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Passions in Poetry

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rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


25 posted 01-19-2009 05:58 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Geesh. Spike Lee coins a phrase and it ends up in the LA Times to describe a President elect-- Who's not up for a damn Oscar.

Where's people's heads?? They have to equate Obama to a fictional character when he has enough real character to win Head of State? Like it or not, place him in the history books as a successor who'd better be more successful than a lame duck. What's magical about that?

oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


26 posted 01-19-2009 08:38 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Regina, revered member of my tribe whom I haven't spoken in too long.  Mostly, I don't understand your references, but then, I can be dense.

I don't know about Obama being magical or comparable to a fictional character.  I wasn't suggesting that he is Don Quixote, though you have to admit his journey was Quixotic at the start, as was Senator Clinton's, but that's the stuff of heroes.  They try to do what can't be done, and do it.  They ain't fluffy bunnies.

Brad:  Obama has done more than make a "few" white people feel good.  It made a lot of white people feel realy hopeful again, but I'm not sure that was your point.

Either way, I celebrate the raised consciousness of a nation, and wish the President-elect the best as President.

Best, Jimbeaux
rwood
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since 02-29-2000
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27 posted 01-19-2009 10:21 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey, Jim my kith and kin, good to see you a'bouts here.

No, not you or your post, but the link John posted had Ehrenstein's 2007 LA Times article on Obama, which he stole the term then and it doesn't even apply now.
Denise
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28 posted 01-20-2009 12:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Fortunately in Obama you may just have picked someone who can emulate Christ and walk on water.

You know, Moonbeam, the scary thing is I actually think some people believe that.  

Don't berate yourself Denise, don't be downhearted, don't be disappointed - give him time, and your support would help him
too.


I don't berate myself. Why should I? I didn't vote for him.

I am downhearted and disappointed though for, among other things, the law he will sign today, The Freedom of Choice Act, doing away with every States' laws regulating abortion, and the reinstitution of Federal money to pay for abortions here and in other countries.

So he will have to make a go of his presidency without my support. I'm sure he'll do just fine, though, with his vast legion of disciples.

threadbear
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29 posted 01-20-2009 02:06 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Obama, for good or for bad,
is living proof
that the United States is
STARVING

for a hero.
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


30 posted 01-20-2009 03:44 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"They have to equate Obama to a fictional character when he has enough real character to win Head of State?"

His "character" was manufactured by
hope, guilt, and a six hundred million
dollar war chest, to the extent any
inconvenient real history was discounted or ignored,
(20 yrs of Wright’s venom for example).  Who
has been elected is a fantasy figure about the
actual whom most who supported and voted for
still know little or nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGeu_4Ekx-o


Charles Krauthammer
characterized him as the least qualified candidate
in living memory and that is who in fact
is in office now.   If the nation wants to play
American Idol, fine.  My concern is the real
world represented by leaders like Putin,
and Ahmadinejad who no doubt are less
than impressed by anything other than
the opportunities just given them, (Biden
himself anticipated a test in the first six months).

.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


31 posted 01-20-2009 03:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          I won't try to convince you to be happy.  I can see this is a tough day for you.  When I saw in your post that you seemed convinced that President Obama would sign The Freedom of Choice Act into law today —

quote:


I am downhearted and disappointed though for, among other things, the law he will sign today, The Freedom of Choice Act, doing away with every States' laws regulating abortion, and the reinstitution of Federal money to pay for abortions here and in other countries.




— I felt compelled to check.

     While President Obama is in favor and would, apparently, sign the bill happily today as the first thing he would do as President, the bill would have to be presented to him by Congress, first.  I was not aware that the 111th Congress had prepared any such bill for President Obama.  When I did some Google research, it appeared that I was correct.  The last time the bill was available for signature was in 2007, near as I can tell.  I suspect that it may not be available for a while, even with a Democratic Congress, especially without encumbering amendments that would justify a veto, though the last part is simply speculation.

