of humility? Have you no idea how much damage the US does to itself by its perceived determination not ever to be wrong or humble? Have you any idea how much stronger and more generous your country looks when its leader does shows some humility and understanding of other cultures? It's precisely when a country (or person) resorts to the "I'm never wrong" scenario that it betrays its weakness. The fact is that the US is heading the same way as all empires, as we in the UK did a century ago: http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0408/p09s01-coop.html Obama knows perfectly well that America's superpower status is waning fast, and he is a wise enough and big enough person, to be able to lead you out of superiority into parity, or yes, even subservience, without losing more than you need to. Just be very thankful you have him as your leader at what will no doubt be one of the most challenging times so far in your short history. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Good grief, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether and why he bowed? Actually, moonbeam, it probably doesn't matter. The fact that the white house would literally backtrack and lie about it happening does. First, if it is no big deal, why would they feel thay have to do that? Second, why would they put themselves in a position to show everyone they ARE liars, trying to cover up, over such a non-issue? Were they too dumb or too rushed to do damage control to remember it was all on tape? None of that shows a lot of intelligence from people who claim to be able to run banks, car dealerships and universal health care. It's more like Hillary claiming to be under fire leaving the helicopter, forgetting that it was all on tape showing the opposite, causing her to claim she was "confused" or Gore claiming to meet with the Mayor of Miami over school issues, forgetting that he really hadn't until the Mayor stated it or Kerry recounting that "one night he would never forget for the rest of his life", until records showed he was in a different country at the time, which caused him to claim he was "confused". Their actions are pure democratic knee-jerking and that is something that DOES matter. Just be very thankful you have him as your leader at what will no doubt be one of the most challenging times so far in your short history. The time is much more challenging BECAUSE we have him as our leader.....history will be the final judge on that. Actuall, I could care less about "superpower status". Let it wane, disappear or take a hike, for all I care. I'm not concerned about "the sun never setting" on the American empire. I would actually prefer to let the rest of the world go it's own way and just concentrate on our own country. Of course, all of the countries who rely on our handouts, charity and support may not want to go along with that. They would prefer to give us the finger with one hand and have the other hand out, palm up. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
There is a huge difference between gestures of SUBSERVIENCE and RESPECT. Protocol issues are not always so clear cut as you might imagine. I made the same error when in the ME years ago, offering a 'curtsy' bow to royalty, partly because everyone else was doing it, even the Swiss and Dutch friends I was traveling with. There are so many REAL issues out there, it surprises me how many people focus on nits. |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I think what has become the bigger issue in this is the fact that the White House is LYING about it, boldly, unashamedly, in the face of video evidence. That is truly disturbing. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Ron, I hadn't seen that my 4/9 message on this had been edited until I had a look today. Thank you for your effort. Sincerely, Bob Kaven |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Good grief, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether and why he bowed? “ “This concern about showing subservience. Gawd almighty, what's wrong with a bit of humility? Have you no idea how much damage the US does to itself by its perceived determination not ever to be wrong or humble? Have you any idea how much stronger and more generous your country looks when its leader does shows some humility and understanding of other cultures? It's precisely when a country (or person) resorts to the "I'm never wrong" scenario that it betrays its weakness. “ I agree. He should have kneeled. . |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
No Huan, I think that would have been seen as mocking by exaggeration, as cheap a trick as sarcasm, don't you agree? Mike and Denise, you are both right of course, I was only addressing part of Tim's original point, lying is definitely not good. |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I don't think the president needs to try to justify a token of respect. Period. But I agree that denying that he bowed would be a shame if he actually did. Is Obama himself denying it? |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Mea culpa Mea culpa . |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Moonbeam, sarcasm isn't a cheap trick. It's an art form! Ess, Obama won't come out personally and deny it at this point. That would only add fuel to the fire. He's content to leave the lying to his staff, I'm sure. That way he can truthfully say that he never personally denied it. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Heh. Yes Denise, and the only one I'm really good at .So the staff are lying? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
I'm sure you have many other talents as well, Moonbeam! Yes, it is my conclusion that the staff are lying. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Rotf - I was talking strictly about art Denise. As I was saying to a dear friend earlier today - I have absolutely no clue about perspective. Which is possibly why I'm so argumentative. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The White House is denying that the president bowed to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia at a G-20 meeting in London, a scene that drew criticism on the right and praise from some Arab outlets. "It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. . .  Maybe he had a sudden attack of the stomach flu at precisely the minute he was shaking hands with the sheik? At least one of Clinton's aides could have come up with that one! |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Or maybe that he was just picking up the Ipod that he dropped on the floor that he bought as a gift for the king! Hmmmm...I wonder what he did buy as a gift for the king. I didn't hear mention of that, only that he bought the queen an Ipod. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. “Mea culpa Mea culpa” Loose Translation: I”m bowing I’m bowing” . |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Actually, Huan, mea culpa is: quote:Free Dictionary So, maybe he steps on some toes? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Poor Gibbs....he was on tv tonight in a press conference where he was asked about the bow. He smiled and said, "No, it wasn't a bow. He was reaching down to shake both hands." When told that the video showed Obama only shaking one hand, with a hand in the cookie jar look, he said, "Well, that happened a long time ago". THAT is the irritating part. If it's a non-issue, why lie about it....and why lie when evidence is so abundant that you did lie? Those are actions of people so full of themselves they don't really care what you think. They are Joe Biden talking about stopping by a diner during his campaign to have coffee with friends - a diner that coincidently had been closed for over 20 years. They don't care if they get caught or not....they just keep doing it, anyway. |
