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For Brad

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moonbeam
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25 posted 02-26-2009 04:46 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I agree with you Bob in the sense that you are using the word "form".  Perhaps Turtle is defining the word more narrowly.
Bob K
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26 posted 02-26-2009 05:38 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Perhaps so.  Charles Olson "On Projective Verse" remains a thought provoking essay on an alternative sense of form applicable to "Free Verse," nevertheless.  I have difficulty with W.C.W.'s notion of "The variable foot."  There is always some sort of structure necessary because structure is part of what helps construct closure, which is central to any sort of poetry, most especially lyric poetry.

     It doesn't need to be syllabics or syllable stress or weight, but there does need to be some sense of structure for the reader to sense to grasp the sense of progression on a level beyond that of story, so that there can be an interplay back and forth between them to create the tension that helps move poems along.

     Or so I'm thinking at this particular late night moment.
Brad
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27 posted 02-26-2009 07:55 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Bob,

I almost completely agree. I think the problem though is that there's a confusion between poetry (genre) and poetry (good).

I don't get the variable foot idea at all. My guess is that it might be called a semantic foot but that seems to multiply terms unnecessarily. It confuses more than it clarifies.

For anyone interested, I also suggest Charles Hartman's "Free Verse: An Essay on Prosody".

Turtle,

This is getting interesting.
turtle
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28 posted 02-26-2009 06:30 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your chain of logic has an excluded middle in the midst of one of the syllogisms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah Bob, I thought I missed a step or two. I haven't done these in a hundred years  lol
Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In fact both free verse and formal verse are verse that has form.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah Bob,,,,,,I thought that was what I said, but I think you mean this in a slightly

different way than I do. Free verse is a poetry form that is free from syllabic verse

but it still has its own conventions and that makes it a poetry form.


Hi moonbeam - When I use form to mean poetry is a form of art. I am using a

general term. When I say that a poetry form has nothing to do with wether a

poem is art I am referring to the form specific (Poetry forms)


Hi Brad - you're right there is a confusion of what is good based on genre when

actually the genre has nothing to do with it.


As far as what is free verse structure, In the sense that all poetry forms have

rules and conventions that distingush one form from another makes free verse

another poetry form.


To say that free verse is a better poetry form than structured verse is like saying

that a Ford is better than a Chevy. One guy could buy a Ford that is not a lemon, and

another could buy a  Chevy that is a lemon, but that doesn't make a Ford

better than a Chevy. It only means that the one vehicle (and only that one vehicle)

was better constructed than the other.


The main function of any vehicle is to get from point A to point B and if both the

Ford and the Chevy do that, then all one could say is that the Ford and the Chevy

are similar and serve a similar purpose, but different. Anything other than that is

just an opinion.

turtle  
Bob K
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29 posted 02-26-2009 07:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Turtle,

           Wax on!

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
turtle
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30 posted 02-27-2009 12:54 AM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Turtle,

Wax on!

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bob.....

It's not a good idea to wax turtles


Bob,....

Am I wrong here?

I'm beginning to think you don't like turtles.......

As a matter of fact,... I'm beginning to think you are
having cruel and unusual feelings toward turtles..........


Bob,....

Please don't make me think about calling the SPCA.



(chuckle)
Bob K
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31 posted 02-27-2009 03:46 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mr. T.,

                  Any Turtle with a sense of humor is a turtle that's fine with me.  I'm quite find of turtles.

Sincerely,  Mr. Bob  


Bob K
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32 posted 02-27-2009 03:47 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mr. T.,

                  Any Turtle with a sense of humor is a turtle that's fine with me.  I'm quite find of turtles.  

Sincerely,  Mr. Bob  


Student:  "Professor Quackenbush!  Professor Quackenbush!  The Dean's outside and he's waxing wroth!"

Groucho: " Well, give Roth a cloth and have him wax the dean a while!"


[This message has been edited by Bob K (02-27-2009 08:59 PM).]

turtle
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33 posted 02-28-2009 05:14 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle


Quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheer Playfulness and Deadly Seriousness are my closest friends.

