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"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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Not A Poet
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1 posted 01-05-2009 10:08 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Maybe it would be better to make them stop relentlessly launching explosives into Israel.
Balladeer
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2 posted 01-05-2009 10:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It would also be better if they stopped setting up camp in hospitals, schools and churches and hiding behind women and children..
Ron
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3 posted 01-05-2009 10:31 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I agree with Pete. Can you imagine what Bush (or JFK circa 1962) would do if Cuba sent just a single missile into United States soil?

Actions have consequences. The real tragedy here, as in all war, is that those not responsible for the actions are often the first to face the consequences. The outrage is that those hiding behind the innocent . . . know it.
Balladeer
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4 posted 01-06-2009 12:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I think perhaps Jennifer is a descendant of Abraham Linking or perhaps she is just a lynx
JenniferMaxwell
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5 posted 01-06-2009 12:08 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Just so you know, Balladeer, I feel your post calling me a name is insulting and a personal attack so I reported it. Adding a wink doesn't make it humorous, it makes it more offensive.  

Ron
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6 posted 01-06-2009 12:47 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I followed the first link, just to find out what the topic was going to be about. Honestly, I don't usually follow a blind link at all. I certainly don't follow more than one.

That's not because I don't appreciate the information because I do. I just usually get my news outside these forums and reserve my time here for talking to people. I could probably think of a few things I could say to news.yahoo.com, but I doubt anyone over there would be willing to listen. It just wouldn't be much of a conversation.

Does anyone besides Yahoo and CNN have something to say?
Midnitesun
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7 posted 01-06-2009 07:55 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

No matter what steps are taken, the real tragedy is always what happens to the 'innocents' who are forced to grow up in terror, seeing body parts and often being severely injured, many killed. My heart hurts for them, in the Middle East, Darfur...or anywhere else.
But Hamas MUST stop the constant bombardment and terror campaign against the Israelis, stop attempting to destroy an entire culture and religion, as they have vowed to do.
I lived in Israel for a year and remember vividly the sound of Katayusha rockets coming over the border. I remember as if it were yesterday, the afternoon a grenade was tossed onto Jerusalem's Via Dela Rosa not far behind me. An eleven year old Arab girl was buried that day. I also remember seeing/feeling the jolt when a bus blew up behind mine coming out of Tel Aviv; having to lie prone on a bus floor for over an hour in 98+F heat while an Israeli patrol took control of a handful of snipers who were shooting at us.
We live in a world of violence and repression, with global terrorism in the news daily.
I can only dream and hope that some day humans will accept the truth of diversity, and treat all others on this planet with equal rights and opportunities.
Gaza is very close to my heart and mind, which are suffering greatly knowing how difficult to impossible it seems to find a ray of hope that peace will ever prevail.
All I can say is the sooner this episode ends and some semblance of stability is restored, the sooner the children can be 'rescued' from the horrors of all this constant chaos and experience a more 'normal' life.  
Huan Yi
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8 posted 01-06-2009 12:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Ron's point shouldn't be avoided or evaded.

Hamas, (trained and equiped by Iran), is
the problem. They deliberatley use civilians as shields and to create casualties,
(they've gone so far as to deny them exit to Egypt for treatment
when wounded).  They had their chance when Isreal pulled out in 2005,
and chose instead to continue in their purpose to destroy Isreal and its people.


"In the ultimate goodwill gesture, Israelis withdrew from Gaza in August 2005. Israeli soldiers literally dragged devout Jews kicking and screaming from land they believed the Torah granted them. Authorities evacuated 21 Jewish settlements, dismantled 38 synagogues, and even excavated 47 deceased Jews from Gaza’s Gush Katif cemetery. Unwanted dead or alive, the Israelis vanished from Gaza without a trace. The 8,150 Jews who lived there linger only in the memories of their Palestinian ex-neighbors. . .


Israel is now defending itself appropriately, despite the predictable hair-pulling of anti-Israeli journalists and activists. Some complain that Israel’s response is not proportional. If proportionality is key, may Israel shoot 5,422 missiles and mortars indiscriminately into Gaza’s residential neighborhoods?

Israel’s critics scream when Palestinians tragically suffer collateral damage from its attacks on Hamas’s armaments. But they hush up when Hamas uses Gazans as human shields. Hamas’s TV broadcasts ask civilian men, women, and children to protect suspected terror sites from expected Israeli strikes. Hamas wins either way: If Israel retreats, to spare unarmed civilians, Hamas ridicules Israeli weakness. And if Israel attacks, Hamas hollers about Israel’s anti-Palestinian carnage . . .


“For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land,” Hamas parliamentarian Fathi Hammad said on Al-Aqsa TV last February 29. “This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ‘We desire death like you desire life.’"


  http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Y2ZjQ1YTM2ZjFmODM3NzIyZDU1NDgyZTZlNzc1N2E=

Balladeer
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9 posted 01-06-2009 04:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry it's taken so long tp get back to this stirring conversation.

feel your post calling me a name is insulting and a personal attack so I reported it.

