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Is the New Bill Stimulating or Pork?

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Local Rebel
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125 posted 02-17-2009 02:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So then, Tim...

If you're looking at a page that consists of printed text, and, hand-written markups with pen and ink.... those hand-written markups don't jump off the page and clearly denote what's been changed?

C'mon guys...

If you're against the stimulus package on ideological grounds -- like the fact that it spends money here instead of Iraq -- just complain about that.

Don't try to invent procedural issues to cavil about.
moonbeam
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126 posted 02-17-2009 02:51 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Oh Rebel, you cometh not a moment too soon.

My Hero
Huan Yi
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127 posted 02-17-2009 06:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“"Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before."

So said White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel  . . .”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html


So it's not like intent was secret . . .

.
Tim
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128 posted 02-17-2009 07:14 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Rebel,

I would say you pretty much proved my point.

I hadn't brought up the handwritten notes that were on the five copies provided to congress late in the evening with the vote to occur the next day.

The lobbyists had better access to the final bill than congressmen.

But to have the largest spending bill in our history presented in its final form with handwritten notes and not presented in time so those voting could adequately review what was contained therein?

Yep, we do indeed live in parallel universes.  I object when Republicans act in that fashion; I object when Democrats act in that fashion- because it is politics behind closed doors of which I am not in favor.  

Spin it any way you want and call it quibbling.  As stated, anyone who feels the passage of the stimulus package was an example of democracy at its finest lives in a different universe than I.


Balladeer
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129 posted 02-17-2009 07:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Oh Rebel, you cometh not a moment too soon.  My Hero .

How about that, reb. You're a hero...even to those who claim to be completely non-biased  

If you're against the stimulus package on ideological grounds -

You must have skipped the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread. We HAVE complained about it on a variety of grounds, mainly because it declares a crisis which many professors of economics claim does not exist, because it is a Democrat wish list filled with items that do nothing to spur the economy but spreads money to their districts and friendy groups as paybacks, and a variety of other reasons. Invent procedural issues? Obviously these issues were valid anough to be spoken of on every major network and I can assure you I didn't invent them.

Hey, if you're for the stimulus bill because it's a partisan democratic endeavor, just say so. Nitpicking on other issues doesn't work any better than moonbeam's sarcasm. Close your eyes (and hold your nose) to everything else and you will still be Moonbeam's hero  
Local Rebel
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130 posted 02-17-2009 08:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

But to have the largest spending bill in our history presented in its final form with handwritten notes and not presented in time so those voting could adequately review what was contained therein?



But Tim?  It didn't matter.  Remember the mantra?  The Republicans weren't allowed any input in the process.  Not one of them voted for the initial bill (thereby illustrating that there isn't one Republican willing to stand up to the weakest Republican leadership in a century -- this bodeth not well for Republicans I fear) -- why would any of them vote for 'secret' modifications that would be non-Republican anyway?  They had no need for time to read in order to vote nay.  

But, I kid, I kid the Republicans.

It's not like Congressmen have staffers, or interns that they could divy up those midnight parcels amongst and ask for a report on anything that might cause the party or district some heartburn.

And -- since the Republicans in the House were'nt allowed ANY opportunity to have input (clearing my throat) let's see, what happened in the Senate?  Oh... compromise -- to get Republicans to vote for the bill.... hmmm..... seems like changes and modifications were running the other way TIM -- towards the conservatives.

So, nope, your point is categorically not proven here.
_________

Mike -- I know that YOU didn't invent the procedural snafu -- it was invented by the aformentioned weakest Republican leadership in a century -- because they really don't have any meat and potatos to gripe about here.  If they can't get how dis-interested the American people are in this inside baseball stuff then they are everybit as much the charicatures SNL made them out to be on Saturday night.  First -- they didn't have any input -- then -- they didn't have time to read it.  Politically astute.  

And, You mean there are professors who actually claim that the banking industry hasn't melted down?  That the real estate bubble didn't burst?  That people in Elkhart, Indiana aren't fighting for computer terminals at the library to file for unemployment?  That the auto industry is fine?  That ... oh heck, I'm not going to type all night.

