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The Biggest Tax Cut in History

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Brad
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0 posted 02-12-2009 02:37 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad


quote:
The Democrats have been so busy defending federal spending, and denigrating the stimulative power of tax cuts, that they apparently either forgot -- or felt they couldn't -- point out something rather dramatic: the tax cuts in this stimulus plan appear to be the biggest in history.

The compromise stimulus plan includes $282 billion in tax cuts over two years.

According to the Wall Street Journal, Bush's first two years of tax cuts amounted to $174 billion. A second batch in 2004 and 2005 cost $231. And those were thought to be bigger than the tax cuts offered by Reagan, Kennedy or others.

Stevenwaldman

Whether or not it is actually the biggest is irrelevant. The point is that both sides, the media, and the people seem content with stereotypical views. Consequently, the tax cut side of things gets buried.

Why is that?

Two or three or four ideas:

1. The Dems believe they have a mandate for an activist government and that the GOP rhetorical move, "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help" is no longer quite so scary.

2. The GOP are still Hamiltonians and believe that the tax cuts won't do anything because they benefit the middle classes and not the rich.

3. It's all baloney. Nobody on either side really differs on the theoretical reality ( !). The GOP's latest power run brought some of the biggest spending increases ever.  They cut taxes. The Dems are doing the same thing.

4. Nobody has a clue. When things get complicated, we tend to fall back on stereotypes, and that's what everybody is doing now.

Balladeer
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1 posted 02-12-2009 03:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It was on the news today that the tax cuts would result in a benefit of $13.00 per week per person for the first two years and $8.00 after that.
Brad
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2 posted 02-12-2009 03:56 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

So that's 676 dollars a year or 1,352 dollars over two years.

But you're not disputing that it is a tax cut, right?

Wasn't the same discussion had here a few years ago? Maybe my memory is faulty but I seem to remember numbers about half the above.

moonbeam
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3 posted 02-12-2009 04:02 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

It's all baloney in the sense that human psychology has an effect that renders tax cuts and/or spending more or less irrelevant.  Fear and optimism rule.
Brad
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4 posted 02-12-2009 04:13 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Blue and Red: the Crips and the Bloods?
Balladeer
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5 posted 02-12-2009 04:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The fact that it is the biggest tax cut is negated by the fact that it is attached to the biggest spending bill in history.

Yes, we had similar conversations when Bush's tax cuts came out, resulting in a $500.00 per year savings. The same Democrats who poo-poo'd that one  praise this one, with about the same amount of money in question. There was a clip on tv today of Michelle Obama a year or so ago speaking about how Bush's tax rebates were so insignificant that they really didn't help anything. Think she feels that way about her husband's? Not likely.

One person om tv today (didn't catch his name) made one statement that said a lot to me. He said "Remember Y2K." Y2K was supposed to create major disasters if not dealt with - airplanes falling from the skies and all kinds of major mayhem. Did it happen? Nope...and not because we stopped it. It was never a major issue at all.

Democrats are the "crisis" party. They constantly scream crisis. Housing crisis, educational crisis, environmental crisis, health crisis....you name a crisis and they have used it. Gore was the crisis king. Obama has since replaced him with his prediction that the country will never survive if his plans are not enacted immediately. So we are turning over the running of the business of our country to people who have never run a business, like Pelosi, Reid and Obama. Democrats want to be known as crisis solvers, even if they have to create the crisis to solve.

So what is Obama doing now? He's giving speeches in towns with high unemployment, towns with depressed housing markets, the Caterpillar factory - the man is still on the campaign trail doing the only thing he knows how to do - give speeches. Why isn't he back in Washington, dealing with this plan that is so crucial to the country? Simple, he gave it to Pelosi to create, and then to the congress to get pushed through. He's basically an outsider to the whole thing. He just makes speeches.
moonbeam
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6 posted 02-12-2009 05:02 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
He's giving speeches in towns with high unemployment, towns with depressed housing markets, the Caterpillar factory - the man is still on the campaign trail doing the only thing he knows how to do - give speeches. Why isn't he back in Washington, dealing with this plan that is so crucial to the country?