     I would like it to happen today, mind you, on a purely personal basis, but I suspect you will be able to sleep well tonight and probably for some little time to come.  It's one thing to propose a bill you know will be vetoed, as was done in this case in both 2004 and 2007 with this bill.  It's quite another to propose a bill with potentially heavy political costs attached and with the certainty that the bill will be presented to you and your party come election time.

     I suspect that the first order of business is building some bipartisan consensus on economic recovery, and Abortion is somewhat further down the list.  

     It'll be interesting, though, to watch and see what happens.  My money is still on President Obama being Republican Lite.  This means he's probably where he should be in terms of the general voting public, someplace in the center; and much too far to the left for you, and somewhat too far to the right for me.

     I'll be pleased if he can repair the economy and the damages to civil rights and the constitution, and if he can get some of the power of the Presidency shifted back toward the congress.  These I think are structural problems that really need to be addressed.

     I hope the grandkids are doing well and that Christmas and New Year went well for you and your family.

All my best, Bob Kaven

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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32 posted 01-20-2009 04:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

          All leaders are mythologized in one form or another.  It's a function of group dynamics.  Even the messianic hope is a fairly frequent event in both large and small group dynamics.  The late W.R. Bion wrote a wonderful short book about this stuff called Experiences in Groups.  It should be in the Library, and I think it may still be in print.

     As a President it will be a measure of Obama's success how well he's able to return the sense of hope to the people of the country he serves.  The extent to which he retains that idealization for himself will, over time, be a measure of how far he will fall short of his goals.

Any thoughts?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
threadbear
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since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
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33 posted 01-20-2009 05:08 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

OK, some will see this as racist, but anytime race is discussed, that card gets dropped by somebody onto the discusser.  So be it:

I think Obama is proof that the worst part of racism is over with in this country.  The people in DC aren't just cheering Obama, they are cheering the Black Man's biggest accomplishment:  the Presidency of the most influential nation in the world.

And you see there are just as many white people cheering this.  Deep down, people don't want to see a person of color and think anything negative.  Everyone knows that that is not a 'healthy' feeling for all involved.  I believe Obama is a metaphor for a collective change in perception for Blacks by whites in general.  

  There is finally a mentor figure in Black culture besides MLK.  Few men of color have made the white person's mentor list (except, unfortunately, for athletes and actors.)  The US was due for an escalation of proper attitude toward race.  This could very well be a mind-changer for several closet-racists or fence-sitters.  Finally, whites can collectively say: there's a man of color we can all admire, and has reached the pinnacle.  Surely ANYTHING is possible in the United States."  

  One has to remember that Obama had a white hippie mom and a couple of marriages, and didn't have the typical golden path to stardom.  Got to give him credit:  he appears to be a true self-made man.  He didn't depend on Mayor Daly or Chicago for any of his reelections and essentially took on the Chicago political machine and won.  He doesn't seem beholden to any special group at all (except possibly for ACORN.)

   Blacks need a hero father figure.  For confidence, for inspiration, for validation of worth.  On top of all this, he's pushing against the grain, so to speak, for change against the Old Boy Network of Washington.  I have to root for that 100%!!

  Whether he is a paper tiger remains to be seen.  I tend to see the Inaugaration as more of a national tribute to a success story, rather than:  "Hooray we just elected a Democrat."  

  By the way, this is the MOST you will ever hear me schmooze Obama.  But the historic and inspirational significance is not lost on me, or people all around the world.

[This message has been edited by threadbear (01-20-2009 07:42 PM).]

Juju
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since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


34 posted 01-20-2009 08:00 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

There is something really funny about that.  I am starting to feel bad for Obama.  Everyone he picks seems to be tangled in some problem. But com'on he had three months to fix that little problem.

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Denise
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since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


35 posted 01-20-2009 08:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks for the well wishes, Bob. We had a lovely holiday season! I hope yours were as well.

I had read that when he addressed the National Organization for Women, that pro-abortion group, he said that he would sign that bill on "day one", similar to what he said about Gitmo. Just political hot air, I imagine. The sad thing is he will sign it, whether it's today, next week or next month.