Seems to me there were some nut-cases out there who claimed the Bush administration was behind the 9-11 attacks too... hmm.... maybe we should get them together with your economists?

quote:

How about that, reb. You're a hero...even to those who claim to be completely non-biased  



Being completely non-biased I'll take that compliment right handed...  
Balladeer
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131 posted 02-17-2009 10:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

And, You mean there are professors who actually claim that the banking industry hasn't melted down?  That the real estate bubble didn't burst?  That people in Elkhart, Indiana aren't fighting for computer terminals at the library to file for unemployment?  That the auto industry is fine?  That ... oh heck, I'm not going to type all night.

Once again, your cynicism won't carry the day. The professors, along with everyone else, know that there are problems to overcome. No, they don't believe that this is the "crisis that will destroy the United States" unless Obama's bill is passed immediately. Unemployment? Yes, although lower than in Jimmy Carter's reign. They do not question a critical situation - they question Obama's plan as being the answer, a plan which includes many things that won't even be initiated for a year or two, a plan that contains a myriad of things having nothing to do with stimulating the income, a plan that has more pork than Green Acres.

What pork? Apparently you haven't spent much time reading this thread. Actually, there is quite a bit of information in it. Such as this...

The White House "want[s] to keep the Speaker happy and the traditional Democratic leaders, but they've let them know privately they're not interested in all this pork," he (democratic respresentative from Tennessee Jim Cooper) said. Even decent democrats acknowledge the pork in the bill. You want to tell him he's wrong?

Oh, and as far as those professors, here's one..

Professor Michael Porter is boyish in his enthusiasm. His work may be taught at most business schools in the world, but he's no ivory-tower pedant
Professor Porter, who sweeps his hands expansively through the air while talking at a hundred miles a hour, has been called "the doyen of living management gurus", a pillar of Harvard Business School and author of textbooks on competitive advantage and strategy. Professor Porter has also advised various governments on economic policy and in the past was picked out to lead a presidential commission by Ronald Reagan.
So when he expresses concern that the US government's economic stimulus package has not targeted the right areas, it's worth listening to his arguments. In his opinion, much of it displays "the usual pork-barrel, favourite projects" and he insists that America ought to be identifying the fundamental challenges facing its economy and the country and investing in those.

He professes to have enormous respect for President Obama's economic team, but tempers that with a concern that he "would like to see some more business expertise and credentials in his people". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7872874.stm  


Yes, I know. What does a professor ofthe Harvard business school know? Quite possibly more than you and I. There are more than one hundred economists who have come forth to state that Obama's plan will not solve the situation. You are going to tell them they're idiots? Be my guest.

If you would like to enlighten us on why you think it's a good plan, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, just knocking the people who oppose it for kicks serves no purpose.
Local Rebel
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132 posted 02-17-2009 10:44 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Um... Mike?

Where does Porter say there isn't a crisis?

Your thesis;

quote:

mainly because it declares a crisis which many professors of economics claim does not exist,



So then -- you agree with Porter -- we need fewer tax cuts and more spending on healthcare, education, reasearch and development?

Here, here -- I'm all for that my good man!  

just wait a little longer than three weeks though to say it hasn't been done...

Local Rebel
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133 posted 02-17-2009 10:59 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

If you would like to enlighten us on why you think it's a good plan, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, just knocking the people who oppose it for kicks serves no purpose.



As if I haven't been saying it for ten years Mike..... http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/000685.html

Depreciation, depreciation, depreciation...

get rid of it.

Give tax credits for business investmenst instead.

Depreciation makes it look, on the books, that investing in plants and equipment has no value -- that the only real value is brand name, shelf space, and market share.... which is why jobs keep vanishing to overseas manufacturing.

In the short term though -- which is what an emergency indicates, putting money into the economy is what is needed to at least stop the bleeding of 500,000 jobs per month.

the breakdown... http://www.recovery.gov/

Balladeer
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134 posted 02-17-2009 11:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree with Porter when he says that "the US government's economic stimulus package has not targeted the right areas" and that it is filled with routine pork-barrel projects.

