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Free Grinch
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Free Grinch |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Ok first I should point out that Jen told me to post this in the Alley so any complaints then send them her way. If it should be somwhere else feel free to move it. In a thread in the Workshop I was explaining that I was thinking of giving free verse a whirl as I’ve always avoided it due to my fear that the lack of structure, a scaffold if you will, left me the feeling that I had nothing to build on. I was asking for some pointers. So: A - How do you write good free verse B - Can somebody teach me. D - Jen told me to post this here so remember to send her the complaints C - this should have gone before D please mentally rearrange.  |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
lol Grinch, it strikes me from that post that you already have all the qualifications necessary to write good FV: confusion and insecurity  Back later maybe with something halfway serious. By which time Bob might have got here and save me from making an idiot of myself. |
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Dark Star Member
since 2008-02-20
Posts 392Lost in your eyes |
Good for you to write a free verse, but it doesn't lack structure, it has any poetic rule there is! ~ Give it a try! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Even his questions confuse me and confound with memories of "next moment please" a finger's edge on a bookshelf sniffing down the alphabet in dewey's decimals I count begging for a slice o' pi angled on the keep as I finger up the tomes. |
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Juju Member Elite
since 2003-12-29
Posts 3429In your dreams |
I free verse all of the time. The difference is in free verse you use structure to bring your message across. Every structure and metaphor has meaning which enhances the poem. these structures and metaphors are original and are to appear as if they aren't even there and almost easy. So basically anything goes as long as it ties in with the message and does not follow previous poetry structures. I like it alot. Lots of freedom. (; Don't make fun of us to much though. -Juju -"So you found a girl Who thinks really deep thoughts What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos [This message has been edited by Juju (03-28-2009 02:15 AM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, A good place to start with this question may seem a bit silly or obvious to you, but as often as I've asked it or been asked it, I've always found it useful: Which modern free verse poets do you read? And then, of course, which ones do you enjoy the most? That is, I have trouble understanding why anybody would want to try free verse unless he or she found something interesting in it that spoke to them in a way that seemed unique and powerful. By following up on that piece of interest is one way for trying to write free verse, or at least beginning to do so. One of the best descriptions about how to write free verse, or any poetry at all, for that matter, though metrics isn't really discussed is a longish poem by the late Kenneth Koch called "The Art of Poetry." It's about fifteen pages long, and it's one of those things that I wished would just keep going on. I don't know how familiar you are with Poetry Magazine out of Chicago, but the fact that they devoted if I remember correctly 18 pages to printing it would, if you knew the magazine, say something to you. English taste in poetry is often somewhat different than American, but there seems a somewhat mutual liking for Linda Gregg and Galway Kinnell. Plath and Hughs are both lovely. A good look, though, at Ambit and Poetry Review will give a good selection of free verse folks on both sides, if you aren't familiar otherwise. If you have a greater familiarity than the minimal level I'm thinking about, then why not say who you like and what it is about them that you find most enjoyable. Simply giving somebody a blanket set of rules isn't as helpful usually as trying to approach things from where they have a bit of an interest in the first place. A little reading ought to go along with the first writing, though, so you have some sense of what the things are that people are doing with their work. Just a few ideas, anyway, off the top of my head. Bob Kaven |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Don't listen to him. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I apologize, Bob. k'really.  I am seriously sorry. ? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Sorry guys I’m still lost. Juju, You mention structure but to me structure is a consistent frame from which everything else hangs, I can understand the repetitive scaffold that meter gives to a formal poem. I can see structure in the way that rhyme schemes act to stitch a poem together but free verse doesn’t seem to have the hooks I need to hang my words on. Bob, quote: I’ve a fair bit of interest in poetry, which hopefully will stand me in good stead and I believe I’m a quick learner, if I read a sonnet and the structure is explained I can generally knock out a fair facsimile of the sonnet form. With free verse though I tend to flounder, there’s little structure that I can see beyond a general recognition that what I’m reading is poetry. I can read Heaney until the cows come home but I can’t write Heaney, I can’t see how he’s built it, there’s nothing beyond the recognition that I like it and it’s good. Karen, Show off! Do you fancy giving me a few lessons? Anyone? What I want to do is start with a blank piece of paper and end up with a half presentable free verse poem, so where do I start? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I'm with you, grinch. This was a poem I wrote some time ago displaying my inability to understand or write good free verse... . . He placed the page in front of me. 'Read it" he said. The sentences were in the form of geometrical shapes. I read up one side of the square across the top, down the other side across the bottom up the triangle down the triangle around the circle trying to piece the words together. The sentences curled up the spirals disappearing at the turns to reappear with words missing. I lifted the page. The words slid down the paper to land in a heap at the bottom. I held the page out giving it the forty-niner shake trying to get the words back in place no gold. 'Never mind', he said. 'You just don't get it." I looked again. The words had become worms leaving slimy tracks as they made their way over the blank white surface and I knew he was right. |
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Midnitesun
since 2001-05-18
Posts 28647Gaia |
My writings are mostly free verse, since I have difficulty adhering to highly structured formats. But I do enjoy writing occasional Tankas, Haikus and similar 'short' styles. My style is generally 'spontaneous combustion writing'....sometimes with editing, sometimes just thoughts dripped onto a page without stops or regrets. Maybe it's really just a laziness issue on my part? LOL. |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
I think Mark Spitz could have been just about as good of a centerfielder for the New York Yankees as he was a swimmer. Bob K said it in his reply ~INTEREST~ I will add INCLINATION. I think Balladeer , who writes great rhyme, could write great free verse if he was so inclined. “ A - How do you write good free verse ” ( Have the interest and practice, practice, practice ) “B - Can somebody teach me.” ( Yes, probably Moonbeam ) Btw Balladeer, I thought ~ Read It ~ was OK. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Sorry Grinch, been a bit occupied today, and haven't got time to address it as I'd like to. But, I actually agree completely with Bob (again). It's quite easy to teach someone from a set of plans how to build the structure of a beautiful Georgian mansion (ordered, precise and regular structure and fenestration), the difficulty is in the flair that's needed to finish and furnish it well. A contemporary building is another matter, there's no pattern, no fixed formula for window dimensions; you listen to the land and the surroundings, think about scale and colour, shape and size. Perhaps above all you are influenced, you can't help it. That's why what Bob says is vital. And you of all people should know about influence. Some of your best work after all is patterned by the footsteps of the great Welshman. Why don't you go out and find the equivalent of Him in FV. Having said all that, I've sent you a couple of links giving some pointers about what some people think FV is all about. Later. M You are very sweet Chops but I have enough problems trying to write it myself |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“You are very sweet Chops but I have enough problems trying to write it myself “ Didn’t say you would, I just said you probably could. The difference between lighting and lighting bug. What in the hell am I doing here in the alley |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Just talk to the page, lovie. Really. That's all y'gotta do.  (I think I burnt my tongue whilst I was slurping soup.) Here. touch it. It might be dead. (see? It's that easy and Mike hates it.) *laughing* |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Chops, because this thread is in the Alley? And I am here, lol.But I didn't mean I wouldn't, what I meant was I probably couldn't. Like Karen intimates, I'm not sure that it's something that can be "taught". |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I would never hate your tongue, Serenity!!!  |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ I'm not sure that it's something that can be "taught ". Taught yes, perfected no. Everything I know I learned from someone else , so if I write bad poetry, blame Balladeer. I have never had an original thought ( Well not one I can talk about ), so as I accept this award, I would like to thank all my teachers. Beamer, I’m glad to be here, I could be down South picking cotton . Sorry Balladeer, but this is really not off subject. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes I see what you mean Chops. I think self-taught comes into it here though - influence, imitation (which is how we all learn), much more so than the row of pupils all sitting down in front of Mr Balladeer in his schoolmaster's uniform. Too sexy |