I don't share your view, Threadbear, that he is a self-made man, taking on the Chicago political machine. I believe he was just as much a part of that machine as Daly and Blago. Also his connections with Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and Bernadine Dohrn benefited him politically in Chicago. And I don't for a minute think he is pushing against the grain of the Old Boy Washington Network. Most of his appointees are part of the old Clinton establishment.

To me it makes no difference if he is black, white, half and half, or purple. That shouldn't have been anybody's criteria in a candidate.

And he shouldn't have used the race card in the campaign. And he's the only one who did. And he shouldn't have come here to Philadelphia and given a speech essentially saying that whites just have to understand where people like Rev. Wright are "coming from" and that he could no sooner disown him than he could a member of his own family, and in the next breath throw his grandmother under the bus by saying she was just a 'typical white person' because she was fearful one time when a black panhandler was harassing her at the bus stop. Is the Rev. Jesse Jackson also a 'typical white person' for admitting to the same fear?  He came here and 'lectured' the white national audience to deflect attention away from his 20 year association with Wright and his church by trying to turn the tables around and making it seem that the problem was with white people's perceptions of the Rev. Wright and others in the Black Liberation Theology mindset. By doing that he showed me his lack of character. As far as I am concerned Obama is the racist, as well as is the Rev. Wright, and he is not the person qualified to lecture anybody about racism.

Juju, maybe he was too busy conferencing with his three law firms in his effort to keep his past, from birth onward, sealed from public scrutiny, to give as much attention to his appointees as he should have.

Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


36 posted 01-20-2009 08:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Threadbear,

           I hate what the word Racist itself has done for dialogue about race in this country.  Near as I can tell, everybody qualifies as racist in some way or another, including myself.  I guess we have to be open to how it shows up and how it screws up our thinking from time to time, and be willing to compensate when we recognize it; but all I saw in your comments was an attempt to understand something about the American Race situation and the American dream.

     I also thought it was an interesting set of speculations, and I hope you're right.

     Maybe other people feel differently, though?

Curiously enough, Bob Kaven
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


37 posted 01-21-2009 10:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Denise,

           You may be right.

     His job, in my opinion, is more difficult than the way you envision it.  I mean no offense to your viewpoint here, though we do disagree; it's simply that I think he sees the Presidency differently than the last folks.  At least I hope he does.

     The difference that I have in mind here is that (Gosh, I hope so) that Obama may feel that power needs to be returned to Congress rather than flow toward the President.  If this is the case, he won't be working through so many back channels to institute policy, there hopefully won't be any signing statements, and he won't be looking for intelligence to support pre-decided positions based on ideological positions.

     The pro or anti abortion stuff and the legislation on fairness in media will have to come from Congress, though he'll sure have a hefty input into that material.

     Also, as a point of honor here, I'd like to suggest to you that there is no such thing as somebody who is pro-abortion except perhaps in your own mind.  Nobody likes the thought of abortion, even women who have them, if only on the basis of the fact that it's painful.  Nobody except folks with significant problems actually seeks pain in this way.

     People seek abortions because abortions seem to them to be the best possible solution to a difficult life situation at that time.  I understand you don't believe that that's enough of a reason, and that you feel profoundly disturbed that anybody would disagree with you about this in a serious way.  The disagreement doesn't mean that there's anybody leading a group of cheerleaders for the procedure.   It's basically a misunderstanding of these other people that allows you to call them "pro-abortion."

     I can't imagine that this would matter to you except for one factor.  Should you actually wish to change hearts and minds, you are more or less obligated to understand them first the way they actually are.  In order to find that out, you must listen to them.

     I must say that the reverse holds true as well.  For women who are Pro-Choice, if they are to have any chance of changing your heart or your mind, they must understand you as you experience yourself and your viewpoints.  This means at least a sincere attempt on both sides not to see each other as distorted stereotypes.  Normally, I'd think this totally impossible, but you have the advantage, at least a fair number of you on both sides, of being women.