Not sure I get the three week reference. The bill was only signed today. Our brave new world has just begun.

Local Rebel
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135 posted 02-17-2009 11:19 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The three week reference Mike is that it's only been three weeks and one bill through Congress.  

Do you think this is the only bill that's going to be going through for the next 4 years?  Does Porter?

What Porter is calling 'Pork' Mike -- is what this bill was designed to do in the first place -- fund the shovel-ready jobs and shore up local and state governments that are in dire straits due to revenue shortfalls from the econmic woes that are a CRISIS.

This bill is not a long-term strategy and was never intended to be -- it was intended to be a hit-the-ground running off the jump-ball.  

More spending is coming.

Tim
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136 posted 02-17-2009 11:21 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

We will have to disagree.

I will not convince you and I have heard nothing to change my view.

The only thing I am relative certain is if the parties had been reversed, I would still object to the manner in the bill was passed.  

If you want to tell me that if the Republicans had done the same to the Democrats your view would be the same, then our difference is our understanding of politics and the legislative process.  I will rely on my life experiences in that regard.

If you would object to the Republicans operating in such a fashion, then your arguments are based upon partisanship.
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137 posted 02-17-2009 11:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

it was intended to be a hit-the-ground running off the jump-ball.  

Really? Then why are so many parts of it not due to be initiated before 2010-2011?

Actually, what Porter called pork is....pork. Dumping money into the economy is good. Dumping it in the right places is better.
Local Rebel
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138 posted 02-17-2009 11:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Because that's when they CAN be initiated.  What you and he are calling pork is a pretty good meal for those state and local governments.  Are you suddenly too kosher to stomach repairing and maintaining bridges?  If we waited for 6 months then they would wait for six more months and be that much further out Mike.

The best is the enemy of the good.

Porter wants the best, I want the best, you want the best -- Porter's best and mine are closer to being in line than your best I'm sure -- but, what does he know?  He's a Harvard economist.

The best can come later.

Right now there are people who need unemployment benefits extended, houses that need to be bought, foreclosures avoided, jobs saved.  
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139 posted 02-17-2009 11:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Congress is doing great things to stimulate the economy. Since their grilling of business executives using jets, sales of over 40 jets have been cancelled and over 100 people laid off. Business conventions have gone down so drastically that resort areas have petitioned congress to basically "shut up".

Suzie Ormond went on Oprah and told the audience to "stop eating in restaurants", apparently with no regard for restaurant owners, managers, waiters, cashiers, busboys or anybody else. Can you imagine how many thousands of restaurants are burning Suzie and Oprah in effigy?

It's going to get worse......
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140 posted 02-17-2009 11:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, the insulting begins. You think I have a problem with repairing bridges, reb? What I have a problem with is getting hookers off the streets, spending millions on golf carts, more millions on bee insurance, millions on uppgrading governmental offices, billions to groups like ACORN, etc etc etc.

You completely ignore a democratic congressman who speaks of all the pork in the plan, ignore the fact that he acknowledged that even the White House was concerned about the amount of pork in the plan, and continue on your merry way speaking of their being no pork in the plan. I think perhaps they know better than you.

Porter's best and mine are closer to being in line than your best I'm sure As sure as you know there's no pork in the bill? You have no idea what my best is, reb, so your assumptions are unwelcome and invalid.
moonbeam
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141 posted 02-18-2009 04:17 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Balladeer:

quote:
Ah, the insulting begins.


Balladeer:

quote:

How about that, reb. You're a hero...even to those who claim to be completely non-biased  

I don't think you're in any position to call people for being insulting Mike.

But for the record you're putting words into my mouth again.  I've never claimed to be "completely non-biased".  And you still haven't told me where all the anti-Republican remarks you tell me I have made, are.

But notwithstanding this, I wasn't of course applauding Rebel for his political or economic stance (which in point of fact I don't entirely agree with), but for this:
quote:
Don't try to invent procedural issues to cavil about.