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chopsticks Senior Member
since 2007-10-02
Posts 888The US, |
“ I think self-taught comes into it here though “ Moonbeam, I could not agree with you anymore than that. Like the man talking to Mark Twain said, “ I’m a self made man, thank God.” |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I certainly believe in natural ability. Thing is, though, there are millions of people with natural ability at something but, without work, it all goes to waste. There is nothing more common than wasted natural ability. Having ability is God-given, or just the way the brain is wired at birth. Perfecting it, or making something of it, however, takes work. There are also people with no natural ability at something and yet excel in it by pure hard work. It all depends on how bad you want something... no more wisecracks about my teaching attire....knickers still have a certain flair, imo!  |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
This is, for course, one of the problems with teaching free verse. You make a serious suggestion, like folks saying who they're reading or making suggestions who to read from each other, and you get ignored right off the bat? Right from the beginning free verse is a struggle against our own sense of grandiosity. That whatever I do is the best, and that nobody is doing anything else. But other people are writing some wonderful free verse. Why not simply assume that you're wonderful too, and go out and look at some of the wonderful stuff that other people are writing, and try to understand some of the conversation that's going on in the free verse world today and what the various poems are contributing to that conversation. Can anybody find the poem by Edward Field about the Seal Ooky? It's pre '72. Has anybody seen the Poem by Jon Anderson called "The Secret of Poetry?" Pretty wild but short piece of poetry there. Huan Yi was mentioning Mark Strand; has anybody seen the Mark Strand anthology of Modern American Poetry, or there's and Anthology by Jack Meyers and some-body else of new poets of the 90's. A lot of good poems in both anthologies. But the question is, who makes you see fireworks? And Mike, that poem of yours is still a good free verse poem, and you ought to send it out someplace. Best, Bob K. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I’m not quite sure where that one came from Bob. I mentioned I’m reading Heaney, that I had a general and eclectic interest in most types and forms of poetry and believe it or not I actually researched all the names you supplied. I can’t help myself I see a new poet’s name and have to go see. In fact the other night I did the same when I read Huan’s thread regarding Mark Stroud, I read a potted biography online and several of his poems - one, Courtship I think it was called, I found to be very good, some of the others seemed a little pedestrian. Probably just not my taste. Just to complete the picture I’ve come across Koch before and Plath and Hughes are standard reading material for anyone interested in poetry so I‘ve read, and own copies, of most of their poems. Linda Gregg was new to me - she had a feel of Auden (stop all the clocks) and Dylan Thomas in one of the poems I read, can’t think of the name of it off the top of my head. I liked that one. I could list the poets I’ve read but as I’ve pointed out it hasn’t really helped, I can copy them, change the metaphors and subjects but it still seems that I’m not creating anything other than a facsimile. Taking Moons analogy I need someone to explain the method of construction so I can go out and build something of my own. Surely someone has some pointers (Btw bob that poem of Linda Gregg’s was The Resurrection, I’d saved a copy to compare it with Auden and Thomas to work out what sparked my feeling of familiarity.) . |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, Sorry Grinch if I came across as testy. Here's what I suggest as a way of getting started, then. Go find some some exercises by Jim Simmerman. He has one that suggests 20 short poetry projects. If you can find his directly, that would be best. What he's done is to go through a lot of poems and taken out specific manoevers that he's enjoyed. If you have a look at his list, there's really no reason why you can't put your own list together as well. I'd suggest you start with his, because he's got more experience than you do with this sort of stuff, and the moves that he's chosen are very concrete and quite particular. Run through the exercises without trying to necessarily make the twenty projects ( one or two lines each is all that you need) connect. When you've got them done, look them over and look for the connections that are there between them, even though you haven't attempted top put them there. They're connected because you wrote them and because they're your themes. Now put them together making sure that you allow a little bit of a space for both you and the reader to have a bit of a jump between one and the next into a working poem. When you write the lines, read them aloud and use your breath to measure out the length of each line. Start out with one breath equals one line. Later on you may want to experiment with other measures, but this is a good one to start with. Simmerman makes a point of saying that you should use each of the senses in your lines as a way of describing or talking about something. It's a good idea even in metrical verse. Imagery is not only visual, and everybody is not primarily a visual person. Make sure you get in as many verbs with concrete references to the senses as you can. This way, you can pay attention to the form of what your writing in the same way that you can pay attention to the form of a sonnet, but the form you choose is more open and variable. Free verse doesn't mean formless verse. Anyway, you wanted something more specific. I'm skipping ahead a bit for you. What are some of the things that Heaney (not really free verse now, is he?) or the other guys do that you admire? I'd been hoping to have you build up a list of your own stuff from scratch rather than offering you Simmerman's excellent list. Your own list would be more empowering, since you'd get more of a sense of where lists and choices like this come from, and how they're rooted in your reading and in the poetic conversation. Maybe after you've seen Simmerman's list, you could add a few of your own faves from your own reading. I like starting out, for example, with syllabics and then revising away from them at times. Dick Hugo liked to try to rhyme within perhaps five or six syllables of a word. If you look at Keats, you can see that he spent a lot of time playing with vowels to keep things moving and to keep his associations primed, though of course, he wasn't free verse. Denis Johnson once tossed in a fairly modern invocation to the Gods in an everyday free verse poem. I don't believe it's been published, but the line was — "Dear Boss of The Angels, Dear Mr. President..." I don't know if you like that one or not, but I'm still envious after almost 40 years. Still tickled as well, tickled as the first time I heard it. I don't know if this is at all useful for you, or for anybody else, but I'm hoping it might offer something of use. I'd love to see what you or anybody else comes up with, by the way. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
http://mypage.siu.edu/puglove/twenty.htm Thanks Bob will do . |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m ticking them off, one by one, but I’m finding it easier going by stringing them together as I go, the theme is a useful scaffold, Here’s what I have so far, though rough and draft should be two words at the forefront of your mind when you read it. Dig covers for the dead men ironed with a sapper’s spade. Plant them with poppies fit to make old Owen weep for dulce et decorum est is infinite. Look to the skies to mask the stench of brave men buried by the whim of fools? Those crosses lie. No saviour walks these fields to heal the gouged and gassy wounds and Bertha’s boom out-shoots that wordy book by thirty miles. . [This message has been edited by Grinch (03-28-2009 11:57 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Feel both the tocking and the tick slip from the timer counting down through deaf drums Passchendaele’s pretence of bees. Incendiaries all sing the same “that penprick he’s a flesh fund for the ground”. Rain chases mustard through an orphan trench kissing all the babies off to sleep. Yellow clouds of nightmares hum a lullaby, a witches slit, to boil a toady blister on each lip. Which witch brewed this? The taste of a bayonet, a steely sin, that saves you if you fail to fall down dead at the first bite. Your stretcher is a bier through the lines Of dead men on their way to die Salute them. Heroes don’t ask why decorum unlike death is infinite. -------------------- Well how did I do besides badly? [This message has been edited by Grinch (03-29-2009 12:08 AM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Well, Grinch, you're talking drafts here. so I'd have to say pretty good. You're in a bit of a hurry though. Why not mark off which of the Simmerman exercises go with which of the lines so we can look at things more closely. If you're think well or badly, you're in a rush to finish without digesting the details of what you're doing, and I think you're doing some