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OOPS!

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Denise
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since 08-22-99
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50 posted 01-24-2009 08:00 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The networks also don't cover the annual March for Life in DC either. I guess 20,000+ participants is not newsworthy.

And although pro-life signs were forbidden in DC on Tuesday, there was no lack of Bush hatred signs and even an effigy of Bush at which people were invited to throw shoes.

And in the Agenda section of the White House website, some of Bush's policies are referred to as displays of "unconscinable ineptitude."

Yeah, Barry is a real first class act.
Balladeer
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51 posted 01-24-2009 11:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I see where you mentioned a link but don't see the link. Am I overlooking it.

As far as rumsfeld is concerned, everyone knows he was a blowhard. If he wanted to speak of organ removal to scare the bejesus out of terrorists, that's fine with me. Had you heard of ANY case where that was performed? I can assure you, with our press, it would have been discovered and been front page material for months. No, what made the front pages were prisoners walking around naked, being made pyramids out of, being shamed by female soldiers, having music played too loudly and the big one, waterboarding, which has served to become the rallying cry for Democrats against Bush. I would go so far as to say that, if there were a Democratic president in office, Abu Ghrab and Gitmo would not have even been an issue, but it was too ripe a vehicle to go after Bush so it became what it is. These "torture tactics" would make McCain and people who actually went through true torture laugh.

You have my sympathies on the other, Bob. That must make Christmas hold a wide range of emotions for you. As far as your father's presence showing up to feel a part of you, it won't be me to claim that is poppycock. You were blessed to have had a father you cared about enough to make you feel that way. Be well....
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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52 posted 01-24-2009 05:04 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Here it is, Mike:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15121696

The phrase was "organ failure."

It did not make Senator McCain laugh.  First he came out strongly against it, then he came out for it, and during the election he came out strongly against it once again.  At no time did I hear him laugh.  At no time did I hear any of the people who were trained to withstand some of these techniques in the escape and evasion training in special forces and the air force laugh about them, and they knew that they would not be killed as part of the training, and that the training was defensive in nature.

     At Gitmo, and at Abu Gharib, it was applied offensively, and there were no such assurances.  A high proportion of the people confined in both places had nothing to do with terrorism, especially this was clear at Abu Gharib since the information on weapons of mass destruction they were trying to find was non-existent, and it was as a result of the treatment of people in that place that a lot of the terrorists were produced.

     In the case of Gitmo, there is no proof that very many of those guys were terrorists at all, yet torture was used without discrimination.  It became a terrorist production factory because of that treatment.  Torture an innocent man, produce a radical.

     Thanks for your support about my dad, Mike.  I appreciate it.

Sincerely,  Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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53 posted 01-24-2009 08:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I see it suts you purpose to take my "laugh" in literal form, even though you know how I meant it.

Did you hear of anyone being injured at Abu Ghrab? I never saw one instance of it in the newspapers. What exactly that happened at Abu Ghrab do you attribute directly to Bush?

Yet torture was used without discrimination at Gitmo? Where did you happen to come up with that assumption, Bob, or is that what you just imagine happened there? Did you hear of any organ failures happening there? How did you come by the information that many of the interees there were innocent? Another supposition? Let's try facts, instead, like the facts that over 10% of those set free have rejoined Al Qaeda?

As far as Obama closing Gitmo and ending the "horrible" things that happened during interrogations, he has his fingers crossed behind his back.

He decreed that interrogators must follow techniques outlined in the Army Field Manual when questioning terrorism suspects, even as he ordered a review that could allow CIA interrogators to use other methods for high-value targets. Also, while a new White House rule limits staffers' previous lobbying activities, exceptions were made for at least two senior administration officials. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090125/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_first_week_7

It would appear so far that whatever moves he makes have built-in exceptions...perhaps that's the "change" he refers to?

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


54 posted 01-24-2009 10:22 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There seems to be in our Middle East policy
a silent belief that Israel, in its own defense,
would ultimately do what it deems necessary;
equally there’s a quiet faith that some renegade
American intelligence faction would do what
it thinks is required regardless in the face
of an imminent threat to the United States
and accept the consequences; they’re each
in their own way a pathetic sort of religion.

.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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55 posted 01-24-2009 10:58 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           You may have forgotten the articles a few months back that revealed that bush as well as Rumsfeld and other top administration officials not only knew about the torture but actually approved much of it on line, live, step by step as it escalated.  The C.I.A. was not exactly thrilled with the orders it was getting.  As I recall we even had an on line discussion about that, though I can't remember where.

     In general, this isn't a bad link:
http://ccrjustice.org/newsroom/press-releases/highest-level-bush-administration-officials-approved-discussed--post-911-torture-program


If you want details about some of the deaths at Abu Gharib, you might listen to the npr link I sent you last time, which mentions some of them.  A number of the deaths in custody were ruled homicides by the army in that prison.  One was from tying a suspect up in a sleeping bag and leaving him there until he smothered.  The well-known photo of the M.P., Grainer, a Sargeant I think, flashing a thumbs up over the corpse would be another.  That guy was beaten to death.  The npr interview makes reference to 20 or 30 as of 2004, but that may be off.  And of course you didn't hear about it.