Philip Roth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


lol

very clever Bob
Brad
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34 posted 02-28-2009 07:47 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I wonder if we might say that form (any form) is a necessary but insufficient condition of good poetry.

Trivial?

Perhaps but I've said this before: Poetry is not form, not content (these are abstractions) but how they work together.

That is why I think it's worth bringing up.

You got blank verse that isn't working for you?

Try breaking the meter.

You got free verse that isn't rocking your world.

Try iambic and see what happens.

turtle
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35 posted 02-28-2009 09:37 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Excellent Brad! That is exactly my thinking and there are examples right here at PIP.

Take Allogene's sonnet: He chose the wrong form for his poem, but is that the forms fault?

Take my recent post "Metaphor" I did it in free verse because I'm looking for my voice in
free verse, but I know in my heart that poem would have been better in a metrical meter to
echo the hurdy gurdy organ.

Poetry forms are tools used by the poet to best present his idea. It then merely boils down
to the skill and talent of the poet to pick the right form for his poem.

Saying that one form is better than another, or "The American Poetry Form" only serves to
place undue limitations on the talent and freedom of thought of the writer.

But, I don't see it as a matter of trial and error, because there are guidlines and suggestions
at the writer's fingertips to use; as well as examples of how they are used. This then simply
becomes a matter of skill.

ie. If I want to write in the sentiment of EB Browning,
I might look at the meter she uses in a similar poem.

Bob K
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36 posted 02-28-2009 10:13 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Think, possibly, rhetoric, strategy and closure as well as meter.  There's lots of iambic pentameter around, yet not much Sir John Davies to give an example of movement, as in "Orchestra or a Poem of Dauncing."  His iambic pentameter and Samuel Daniel's iambic pentameter seem to carry very different sorts of music, don't they?  Meter is interesting, but only carries an (important, granted) piece of the story.  Stance, for me, is an extraordinarily important piece, as well as voice.  And the beat goes on.
turtle
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37 posted 03-01-2009 01:07 AM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

I think this is kind of opening up a can of worms though Bob. Rhetoric and
stance require telling and poetry is about showing. That is what things like
metaphor, simile, and double intendre are for. To help sweeten and smooth a
message. Lately, what I do....or try to do, is put the message in the telling
of the story. Something I conjured up when thinking about the Trickster.

But, this is getting away from forms and delving into meter, prosity,
syntax, presentation in general, a hugh subject.Many writers
believe there is this or that form that is more suited to them and
I just don't see it that way. After all poetry is for the reader. The
form that works best for the poem is the one best for the reader.

      
Bob K
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38 posted 03-01-2009 04:37 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Different training and experience here.  The poet follows the poem to the places where the poem is most alive, wherever that may lead.  The poet's loyalty is to the poem.  Nobody says that you have to show or publish everything you write.  You base that on stuff that happens when the poem's done.  Maybe it's a poem for sharing, maybe it's simply a personal document that doesn't leave your notebook.  If you try to publish it, it should be readable and should communicate at least as well as prose, preferably better.  The decision to try to publish is a later decision, though.  If you try to impose that on everything, you set yourself up for writer's block and for limiting the exploratory process that writing poems provides.  One or two poems not for publication early on may bring you to a point where a larger poem on that theme may become accessible where it would have been walled off beforehand.  The earlier poems allowed that process and that imagery to open up.  To quote the punch line of a very old very bad joke whose setup cannot be repeated here, "A guy's got to clear his throat first, doesn't he?"

     He does.
turtle
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39 posted 03-01-2009 05:59 AM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Yes much of this I can see  I do have a little different perspective - as might be expected. Being a lefty I see art in almost everything. For me it is about sharing. It is the moving of the heart and stirring of the soul that motivates me. If I want to show you something with my eyes, and perspective, then I need to give you my eyes for you to see it.

For me, The poet creates the story to take the reader to places where his perspective is most alive in their minds.

For me, The poet's loyalty is to the reader of the poem.

Showing is a motivation, but publication should not be - You're right.