interesting things. Slow things down and breathe while you work. We'll get to the line breaks later. Right now, try to do each of the exercises and make each of them clear as prose, in the same way that you're careful to communicate when you're talking to me. Whatever may be wrong with Ezra Pound, and believe me, there's plenty, I think he's pretty much got the right idea when he says that poetry has to be at least as well written as prose. So slow down and make everything as clear as you can. Remember, this is early draft time. By the way, I have a fascination with this world war I stuff too. I had take "Wipers" out of a poem because it would only bamboozle folks who barely understood "Ypres." Make the stuff as clear as you can first. Who did what to whom, in what order where and when. Fancy can come a little later. In my humble opinion. On the other hand, what about the other folks who are watching and listening. I suggest they use the reference to the Simmerman exercise whose link you so kindly dug up and offer thoughts on the exercise itself or whatever. I think it's a very good try, by the way. Let's keep rolling with it. Yours, Bob Kaven |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Wow Bob, what very useful stuff - and impressive Grinch ("a witches slit"? )I loved Simmerman's list, especially the "adjective, concrete noun of abstract noun" exercise; which it seems to me, can turn even the commonplace into something unusual. More later maybe, from the beautiful cat of love. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Sorry Bob, it’s the way I normally write, an hour or two of scribbling and a several years in edit mode. I’ll try to slow down though.. I’ll add some notation later today. Simmerman’s projects are very useful, however, I found it difficult using them all in a simple exercise - I’d advise anyone trying it to perm any five from twenty. I think after I add notes to this one I’ll start again doing just that and follow your suggestions this time - slow and simple. Moon, What can I say, it was late I was thirsty, my throat was as dry as.. well let’s not go there. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Dig covers for the dead men 1 ironed with a sapper’s spade. 2 Plant them with poppies fit to make old Owen weep 5 for dulce et decorum est 7 and 18 is infinite. 17 Look to the skies to mask the stench 4 and 3(1) and 3 (2) of brave men buried by the whim of fools? Those crosses lie. No saviour walks these fields to heal the gouged and gassing wounds 16 and Bertha’s boom out shoots that wordy book by thirty miles. 17 Feel both the tocking and the tick 3 (3) slip from the timer counting down through deaf drums 3 (4) Passchendaele’s pretence of bees. 5 Incendiaries all sing the same “that penprick he’s a flesh fund for the ground”. 19 and 14 Rain chases mustard through an orphan trench kissing all the babies off to sleep. 12 Yellow clouds of nightmares hum 11 a lullaby, a witches slit, 10 to boil a toady blister on each lip. 8 and 16 Which witch brewed this? 9 The taste of a bayonet, a steely sin, 3 (5) that saves you if you fail to fall down dead at the first bite. 3 (5) Your stretcher is a bier through the lines Of dead men on their way to die 12 Salute them. 13 Heroes don’t ask why. Decorum unlike death Is infinite. 6 and 20 . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Pesonally, I think a lot depends on why one writes. Does one write for other poets? does one write for himself? Does one write for an audience? I think these points mean a lot when writing. If I read a poem that makes me say "huh?", the poem to me is a failure. However there are writers that could care less if 95 out of 100 don't "get it". So what is your purpose, grinch, in writing your free verse? The purpose will determine it's success. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I agree with you Mike - that's one of the first questions anyone should try and answer. But, believe it or not, I think a lot of poets have problems giving themselves an honest answer. FV my numbers Grinch - humm. I think this is ok as an exercise, but I kind of think you are "beyond" it in ability. Have you tried just reading a number of FV poets you admire in a concentrated way for a couple of days, then just putting them aside, and, as Karen said, just writing? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
That’s a good question Mike. I write all types of poems for all types of reasons. I get asked to write poems for weddings, birthdays and funerals etc. the stuff you’d call poetry for the common man - always a metrical form with rhyme. That stuff’s for other people to read, though I enjoy constructing them to boot. Then there’s the complicated traditional forms - the sonnets, rondeaus, villanelles etc. I write those because they’re a challenge. Then there’s my syllabic and obscure stuff, that’s written primarily for my enjoyment, if I gave one of those to someone to read at a wedding or add to an anniversary card they’d string me up or look at me as if I’d flipped probably saying something like. “very nice but I wanted a poem” Or just plain “huh!” I’d say the syllabic and obscure stuff is, for me, like creating a crossword puzzle, working out what word fits where and how to get 2 down to slot into 3 and 9 across is something I enjoy. Those poems are generally convoluted, the metaphors and language twisted to include multiple meanings and themes to make the construction as hard as possible, the meanings as obscure as possible and consequently increasing my enjoyment as I grapple with them. Because they’re like crossword puzzles though, something that needs to be worked out, I’ve discovered a strange phenomenon - some people when they read them don’t say huh! As you’d expect, they scratch their heads and say hmm! Then sit down and try to solve them. Free verse - to me - fits somewhere between a sonnet and my obscure syllabic stuff, it’s another form for me to learn, another puzzle to solve and overcome. I’ll be writing them primarily for my enjoyment but if someone else enjoys them too - well that’s a bonus. . [This message has been edited by Grinch (03-29-2009 06:39 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Moon, I’ve been reading FV as long as I’ve been reading sonnets and syllabics. I still don’t get it, I like them, I recognise they've been carefully constructed I just want to know how.. It’s like trying to find the beast of Bodmin trying to pin FV down. Some folk tell you FV is anything but free, it’s very carefully and precisely constructed. Great! HOW! So what are the rules of construction? There aren’t any. So I can basically write anything I want? Well no, you need to use specific devices. OK what are they? Ah, they’re the same as the devices used in formal poetry. Then what makes them free? They’re more specific and natural, more conversational. So is this conversation FV? Err.. No. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear everybody, quote: Now I wouldn't have put Mike's points exactly this way, but I think that he says something interesting here. When I write, I want to make a point of people understanding the prose content of what I'm saying. That doesn't mean that I want to write down to them and to dumb down what I'm saying; this is simply one of the personal values that I've decided is useful in my own writing and that I've decided to adopt. I will stretch this from time to time, but I want to remain aware where and when. I don't (for me) want my poetry to be more difficult to follow than reasonably clearly written prose. This is why I feel it’s important to read what my contemporaries are writing, to gain something of a feel for what the nature of the poetic conversation of my time actually is about. That way, I’m more likely to make a conscious choice when I write about how I want to address it. Do I want to capitalize the words that begin my lines? Do I want to use a capital “I” when I write? Do I want to use an ampersand (“&”) or an “and” in my lines. Is there some way I can tell when each of these is a useful way to go? What use do I want to make of internal rhyme? Of end rhyme? How abstract do I care to be? Each of these questions are things that I must approach with an open mind on pretty much a daily basis. Some will become longer term policy. “Huh?” is not a reaction I like to have generated by my poems because I want them to be understandable on a prose basis. The plot and action and sequence should be pretty clear and get more clear as the number of drafts increase. This is a personal value and not a prescription on how to write free verse. In free verse, what succeeds is whatever works for you and for your given audience. Dick Hugo used to disagree with that sometimes. He used to say that you didn’t have to please anybody but yourself, and the next word or sentence was there because you put it there. The heck with logic. He also said that he took it for granted that you could and would write a good clear and understandable english sentence. Hugo was great with paradox. So much for general comments. I’m likely to be wrong or at least very opinionated about such things, and my opinions often change from day to day. Why not look at Grinch’s effort a little more closely, but do it in another little block of commentary. And anyway, I’d like to hear what folks think of the guano that I’ve been spouting so freely here anyway. Cheerfully enough, Bob Kaven |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, I've had a look at the first few of the poetry exercises here. I've tried to talk about them a little bit. My sense overall is that you're in a hurry to get through them. I understand that this is the way that you usually tackle things, and I don't want to get in the way of that too much, but in this case there is a point to it. You're coming together here too quickly, I think, to get the benefits of the exercise. Think of each of these things as a separate small