Local Rebel
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142 posted 02-18-2009 06:02 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Mike, one thing I'm not going to speculate on is why you want to keep hookers on the streets, but, since I imagine you are a fan of food, and agriculture in general -- I'm not at all sure why you think it would be a good thing to lose a third of our crop producing capability due to the loss of pollenization that looms in a future without bees -- that have just been dying since 2006 -- along with the bee-keeping industry that will immediately start hiring back bee-keepers and replenishing hives with the money that's in the stimulus bill.

And -- I imagine that YOU might want to try to use your new neighborhood plug in vehicle as a golf cart -- but I don't think the country club is going to let you since they are designed for street use.  Here's a 2500 dollar tax credit that encourages people to buy a product (makes jobs) reduces our dependence on foreign oil (that's the part you don't like right?) and reduces our carbon footprint -- keeping Florida out of the ocean -- you gotta love that        

I'm sure if you went through the whole list you'd find something that I might think smells a little like bacon -- but, I'd just reasearch it and find the beef.  But, you know that already.

quote:

You have no idea what my best is, reb, so your assumptions are unwelcome and invalid.



I already gave you the opportunity to agree with Porter's 'best' and you passed on it -- only citing;

quote:

I agree with Porter when he says that "the US government's economic stimulus package has not targeted the right areas" and that it is filled with routine pork-barrel projects.



-- that you both disagree with certain portions of the stimulus bill.

If you're claiming that after 10 years we all don't know your politics and ideology -- why have you been bothering to tell us?  Do you think you're that bad at expressing your own opinions my good man?  Or has your position been evolving along with Greenspan's?

(edited to include link)


[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (02-18-2009 08:15 AM).]

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143 posted 02-18-2009 08:42 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Do you think you're that bad at expressing your own opinions my good man?

Could be that I am, reb. I've never claimed to be a great orator. I simply state things like I think they are. Interestingly enough, there are actually some people here that do understand them. If you are not one, we can both live with that.

No one has said that some action is not needed. You speak of knowing the answer for the past 10 years about what needs to be done. That's fine, but the question still is why do you think THIS stimulus bill in it's present form is the solution to those problems. We speak of the pork and you bring up bridge repair. We speak of earmarks and you bring up unemployment. No one claims that the infrastructure repairs and jobs produced is not a good thing. No one claims that bringing down unemployment is not a good thing. The question, which you avoid, is why THIS bill is the one so vital that the US cannot exist without it. You avoid once again even the democratic distaste for the pork in it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Yes, LR, after 10 years we all know your politics and ideology, also, and Denise hit it right when she said that, if this were a republican congress trying to shove through a bill like this and in the manner they did, you would be screaming bloody murder at the tactics and politics of it.  

Of COURSE yould find the beef in any objection or example of the pork....at least the beef as you know it. If it were a republican bill, you would look at the beef and undoubtedly find the worm larvae.

Go ahead and disregard the input of all of the economy experts who have spoken out against it, the facts they have cited and all of the evidence to the contrary. You are for the bill in it's current state because it's a democrat bill...period. If the past 10 years has taught us anything, it's that. If you don't have the straightforwardness to acknowledge that, then by all means continue extolling the virtues of million dollar golf carts,$650 million for digital TV coupons, $150 million for the Smithsonian, $87 million for a "polar ice breaking ship", and all of the rest of the pork which others have no problem admitting to but you say doesn't exist.

The question is...if a tree falls in the forest, did a Republican chop it down?
Brad
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144 posted 02-18-2009 03:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Denise hit it right when she said that, if this were a republican congress trying to shove through a bill like this and in the manner they did, you would be screaming bloody murder at the tactics and politics of it.


Well, there's 2006 and I thought we were criticizing the Dems for being weenies, for not standing up to the Bush administration. The reason they went limp was a power play of course. They knew they had the momentum and didn't want to rock the boat.

With that said, unlike LR (Hey, can you stick around?), I'm not sure where you stand, Mike, on this whole thing.

1. Do you think we need a stimulus plan?

2. Is it this particular plan that bothers you?

Republicans are not giving a clear picture here. I hear both arguments, but as far as I can tell, the only thing uniting them right now is the attempt to discredit Obama as quickly as possible.

