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Passions in Poetry

"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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Huan Yi
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125 posted 01-12-2009 12:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"planned this war during the time of the last truce"

Planning wars is what is done during
times of peace so not to lose when it comes.
Many countries including the U.S., Russia,
China, India, etc. do it all the time.

And the rockets did not stop coming . . .

.
JenniferMaxwell
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126 posted 01-12-2009 04:13 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks, for reminding me, John, that I need to be more specific and keep firing away with those links and facts to back up what I post.  

I believe I said planning for this war, not formulating a general war plan.

During the truce period July through November of 2008, there was a grand total of 14 rockets fired on Israel. These were attributed to rogue militants and not Hamas. After Israel broke the truce agreement in November with an incursion, Hamas resumed firing rockets in retaliation not only for the incursion that killed Palestinians and destroyed more farm land, but also because Israel failed for the entire truce period to keep another part of the agreement, removing restrictions on deliveries of food and humanitarian aid.

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127 posted 01-12-2009 04:23 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
These were attributed to rogue militants and not Hamas.


Does Hamas discourage violence of other groups Jennifer?  More doubtful than anything I can think of.  Hamas has not changed their position that a Palestinian State will exist with Jerusalem as the capital, and that Israel should be annihilated.  Until that changes there will be war.  Yes, war invariably involves hatred and inhumanity on both sides, but Israel has no such bellicose policy as this, which is THE perpetual cause of conflict.  It stands to reason that a government with such a policy will always war against Israel, or refuse to punish or even applaud those who do.  It's all the same thing.  Israel is acting in defense.


Stephen    
Huan Yi
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128 posted 01-12-2009 05:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"After Israel broke the truce agreement in November with an incursion"

"incursion" What was the nature of the incursion?

" November

The Israel Security Agency reports a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks, including towards Ashkelon. This was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th. Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.

November 6-12th
Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border, claiming the tunnel is designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to founder.]Between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008


"Weekly Update - November 06, 2008
Significant terror attacks: This week there was a sharp increase in the number of high trajectory weapon attacks (rockets/mortars) from the Gaza Strip into Israel, including towards Ashkelon. This was preceded by an ISA-IDF operation on the evening between November 4th and 5th, which exposed a tunnel ready for use, which was intended for the purpose of a large terror attack within Israel. This Israeli activity was undertaken in order to deal with an impending and urgent threat, and thus was not a rupture of the “Lull.” "

http://www.shabak.gov.il/english/enterrordata/pages/weeklyupdate-11-06-08.aspx


(Note the editing in the first source
versus the second from which it probably came.)

.
JenniferMaxwell
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129 posted 01-12-2009 07:51 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I quite agree, Stephen, Israel isn’t nearly as bellicose, instead of words they use bulldozers and tanks.

John, whether or not you recognize it, you’re saying the same thing I did. The rockets resumed after the incursion November 4th. The only difference is that your source breaks down the figures by weeks rather than days - something that started November 4th would be listed in the time period starting October 29. Funny thing about tunnels on the other side of your neighbor’s fence. You don’t have to step a foot on their property to keep them from coming onto yours.

Here’s a link straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a graph from the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism
Information Center that may help clarify dates, John. Look a little less than halfway down the page and you’ll see the figures by month for 2008. http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

Huan Yi
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130 posted 01-12-2009 08:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"John, whether or not you recognize it, you’re saying the same thing I did. The rockets resumed after the incursion November 4th. The only difference is that your source breaks down the figures by weeks rather than days"


No, my reference explains why
the "incursion" happened.  
Would it make any difference if the
fighting happened on the Israeli side
of the tunnel Hamas built?  I doubt it.

.
JenniferMaxwell
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131 posted 01-12-2009 09:17 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Think about it John. Your enemy is on the other side of a fence with troops and tanks. Are you really going to dig a tunnel and pop your head up right in front of their scopes? That was one of the sillier reasons for the incursion the Israeli propaganda machine came up with. Had the Palestinians that were killed actually been on the Israeli side, it would have made a huge difference. The truce violation would have been theirs instead of the Israelis.