     If you give the npr interview a listen, it will give you some idea.  The Reagan-Bush guy at the end gives a bit of a rebuttal, though a fairly weak one in my opinion.  At least he gives it a shot, and he didn't know the various events that would come out over the next few years.

     If we stop torturing people as a matter of policy, that would be a good start.  Acting embarrassed would be nice.  Apparently we have people that we can't bring to trial who are clearly involved with the 9/11 plot because the use of torture has so compromised the federal case there's nothing left of it.  There are one or two folks that I'd really like to see rotting in prison for the rest of their lives that we're going to have to let go, I'm afraid, because we can't charge them.  At least I don't think so.

     Anyway, I don't mean to be offensive about this, Mike, but we really did torture people.  The way we got prisoners for Gitmo is by offering $5000 bounties for them, and what we got was anybody the locals thought they could get rid of who wasn't a relative.  The way we set things up, nobody was able to call witnesses in their defense or even have an actual trial, only a tribunal, and that was much later.  Still no witnesses and they weren't allowed to see what the evidence was, if in fact there was any.

     Out of 770  people, we let at least 500 of them go very quietly.

     If these were the worst of the worst as Rumsfeld and Bush said, and torture was justified, why release them?

     Anyway, best to you way down there.  Sincerely, Bob Kaven  

    


Balladeer
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56 posted 01-24-2009 11:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and out of the 500 we let go, over 50 of them are back working with Al Qaeda, documented, one of them being the deputy director of operations in Yemen.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


57 posted 01-25-2009 03:09 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm sure that's true, Mike, or something like it.  Have you had a chance to listen to the NPR segment?  Ot have a quick look at the other link?

     I'm actually surprised it's so few.

     I'd have imagined that an experience like that would have radicalized a lot more of them, and I'm almost shocked it didn't.  If  10% was the number of actually guilty people that were caught, that would make more sense to me, but then I'd still be at a loss to explain why there weren't more people radicalized by the experience.
You don't think it was only 10% that were guilty, do you?
Even I think that would be a bit low.

     If you or I were innocent and put through an experience like that, I'd like to think that we'd at least consider joining the anti-British resistance or the anti-Nazi resistance or whatever.

     I'm not about to tell you things that make sense to me are silly, simply because you say them.

     It would be nice if you acknowledged that I did actually come up with real deaths, by the way.  You don't have to take my word for it; all you have to do is google Deaths at Abu Gharib  or Torture at Gitmo and have a look around.
There are actually defense department studies on the subject.  The Army was very upset about the way the prison was run, though it was more or less forced to do a cover-up.  The army doesn't like this sort of thing at all because they know that when their own guys get captured, they'll have a worse time of it if the U.S. has a bad reputation.  And that enemy soldiers (with information to share) are less likely to surrender if they feel they're in danger of ill-treatment.  It's bad policy.

     Go back 2500 years and Sun-tsu, the Chinese general who wrote The Art of War, the classic text on warfare that's still studied at war colleges around the world, including West Point, makes a point of emphasizing how important good treatment of captives is.  It's not recent knowledge, and it's not simply theory.

     When you say, by the way, back working with al qaeda, you must mean non Iraqi prisoners, since there were no al qaeda folks in Iraq  until at least a year or two after the invasion.  And those were mostly foreign imports.  While Cheney was still claiming that there were al qaeda in Iraq, Bush was saying that he'd never said any such thing, and that there were no al qaeda in Iraq.  

     There were no al qaeda in Iraq except for in Kurdish territory, which Sadam Hussein was excluded from; it was part of the no-fly zone, and his troops were barred from that area as well.  Cheney was actually lying, as a look at Google will tell you if you look at reliable source material — Christian Science Monitor, BBC, The Economist, and avoid the far left or far right sources with drums to beat.

     Our Military and our country were betrayed by our government in any number of  difficult ways.

     The Democrats will not be the world's best solution.  I are one, I ought to know.  But the errors will have at least some corrective elements to them.  Stopping torture as an element of national policy is a good start/  Heck, trying to stop torture as an element of national policy is an improvement.  That isn't asking so much, is it?

     You'd think I was asking people for money, or their first born.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven


    
Balladeer
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58 posted 01-25-2009 10:09 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I confess that I haven't yet gotten to your links but I will do when when I get home tonight. I'm sure there is good info there or you wouldn't have brought it up and they may show me some things about Abu Ghrab I wasn't familiar with. Having said that, I think your notion that the poeple going back and working for Al Qaeda did so because of the harsh treatment that traumatized them enough to become terrorists is like the 10 year old screaming "The Devil made me do it!", after setting the neighbor's cat on fire.

Of COURSE you are asking for money! You're a democrat, aren't you?
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


59 posted 01-25-2009 05:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Got any Money, Mike?
 
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