I'm not saying that that's what you're trying to do (nor for that matter do I think Denise, Tim, or anybody else here is trying to do that), but the level of rhetoric in that last month everywhere sure points in that direction.

I don't know. Again, it all comes down to how serious you think the crisis really is. If you think this is just a bump in the road toward "business as usual" or a "return to normalcy", it's hard to fault GOPers for the tactics they use. That's what an adversarial game is. On the other hand, if you think the situation is the worst in seventy years, are these strategies in the best interests of the country?

Again, I don't know. I don't want to play "the best interest of the country" card because I do remember hearing that refrain played over and over again during the last administration. I also remember arguing that that rhetorical move requires a declaration of war, something that never happened.

On the other hand, I don't see how we can have a substantive discussion without first agreeing on the problem.

And what about clarifying the limits of executive power?
    

[This message has been edited by Brad (02-18-2009 05:43 PM).]

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145 posted 02-18-2009 05:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm not sure where you stand, Mike, on this whole thing.
1. Do you think we need a stimulus plan?
2. Is it this particular plan that bothers you?


Those are excellent questions, Brad. I won't pretend to be any economy expert or smarter than anyone else in that field. To me, the plan and the way is was shoved down the throats of the American people hit me wrong. When you are not an expert, go to the experts. These are some of the people I went to in order to find out if I was off-base or not...

This is how it began...

President-elect Barack Obama warned Capitol Hill lawmakers yesterday that he will bar all pork-barrel projects from the massive economic-stimulus package he is asking them to pass.  The proposed plan, which Obama says will cost around $775 billion, will not allow lawmakers to insert pet projects, as they often do on spending bills.
Speaking at his transition office in Washington, Obama said his program "will have a higher standard of accountability, transparence and oversight."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01072009/news/politics/obama_bans_stimulus_package_p  ork_149013.htm

Well, how did that work out?

With only eight hours to comb through the thousands of pages that make up the Economic Stimulus Recovery package, Republicans have already spotted a few items of pork which have been released to the public by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's office on February 13, 2009.

After the stimulus package came under scrutiny and was found to have included millions for STDs and contraceptives, the pork has been slimmed down somewhat. So far, it is known that the package contains:

    * Tax benefits for Golf Carts, Electric Motorcycles and ATV.
    * $300 million for Federal Employees Company Cars which will acquire vehicles with higher fuel economy, including hybrid vehicles and electric vehicles.
    * $1 billion for ACORN--Eligible block grants to carry out community development.
    * $50 million For an Arts Endowment.
    * $165 million for Fish Hatcheries.    *

      After the stimulus package is passed and signed by President Obama, watchdog groups will go over it line-by-line and if Democrats in the House and Senate still think that  pork can be hidden, those running for office in 2010 may have to justify their votes in favor of the stimulus package.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2547-Watchdog-Politics-Examiner~y2009m  2d13-Stimulus-package-still-has-plenty-of-pork

Here you have an interesting article by Russell Rogers, professor at George Mason University, which ends like this...

I'm not saying that economy policy is irrelevant. Economic policy matters because it affects the long-run growth of the economy. I'm all for policies that make us more productive or innovative by changing incentives. But those policies take time. There's little any economic doctor can do to move our $14 trillion organism of an economy in the next few months.
Politicians who work in the Oval Office—or those who seek to work there—would be wise to remember that patience is a virtue. Focus on the policies that lead to growth over time. Expecting results overnight is bound to lead to disappointment.

Russell Roberts is a professor at George Mason University and a research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. He hosts the weekly podcast series, EconTalk.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18159629

Here are just a few more, Brad, of the hundreds of economists who have spoken out against it....

*The Nobel laureate and University of Chicago economics professor Gary Becker worries that increased government spending in the form of a gigantic stimulus package would “crowd out” private sector spending. He also says he believes that a recent report from Mr. Obama’s transition team economists may “overestimate the effects of this stimulus package on the economy, and that the same techniques would similarly overestimate the employment effects of other types of government spending and tax reduction policies.”

*Robert E. Lucas, a Nobel laureate at the University of Chicago, wrote that Fed policy (as opposed to, presumably, fiscal policy) is the best means for digging the country out of recession.

