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"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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Ron
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since 05-19-99
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175 posted 01-22-2009 07:16 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
If however you are suggesting, as Margaret Thatcher ineffectually tried to suggest, that it is a "reward" to a "terrorist" group to even talk to an "executive arm" of that group then I think you are wrong.

Fair enough. Though I don't know what an executive arm is or why it would be in quotes? FTR, I wouldn't have any difficulty talking to a terrorist. I doubt he would like what I'd have to say. What I would not do, ever, is negotiate with a terrorist. Like Thatcher and most other civilized leaders, I wouldn't want people to think violence is the best way to get my attention.

quote:
That's the true reward to terrorists Ron ...

The reward, Moonbeam, is giving them what they want. I don't think that's necessarily the same for all terrorists, but I certainly can't accept they all want "martyr status and more power." Power without a goal to drive it is useless.

Terrorism doesn't work. To the best of my knowledge, it never has. It is the refuge of the frustrated, the final gambit of the desperate, the place people go before realizing they can't always have everything they want. Terrorists are criminals. The guy who robs a bank gets a chance to convince me he didn't rob the bank. He doesn't get a chance to talk me into paying him not to rob banks. That would be too much like giving him a doggie treat.


Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


176 posted 01-22-2009 10:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Ron,

          I think you might want to think a bit about your comment that Terrorism not working, Ron.  I think that you'd have to go to some extraordinary lengths to justify that statement.  Certainly It worked in Afghanistan when the Soviets left.  Certainly it worked in Palestine when the British left.  You might chose other examples as well.

     If Terrorism as a basic tactic didn't work, it would have been dropped a long time ago.

     One of the reasons it works so well is that it does the enemy's recruiting for him.  

     Simply because Terrorists are loathsome human beings does not make them stupid human beings, or make what they do ineffective.

     If one is familiar with Clauswitz, then a re-reading of Sun-tsu can be helpful here.  

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Ron
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177 posted 01-22-2009 11:28 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Bob, we're probably operating under different definitions of the word. When the British leave Britain, then I'll agree that terrorism works.
rwood
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since 02-29-2000
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178 posted 01-23-2009 09:00 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey, Bob.

Yep, AJ was not well informed of a declaration of peace, or so they say. Perhaps he was a wee bit Napoleonic? But, no self-respecting Tennessean can discuss the War of 1812 without mentioning his name. Iím most fond of him in my wallet.

quote:
But you shouldn't overlook a number of stupid British over-reactions to local protests which created enormous propaganda victories for the radicals in the American Colonies.  Military over-reactions are what terrorists want, exactly for that reason.  The Boston Massacre comes to mind immediately.


Iím not overlooking any of your excellent points that provided us a ďproperĒ reason for a revolt. The Townshend Acts caused enormous upheaval. I donít see that the British over-reacted. Anyone would have a nervous trigger finger when he knows his fate was just penned by his own greedy overlords.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter,Ē I suppose, but I donít call ďLife, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,Ē a by-product of terrorism. The foundations are radically disjointed.

So we agree upon the fact that Hamasí reasoning isnít anything like the American Revolution, which was my point about death and dying and reasons like Freedom to do so. And I donít know if I can agree on whether Hamas is stupid or not, since no one could call the end result of any victory they may ever achieve ďfamily oriented,Ē at least not within this world. Maybe on some other plane of existence, but not this one, really. I think thatís the problem. I have a different opinion about their quest for Israel. I feel they want people to believe itís a turf war, but theyíre using the turf as a bluff. They wonít stop there even if Israel was handed to them. Itís the people they want dead and the land is just a symbolic setup. Any and all differing ways of life are their grounds for death. Thatís my opinion, and Iím sticking with it until they get happy making babies and they fold their killer cards.

However, you do have a clear point about overreaction, but not every episode from Hamas was met with overreaction. Israel did not strike out every single time Hamas took a swing at them, but they seem to have really struck-out with the public when they did. Itís so terribly sad and confusing and exhausting from every perspective, as you well touch on.

Right now, I feel what Hamas is most successful at is getting people to ride the fence about living arrangements.

Everyone has someone to answer to, here upon the planet, and you're right to point out hired guns and weaponry sales that are devoid of benevolence. We're answering for that in so many ways.

Hamas feels they have no one to answer to but their God.

Good question. What to do about that??

Have a great Friday, Bob.

reg

moonbeam
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179 posted 01-23-2009 09:02 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ron, terrorist "armies" often have cabal of people who purport to be the voice of the army.  People who supposedly don't kill, but put forward the demands of the organisation.  Sinn Fein was for a long time regarded as the executive arm of the IRA for instance.  Thatcher would not talk to them for that reason.  I put it in quotes because a lot of people are still cynical about the application of a pacific word like "executive", implying peaceful business motives, to the  idea of a body of people who apparently try to kill and talk at the same time.  

The point I was making is that by pursuing a policy of war and killing against them you ARE giving them what they want.  You elevate them to hero and martyr status in the eyes of the simple people who make up their underlying base of support.  You give them power.  What they use that power for varies I guess.  To some the power itself is their end I think, those aren't really the terrorists so much as just megalomaniac killers who would seize on any cause to fulfill their desires.  I don't believe they are more than a small minority.  

Terrorism does get attention whether you like it or not.  Look at your sister's dog, look at the average new born baby.   Sure they don't kill, but you get the picture.  Ignoring it, fighting it with fire has already been proven not to lessen the use of it as an attention seeking tactic.  Violence does get attention Ron and always will.  What's important is how you react to that violence, how you deal with attention seeking.

By an amazing coincidence even as I write I learn that Obama has just appointed George Mitchell as Middle East peace envoy.  You remember him?  The guy who was the subject of a huge amount of criticism for "negotiating with terrorists".  The guy who gave up his family life to commute back and forth between Ireland and the US and who earned the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his pains.  Also the guy, who perhaps above all others, ought to be credited with bringing to an end hundreds of years of bloodshed and what people said was an impossible deadlock.  And not with bullets Ron, but with words.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Obama actually is the person that so many want him to be, for just by this single act he's shown a much deeper understanding of the psychology of the so called terrorist, and of human behaviour generally in a seemingly intractable conflict.  

Here's the press release from the Belfast Telegraph just now:

"Mitchell appointed as Middle East peace envoy

Friday, 23 January 2009

The man who chaired the talks that led to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 has been appointed to the post of Middle East peace envoy by President Barack Obama.

Former Senator George Mitchell will spear-head US efforts to negotiate a settlement between Israel and Palestine.

The 75-year-old said he doesn't underestimate the difficulty of the assignment but added that Northern Ireland was once seen as a conflict that couldn't be ended."
quote:
When the British leave Britain, then I'll agree that terrorism works.

You won't have to wait long Ron - we have a far more effective deterrent to remaining here.  It's called Gordon Brown - aka Saviour of the World.  Now I feel sick  
Stephanos
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180 posted 01-24-2009 12:10 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
Hamas feels they have no one to answer to but their God.

Good question. What to do about that??

Well God's just gonna have to answer them differently. (I would say he does and has)  The death and destruction speak a pretty loud divine "you've got me wrong on this one" to me, but then again, some may never hear (though I hope otherwise).  I think religion that slaughters is religion as an excuse to do evil acts (even if one has been self deceived in thinking them to be good).  

Stephen
 
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