Perhaps he understands that more money alone (whether as tax cuts or govt spending) won't solve this (un-Democrat-made) crisis.  What will solve it is lifting people into the a mental state where they believe the economy and their welfare are going to recover.  You don't do that by squirreling yourself in the White House and pushing paper around, when other people can push it for you.
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7 posted 02-12-2009 05:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

lifting people into the a mental state where they believe the economy and their welfare are going to recover

yep....ONLY if you accept his plan immediately. Otherwise, the country is gone. The tactic seems to be strike the fear of God in them and then tell them everything will be ok...and be sure to go to the hardest hit areas for full impact. It would be interesting if he held a meeting with hundreds of small business owners to preach the same.

Interesting one would think that pushing paper would be all he would have to contribute to in Washington, especially considering it's HIS plan.
Brad
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8 posted 02-12-2009 05:44 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Mike,

By making speeches, you mean advocating policy change, right? It could also be that he's trying to connect with people "in towns with high unemployment, towns with depressed housing markets . . . ."

Do you think his time would be better spent behind closed doors?

Do you think we're in a crisis or not?

Nick Gillespie, at Reason, seems to be arguing that it's already too late. I don't know. I do know that Obama isn't the only one pushing for the stimulus.  

I also know that the GOP has yet to regroup. I do not see anything resembling a clear alternative to the stimulus.

turtle
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9 posted 02-12-2009 06:00 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Recieved this email today, and wonder if everyone plans on paying their taxes?

Are we not in a precarious predicament?

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-world-almost-came-to-end-at-2pm-on.html
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10 posted 02-12-2009 06:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Brad, I think his time would be better spent BEING behind those closed doors, showing the American people that he is involved, that he is there, fight for his plan...after all, it IS his plan, according to him. He's acting like a little league coach, going to the movie instead of being at the game, and saying, "I TOLD them how to play. it's up to them now."

Are we in a crisis? I can't answer that, Brad. We are certainly in bad times. Are those times bad enough to cause the destruction of the United States or are they one of the stages capitalism goes through on occassion? There is high unemployment, but nothing we haven't seen before. Could we get through it without such a massive stimulus package? I happen to think we could because I believe in our ability to get through time like these. I find it both irritating and suspect that so much pork has been packed into this bill, almost as if this atmosphere of gloom, doom and destruction is being perpetrated to get things into this bill in the most inobtrusive way possible. The stronger they rant about the imperative nature of the bill and the catastrophic consequences should it not pass simply makes my suspicions stronger.
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11 posted 02-12-2009 06:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

interesting side note...

Just saw on ABC News Obama at the Caterpillar factory tellingthe workers that Jim (head of Caterpillar) said that, with the passage of the stimulus bill, they would be able to hire back some of the laid off people. After the conference was over, "Jim" said that what Obama said had been inaccurate, that there was little doubt that there would be MORE layoffs, due to the package being light on the heavy equipment industry.

I'm getting flashbacks of Al Gore here. Why would someone flat out lie knowing it could be easily refuted??
Grinch
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12 posted 02-12-2009 06:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Why would someone flat out lie knowing it could be easily refuted??


I donít know, maybe Jim canít stop himself, or were you perhaps just jumping to the conclusion that it was Obama who lied?


Balladeer
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13 posted 02-12-2009 06:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wow...you have just outdone yourself, Grinch. Congrats...
Grinch
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14 posted 02-12-2009 07:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Thanks Mike,

BTW Iíve decided I donít like this Jim guy. Look at the evidence, he lays a bunch of workers off, then promises the President of the United States that heís going to take them all back on but as soon as Obama leaves heís already planning to lay off more men!

He doesnít sound too trustworthy to me.



