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Is the New Bill Stimulating or Pork?

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Grinch
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100 posted 02-15-2009 12:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Keep shooting the messengers if you like. You say nothing to discredit the message.



I donít need to Mike, he argues against himself quite admirably in the link I supplied.

quote:
Whatever happened to the favorite democrat chant about republicans favoring the rich??


What happened to the republican chant that democrats always punish the rich Mike?

Balladeer
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101 posted 02-15-2009 01:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Not even close, grinch. Actually the republican chant is that democrats are for bigger government. Democrats have used the "tax breaks for the rich" their rallying cry for years. My friend BobK has used it here very, er, liberally. They've used it in every political campaign from Hillary to Gore to Kerry to Obama.

Of course you know all that. It's just not in you to acknowledge that it IS quite switch for them. I understand...believe me  
Grinch
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102 posted 02-15-2009 01:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Heck Mike Iíll happily acknowledge it - no skin off my nose admitting the peccadilloes of a party I donít belong to or vote for.

Iíve told you before Iím an equal opportunity critic.

serenity blaze
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103 posted 02-15-2009 06:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Just checking in to report:

I'm still feeling pretty stimulated.



I'd forgotten how much I love this city

Denise
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104 posted 02-16-2009 07:59 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:

Let's go back in time, for those who care, to June 22, 2007. Obama was in Manchester, N.H., campaigning for the Democratic presidential nomination.

He said government would be different with an Obama administration.

"When there is a bill that ends up on my desk as the president, you the public will have five days to look online and find out what's in it before I sign it," he said. His campaign called the idea the "sunshine before signing promise."



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88989
Balladeer
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105 posted 02-16-2009 09:12 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It would be harder to find a campaign promise that he HAS kept...did we really expect anything different?

Fortunately, Denise, your article contains a video of Obama being caught in the lie. Otherwise, we would have the same old shoot the messenger routine over the site that displays it that we get, ad nauseum.
Denise
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106 posted 02-16-2009 09:56 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You and I would call it a lie, for sure, Michael. Obama would probably just change the definition of "day" or "five" to mean something other than what they actually mean, just as we have seen pork and earmarks being redefined to make it appear that when he said there are no earmarks in the stimulus bill that he might actually be telling the truth, despite, among other outrages, groups, including ACORN, getting BILLIONS of our hard-earned money.
Grinch
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107 posted 02-16-2009 01:16 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
despite, among other outrages, groups, including ACORN, getting BILLIONS of our hard-earned money.


Where in the bill does it specifically allocate BILLIONS to ACORN Denise - or is that just a lie?

Tim
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108 posted 02-16-2009 03:00 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"despite, among other outrages, groups, including ACORN, getting BILLIONS of our hard-earned money."

"Where in the bill does it specifically allocate BILLIONS to ACORN Denise - or is that just a lie?"

Neighborhood Stabilization Program

Community Development Block Grants

Self-Help and Assisted Homeowners Opportunity Program

Acorn will be well paid for its assistance to the President's campaign.  The above is a pork trough of billions awaiting for Acorn and its associated groups.

The Republicans, in an attempt at pure partisanship attempted to remove the pork.  The Democrats in a show of true bipartisanship kept the pork in the bill.  One must reward one's friends.

Grinch
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109 posted 02-16-2009 03:35 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You forgot to mention the fact that Acorn isnít specifically mentioned in any of those provisions Tim so Iíll ask the question again.

Where in the bill does it specifically allocate BILLIONS to ACORN.

Tim
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110 posted 02-16-2009 04:46 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim


That is a relief to know those billions will not be going to ACORN and related groups.
Huan Yi
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111 posted 02-16-2009 05:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Where in the bill does it specifically allocate BILLIONS to ACORN"


So they won't be getting any right?

Is it specifically stated by name who
will be getting tax cuts; is my name on
the list?


.

Brad
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112 posted 02-16-2009 05:13 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

These things are just confusing to me:

1. If the bill is not online, why were people complaining that it was too long to read -- online?

Is this a spirit versus letter thing?

2. Is ACORN the only game in town when it comes to community investment?

Why not start your own community investment organization?
Balladeer
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113 posted 02-16-2009 06:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, the final bill was not online unitil the end. When it was , it was in a format that did not permit using the search function. You can imagine that, for a study of it, it would be beneficial to be able to type a topic in the search function and allow the computer to bring up those pages relating to the topic. Well, the Democrats obviously thought of that and did not allow that to happen....sneaky little fellows, aren't they?

Is ACORN the only game in town? Nope, just the biggest one that would receive the most.