     You're well aware that I'm Pro-Choice in this matter, but I think that's actually secondary.  I think a solution becomes possible here only if everybody, but most especially the women involved, can open their hearts to each other.  To expect men to do so may be expecting more from men at this point than our pointy little heads and hearts can contain; women may need to lead here the way the lead in so many things in life.  But first and foremost by listening to each other.

     Should men try, I'm afraid our heads would explode.

     A few crude thoughts from the peanut gallery.  If you can tolerate offering a response, I'd be interested.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

      
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


38 posted 01-22-2009 07:25 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
And he shouldn't have used the race card in the campaign. And he's the only one who did.


How so?

When people all over the world were utterly fascinated by what progressed, purely because of his color first, then his credentials, second (including his religious background.) I do think he and his staff did flash the race card, but I don't believe he was the only one. He could have denounced the elements of race, just as Hillary could have denounced the sex card, Huckabee the religion card, and McCain the status card.

McCain thought he was above certain protocols as a decorated Veteran. Saying things like this: "Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly? — Because Janet Reno is her father," proved to be only one of his oops.

It takes all kinds I guess.

  
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


39 posted 01-22-2009 02:15 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/us/politics/20text-poem.html?_r=1&ref=books


“Words failed not only Obama, as Sanger noted, but his preacher and poetess as well. The Reverend Joseph Lowery, an old civil rights campaigner of Martin Luther King's generation, concluded his benediction with a jingle: " ... help us work for that day when black will not be asked to give back, when brown can stick around, when yellow will be mellow, when the red man can get ahead, man, and when white will embrace what is right." There was depth in Lowery's triviality.

Lowery's sing-song had aesthetic merit to the inaugural poem [1] recited by one Elizabeth Alexander, a teacher of African-American Studies at Yale University. Alexander tried to rise from the ordinary to the elevated, but managed to reach only the oxymoronic: "What if the mightiest word is love, love beyond marital, filial, national. Love that casts a widening pool of light. Love with no need to pre-empt grievance."

Perhaps she meant, "no need to avenge grievance". It is not clear how one can pre-empt a grievance, which is a response to an objectively injurious act. One can pre-empt the injurious act, but not the response, for the response presumes the act. One can pre-empt a poem, by dismissing the poet. Even better, you can visit the Adolescent Poetry Generator at elsewhere.org and get a new (and often better poem than Alexander's) every time you refresh the page.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/KA22Aa01.html


http://www.elsewhere.org/hbzpoetry/


.
Ron
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40 posted 01-22-2009 03:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sigh.

John, I think you might want to change your password. It seems like someone from the Asia Times is speaking for you now?


moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
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since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


41 posted 01-22-2009 04:35 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Huan

I don't get it. You keep posting these trivial observations made usually by other people, without any original comment.

Do you have any interesting conclusions to draw from the playground taunts of these writers?  

Is it actually of the remotest significance in this world of unjust wars, collapsing economies and climatic catastrophes, that a poet, president or preacher stumbled over a word or two?
.
.
.
.
.
.
(I hope that's ok Ron?)
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


42 posted 01-22-2009 05:22 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Ron,

Sorry, but I read through two articles
to get to this one which I felt expressed
better than I could a healthy skepticism
during this adulation,(when I want to be creative
I don't do it here but on the poetry
side of PIP). And let's be honest, someone
with credentials can say things we can't
without being labeled, ("This half-Luo tribesman from Hawaii whose African father had no connection whatsoever with the West African ancestors of American slaves, was not imbued, but rather hued, with significance. His melanin carried the meaning, which is to say that he was judged by the color of his skin rather than the content of his character, in a precise reversal of Martin Luther King Jr's famous phrase."--"OK, some will see this as racist, but anytime race is discussed, that card gets dropped by somebody onto the discusser.")

The earlier post  was a lead
hoping others would read the article,
though I found amusing the adolescent poetry
generator as a topic in itself.

John

.
Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
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43 posted 01-23-2009 10:41 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Denise was correct in her assumption that this Presidential Order will occur. Please see the link below for the news report.