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132 posted 01-12-2009 10:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bice try, John, but your points were ignored, along with Regina's.
JenniferMaxwell
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133 posted 01-12-2009 10:25 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Is there a rule that says posters must respond to every point in all the previous posts? Seems if there is, Balladeer, you just violated it.
Balladeer
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134 posted 01-13-2009 12:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Another diversion added to the list
nakdthoughts
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135 posted 01-13-2009 06:12 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

"think about it" Jennifer,  would just anyone  risk  being a suicide bomber in the middle of busy street markets,on busses etc... not caring who they kill least of all themselves?

moonbeam
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136 posted 01-13-2009 06:24 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Hamas has not changed their position that a Palestinian State will exist with Jerusalem as the capital, and that Israel should be annihilated.  Until that changes there will be war.

No.  

This is the classic mistake that results in deadlock.  Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict.  And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery.
rwood
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137 posted 01-13-2009 08:42 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Jennifer,

In the Spring of 2005, The Palestinians were helping the Israelis decommission their settlement heads as they created their own self-governing officials= Annex 1, which was a requirement also for the Road Map for Peace, (i.e. Oslo II) and the next step= Annex 2, which was helping the Israelis withdraw their forces. It was a 3 step process in the agreement of the Oslo Accords, which they never made it to Annex 3, as laid out for easy reading in wiki.

IMO,  All can argue till the end of time on what went wrong, who did what, and why Annex 3 never came about, but both sides were helping each other up until that point, with some setbacks- which are to be expected in a Bee’s Nest of age old discord.

The ONLY thing that seems to be a modern brick wall to the process, despite the bouts of deaths suffered on both sides, despite the religious contention, terrorism, the posturing of war, the inhumane treatment of civilians, and every other thing that has been present in that area for eons, they were still Tabling peace off and on, UNTIL HAMAS was elected!! Add the lobbing of missiles and you have a new age type war, except Hamas is still a bit out-tech’d on what they have to lob, but hey, a mob of angry women helped to dethrone a French King with garden tools, so I guess it can be done. He was a bit prissy, though Israel is not. Neither is the Palestinian people’s right to be self-governed without suffering the indignity of monsters for leaders or monsters stomping on their core rights to exist as a peaceable and prospering nation. There is much work to do to ensure this, whether another single death occurs or not from either side.

Hamas has always rejected the Oslo Accords, the Road Map for Peace, and anything else that calls for the end to violence. Why should they? They are a terrorist organization! “But Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahhar refused to renounce violence.” wiki.

Are you suggesting that Israel secretly initiated the process for Hamas to be elected by the Palestinian people? So they could reign down on the Gaza Strip for some kind of sick pleasure and resource harvesting?

The United States does not and will not negotiate with the Hamas regime. Like it or leave it, but I feel that expecting another country to negotiate with groups that our nation expends itself to put an end to is a form of bigotry, in that “Not I, but you need to lower your standards and tolerate Hamas.”

Again, I say, back to the table. For the people’s sake, and whatever the beliefs are that preserve life, not take it away. Unfortunately, to some, bloodshed is life, and this is religiously expended for the sake of personal rewards in the hereafter, which is their passion for “peace at last” and not possible, here, in hell with the infidels.
Huan Yi
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138 posted 01-13-2009 10:22 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict.  And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery."

Which pretty much leaves going away
or turning the other cheek
while they cut off your head.

.
Stephanos
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139 posted 01-13-2009 10:52 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Hi Moonbeam,

it's been what, at least a year since we've talked.  

quote:
Me: Hamas has not changed their position that a Palestinian State will exist with Jerusalem as the capital, and that Israel should be annihilated.  Until that changes there will be war.


MB: No.  

This is the classic mistake that results in deadlock.  Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict.  And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery.


I am saying nothing about what the "first step" should be.  I am merely stating a fact, that until they change their minds war is inevitable.

On the other hand, we shouldn't be shocked that Israel is fighting back, and refusing to accept such a murderous policy on the part of Hamas.  I don't believe that Israel would be aggressive if the Palestinians agreed to live in peaceful coexistence.  I don't believe the same would be true of Hamas.  To them, the existence of Israel in the Middle-East is intolerable, whatever the conditions.