*Jonathan Bean at the Independent Institute and David R. Henderson at the Hoover Institution both looked at whether fiscal stimulus actually cured previous economic downturns, and by extension, whether it is likely to have any effect this time. Mr. Bean noted that many economists and historians now believe the New Deal — which some see as the model for extricating America from the current recession — actually prolonged the Great Depression. Mr. Henderson looked at studies done by President-elect Barack Obama’s choice to head the Council of Economic Advisers, Christina Romer, that showed that fiscal policy has had little effect in ending previous recessions.


Four of ASU's most prominent economists have joined with hundreds of others in their field to argue against the federal stimulus package now finishing its journey through Congress.

The Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, on Monday placed a full-page ad in several of the nation's largest-circulation newspapers questioning President Barack Obama's contention that there is relatively unanimous support for government intervention in the economy. On the ad were the names of more than 200 economists from across the country. Among them were Edward Prescott, an ASU economist and Nobel laureate, and three of his colleagues at Arizona State University. "We're pretty free-market over here," said Stephen Happel, an ASU economics professor, "and, you know, we think the stimulus package is anything but."

ASU, including the W.P. Carey School of Business where they all work, is one of many public institutions that stands to benefit greatly from the roughly $800 billion plan. The package includes huge sums in aid for ailing state economies, like Arizona's, that could offset tens of millions of dollars in higher education budget cuts. Regardless, the ASU economists who signed the Cato Institute's statement - Prescott, Happel, Nancy Roberts and Allan DeSerpa - argue that the federal government's plan could be a waste of nearly a trillion taxpayer dollars.
"We're spending all this time nitpicking at this stimulus package," said Roberts, an economics professor. "You know, should there be money in there for National Endowment for the Arts? Should Amtrak be in there? What about child care? When, in fact, it's really begging the question, should the federal government be doing any of this at all?" The Cato Institute argues that massive government intervention has repeatedly failed to boost struggling economies in the past. "Lower tax rates and a reduction in the burden of government are the best way of using fiscal policy to boost growth," the institute's statement said.
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/135282


Ok, so how do I feel about it? I believe that action is necessary, but not this plan and not with this speed. Obama going on national tv to tell the public that, without the IMMEDIATE passage of this bill, the nation would be damaged to the point of irreversability strikes me as the tactics of a used-car salesman or someone needing to make the sale while you are still in the showroom. Democrats have a long record of declaring crises and even White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel spelled it out by saying "Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before." Good grief, man! He even told the people what was happening and they still support it. I find that amazing.

So Obama turns it over to Pelosi to draft and she comes up with a wealthload of pork to inject into it, gets it past the house, sends it to the Senate with almost no time to read it before voting. It stinks, Brad. If the bill were that good and above board there wouldn't be a need for such tactics. Pelosi is as giddy as a schoolgirl who has just gotten away with putting something over on a hated rival. They have injected a ton of things in there costing many billions of dollars that do not belong there at this time and running up big bills that are going to have to be paid by SOMEBODY. When your grandkids come to you and say "Were you people NUTS???", what will your answer be?

I think Obama is a decent sort. Yes, I still accuse him of the scare tactics he is using with regards to this bill but I believe he has the best interest of the nation at heart. Problem is that he is a non-entity. He is the cheerleader  shaking his pom-poms out there to get crowds cheering from city to city while the players, the real team, are playing the game. The democratic congressman I mentioned earlier who said that Obama was concerned about the amount of pork Pelosi stuck in the bill was right but...so what? They will send him to another city to do what he does best...give a speech. Democrats said that, if Hillary had been elected, they would have had the distinction of having the first woman president. Well, guess what? They DO have the first woman president - Nancy Pelosi.

What do I think would work? Lower taxes and less burden on the government. Keep the golf carts, the STD prevention, the beautification of the governement buildings and all of the other things off the democratic wish list and get back to the basics without the pork.

I find it interesting that when Ronald Reagan inherited the Jimmy Carter fiasco with double digit unemployment and the country in recession mode, he came up with four points to turn the country around and they worked. Obama and team, instead of learning from that, are doing exactly the opposite of those four points. He succeeded - how do you think it will work for them?