Ok, I'm confused. If you'll point out what name I called you, it will help....but I doubt it.
Essorant
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10 posted 01-06-2009 05:30 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Calm down, Jen.  Balladeer was just joking.  
Balladeer
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11 posted 01-06-2009 05:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

John, you are right, of course. Ron's point is completely disregarded, as would be any other's who pointed out the same. Interesting how the attacker is disregarded and the attacked demonized for retaliation. I saw no such outrage at Hamas rockets killing civilians.

Israel's message had been clear.....STOP! But Hamas found that unacceptable. The Hamas leader on tv clearly stated that actions would not cease until Israel was destroyed as a country, no matter what they did. How does one reason with that? When Hamas hides behind women and children, are they blamed when the women and children are injured or killed. Nope, they are not.

The Hamas leader stated two days ago that Israel was retailiating the killing of their women and children by killing women and children in Gaza. I find that to be an incredible statement.....

Right, Essorant. I thought the play on words would be obvious but I was obviously mistaken. I'll be more careful in the future.
rwood
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12 posted 01-06-2009 05:56 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Does anyone out there feel that Israel issues idle threats or warnings?

In the 42 years I've been alive, Israel has been firmly sincere with their conditions/declarations of combat, offensive and defensive. I don't know about everything else they practice, but I'm way over here and anyone close to them should know by now not to hurl explosives into Israel (and expect them to balk or rethink their aims in life.)

Hamas heartless hapless hopeless...now...

sighs

the news isn't news, it's just running and screaming from what those in charge knew and know.
Ron
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13 posted 01-06-2009 06:59 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Our software doesn't make it easy, but I've split this thread as best I could into two separate threads; this one for discussion and another in Announcements & Links where people can follow the links as they wish.
JenniferMaxwell
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14 posted 01-06-2009 07:21 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You missed one in John's post #8. Or is it just links I've posted that you're deleting from the thread?
Grinch
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15 posted 01-06-2009 07:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Can you imagine what Bush (or JFK circa 1962) would do if Cuba sent just a single missile into United States soil?


Playing devils advocate with a vivid imagination perhaps but:

Can you imagine what some Americans would be doing if 25 American states were partitioned off and handed over to a several million Muslims? My guess is that a few good Americans would be lobbing rockets over the new border within days in protest, they’d form the American Liberation Army (probably shortened to ALA) quicker than you could say apple pie and they’d have no shortage of willing volunteers. Then, when the Muslim settlers start pounding American cities to wheedle out the terrorists while accidentally slaughtering innocent civilians can you imagine anyone blaming the whole thing on Americans?


JenniferMaxwell
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16 posted 01-06-2009 11:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Good post, Grinch, one that might open a few blind eyes.

Have you noticed that it seems every time Hamas does stop firing rockets, as they did for several months during the last truce, Israel provokes them?

I was reading an article that said Hamas is no real threat to Israel, but they are the stumbling block that prevents Israel from installing a puppet regime, one more willing to make concessions to Israel’s territorial aims. Therefore, every time Hamas does stop firing rockets and acts more like a legitimate political party, Israel provokes them with an “incursion”, killing and/or capturing Palestinians, which, of course, are war crimes under the Geneva Convention. (And that begs the question, why are we providing aid to war ciminals to the tune of over 8 billion a year?)

Seems to me that’s pretty much what happened as a result of the November 4th incursion. Israel then upped the provocation by closing the borders and restricting delivery of humanitarian aid. Israel is now taking a final shot in this latest bloodbath, killing as many Palestinians as possible before Bush heads off to Preston Hollow and Obama clues Hamas in on what they have to do in order bring Israel to the negotiating table.

I'll post a link to that article in Announcements and Links http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum3/HTML/004617.html

Ron
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17 posted 01-07-2009 12:59 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
You missed one in John's post #8. Or is it just links I've posted that you're deleting from the thread?

It was iffy, Jennifer. In the end, however, John's quotation and link were ostensibly offered in support of what he wrote. People had something to respond to.

I'd really like it if our focus here remained writing, not just quoting other writers. If I want to know what Yahoo and CNN think, I'll go to Yahoo or CNN.

quote:
Can you imagine what some Americans would be doing if 25 American states were partitioned off and handed over to a several million Muslims? My guess is that a few good Americans would be lobbing rockets over the new border within days in protest, they’d form the American Liberation Army (probably shortened to ALA) quicker than you could say apple pie and they’d have no shortage of willing volunteers. Then, when the Muslim settlers start pounding American cities to wheedle out the terrorists while accidentally slaughtering innocent civilians can you imagine anyone blaming the whole thing on Americans?

What you seem to be describing, Grinch, is called war. It sucks. Always has, always will. I, for one, would love to see a viable alternative actually put into play. I don't know of any, though.

What I do know is that when two individuals start throwing punches it's not usually a good idea to grab the arms of just one of them. That influences the fight, sure, but it rarely stops it.


moonbeam
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18 posted 01-07-2009 05:25 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I'm paying for my splurge in PiP before Christmas so this is going to be brief.

This thread is following the usual routine followed by individuals, societies and nations in any conflict situation or commentary upon it: a rehearsal of blame and fault.