Stephen
moonbeam
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140 posted 01-13-2009 02:11 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
"Trying to change the "minds" of fanatics and madmen as a FIRST step is NOT the way to resolve conflict.  And, more particularly, trying to change such minds using physical force is a sure path to long term misery."

Which pretty much leaves going away
or turning the other cheek
while they cut off your head.

No, it leaves the option of trying to remove the circumstances that give them power and support.

quote:
I am saying nothing about what the "first step" should be.  I am merely stating a fact, that until they change their minds war is inevitable.


Hi ya Stephen - Happy New Year (Three quarters through The Everlasting Man for the second time in 30 years - amusing but annoying!)

I disagree with that too.  There are still men in NI who would gladly start a war with England.  Their minds are no less determined on it than the day they blew up Manchester.  But they've been marginalised, rendered impotent.
Huan Yi
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141 posted 01-13-2009 02:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

“No, it leaves the option of trying to remove the circumstances that give them power and support.”

“Why don’t the Palestinians vote for some representatives who would make a lasting peace with Israel? Because any such candidates would be killed by the terrorists long before election day, so nobody volunteers for that dangerous role.”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWE3Mzg0NTMzYjdlOTAxY2JkMmU1ZjllOWM2M2Q4YmI=

Which is not news.  The “circumstances” are Hamas has weapons and a reputation
for killing anyone who gets in their way.  How many times does that have to be
shown and known?  The point has already been made and ignored:

“““We hope that Hamas keeps on inventing new ways of killing the people so the rest of the world knows the truth and the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are," said Rami, 35.””


Fatah, Hamas Battle in Gaza Threatens Government
All Things Considered, June 12, 2007

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10988462  


"and ask what the real reasons were"

Maybe it was:

""the reality of Hamas and how vicious they really are,""”


All the while, all quiet on the West Bank . . .
Also ignored.

.


JenniferMaxwell
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142 posted 01-13-2009 06:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Where is your original post about the West Bank, John? I can't seem to find it.

Regina, I'm sure I posted an article about US/Israeli influences that helped bring Hamas to power. Sorry, don't have time to search for it now, but if you're really interested, it is there.
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143 posted 01-13-2009 11:31 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Moonbeam:
quote:
I disagree with that too.  There are still men in NI who would gladly start a war with England.  Their minds are no less determined on it than the day they blew up Manchester.  But they've been marginalised, rendered impotent.


And marginalized, in my world, means a large-scale change of mind.  Hamas has not been marginalized, but holds a view quite ubiquitous in the Muslim world ... even if toned-down in some quarters.  


Everlasting Man eh?  Quite a book.  If you get a chance read "Orthodoxy".  The Everlasting Man is good, but bewildering to my mind.  Orthodoxy is pithy, concise, and engaging. (Of course, I am sort of a choir member, I suppose)  If you ever want to discuss particular frustrations / joys, I'd be thrilled.  I rarely ever meet anyone who reads Ol' Gilbert.


Stephen
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144 posted 01-14-2009 04:06 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
And marginalized, in my world, means a large-scale change of mind.  Hamas has not been marginalized, but holds a view quite ubiquitous in the Muslim world ... even if toned-down in some quarters.  


Everlasting Man eh?  Quite a book.  If you get a chance read "Orthodoxy".  The Everlasting Man is good, but bewildering to my mind.  Orthodoxy is pithy, concise, and engaging. (Of course, I am sort of a choir member, I suppose)  If you ever want to discuss particular frustrations / joys, I'd be thrilled.  I rarely ever meet anyone who reads Ol' Gilbert.

Ok, we sort of agree then, though the actual number of really vicious (for that is what they are) "minds" that are driving this are probably very small and they will probably never be changed.

Bewildering for me only in the sense that sometimes it makes me feel like he is trying to bludgeon his points over with superlatives rather than analytical reasoning.  He seems to magic convincing sounding syllogisms out of nowhere, and it's only later that you ask yourself: what was THAT all about!  But his sense of humour is my sense of humour, so that makes up for it a little.  I first came to Chesterton through one of my favourite authors, Dickens, but, at the time, reading EM caused me to venture no further, so I'll try and take your advice and read Orthodoxy.  