poem, each deserving its own little sentence. Don't think of them as being about the same subject. When it comes time, eventually, to revise, it may turn out that way; but for now if you close in on a single subject, you won't be getting the sense of the individual importance of each of these little pieces. You won't, in the end, have enough pieces to move around and try alternate story directions because you will have already hammered yourself into a predictable text. You want to be able to shake up your writing a bit so that you can see what your actual options may be for texts that you didn't know you had inside you. Then we can add one stuff about lineation and internal rhyme and stuff like that. First, we need to get you pried loose from the place you are barnacled to at this point, and give your poetry some wandering room, to stretch and see things from different perspectives, still your own, but less accustomed. Is that Okay? I try to go through the first few of the exercises in the Simmerman poetry projects. I'd like to hear what you think of what I'm saying, and what other folks think as well. Dig covers for the dead men 1 A metaphor is basically one (familiar) idea used to explain another (less familiar or even novel) idea. Simmerman’s thinking here, I expect, is to start of the poem by tossing the reader into suddenly novel territory from ground that’s started out as being quite regular and predictable. The object is to surprise not only the reader, but probably and even primarily, the writer him or herself so that the writer find him or herself on on ground where he has no mastery or control. The idea is that perhaps in revision, in being forced to make clear sense of these things, a seamless sense of delight and meaning will be generated not only for the reader, but for the writer as well. Your experience in talking about how people settle down to read your free verse things as though solving a puzzle has something to it, but it leaves out the sense of emotional delight and engagement, you see, that can come from this sort of constant surprise within the context of discovery. Take a moment in working at the revision here actually to think about making the metaphor. The first poem that Simmerman wrote using this exercise ended up in Poetry magazine. “Moon Go Away You Don’t Love Me Any More” was the title, as I recall it; if you can find it, it’s worth having a look at. ironed with a sapper’s spade. 2 Now this is interesting, but you leave out a lot of information that might help us understand why this particular piece of information is actually preposterous. Inquiring minds, wishing to be surprised, would like to know. Plant them with poppies fit to make old Owen weep 5 You do have (Wilfred) Owen. That’s not bad for a first draft. For your next revision, what about the name of somebody that surprises you or me, and that gives us a place that offers us a surprise as well. Spread out, give yourself a challenge and a bit of a shock. You’ve already settled into a poem that you’re pretty much sure is going to be about World War One, and the moves are already laying themselves out for you in advance. Let me be clear, here. There is nothing wrong with such a poem. But the idea of writing this sort of poem is to stretch beyond that sort of thing, into areas where you’re not sure where things are going to go. Robert Graves and Wilfred Owen already did these things. It may be that you and I will surpass them; the material is very powerful. You can continue to work on that poem as well, in a different place. For this poem, you shouldn’t be so settled so early into the text. You should still be writing small single poetry projects. Later you can worry about how they fit together. Right now, think of them as separate things, one about coconuts, the next about famous danish Kings, a third about diseases I have have known and loved. Later you can go back. Best for now, Bob Kaven |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
1 A poem is a library 2 Shrews catch worms with razor blades 3 The coffee smelled like roasted oak Felt like a water bottle in my hands Looked like liquid dreams Tasted smooth like sleep And sounded like a fine idea 4 I felt the sound of thunder moan 5 Einstein would have liked the warmth of Spain 6 Poems aren’t libraries they are sewers 7 Did I tell you that I once lived in a library 8 The wazack didn’t know the blue wire was live 9 Trout force mayflies out of the stream 10 I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could chuck him 11 A mahogany suit of dreams 12 The exploding television caressed my legs like a lover 13 Tom ate the mountain and the moon 14 The jack of knaves he worries words 15 She will rule when the west wind calls 16 Woody seas licked at the prow 17 I danced the tango on one leg 18 ich kann diesen freien Vers nicht Schreiber 19 The spade swam the river like a fish 20 Cold black coffee in a thimble . |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Oooooooooohhh I wanna buy 1 and 16 from you.  oh and 2 (and 8 is funny but the yanks won't get it ) |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Karen you just ordered: Won Tun Soup,King Prawns with Ginger and Spring Onions with a portion of Fried Noodles and Bean Sprouts. is that to eat in or take out?  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Are you asking me out? Or...suggesting we stay "in"? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Eat in, definitely - I don’t like crowds.  |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Well then, we'll order to go and eat in. But I get to be in charge of the movie choice. Maybe some Bruce Lee thingie? and oy, I wish I could write today. My head is constipated. |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Grinch, This is lovely, Mr Grinch. The bit about the yanks not getting it is, at least for this yank, true. And you do seem to be able to write it, you simply are nervous about it. How does this particular list feel for you, by the way? This is a question of personal curiosity, since it seems quite different than your usual material. Next step, Leaving your first and last lines as is, read the projects over a few times until you get a sense of a story running through it. You may have to swap lines around and do some minimal revisions in the order, but the idea is to revise toward that story with as few actual changes as you can get away with, only those to make clear the connections and to get a clear prose sense of what's actually going on. Why not give that a try, and see what you come up with? Let's have a look see then. I'm also curious if you notice any difference when you use the sensory references. I'm not so good about putting them in my stuff, but I often feel a significant difference when I do. You'll notice, I hope, that these are also formal demands in the same way that use of fourteeners or hendecasyllables or poulter's measure can be formal demands. Think of it as a sort of Structuralist approach to formalism, if it's helpful to you; the formalism is still there, but the shape it takes focuses on different aspects of the text. You still need to meet demands, but the demands that you need to meet are in the service of the poem and not in the service of showing off for your fellows. My position here is that in this sort of writing, you become the servant of the poem rather than of the tradition, and your writing process becomes a process of of dialogue between the text and your self. In traditional verse, frequently the effort is in making the poem do what the poet wants it to do. This is of course an iffy statement, you'd be justified in disagreeing, and given the day and the phase of the moon, I might disagree with me as well. Nevertheless I make the statement because I think there is a piece of truth in it someplace that may be useful at times in the writing process. If there isn't, throw it out. My suggestion about the next stage of the revision, however, still stands. I'm trying to get you acquainted with one sort of process here, and this is a way of getting your feet wet with it. Don't take it too seriously; and do enjoy. Looking forward, Bob Kaven [This message has been edited by Bob K (03-30-2009 08:47 PM).] |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
A poem is a library; A mahogany suit of dreams. Did I tell you I once lived in a library? Where old trout forced mayflies from the stream; shrews catching worms with razor blades. That was a woody sea licking at the proud as I, dancing the tango on one leg, felt the sound of thunder moan, “a jack of knaves he worried words” ich kann diesen freien Vers nicht Schreiber, Poems aren’t libraries they’re sewers Einstein would have liked the poems of Spain But I wouldn't trust him as far as I could chuck him. The wazack didn’t know the wires were live, even after the explosion of television caressed my pen like a lover and the word ends swam my arteries like a fish. They felt like silver bullets in my hands, twisting like liquid dreams. Words, not science, will rule when the west wind calls. In the cafe Thom Gunn ate the mountain and the moon. He said it tasted smooth like sleep That the coffee smelled like roasted oak it sounded like a fine idea: Cold black coffee from a thimble |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, Interesting text so far. What do you think about it, before we go further? To my mind it's beginning to look better and better, though I think it has some problems with shifting of tense at this point, and there is some problem with the prose sense of it because of the difference in dialect between U.S. and U.K. Speak to me here, Mr. Grinch. Also, as far as I know, this isn't a one-to-one tutorial, so any comments from other folks watching and listening in are very welcome. This is not only for Grinch, it's a process for everybody that Grinch has been courageous enough to take a shot at, and at which he is doing very well indeed. Best to everybody, and all comments are encouraged. For those of us whose German is even worse than mine, his comment in German was a suggestion that he couldn't write free verse. Clearly he was premature. The reason I'm asking for his personal thoughts here is so I know which way it might be best to steer him and which way it might be most fun for him to try on the one hand, and also to get some feedback for myself, for my own pleasure as well. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