Not sure about the early life poems......most of mine are bad....lol

BTW - If your writing gets any smaller I may
have to stop responding (Squint)

Bob K
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40 posted 03-01-2009 08:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Turtle,

          A poem you write today can be an early poem for a poem you write three years from now.  You don't know.
Indeed, most of the poems I write are terrible and end up remaining in my notebooks in form that's as finished as I can make them.  I will go back over the notebooks in a year or five of fifteen and something will jump out at me, and I will be able to make use of it and push it further.  Sometimes it will remain a draft and return to the notebooks, sometimes it's good enough to send out someplace.  

     Sometimes I send it out someplace and I'm really wrong about it being ready to go out.  At those times, 1) I feel really stupid; and, 2) I understand that editors are my friends, and that they're there to, as best they can, keep me from making a fool out of myself in public.  It's been a real turnaround in my attitude toward editors over the years.  There's nothing like having some things in print you wish weren't to keep you a bit more grateful.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Bob K
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41 posted 03-01-2009 08:31 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Turtle,

          A poem you write today can be an early poem for a poem you write three years from now.  You don't know.
Indeed, most of the poems I write are terrible and end up remaining in my notebooks in form that's as finished as I can make them.  I will go back over the notebooks in a year or five of fifteen and something will jump out at me, and I will be able to make use of it and push it further.  Sometimes it will remain a draft and return to the notebooks, sometimes it's good enough to send out someplace.  

     Sometimes I send it out someplace and I'm really wrong about it being ready to go out.  At those times, 1) I feel really stupid; and, 2) I understand that editors are my friends, and that they're there to, as best they can, keep me from making a fool out of myself in public.  It's been a real turnaround in my attitude toward editors over the years.  There's nothing like having some things in print you wish weren't to keep you a bit more grateful.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
turtle
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42 posted 03-02-2009 01:39 AM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Bob.........

Your repeating yourself Bob......

Bob........

Am I wrong here?

I'm beginning to think you don't like edtiors Bob.........

Hmmm....

Good point, probably better to wait on publication until one can
go back over their work using age and experience to fix the
stupidity........Maybe not.....lol
Bob K
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43 posted 03-02-2009 03:47 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Apparently I ended up double printing a comment.  Clearly it must have been really interesting.

     Twice as interesting as usual.  I do tend to like editors, with the occasional exception.  Not many exceptions, though, they tend to work their buns off for mostly no dough and little appreciation.  Lots of them are poets, too, so they know what the grind is like.
turtle
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44 posted 03-02-2009 05:03 AM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

All seriousness aside.....

Well now, you are putting ideas in my head. I'm trying to compile my work.
Of what you've seen of it, do you think any of these publishers might be
interest?

Bob K
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45 posted 03-02-2009 08:23 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Haven't seen very much of your stuff.

     Have you read very many contemporary magazines and poets?  Have you had a look at Poet's Marketplace?  Do you have any favorite contemporary magazines and writers?

     Publishers, to say the obvious, are interested in publishing folks that are of interest to other writers who are writing now, if only because a lot of the editors are writers who are writing now, and they like to publish what they like to read.

     I'd be happy to talk more about this if you want.
turtle
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46 posted 03-02-2009 09:46 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

No........

Thanks Bob, I'm well aware of what the

Market is looking for.

Bob K
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47 posted 03-03-2009 09:52 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     I'm reading Glacier Wine, which has a fairly high proportion of formal verse in it, by Maura Stanton.  If you haven't had a shot at her stuff, this is a very fine collection.  There are a few sonnets in there that make my hair stand up and tap dance down the length of my spine.  Much of the rest of the stuff is equally as good.

[This message has been edited by Bob K (03-04-2009 03:21 AM).]

turtle
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48 posted 03-03-2009 10:44 PM       View Profile for turtle   Email turtle   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for turtle

Is this a book you're reading or is there a link online?

Bob K
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49 posted 03-04-2009 05:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It's a book I'm reading.  I find her stuff worth owning.  You might see what you can find online, of course.  She's written several books of poems, most of them very good indeed.
 
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