Sure, in many cases it may be appropriate or even necessary to do this to reach some form of "justice".  More often than not though, as the British learned in NI, in conflicts at a global or national level the issues are so complex and historically blurred that if there is even a shred of right on both sides then the exercise becomes a pointless waste of time.

Hamas may well be the problem, in the same way as the IRA were the problem.  The IRA blew up one of my office buildings in Docklands and I admit that being in the front line for once, my immediate reaction was to want to retaliate with fire.  But adding fuel to an out of control blaze is not the way to dampen it, whatever the reason it started.  

Israel and America are, like the UK was for a long while, at worst maliciously scheming and at best ignorantly stupid.  One expects a brash young executive (as I was) to act rashly when attacked, one hopes for better from a national government in the 21st C.  Understanding that the key to this situation is to allay the underlying discontents that feed the power of people who simply want to kill, and then acting on that understanding in a sincere way, is the only way to resolve conflict like this.

But then again perhaps the human cycle of misery cannot be broken:

1 Anger and the end of listening

2 Mounting mental and possibly physical aggression

3 Mental and physical weariness of conflict (and killing)

4 Resumption of listening, and compromise

At a world level it would be nice if, one day, two or more  world leaders were mature and brave enough to acknowledge that step 2 inevitably leads to 3 after a lot of innocent people have been hurt, and skip those steps.

Meanwhile I have a horrible feeling that Ron was right about a Cuban missile and Bush's reaction.  

Hopefully Obama will have more wisdom and grace and will not behave like the testosterone charged teen that his predecessor sometimes was.  And if not, then roll on the day when women rule the earth instead of beings who have muscles for brains and granite for feelings.
JenniferMaxwell
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19 posted 01-07-2009 08:05 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Sorry, Ron, but I have difficulty with mixed messages and need clarification on the posting links rule, guideline - whatever it’s called.

What you seemed to be saying in #13 is that the thread would be split, discussion in this thread and all links in Announcements.  Then in #17 you say John’s link wasn’t moved to Announcements because he prefaced the link (and 4  paragraphs of direct quotes from the article) with something he wrote, in essence, a brief, one paragraph summary of the article.

So my question is, can I claim the same privilege, write a paragraph or so and then post in this thread quotes from and links to articles supporting what I've written?

Midnitesun
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20 posted 01-07-2009 08:31 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Ron, for what it's worth? I like the idea of a separate 'links' forum, as it has become tedious to read anything in this forum when we are bombarded with numerous links that are (MHO) rarely if ever objective,  frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods. There are many fine news sources, but it seems the great majority prefer to swallow whole what a handful spew. I like to think the Pipsters are thinking, rational people, and can rise above that marker.

Also, addressing a moonbeam reply:

"Hopefully Obama will have more wisdom and grace and will not behave like the testosterone charged teen that his predecessor sometimes was.  And if not, then roll on the day when women rule the earth instead of beings who have muscles for brains and granite for feelings."

What makes you think that eliminating the male species from leadership roles would somehow bring peace? It's nonsense, and just another 'hate' concept that does nothing to foster understanding, mutual respect, goodwill, or conflict resolution.
What is needed is for HUMANS in general to make major changes in how we behave, how we treat one another. Men and women must be accountable as equal partners in affecting  global politics, economics, and social changes.
JenniferMaxwell
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21 posted 01-07-2009 08:40 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“...it has become tedious to read anything in this forum when we are bombarded with numerous links that are (MHO) rarely if ever objective,  frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods.”

What a coincidence, I often feel the same way about many of the “opinions” posted in the discussion forum - that they’re  “rarely if ever objective,  frequently stuffed with political propaganda, innuendo, and outright falsehoods."

Midnitesun
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22 posted 01-07-2009 09:17 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Opinions are not facts.
It would be great if one's opinions were based upon facts. Sadly, that is rarely the case.
moonbeam
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23 posted 01-07-2009 11:37 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
"Hopefully Obama will have more wisdom and grace and will not behave like the testosterone charged teen that his predecessor sometimes was.  And if not, then roll on the day when women rule the earth instead of beings who have muscles for brains and granite for feelings."

What makes you think that eliminating the male species from leadership roles would somehow bring peace? It's nonsense, and just another 'hate' concept that does nothing to foster understanding, mutual respect, goodwill, or conflict resolution."


Calm down Midnitesun it wasn't in any way meant as a "hate concept".  My comment about women ruling the world was in semi-joke, as I thought was obvious from my over-the-top description of male intelligence and emotions.  

However since you tell me that it is nonsense that eliminating male dominance of world leadership would promote world peace, and since you are so interested in facts, I would simply ask you to reflect on the fact that males instigate and carry out the vast majority of physically aggressive acts.  While it does not follow inevitably from this that a reduction in, or elimination of, male leadership involvement would reduce world violence, it would imo be an experiment worth making.

PS "male species" is a truly frightening concept!  
Midnitesun
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24 posted 01-07-2009 11:48 AM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

LOL, of course, I meant the males of our species.
I didn't read your comment tongue-in-cheek, sorry.
Must be my Chemo treatment side-effects kicking in, I'm not absorbing "humor" today.
 
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