Bad idea asking me what I think about what I write - I’ve a deep seated hate\hate relationship with everything I write. I think it’s too disjointed, minimum editing to loosely tack the ideas around a vague central theme has resulted in a disjointed, loosely tacked together poem based around a vague central theme. I was itching to lose the whole Einstein sidetrack, the last strophe was tight, though I’d try to put some of Thom Gunns words in there to give it some authenticity if I were going to take it further. The end lacks any punch - it sounds like some frilly sleeved poetician trying to sound poetic and profound and failing badly. In fact most of it sounds a little like that. ich kann diesen freien Vers nicht Schreiber Bed time, back tomorrow |
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Hypatia Junior Member
since 2004-03-22
Posts 18 |
I too, kept a library-- my father left it to my keep. Everything you'd want to know was housed in it, shelved deep. The scrolls were kept better than bones in jars with herbs that do such things. Yea, I had a library and it housed the works of kings. I speak of Alexandria where even paupers peered the scrolls. There has not been another since that rivaled such papyrus, fold. The people hated me for this-- a woman's mathematics? Worshipping the pagan gods-- such assumptions deemed me odd. And so they tore me limb from limb because I worshipped none but whim. Someday, again, I shall return and slant my rhymes and free the verse! Until then I subject my curse (just when it can't get any worse) someone sparks an infamous fire that destroys the words. Free the Grinch! I rally, cry! And be damned this flesh of mine frying as I'm burned alive until the very end of time finds the center of the clock. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Dannnnnnnnng...Hypatia? That ain't half bad, considering it took you longer to log in and out than it did to write it.  *laughing* |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Thank you, Hypatia! Thanks, Grinch, for the honest modesty. I believe you mean it, and I think as far as it goes, it would be true for any of us trying to avoid getting tangled in the various traps narcissism provides us — over or under estimation of what we're doing, being the most potentially painful ones for me personally. This is one of the reasons why looking at our own work and doing our own revision is so very difficult, and why listening to others is so important, of course. I too am quite fond of the last stanza. I'm not sure about it being as slight as you think it to be, though. I worry about those with a deep seated love for everything they write most. One way that I find helpful for looking at what works in a poem or not — in my own poems, it often takes me longer to see this — is to notice where there is a shift in energy in the the writing. In my own stuff, and in many people's stuff, you can actually hear or feel a place where the energy shifts and the poem starts to work or where it stops working, like live and dead spots in the ongoing fabric of the text. This is much clearer when you read the poem out loud, preferably to somebody else, but even if you only read it out loud to yourself you can often feel the difference. I'd like other folks to comment, too. I want to be clear that I happen to think that this is a pretty decent piece of work on its way to happening. It may work out in the end or it may not, but I can feel a clear difference in it over the past few days, and it does feel more alive and lively to me at this point. Do other people agree or not? If they do agree, where do they see this; if not, where do they find it missing? I, for example, find something I can't quite put my finger on that troubles me about the question. I'm trying to find language for it. I'm also considering whether it might want to be someplace else in the poem, or to take some other form, or whether possibly there's something about one of the lines before or after that makes it sound as though it doesn't fit there to me. I'm also considering that I'm completely off base somehow, trying to hold all these possibilities in mind at once and let my unconscious give me a nudge about it, because I don't want to do something hasty. These are some of the things that I think about when I revise. But what about the rest of you folks? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I love this thread. This is precisely the sort of thing that would fit into any new poetry discussion forum in my view. Bob, thanks for taking the time here, I've got a very full off-line day today and tomorrow is worse, but I'll try and make some intelligent comments this evening if I can. Btw I hope Yanks wasn't offensive - I put it in the same category as "Brit", but now I'm wondering? "Wasack" is colloquial northern England, Grinch? Anyway, it essentially means pillock, or gormless idiot, or some such; perhaps gormless idiot is too pejorative as wasack as you would probably call a mate who just did a silly thing a wasack, there would be no enmity. I too like the way Grinch has proceeded. I'm not sure whether he's headed for an end product that would attract me or not right now, though I think his assessment of his own efforts as being a "frilly sleeved poetician trying to sound poetic and profound and failing badly" is grossly unfair. (What you have to understand Bob is that he comes from a gritty Lancastrian town where anything not to do with clogs and cobbles is foreign, and all poncy FV poetic ideas are regarded with great suspicion ). I tend to agree with Grinch's own assessment about disjointedness. I suppose I err towards the conservative in a scale of FV taste, and once the images and ideas appear to be to be pulled in from nowhere, with no binding glue of any sort, then I start to feel uncomfortable. Right now this has some high points and some other high points and in between there is either nonsense or writing that should bind but doesn't. In other words it reads as an early FV draft, like my notes for a poem, except considerably better and more advanced than my notes ever are.For what it's worth I rarely construct poems in this way nowadays. I used to, and perhaps I should try again, allowing the poem to spring from a series of random building blocks. My more planned approach doesn't seem to have done much for my writing in that last year or so, perhaps that's part of the problem. Humm. Food for thought. Sorry to ramble. Hypatia welcome. Really good effort, enjoyed. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
In your first sample, I feel you’ve treated me to a fine objective/subjective feast of words, Grinch. From my perspective, FV is, in essence, a film reel of projected imagery and thoughts that ticker and tickle the mind. Your offering is no “snooze fest.” You’re handling the universal themes of death & destruction, using many props, such as the “sapper’s spade” and “poppies.” You captured my interest with the poppies because they are a recurring symbol of death in writing/art. Your usage is classic and not at all cliché there. Congrats on that. Your poem is opened and closed, a bit too neatly considering its message, but? So is the reality of conditioning involved with war. You have a pleasing form, with which the form’s overall appeal is impressionistic mixed with the surreal, to me. (Mental base et juxtaposition, Cézanne et Dali?) I’m very visually inclined so that’s why the ref to artistes, but such holds true brush strokes with literature, in kind. Again, moving pictures, mind you, not stills, for FV. IMO, FV’s Form relies upon fluidity instead of a structurally static positioning. (but FV is not subject to an obvious flow, due to underlying currents, as in nature) As Serenity says. “Just talk to the page.” In doing so, use your charm, wordsmithing all parts with many of the same tools of formality. Which you’ve employed assonance, alliteration, imagery, tension and release, symbolism, internal rhyme, key references, power words, minor breaks and pauses, etc. You are telling me something with enough literary and mental and emotional stimuli that I am moved to read, which transposes into listen, see, ponder, taste, and feel, as I move along with the words. Of course the smell of death is most horrific to me and it would be difficult to achieve such an impact with any regard to “decorum,” so not all elements are necessary for one to receive a powerfully poetic offering, thankfully. I find that with formality, the poet expresses how beautifully blue a lover’s eyes are--coolio control. With FV, there’s little attention to control. The rhyme falls out as the poet falls in to the utter vulnerability of his pen while caught in the eyes that storm him. With little time on my hands, I scanned the second offering and feel it’s worth more time. You certainly have solid hooks and your language is not that of a novice. Your statement about the “frilly sleeved poetician” made me laugh. It reminded me of an old Seinfeld episode: “The Puffy Shirt.” got to run, but this thread is fun, and I know your journey has just begun. *bleck* always, reg |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I've never found being a Yank offensive, myself. Thanks for asking, though. I like folks comments about Grinch's draft here. It sounds like folks feel that there's too much space between the various exercises, and that Grinch agrees with this sense of things. My sense is