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15 posted 02-12-2009 07:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I will certainly agree that SOMEBODY in this scenario doesn't sound trustworthy..
Tim
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16 posted 02-12-2009 09:28 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

All tax cuts are not created equal.
To stimulate the economy, you will need to put the tax cut in the margins where the relief will provide an incentive to either spend or invest.  (Hopefully invest)
It also helps if the tax cuts are permanent, rather than a temporary rebate.
It is somewhat hard to know exactly what is in the package as in the name of bipartisanship, the only individuals allowed to have input or even view the package until is passed will apparently be the Democrats in Congress.
In any event, by capping a tax rebate at a low income means anyone over the 8,000+ has no incentive to earn anything more and certainly not to invest.
Since we won't have the withholding tables until June, any effect will not be immediate.
One would question whether putting an extra 10 to 12 dollars a month in folks' paychecks will cause them to all jump up and down and say, "Hallelujah, we have been saved from Armegeddon," even those at the lower end of the economic spectrum.
If one of the trade-offs is to return to the pre-Clinton welfare (The Clinton welfare reform was indeed true bipartisanship)
and have the biggest spending bill in history, then just maybe we ought to look again or at least take the time study the issue.  
My daddy told me once when you have a fire, you best check the bucket first to make sure it has water in it rather than gasoline before you start pouring.
He also told me the only thing more dangerous than ignorance is arrogance...  er..
maybe that was Einstien.
Denise
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17 posted 02-13-2009 02:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It sounds like Washington could sure use some of your daddy's wisdom there, Tim.
Huan Yi
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18 posted 02-13-2009 02:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I just have to wonder how much
of the problem is the change
to Mark to Market.

>
Brad
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19 posted 02-14-2009 02:29 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

So let's see:

At least no one is disputing that it is a tax cut and that it is the largest in history.

But Denise, Mike, Tim, and the rest aren't so happy. I'm perfectly happy to agree that the stimulus package probably doesn't go far enough and that includes the tax cuts. That was pretty much my thinking in 2001 too.

They don't do much.

Mike,

I'm not sure what you mean by bad times as opposed to crisis. Krugman calls this the worst economic crisis in seventy years.  His worry is that the government isn't doing enough even with the stimulus package.

And yeah, it has to be done quickly.

We are erring on the side of caution. That's generally not a sign of arrogance but a lack of confidence.

The Left isn't rocking the boat, and the Right has gone down below, deciding to wait for the tide to come.

Meanwhile, we're still stuck.
Tim
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20 posted 02-14-2009 10:08 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

No doubt we are engaging in the politics of fear.  "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" has taken on a new meaning with this admininstration.

Either you accept our way or we are doomed. Bipartisanship has become, "Here is what we are going to do.  You will have no input in the outcome, and if you fail to accept it, then you are obstructionists who want to destroy the country."

The party out of power is supposed to fight for its position.  That is the form of our government.  No amount of rhetoric can change that fact, and if it does, then we will be in a serious kind of hurt.

We have erred on the side of caution?  The Democrats aren't rocking the boat?  The right has gone below?

The Democrats, most notably Pelosi and Reid have hijacked the ship with the President on the sidelines engaging in rhetoric and doing little to provide "Hope and Change" other than continuing his campaigning.  It might be time to leave the campaigning behind and doing a little leading.

The Republicans have not gone below, they have been put in the hold and told they have no say in the process.  

We did err on the side of caution, we threw caution to the wind and enacted the largest spending bill in history without any Senator or Congressman knowing fully is contained in the bill.  Again, the Republicans were allowed no input in the bill despite their efforts to do so.

The bright side is the Republicans have again found their voice with the assistance of the Democrats.  Let's hope it isn't too late.
Grinch
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21 posted 02-14-2009 12:15 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I will certainly agree that SOMEBODY in this scenario doesn't sound trustworthy..


I think itís that Jim bloke Mike, he wouldnít know the truth if it bit him on the ear - maybe heís a Brit.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D96ATHTG0.htm

Huan Yi
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22 posted 02-14-2009 09:08 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



.


Obama is probably very simply
out of his depth.

.
moonbeam
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23 posted 02-15-2009 04:10 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Think of it as a bush fire, a hurricane an asteroid John - we are ALL out of our depth.

Yes Grinch bound to be , but then aren't all white Americans Brits or Irish? Give or take a few exceptions here and there.
 
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