Officials: Obama to sign order reversing abortion policy
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


44 posted 01-23-2009 07:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Larry C.,

          No sir.  Denise was concerned that Obama would sing a particular piece of legislation that has been before the Congress on at least two separate previous occasions.  The purpose of this legislation was to make Abortion legal in all fifty states pretty much without reservation — at least this is how I understand it.  I'm pretty much in favor of that legislation, myself, since I think that women ought to have that choice.  I also understand that many, many people are not in favor of that legislation, and that it would therefore be best to allow a very full and complete debate on the matter in both the House and the Senate before bringing such legislation up for a vote for the President's signature.  And there would be a very good chance indeed of that bill never getting to the President's desk in the first place.

     I want that debate as much as I want the passage because the debate humanizes both sides and may help heal the country, especially if it respectfully conducted, no matter what the outcome.  Call me naive.

     Then let the President have a look.

     What happened with the Presidential order has to do with the way we has out foreign aid.  The last President has prevented funds being given to organizations that even mention the choice of abortion in their family planning counseling.  This action pretends that our own domestic debate has already been settled, and it has been settled in a way that is contrary to the way the law currently reads in the United States.  You may be fine with this on religious grounds or moral grounds.  On legal and constitutional grounds, you should not be fine with this; it acts as though there was an established religion that we were supposed to follow.  This is expressly against the dictates of the constitution.

     In fact, it has gone back and forth depending on which party controls the white house as a matter of Presidental orders since the Reagan administration.

     While Denise was concerned with Abortions Overseas, she mistakenly thought that they we governed by The Freedom of Choice Act.  The Freedom of Choice Act has not yet been mentioned, though , as I said, I'd like it to be.
The Executive order goes back and forth, as I stated, between parties, and this is no more than business as usual.

Yours, Bob Kaven

      
Balladeer
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45 posted 01-23-2009 09:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's right, Bob....business as usual, a phrase that does not generally go hand in hand with "time for a change". I expect we are going to see a lot more business as usual and less time for a change as time progresses.
Bob K
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46 posted 01-23-2009 10:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

           At what point did I say anything other than Obama was Republican Lite?

     At what point did you begin criticizing him for not being with wild eyed left wing communist radical that you kept categorizing him as during the election?  

     I kept saying that he would be more toward the center than toward the extreme left.  You kept holding out, like Denise, for him being a Marxist.  To be fair, you weren't as rigid about this as Denise, and I shouldn't suggest that your point of view was as far to the right as was hers.

     How much actual change do you feel you can deal with, though, Mike?  I suspect you would like some, because I don't think you were entirely happy with President Bush, but exactly what that would be, I'm not sure about.  I know you don't want too much, but I'm not clear what that would be for you in any sort of specific way either.

     Myself, I like that he's closing Gitmo, and that he's at least trying to toss out torture as an instrument as policy.  This is a change.  I heard that the Republicans examining the guy up for Attorney General want assurances that there won't be any prosecutions for war crimes before they'll vote for confirmation.  I think that suggests that they've at least been listening over the last eight years, even though they haven't been willing to do anything about it.  I can be glad of that much.

     And yes, I do have a bee in my bonnet about torture.  Why don't you? assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you don't.

     I'm a science fiction fan, and have been reading a series of entertaining science fiction novels where torture is part of the plot.  A Desert Called Peace is one of the recent ones by Tom Kratman, I think.  Also John Ringo does a lot of the same sort of thing.  Both write entertaining fiction, though I have to work a bit around the torture bits, but it's fiction.  As is 24.  In fiction you don't have to deal with reality very much, like interrogators who keep at it until you tell them what they want to hear, whether it's the truth or not.

     Among other things.

     You could get a group of people to confess to being witches under torture, Mike.

     You could get them all to agree on the same group of facts.  It's been done before; it could be done again.  You could get people to confess to being traitors to the Revolution without know what the acts were that were so traitorous, and to which they were confessing.

     Anyway, enough for now.