that there are a couple of different ways to go with this, though I'd be interested in hearing about other possibilities. One way is to try to look at the parts that seem to cohere most tightly and seem to share the most energy with each other. If I were going to do that, what I'd do is I'd try throwing everything else out, and then look at the gaps left. I'd pick some of the more interesting of the exercises from the Simmerman exercise, particularly giving preference to including new sensory images using verbs that express visual, auditory or proprioceptive communicative channels — seeing, hearing, internal muscle or organ feeling as opposed to affect/feeling. Use these pieces to bridge places in your current text. If you like some of them better than your current text, feel free to substitute, but the idea is to produce something with a prose-sensible plot that can be paraphrased. It needs to be at least as clear as prose. Another way of proceeding is to expand on the text you have, and put in the bridges that you need to put in to make the connections between the seeming disconnects that appear in your current text to be as clear as they need to be. Again, your idea is to have a clearly paraphrasable text that makes sense, but whose language has a sparkle an a verve to it that is impossible to find in prose. Feel free to try anything else that seems to interest you or any combination. The idea here is that you are revising for the poem, and that you are going where the poem leads you, not where you think the poem has to go. This is a dance between you and the poem. You are not trying to work your will upon the thing. Allow yourself to be surprised by what your language discovers as you go. If you discover something fabulous and it doesn't work here, put it in your notebooks, it will always have a place later. More than anything else, the idea is to have fun and to allow yourself to have a playful relationship with your poem and the language. I'm fascinated to see where you go with this thing next. To my mind it's already taken on many of the aspects of a living poem, and it has some places where I find it delightful. Keep on trucking. All my best, Bob Kaven |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
I've never found being a Yank offensive, myself. Thanks for asking, though. I like folks comments about Grinch's draft here. It sounds like folks feel that there's too much space between the various exercises, and that Grinch agrees with this sense of things. My sense is that there are a couple of different ways to go with this, though I'd be interested in hearing about other possibilities. One way is to try to look at the parts that seem to cohere most tightly and seem to share the most energy with each other. If I were going to do that, what I'd do is I'd try throwing everything else out, and then look at the gaps left. I'd pick some of the more interesting of the exercises from the Simmerman exercise, particularly giving preference to including new sensory images using verbs that express visual, auditory or proprioceptive communicative channels — seeing, hearing, internal muscle or organ feeling as opposed to affect/feeling. Use these pieces to bridge places in your current text. If you like some of them better than your current text, feel free to substitute, but the idea is to produce something with a prose-sensible plot that can be paraphrased. It needs to be at least as clear as prose. Another way of proceeding is to expand on the text you have, and put in the bridges that you need to put in to make the connections between the seeming disconnects that appear in your current text to be as clear as they need to be. Again, your idea is to have a clearly paraphrasable text that makes sense, but whose language has a sparkle an a verve to it that is impossible to find in prose. Feel free to try anything else that seems to interest you or any combination. The idea here is that you are revising for the poem, and that you are going where the poem leads you, not where you think the poem has to go. This is a dance between you and the poem. You are not trying to work your will upon the thing. Allow yourself to be surprised by what your language discovers as you go. If you discover something fabulous and it doesn't work here, put it in your notebooks, it will always have a place later. More than anything else, the idea is to have fun and to allow yourself to have a playful relationship with your poem and the language. I'm fascinated to see where you go with this thing next. To my mind it's already taken on many of the aspects of a living poem, and it has some places where I find it delightful. Keep on trucking. All my best, Bob Kaven Other people's thoughts and comments seem to have been useful and productive so far, and I urge you to keep on coming with them. The more specific you can be with them, as you may be able to tell by now, the better use Grinch will be able to make of them. The more specific your comments are, also, the better idea you start to develop for yourselves about what sort of moves you want to experiment with in your own revision process. Get and Give, here; the more specific the help you can offer, the more specific an understanding you get about the moves you can try out when you do this on your own, or when you bring stuff in and want some feedback with something that you're doing. ""Good" or "Great Read" will often be true, but unless you can say what it is that makes it a "great read" or "good," you haven't gotten any extra skill from the time you've taken to read the poem, and all you've give is some (wonderful) encouragement. Be more selfish, so you can learn and teach more. Learn how to make mistakes here. This can be a good place to make them. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
quote: I'd like to echo that from my own experience Bob. I don't think it can be mentioned too often. Thanks. Travelling today, later. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Ok, I didn't have to travel after all, and I survived the ropeless bungee jump from St Gilbert's, so I have a minute to wonder if you are trying to head this towards a poem Grinch, or whether you are just playing around still apres exercise, and as Bob says, having fun. If it's a poem then right now it hasn't got enough cohesiveness about it imo to avoid being slapped into the category I reserve for incomprehensible contemporary nonsense; if it's a draft or still an exercise then, great. And then again I may just be incapable of switching off the part of me that craves order and neatness, because after all I'm the person who hates going anywhere near the Tate Modern. Having said that I see some definite fingerposts here. The opening reminded me for some reason of Billy Collins' "Introduction to Poetry", you know the one that begins "I ask them to take a poem/and hold it up to the light/like a color slide" - the poem as an object that can be explored, heard, touched, communicated with, is always an interesting beginning, and your opening two lines certainly take me in that direction, and imo the rest of the poem would benefit from being built on that opening premise. A poem is a library; A mahogany suit of dreams. Did I tell you I once lived in a library? >>>Personally, I'm not comfortable with that sudden switch. Some people will undoubtedly like it, but it gives me that sensation where you look languidly at a view and then turn your head away slowly, only to practically crick you neck out as you swivel back fast as your brain catches up with your eyes and realises you saw something out of place. Uncomfortable. Where old trout forced mayflies from the stream; shrews catching worms with razor blades. >>>this could have followed L1-2 imo, but your tenses are all over the shop. That was a woody sea licking at the proud >>>Again you need some linkage imo, it's just too far fetched, and "proud" throws up one of those situations where you always read the word it should have been "prow", until the substitution just becomes annoying. These: > as I, dancing the tango on one leg, >felt the sound of thunder moan, >"a jack of knaves he worried words" >Poems aren't libraries they're sewers >even after the explosion of television caressed my pen like a lover >and the word ends swam my arteries like a fish. >Words, not science, will rule when the west wind calls. >He said it tasted smooth like sleep >Cold black coffee from a thimble are all intriguing, and I could imagine might work into a poem which questioned the nature of itself (is a poem a sewer?), and in questioning that questioned the nature of the poet "and the word ends swam my arteries like a fish". The remainder I am struggling with. Personally I think a dose of old fashioned Grinch would now be good for this rather than any more Mark Strand or John Ashbery. M |
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Dark Star Member
since 2008-02-20
Posts 392Lost in your eyes |