Why not start a community investment organization? You mean like Wells Fargo who, when asked for bailout money, was told they didn't qualify because they were not a bank so they went out and bought a bank and then got a share of the bailout? Good idea..
Brad
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114 posted 02-16-2009 07:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
it was in a format that did not permit using the search function. You can imagine that, for a study of it, it would be beneficial to be able to type a topic in the search function and allow the computer to bring up those pages relating to the topic.


Now, that's something worth complaining about. It's also something that can be fixed the next time around.

Whether ACORN gets money or not misses the point of what they do. I get it if you want to attack them for fraud (which, if true, should be punished and ... fixed) but the way the word is used above sounds more like a scare word than anything else.  OMG, the red shirts are coming, the red shirts are coming!

Speaking of fear mongering (I think it's around here somewhere):

quote:
They will die because of scarcity and rationing of medical care.

They will die because of unrestrained abortion and infanticide.

Eventually, I believe, they will die because of hunger and exposure brought on by a collapsed economy ravaged by command-and-control centralization.

But what has clearly died already Ė after just 30 days Ė is the very "democracy" Obama championed and pledged throughout his campaign.

This isn't "democracy," not that democracy should ever be the goal of any true American who reveres the Constitution. It's just the old-fashioned "dictatorship of the proletariat" Ė a Communist euphemism for a war on workers not directly in servitude to the state.

Let's examine some jaw-dropping numbers reported exclusively by WND:

    * Before this bill is signed, actual federal obligations are already $65.5 trillion Ė exceeding the gross domestic product of the entire world.

    * The Obama administration economic stimulus package is going to force the Treasury to borrow approximately $2.5 trillion in 2009 and another $4 trillion in 2010, with the result of increasing the current $10 trillion national debt by 65 percent in just two years. If the Obama administration increases the national debt by 65 percent every two years, the debt will be $16.5 trillion in 2010 and $27.225 trillion by 2012, the year of the next presidential election.

Let's consider the real meaning of these numbers, courtesy of WND senior staff reporter Jerome Corsi, a trained economist:

    * If you had gone into business on the day Jesus was born, and your business lost a million dollars a day, 365 days a year, it would take you until October 2737 to lose $1 trillion.

    * $1 trillion dollars divided by 300 million Americans comes out to $3,333 per person.

    * One trillion $1 bills stacked one on top of the other would reach nearly 68,000 miles into the sky, about a third of the way from the Earth to the moon.

    * Earth's home galaxy, the Milky Way, is estimated to contain about 200 billion stars. So, if each star cost $1, $1 trillion would buy five Milky Way galaxies full of stars.

But you don't need to know all that.

Just let the "experts" in Washington figure it all out for you Ė the ones who are not even reading the bills, the ones who lied to you last year when they campaigned for office, the ones who are hiding this information from you even today.

After all, as Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., explains: The American people don't care.

--Joseph Farah

Actually, check out Yglesias, he has a poll showing a plurality of Americans in favor of -- choke, gasp -- socialized medicine.

Also, the article on Schumer in the Atlantic is interesting.  He wants the Dems to shift to the middle class, the 'real' middle class.

I apologize for sounding facetious but honestly isn't there anybody else out there that thinks thirty days is, well, a month?

47 to 95 remain.

  
Balladeer
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115 posted 02-16-2009 08:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Now, that's something worth complaining about. It's also something that can be fixed the next time around.

You don't get it, do you, Brad? It was not a mistake.It's nothing to be fixed. It was done intentionally by Pelosi to make it more difficulty for the Republicans to study thoroughly with the little time given to them.

Accuse Acorn of fraud? I'd have to stand in line behind the various states that have already brought charges against them. ACORN - you know, that organization Obama worked for, training them on the tactics of how to make banks give out unsecured loans? The ones who sent their people out by the thousands to get him elected? The ones who falsified the voting records? He;s taking care of them now.
Brad
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116 posted 02-16-2009 08:31 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
It was done intentionally by Pelosi to make it more difficulty for the Republicans to study thoroughly with the little time given to them.


I guess I don't because that would be pretty stupid and against the law. But let's assume that you're right and that's the game their playing.

You complain. You fix it. Is that so hard to understand?

The outcome, regardless of intent, is the same.

quote:
Accuse Acorn of fraud? I'd have to stand in line behind the various states that have already brought charges against them. ACORN - you know, that organization Obama worked for, training them on the tactics of how to make banks give out unsecured loans. He;s taking care of them now.


Again, I don't get it. I haven't seen ACORN convicted of anything (I checked last week). Indeed, they still seem to be going strong. But ACORN does have specific goals that don't specifically involve helping Dems (They are closer to the Dems because ACORN's goals and the Dems' goals are similar -- no conspiracy).