Right now I believe the Democrat administration has the country just the way they want it....hands out, saying "Where's mine?"  And I do not think this will end well.

Local Rebel
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quote:

Ok, so how do I feel about it? I believe that action is necessary, but not this plan and not with this speed. Obama going on national tv to tell the public that, without the IMMEDIATE passage of this bill, the nation would be damaged to the point of irreversability strikes me as the tactics of a used-car salesman or someone needing to make the sale while you are still in the showroom. Democrats have a long record of declaring crises and even White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel spelled it out by saying "Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before." Good grief, man! He even told the people what was happening and they still support it. I find that amazing.



Let's tell some of these people that we need to slow down.  I'm sure they don't mind waiting Mike.

Some high profile January Layoffs:

1/28/2009 Starbucks 6,700 Restaurants
1/28/2009 Boeing 10,000 Aerospace
1/28/2009 Time Warner 1,500 Media
1/27/2009 Target 1,000 Retailing
1/27/2009 Masco 600 Construction
1/26/2009 IBM 2,800 Software
1/26/2009 Texas Instruments 3,400 Semiconductors
1/26/2009 Lincoln National 540 Insurance
1/26/2009 Caterpillar 20,814 Capital Goods
1/26/2009 General Motors 9,758 Durables
1/26/2009 Home Depot 7,000 Retailing
1/26/2009 Pfizer 19,800 Pharmaceuticals
1/26/2009 Sprint Nextel 8,000 Telecommunications
1/23/2009 Abercrombie & Fitch 50 Retailing
1/23/2009 Deere & Company 662 Capital Goods
1/23/2009 Harley-Davidson 1,100 Consumer Durables
1/22/2009 Microsoft 5,000 Software
1/22/2009 Huntsman 1,665 Chemicals
1/21/2009 Burlington Santa Fe 2,500 Transportation
1/21/2009 UAL 1,000 Transportation
1/21/2009 SPX 400 Conglomerates
1/21/2009 Intel 5,000 Semiconductors
1/21/2009 Walt Disney 600 Media
1/21/2009 Wynn Resorts 53 Leisure
1/21/2009 Eaton 5,609 Capital Goods
1/20/2009 Clear Channel 1,850 Media
1/20/2009 Deere & Co. 160 Capital Goods
1/16/2009 ConocoPhillips 1,300 Oil & Gas
1/16/2009 Hertz Global Holdings 4,000 Business Services
1/16/2009 WellPoint 600 Health Care
1/16/2009 Advanced Micro Devices 1,700 Semiconductors
1/15/2009 Xerox 275 Business Services
1/15/2009 MeadWestvaco 2,000 Materials
1/15/2009 Autodesk 750 Software
1/15/2009 Marshall & Ilsley 830 Banking
1/15/2009 General Electric 1,000 Conglomerates
1/14/2009 Ecolab 1,000 Chemicals
1/14/2009 Delta Air Lines 2,000 Transportation
1/14/2009 Motorola 4,000 Technology
1/14/2009 Google 100 Software
1/13/2009 KeyCorp 200 Banking
1/13/2009 Newell Rubbermaid 75 Household
1/13/2009 Cummins 1,300 Capital Goods
1/12/2009 Textron 2,665 Conglomerates
1/12/2009 Mosaic 1,000 Chemicals
1/12/2009 Best Buy 500 Retailing
1/12/2009 Precision Castparts 40 Defense
1/9/2009 Oracle 500 Software
1/9/2009 Smithfield Foods 75 Food
1/9/2009 Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold 2,750 Materials
1/8/2009 Union Pacific 230 Transportation
1/8/2009 General Dynamics 179 Defense
1/7/2009 Walgreen 1,000 Retailing
1/7/2009 EMC 2,400 Technology
1/6/2009 Alcoa 13,500 Materials
1/5/2009 Cigna 1,100 Health Care
1/5/2009 United States Steel 4,225 Materials