always try something new, and maybe you might find a new favorite |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Grinch, Moonbeam's located at least nine lines that she thinks are good lines in the exercise so far. Perhaps as many as 13 or 14. She also notices that the tenses are all over the place; but, if you'll remember, since part of the exercise was to treat each of the 20 as a separate small individual task, that would be understandable. I agree that the nine lines moonbeam specifies are in fact wonderful lines, and it's probably time to start thinking about tenses. I made some suggestions for revisions and ways of thinking about revision. I admire the specificity that Moonbeam has offered feedback here. This has been useful to Moonbeam, as she develops a way of looking at free verse and ways of revising it, and possibly for you as well, since she's been pretty concrete about what she's liked. If for example Moonbeam had been able to say that the imagery or the sensory content of various lines had ben particularly striking, then the feedback might have been more useful to each of you, but moonbeam did well, and I hope you found it useful as well. I also hope you were able to find some things that you may have disagreed with in what Moonbeam said, and are able to keep those in mind as well. You may, in fact not disagree with Moonbeam, of course, but it's useful to try to sharpen our sense of where we agree with folks who give us feedback AND where we disagree, because we're trying to build our own viewpoint about revision. Sometimes, as well, after a while, something somebody tells us will make sense that it didn't at first. So, Grinch, what's your take on this? I'd also be particularly interested in what Jennifer Maxwell's got to say, if she feels comfortable offering something. Curious as all get out, Bob Kaven |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Grinch, I started reading some of the comments, then decided just to do this: A - How do you write good free verse. READ SERENITY B - Can somebody teach me. READ SERENITY D - Jen told me to post this here so remember to send her the complaints. GOOD C - this should have gone before D. please mentally rearrange. EXACTLY. I did see another comment from serenity before coming in here with my first thought, see above. She's right. But do it where you can edit your line breaks and see what it looks like because sometimes you'll find yourself repeating things unknowingly. Which sometimes makes the free verse poem a real poem. Don't be too antiseptic about it either. Like serenity's FV poems, she barely uses any unguent. Sometimes she even throws away the bandaids. Me, my free verse comes out as stories, usually... serenity lights up the night and screens the next day with a veil normally only the enlightened might visualize. So, read. Then read some more. Then, as serenity says, write to the page. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Yes Bob you are quite right I should have explained more precisely exactly why I liked those particular lines, but I ran out of time this morning. Partly of course I was, as I explained, starting to get ahead of where Grinch probably is at present. For instance, the comment about tenses was only really relevant if he had moved beyond the collection of disparate ideas stage. Similarly I selected out the lines I did not simply because of characteristics that made those lines superior (for some of his other ideas in isolation were just as good imv), but because they fitted my emerging idea of how I might have shaped the poem. I've always thought that trying to tell people how they should use their material is slightly dodgy, the way I look at it is that I'm absorbing Grinch's ideas and projecting them onto my own tastes and experiences and then throwing them back at him. Selfishly, that help me, no doubt about it, but hopefully it might spark a few of his synapses too. If not then, at the very least it's been fun trying. I'll probably not have time to expand on the merits of the individual lines tonight, but I'll try and make time tomorrow. I'm very grateful for the effort you are putting into this Bob. Thanks. Oh, I nearly forgot, one small thing, flattered as I am to be assigned that glorious gender, the Rob I've signed off with a couple of times regrettably wasn't actually a contraction of Roberta or Robina - In fact, glory be, we probably share the same name And yes, if Jenn is around it would be great to hear from her, though I think she's quite busy at present. ............... Karilea - are you her new agent? |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
Dear Sunshine, Not a bad start, but Serenity seems to speak pretty well for herself. What about your comments about any of the exercises, and the order or potential revision that might help Grinch in having a new look at his stuff? If you'd like to offer some, it might prove useful to Grinch and to yourself, both. It might possibly prove useful to the other folks as well. If you find this approach to writing free verse unhelpful and have something systematic or concrete to offer, please feel free to use that as well. The idea is to offer Grinch as many concrete and useful ways of approaching this as possible without diffusing the discussion into something more theoretical that could well be followed up in another thread more productively. A line or two of free verse story possibly using some of the exercise format might give Grinch and the rest of us an example how differently two people can use the same framework to generate different material. |
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Artic Wind Member Rara Avis
since 2007-09-16
Posts 8080Realm of Supernatural |
I enjoy writing free verse! ~ I think that way, you can express exactly everything your thinking, not following an exact format. I think that most of your words that you want to say will flow easier and release everything you need too! ARCTIC WIND |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
I must agree with Karilea. Serenity writes free verse effortlessly in a way people who work at it for a lifetime can't match. She is a poet that can make ME applaud free verse...and vigorously. I've seen no one even close to her, with the exception of Doreen Peri. If I wanted to write good free verse I would study how those two do it....and then still fail miserably.  |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’m beginning to think you’re right Mike, you can either write FV or you can’t and I obviously can’t. Still it was fun trying. Thanks for all the advice everyone. . |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
quote: Grinch, these are your very words. To me, with line breaks, it makes an insightful poem, free verse style. Moonbeam, I would have liked to have given Grinch "more" but I don't know that I'm qualified. I do what I do only for myself; and only just today caught up on this thread [I just found out Monday I'm currently without economic stimulus ] and hope to be visiting this thread more for not only updates on what Grinch might learn, but what I might learn.I mentioned serenity as a serious free verse person to go to for some quantitative education; I might also like to mention for Grinch and any other free verse poet, our own Martie, who can wrap words into symbols that I can only appreciate more by knowing her.  |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting that for a rhymer like me, my favorite poem is still Daddy by Sylvia Plath. No poem in any form has ever hit me in the same way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hHjctqSBwM |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
For those of you who asked me questions, thanks. For those of you who are expecting an answer... keep looking. I'm still waiting for a muse of the likes that sits on the shoulders of those like serenity, Martie, and others are are far better than myself. God knows I've tried structure. I start with structure, and then some inner voice veers off this way and yet another, and then back to structure. When they come up with a term for that, it may well be called "lyrics". In a quite unconventional sense, I'm sure. I've followed the folks that say "rhyme with the beat" of dum, dum de dem, de dum. I always seem to skip some heartbeat of that. I try, and try, and miss. So I go with what I am most comfortable with, and wish to thank those, here and now, for anyone who puts up with my verse in words that aren't and sometimes are, free. God bless you all. Grinch, I'm sure I haven't helped, but thank you for listening. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Grinch, here is an excellent critique of Daddy, showing the tricks of the trade Plath used in it's construction. Some of it may be helpful... In "Daddy", Sylvia Plath shows intense emotions towards the relationships she had with her late father and husband. The character in this poem is Plath herself and it spans across a series of decades. It starts when Plath loses her father at a very young age, "You died before I had time- " (7), at a time when Plath still loved her father unconditionally. She tries to replace her father with her husband, a man who is identical in personality and habit. Over the years, as Plath becomes older and wiser, she sees these men for their true colors. She begins to illustrate feelings of anger and resentment towards them through use of vivid metaphor, imagery, and tone. The recurrent use of the words 'shoes' and 'feet' in this poem are strong metaphors that take on different meaning as the poem proceeds. In lines two and three, "you do not do any more, black shoe in which I have lived like a foot", Plath compares herself to a foot living in a shoe, the shoe being her father. The shoe protects the foot and keeps it warm but, like a double edged sword, also traps and smothers the foot. Later in the poem the shoe is called a 'boot' (49) when the father is found to be a Nazi. In the sixth and seventh stanzas Plath describes her father as a Nazi, "I thought every German was you" (29). She calls her father a Pollack and says she is the jew ("I began to talk like a Jew. I think I may well be a Jew" 34-35). Plath never had the chance to embrace her nationality, and felt resentment towards this separation from her father. She uses 'barb wire' metaphor to illustrate this, explaining how she never felt she could talk to him, that she could hardly speak. In the ninth stanza Plath compares her father to Hitler, "your neat mustache and your Aryan eye, bright blue. Panzer-man" (43). Plath says that her father was not God but a swastika, that she has always been scared of him, and she felt like she was being sent away from him, "Chuffing me off like a Jew" (32). In lines 53 and 54 Plath not only compares her dad to Hitler but to the devil as well. In the twelfth stanza, and the three that follow that (lines 56 through 85), the poem takes a different