You can be against those goals but let's not pretend that what's happening depends on backroom deals in non-tobacco smoke-filled rooms.

There may be backroom deals, I don't know, I do know that the outcome remains the same.
Balladeer
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117 posted 02-16-2009 09:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I guess I don't because that would be pretty stupid and against the law

I guess I just don't have the ability to make you understand, Brad, or understand why you are trying so hard to not see it for what it is. It's not against the law. Me making my mortgage payment in pennies is not against the law, either.

They had over 1100 pages of governmental legalese and limited time to digest it. A search funtion would have allowed them to do it more efficiently and faster. That ability was denied them. It wasn't illegal - it was simply shady, despicable and shoddy. It was typical of something Pelosi would do. Perhaps Democrats would applaud such an wonderful trick she perpetrated and be proud of it. That wouldn't surprise me - but YOU do.
Local Rebel
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118 posted 02-16-2009 09:13 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Um, since when is a PDF or ASCII not searchable..?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/arra_public_review/

I opened the PDF and ran a search for 'Pork', and there's none in there.

Balladeer
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119 posted 02-16-2009 09:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nice to see you again, reb


If you ran a search for pork and couldn't find any, that's proof it's not searchable

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (02-16-2009 10:39 PM).]

Ron
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120 posted 02-17-2009 01:47 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Let's hope our legislators know how to use a browser.

'Cause, if not, we can be sure that will be the fault of the Democrats, too.
moonbeam
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121 posted 02-17-2009 03:34 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam




quote:
You can imagine that, for a study of it, it would be beneficial to be able to type a topic in the search function and allow the computer to bring up those pages relating to the topic. Well, the Democrats obviously thought of that and did not allow that to happen ... sneaky little fellows aren't they.



You are so right Mike.  And guess what, I see now why the French and Brit subs collided in Mid-atlantic - it wasn't European incompetence, no, it was those sneaky little Democrats up to their dastardly sonar jamming tricks again.  
quote:
It was done intentionally by Pelosi

How do you know?

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (02-17-2009 09:08 AM).]

Tim
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122 posted 02-17-2009 08:27 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

Misdeeds and corruption occur in politics because we are willing to stick our heads in the sand when it is our party who engages in inappropriate behavior.

We beat the drums to accuse the opposition and then when confronted with the similar behavior on our side of the isle, we rise up in righteous indignation
that anyone could possibly suggest we are capable of misbehavior. (although sometimes, we ignore misdeeds of the other side if it is to our benefit)

This is perhaps why our system works best when checks and balances are fully working and works worst when one side holds the stronger hand.
Local Rebel
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123 posted 02-17-2009 08:51 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Yanno Mike....

Little elves don't sneak into the Capitol building and magically write up 1400 page bills overnight and leave them for a vote the next morning.

quote:

Said Polis: "When you hear people talking about not reading it it's a little misleading. We've had most of this bill for weeks, so we've been following this through the process. The only pieces that we had to look at were ones that were changed in the final conference report...Most of the bill, probably 90% of the bill is what we passed a couple weeks ago."
http://www.towleroad.com/2009/02/stimulus-bill-p.html



What wasn't searchable was the HAND marked up copies of the bill from the final conference report that were scanned and posted in jpeg format in a PDF so that everyone could see them.  SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, on Pelosi for making sure everyone had acess to the hand-marked-up conference report!
Tim
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124 posted 02-17-2009 02:00 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

When each body of the legislature enacts a bill, it must be done on the open floor.  The stimulus package didn't have much input from the Republicans (virtually none in the house), but the separate bills were available.

Most damage comes in the legislative process at the end of sessions or when an "emergency" exists.  That is because conference committees do not operate in the light of day.  Behind closed doors they can add whatever little tidbits they desire.

You add to the situation, the Republicans weren't involved in the conference committees, the situation is further exasperated.

The 10% that is added or changed in conference is hidden in the 1000+ pages.  If one has any knowledge of the legislative process, that is one of the danger areas, the conference committee, because it so so easy to hide nice little tidbits that are going to come back and bite someone in the backside.

For anyone to say they knew what tidbits were hidden in the bill by the conference committee except for the conference committee is living on a different planet than I inhabit.

Such tactics occur in all legislatures; committed by both Republicans and Democrats. We just did it on a wee bit bigger scale dealing with the largest spending bill ever passed.

Just admit it happened, because it did.  It happens on a smaller scale on a routine basis all the time, most generally in budget bills at the end of sessions in both the federal and state legislatures.

Or hide you head in the sand and say it didn't happen because we have entered the brave new world of bipartisanship.
 
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