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Ringo
since 2003-02-20
Posts 3684Saluting with misty eyes |
Never mind But this one goes to eleven... http://www.hubpages.com/profile/RingoShort |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
So anytime someone leans or bends in front of someone or something it is "bowing"? You are "bowing" to your grandmother if she is short and you lean downwards to hug her? You are "bowing" to your cat when you lean down to pet it? "Bowing" even to the toilet when you lean down to flush it? I don't think so. A bow is not a bow in the ceremonious sense unless it is intended to be. And only Obama knows if he intended it to be. Pretending you know better just because you saw what it looked like on some video, isn't how to judge something respectfully. For there is more to things than just the superficial appearance: There is the truth and the meaning behind it. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Obama bows to GW and Laura Bush? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsS7OLYWtac Obama bows to the Queen of England? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLuLEfVNow&feature=related Obama bows to the Saudi King? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlqW6UCeaY&feature=related |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You're right, Essorant. I bow to my toilet regularly! and, of course, cats DEMAND that you bow to them! Believe me, I know! |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: If you ask me I’d say it was a bow, that would be my opinion, my best guess evaluation of a situation I didn’t witness first hand. It could be that I’m mistaken of course, that I interpreted it wrong. In which case you could, quite rightly, level a claim that I was wrong or that I was mistaken, but would that make me a liar? I honestly don’t think so. Here’s an interesting conundrum for you Mike, if Bob and Ess think that it’s not a bow am I to presume that you think they’re liars too? Or could it be that they’re simply mistaken? |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
I must be confused, because I don't even agree with some of the things I said in my previous comment anymore. Obviously he bent downwards in greeting and that would be a bow I think. But I don't want to make anymore ado about this. There are better things to do then turn a twosecond bow into a contraversy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Here�s an interesting conundrum for you Mike, if Bob and Ess think that it�s not a bow am I to presume that you think they�re liars too? Or could it be that they�re simply mistaken? If Bob and Ess don't think it's a bow then it is because of partisan thinking and sticking up for their "guy". Essorant has since come out and said it is a bow so that leaves Bob. If the video were of Bush, it would be not only a bow but a curtsey and a loo-de-loop, also. That's ok. It's so funny because it was such a non-issue. The fact that he is bowing is a fact, just by looking at the pic and video. The fact that the white house lied about it is also a fact, from the "no bow" to the "two-handed handshake". All any of these people had to say was, "Fine. It was a bow - so what?" and it would have been a dead issue. Instead we have all of this energy (and dishonesty) trying to convince people of something clearly visible on tape to be untrue. It's like the husband caught in bed with the maid, saying to the wife, "Are you gonna believe what you see or what I tell you?" One has to wonder if they are going through all of this in CYA mode over such a small item, what will they do on the important ones? That's a question everyone should wonder about. Anyway, I narrowed down to these possibilities: (1) Obama had a back spasm at the minute he reached to shake hands (2) Obama was admiring the shine on the sheik's slippers (3) Obama suffers from ADD. "Nice to meet you, shei....OH! LOOK AT THAT MOUSE!!! (4) Obama bowed. Take your pick |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’ve changed my mind too Mike. It definitely wasn’t a bow and anyone who thinks otherwise is a.. err..mistaken person. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear folks, If my post from last evening was to be redacted in it's entirety, please do me the courtesy of placing a note in the thread saying that that was the case, even if you do not chose to make note of the contents. I would not care to let people assume that I would allow this sort of discussion continue without letting my thoughts be known, even if they were not chosen for acknowledgement. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No problem, grinch. Anyone who doesn't agree with you probably saw the photo or the video or saw Gibbs. red-faced, trying to lie his way out of it. Disregarding reality is simple...even a blind man can do it |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I notified you the first ten or twelve times I had to do it, Bob. How about doing me the courtesy of talking about the issues instead of the people who are talking about the issues? Then neither one of us will be wasting our time. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Here is an interesting thing. On 4/8/09 Serenity asked a question, for the sake of information, I suspect, that has not yet been answered. quote: Nobody making accusations and about the President seems to have responded. The gibes have continued as though the question had in fact been satisfactorily responded to. Indeed, it may well have a satisfactory answer, based in clear documentation. Other statements have been made without attribution. Mike put one in Capitol letters, as though it may have been a quote, but without clarifying whether it was a quote or not. If it was a quote, an attribution is customary because even scholars make mistakes in attribution, and it's important to get to the truth of these things. Especially in a context where statements are made that are in quotation marks, and thus state that they are truthful representations of actual statements made in the contexts they are reported to have been made within. Similarly when assertions are made proporting to be truth, sources are generally required to support these assertions. These sources are generally supposed to be reputable sources, and the purpose of sourcing the quotes is so that the reader may evaluate for him or herself the value of these sources. Similarly, the value of the interpretations offered of events is frequently graded as to the reliability of the interpretation; while we do not often do that here, it has been known to save a lot of trouble and on occasions to save a significant amount of foolishness and sometimes a lot of lives. I could go on, but really, it would be misleading, Serenity's request was much simpler than that, and should have been happily and easily complied with as a matter our courtesy in the discussion. That this was not done, is telling. |
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