direction and splits into a whole other story. Ten years after her fathers death Plath is still in mourning and tries to physically replace his presence in her life. She married a man who had the same look and traits as her father, "I made a model of you, a man in black with a Meinkampf look and a love of the rack and screw. And I said I do, I do" (74-77). Plath uses imagery to describe her husband as a 'vampire' an image or reflection of her father, a weaker or paler version of him who still haunts her long after his death. She again uses imagery when saying that this vampire drank her blood for seven years- Plaths marriage of seven years had drained her of life and energy. He was a brute force that oppressed Plath and hurt her, just like her father, and she in turn killed him. The tone of this poem is one of child-like outrage and adult anger. This is showed by the repetitive use of the word 'daddy' and doubling up lines like "You do not do, you do not do" (1), and "Daddy, daddy" (90). As a child she adores her father but is also a bit frightened by him. I don't think it was until Plath entered her marriage, and realized the connection between her husband and father, that she was able to see her father for what he truly was. For as Plath grows older she begins to resent who he was to her, and the tone changes from a child's to that of a fiercer woman, strong with attitude. She states in the last three stanzas, "So daddy, I'm finally through" (77) and again in the last line, "Daddy, daddy, you *edited*, I'm through" (90). It seems as though, at the end of the poem, Plath was finally able to resolve her conflict with herself and her father. ..and, Sunshine? What you do, you do well  |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Thank you, Mike. I'll never be a Plath. But I'll always be me. Your examples are exemplary. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
Karilea it wasn't me that asked you for "more" it was the wonderful and inspirational Bob. And I know neither of us would dream of asking you for more than you are capable of giving. Everyone to his or her own. |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
You see Mike your post of the "critique" of Daddy goes back to that comment you made a few days ago when you suggested that only the critiques of "experts" are valuable. I now see the problem. What you and I understand a critique to be is subtly different. What you posted above is the typical commentary that you get in school text books - an essay on "what the poem is about, and the mechanics of how it achieves that meaning", and sure, that can be part of a critique, and sure also, possibly that requires a certain in depth knowledge of historical circumstance and the poet herself, only available to an "expert". But the word critique derives from the Greek kritik, interpreted I think as "discerning judgment". And "discerning" can be defined as "exhibiting keen insight and good judgment; perceptive." This essay on Daddy exhibits practically no keen insight and little perception, it says nothing about how the reader of the poem reacts to it, it says nothing about the music, or the emotions of the reader, and what he enjoyed and what he didn't - it's simply a dry recitation or copy-cat sheet for others, probably students, to use as a template when they read the poem. It might be useful, it might not be - one thing I do know is that I was put off poetry for many years because of having that sort of thing pushed at me in school, and now I encourage young poets to read and interpret for themselves before resorting to such "expert" analysis. For me that is not what commenting on a poem is about. It's certainly not useful to the writer of the poem; and being useful to the writer of the poem (and yourself as reader) is what commenting in a forum like this is all about imho. M PS Oh gosh Mike, someone has just pointed out to me that you didn't attribute the critique you posted. I found it here: http://www.eliteskills.com/analysis_poetry/Daddy_by_Sylvia_Plath_analysis.php and just assumed you'd copied it. Now I see I may be wrong. If you wrote it I am sorry to sound somewhat harsh, because of its kind it was of course an excellent commentary [This message has been edited by moonbeam (04-02-2009 09:21 AM).] |
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Bob K Member Elite
since 2007-11-03
Posts 4208 |
The sort of analysis that Mike's offering here is always interesting stuff. I'm a big fan of Plath as well. She has a great feel and understanding of the music and sonics in poetry, and how to use them in a playful way to make even the most serious of topics work. She was a student of Robert Lowell's at Boston University writing workshop with quite a few terrific students in it, including Frank Bidart at one point, well worth reading for those who are looking; Peter Davison, who went on to win the Yale Younger Poets award and to become the Poetry Editor at The Atlantic until his recent death; Maxine Kumin, who is a Pulitzer prize winner; Anne Sexton, who shared Sylvia Plath's fate, and many others. It must have been one heck of a class. Many of the people in that class were formally trained as scholars, and they prided themselves on the scholarship to some extent. Lowell himself did a lot of translations, and while they could have done a lot of talking among themselves in this sort of "New Critical" language, it appears they mostly didn't. Mostly they were just folks talking to friend and gossiping and telling stories. They were pretty clear about the differences between talking the craft of poetry and talking the language of the scholarly study of English literature. Mostly, since they learned their livings by teaching English Literature, they talked about the craft of poetry and the fun stuff amongst themselves. I'm reading an edition of the letters between Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Lowell now, and the pattern seems to hold true there as well. I find it interesting to talk about formal scholarship myself. I like renaissance theater and modern poetry and I have a side interest in eighteenth century poetry, though I can't claim any great depth in it. But I look at that stuff as sort of a sidelight to the actual writing process, and to writing modern poetry. I can give more about writing modern free verse poetry. What about other folks? And what about Grinch, who's been sort of quiet? Do we want to continue in some fashion talking about Grinch's stuff with his input? Does somebody else have something they want to say? Do folks want to fold our tents and try another thread at some other point? Has anybody gotten anything useful out of this, and is it worth going on with it? |
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moonbeam
since 2005-12-24
Posts 2356 |
I'd still like to look at some of Grinch's lines in more detail, but I'm also trying to write a poem for Mike's workshop and think about what's going on in the other thread here, and ther's the small matter of running the rest of my life too . I think what you said about the Daddy commentary is interesting and in another life with a different educational environment I expect I'd be more impressed with it. Regrettably I blame that sort of analysis for the 20 years I wasted before becoming interested in poetry. On the other hand I suppose I can thank the same educational system for my strong lean towards contemporary poetry, which was pretty much held in contempt by the then educators. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
moonbeam, you were right the first time. I did copy that critique. I was impressed with it because it pointed several things out to me I hadn't grasped while reading the poem, like the different ways "shoes" and "feet" were used and other connections that came into play for me based on things the critique pointed out. Of course, since I am not a free verser, I can be much more easily satisfied with such explanations and I can see where some with more experience in the form, like you, might come up with the same comments you did with regards to the deficiencies presented. I'll just go back to saying I love the poem |
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JenniferMaxwell
since 2006-09-14
Posts 2423 |
“Daddy” is one of my least favorites by Plath. I can appreciate the clever bits but it’s just too ott for my taste. I much prefer. “Electra on Azalea Path”. Grinch - What you think you can’t do is far better than most of us will ever be able to do. Turned out to be a pretty good thread, wouldn’t you say? And not one complaint in my inbox. So there! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Sorry I've been so absent. I had to look up unguent. Wow. I wish Doreen could speak with me on this one, 'cause I'm left with a simple "wow". I'd like to relate a story though, because Dor and I started calling each other "Lucy" and "Harpo" after we saw our similarities mirrored--just like in that episode of "I Love Lucy"-- with Lucille Ball and Harpo Marx and the mirror...and Mike is right, Doreen and I are/were at our best when we are just tawkin'. There's no real craft as to what I do--and if Doreen has a theory you'll have to ask her. And allow her to answer. I just like to keep things...simplicated. Grinch? You just keep your elegant eloquence, with those nifty allusions and that tight meter that makes me go "argggh." Free Verse? *laughing* I don't even think I qualify...we've got Martie, Maree, Occasional Christopher, and so many others who qualify better than I to define the form. *shrug* Read them. I can't teach that sorta thing...just? Take your internal dialog and type it as fast as you can, and pretty up the form with some fine tuned editing, and hey? That is all I do. It ain't art. It ain't much. It's just me, talking to you. And I should go to bed. My head hurts like a mofo. Ciao dawlin's. *smoochies* |
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