One thing became clear to me though as I read, and that's where your propensity to use the word "mere" originates from when you're in debating mode.
Stephanos
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145 posted 01-14-2009 08:50 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Moonbeam,

I am merely imitating one of the greatest writers ever.  

Stephen
rwood
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146 posted 01-14-2009 09:15 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Jennifer,

If you mean that the U.S. insisted that the Palestinian people have a fair and free election process after the death of Arafat in 2004, then yes, there is an influence toward an elected power, but the U.S. firmly objected then, when Hamas was entered into the electoral, and firmly objects now. If your link covers that important bit of information, then I’ll look it up. Otherwise, statements such as yours are about as reliable as the notion that Hamas put Obama in the White House.

Empowering “conjecture” may help many people to posture their attitudes and positions in life, but it tends to suppress people’s potential by fitting it squarely into a bourgeois box. We can add that to the list of mistakes that we all make from time to time. But, Hamas was voted in by the Palestinian people, which is a cold hard fact. And I feel Hamas worked very hard, on their own, to get there. With their goals, why is it so hard to believe that they didn’t need any help from anyone, be it the U.S. Israel, or some guy in Tokyo?
JenniferMaxwell
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147 posted 01-14-2009 10:29 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"If your link covers that important bit of information, then I’ll look it up."

It does, Regina. But isn't it being a bit narrow-minded to refuse to read something unless it contains a particular piece of information? I often read articles expressing a totally different viewpoint than mine, and haven't yet asked anyone to screen them before I do to make sure they contain certain facts, those I happen to think important or agree with. If one doesn't read both sides of an issue then don't you run the risk of having a viewpoint that's terribly skewed?
Anyway, time to move on. Thanks so much for sharing your point of view and doing so in a very polite and courteous way.
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148 posted 01-14-2009 11:31 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

Moonbeam:
quote:
sometimes it makes me feel like he is trying to bludgeon his points over with superlatives rather than analytical reasoning.


He would be the first admit that he isn't playing the part of logician, since, a major theme in all of his works is the limitation of reason.  On the other hand, he would insist that only by acknowledging a mystical source, can one allow reason to breathe and live.

As far as grandiloquent and bombastic style goes, yeah that's Chesterton alright.  Pugnacious but lovable, I say.    

quote:
He seems to magic convincing sounding syllogisms out of nowhere, and it's only later that you ask yourself: what was THAT all about!


I'm sure he would invite the questioning of his particular syllogisms, as long as you take his deeper point that without God, the validity of syllogism itself must accepted quite "out of nowhere".


quote:
I first came to Chesterton through one of my favourite authors, Dickens, but, at the time, reading EM caused me to venture no further, so I'll try and take your advice and read Orthodoxy.


Oh, and "Manalive" is very good as well, to give you a taste of his fiction.  You simply must experience that in comparison to his overtly apologetic works.

PS, I was tempted to say "mere logic" but resisted, are you proud of me?  

Stephen      
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149 posted 01-14-2009 08:53 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     What happens if we assume that everybody here is correct?

     While I might disagree with some of the details that one side or the other might bring up, It seems to me that everybody makes telling points, and most of them are based in a painfully acute view of reality.  While I would be comforted if these views were mutually exclusive, I believe they are not.

     The issue to my mind is what do we do with human beings acting imperfectly as human beings are apt to act in conflictual situations, where fault and glory are available to everybody in full measure?  Blaming the other guy and demanding that they change has been the strategy of choice in this go-around since 1948; it is perhaps the only thing Arab and Israeli have reached agreement upon.  It sounds to me as though we, as a group, are firmly behind backing this losing strategy for another 60 years.  At least this is the set of fixed positions we seem to take each time the subject comes up.

     If this is the case, we are all of us headed toward places where global warming is the rule and the method of transport is the hand-basket rather than anything fueled with fossil fuel.

     Why not start out with the basic assumption that everybody is right, and try to work out the contradictions rather than try to waste time fixing the blame.  There's more than enough to go around for everybody to have their fill and more, and with legitimacy.  Nobody's actually lying when they say they believe they're in the right here.  Nobody's lying when they say they think other folks are wrong.

     That's merely the place we need to start from.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
 
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