Nice to speak with you again. I hope that everything down there in Florida is going well for you.  All my best, Bob Kaven.
Balladeer
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47 posted 01-23-2009 11:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The jury is still out on whether he will close Gitmo or not, Bob. Yes, he gave orders to close it within a year but a year is a long time with a lot of wiggle room in it. As in many things, the devil is always in the details. The administration seems to think that, once we show the world how fairly we will treat prisoners, some of the other countries will be willing to take some of them. Ya think? Harry Rheems claims that they would be as well controlled in american penitentaries as they are in Gitmo. Perhaps he is reading the same science fiction as you are.  I fully expect that, within the year deadline, extenuating circumstances will come up to delay  the closing, along the same lines as the extenuating circumstances that have recently caused Obama to state that he cannot comply with his campaign promises, which everyone knew he wouldn't be able to comply with as he was promising them.  What I find so interesting is that, at a time that the economy is on life support, unemployment high, businesses failing, bailouts being the order of the day, two wars continuing, ...all of this going on and Obama chooses to make Gitmo one of the "highest" priority items that gets the most newspaper coverage. I'm not sure the tens of thousands out looking for work really care if Gitmo is open or not.

As far as torture is concerned, you simply do the same thing you have been doing in your other posts....throwing the word torture out there in a generic way, as if the word alone should be enough to make your point, as if the word should bring up draw and quartering, burning at the stake (with reference to your witches under torture comment), cutting off body parts, hot irons poking out eyes, and whatever devilish means used in your science fiction novels. Talk to us about the "torture" used at Gitmo or Abu Ghrab and will will have the basis for a valid conversation. Speaking of science fictions stories and witches has little relevence.

Hope all is well in sunny California, Bob...

Denise
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48 posted 01-24-2009 04:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes Larry, he did, and without "coverage by the media". I think much of what he will do will be without benefit of media coverage. Thank God we have the internet and conserative political action committees and groups that will dig for, and report, everything that the so-called media, who proved during the campaign to be nothing more than Obama cheerleaders, will not cover or report.

Actually Bob, I was concerned about both issues, his signing the Freedom of Choice Act, and the signing of the executive order reinstituting federal funding for abortions overseas.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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49 posted 01-24-2009 04:36 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          Here's a link to an npr show in 2007.  One author (out of two) is talking about a book of documents obtained by the Freedom of Information Act about Gitmo and Abu Gharib and the techniques used there; she with the aclu.  An npr defense reporter appears as well, as a sort of bridge.  Lastly a lawyer that worked in the Reagan White House and Bush 43's first term White House appears:  Something for everybody, Left, Center, and Right.  I thought that this would be a decent conversation opener because it covered the spectrum.

     It will seem a little dated because the Bush White House was at that time still denying anything to do with torture.  It's last position, as I recall, was that it had always acknowledged that there was torture going on and that it had played a part in it.  I think there was some sort of intermediate position where only a few rogue low level people were doing it, or something like that.  If it sounds confusing, that's because the stories those folks were telling were confusing.  Before you start trying to defend the positions the White House was expressing then, you should probably check to see what the most recent ones were before they left office.

     If you remember, Rumsfeld said that it was OK to interrogate up to the point of organ failure, which sounds on the surface fairly humain.  But when you think about what organ failure amounts to in actuality, it may change your thinking a bit.  What's organ failure for, say, a heart;  or a kidney; or an eye; or an ear; or an intestine?  And what do you need to do to produce organ failure to any of these systems?  If you are confused about the definition of torture for these guys, they thought that anything less than organ failure was okay.  Remember?

     Things in California are slightly on the chill side.  My dad died the day after Christmas and I'm still trying to get a handle on it.  I've been woken up a couple of times this week by the sound of his voice calling my name — hypnogogic auditory hallucinations are fairly common following a major stressor like that, but it's still fairly unnerving.  It's also reassuring, I guess, to feel that I've got a piece of the old wolf inside me, which is probably why he's letting me know he's there.

     Best to you, Mike.

     Sincerely, Bob Kaven
 
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