Now the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) said that in Dec. 08 our workforce was 155.4 million people with 11.1 million unemployed, or about 7.2%  But in reality it's much higher than that because during the Clinton administration the BLS changed the way it counted the unemployed by eliminating discouraged workers (people who were not employed and had given up looking for a job, or those who were employed only part - time in a field not of thier choosing ie. pHD's pumping gas and bagging groceries).  Now at the time Rush L cried foul at this practice and called it cheating -- with which I agreed because even Rush, like Ron's broken clock, is occasionally right.  However, the Bush administration that was going to restore integrity to the White House, never reversed this practice.  Therefore the BLS last month removed 637k people from the unemployed list who were still not, at the time employed.  Also part-time workers who said they wanted full time employment (counted as fully employed) grew by 621k.

Now if we take these figures and add them to government workers -- (which the Heritage Foundation count as unemployed during the FDR administration) then the unemployed in the last
month of the Bush admin jumps to over 20% as well.

Of course -- we remember who the Heritage foundation is -- they are the people who have been retained by the Tobacco industry to tell us that smoking is safe, and by the oil industry that global warming is a scam.  This is the foundation that was founded by Paul Weyrich, seen in this video clearly explaining his views on democracy -- a must see.

Now -- they want to revise history and tell us that the new deal didn't work.

That's all for now...

Brad   I'll be back

Balladeer
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That's all well and good, LR. No one is denying there is an employment problem, a housing problem or a banking problem. The question is (1) will Obama's plan solve that and (2) is there any justification for all of the non-essential spending it contains.

Btw, add Cessna to your list, which laid off 40 workers due to the cancelled orders generated from the congressional grillings of executives.They sent Obama a letter today and I don't think it was a belated Valentine card.

btw again, there is one organization not on your list...government. They are hiring....
Ron
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148 posted 02-19-2009 01:35 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
(1) will Obama's plan solve that

I don't think anyone knows that, Mike. Including all those economists you recently cited. What we do know, pretty much for sure, is that none of the other plans passed by Congress are going to solve our problems?

quote:
(2) is there any justification for all of the non-essential spending it contains.

You'd have to be more specific, Mike. The entire Federal budget is non-essential. There's things some people want to spend money on, some things no one wants to spend money on, and a very few things that almost everyone wants to spend money on. Buy it's all based on want, not need, and all of those wants are based on someone's justifications for why you and I should want it, too.

However, ignoring the ambiguity of the question, yea, I think almost everything mentioned in this thread can be justified in either the short term or in the long term. For example, those electric vehicles you keep bringing up will put a few people to work in the short run, but "may" provide a new infra-structure for the future -- one NOT based on fossil fuels. IMO, investing in battery technology (or in this case, encouraging people to invest in it) is key to this country's economy. We ain't got enough oil to compete; we might have enough brains, though.


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149 posted 02-19-2009 02:15 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

All this time I thought the plan was geared toward the current situation, not the long term. Even LR mentioned that and you yourself said that, in the long run, we are in trouble.
If you want to justify golf carts, for example, of forebringers of our break from the dependence of oil, that's fine with me. Should that be in this plan at this time? Are people worried about oil now or finding work?

I have no doubt you gentlemen can come up with all kinds of reason, or excuse, for everything that is in the bill.,,but should all of these things be in THIS bill at THiS time, when we are going to have to borrow the money to finance this endeavor? If you are going to the store with a specific amount of money to buy food you need to survive, are you going to buy a box of frosting, just in case your wife decides to bake a cake some time in the future? This was not supposed to be a democratic wish list, Ron. It was supposed to be a plan designed exclusively to offset our current situation. The proposed plan, which Obama says will cost around $775 billion, will not allow lawmakers to insert pet projects, as they often do on spending bills.
Speaking at his transition office in Washington, Obama said his program "will have a higher standard of accountability, transparence and oversight."


Those are Obama's words, not mine. He claimed there would be no pet projects and you are making an attempt to justify them.

If you want to claim that the entire federal budget is non-essential, then why would you, or even Obama, consider this plan essential? That sounds like a little bit of a cop-out to me, with all respect, and a lot of justification stretching.

There is non-essential spending in the bill. Why anyone goes so far to try to deny it is beyond me.
 
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