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Passions in Poetry

"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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Balladeer
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100 posted 01-10-2009 08:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

that many of the more "legitimate" governments of the middle east support terror against Israel.  Israel is not a welcome nation in the MidEast, period.

Not much doubt about that. For one thing they hate was Israel has accomplished. Where there were once stretches of desert (such as still are in the other surrounding countries) Israel has created fertile farming by using irrigation and watering techniques. Just look at Israel and then the other countries and it will seem like you are looking at countries from another planet. Israel has worked hard for what they have and I daresay there is a lot of bitterness, resentment and embarrassment from the other countries who have not. They would rather bring Israel down to their levels than rise to theirs. Palestinians are starving? Who supplies food to Israel? Certainly not their neighboring countries. They take care of themselves.

Every dictator, terrorist group, or military-controlled government needs an enemy to maintain control, have a cause to unite the people and have something to be united against. Israel fits that bill very well. Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a jihad against the Jews an do their best to insure the hatred is maintained.

They have no problem bringing in the thousands of rockets used to bomb Israeli towns but they can't bring in food or supplies for their people? I propose they don;t want to. They want people hungry, angry and hating the Jews. Even now, when Israel is in full attack mode, they will not stop shooting off their rockets at small towns for no apparent military reasons, whatsoever. They hide among civilians to fight. These leaders could care less about their people and also any desire for the cessation of hostilities. They thrive on it.

This time they may have miscalculated, however and they may pay the price for that miscalculation.
Balladeer
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101 posted 01-10-2009 08:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I find it interesting, especially since I posted that one thread about why Liberals seem to hate, Israel...
I'd say: I told ya so, but I still don't get why they support Palestine so much and seem to really dislike Israel.  


An excellent question, one that gets to the core of liberalism.
Ron
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102 posted 01-10-2009 08:50 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... 95 posts to this thread, and all of them were on topic for once!

Until yours, you mean?

Let's talk about the topic, please. Not the other people posting to the thread.


threadbear
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103 posted 01-10-2009 09:17 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I fixed it, and had to laugh at the accuracy of your statement!  I kinda thought you might say that.  Had my eraser handy.
Jeff

but...you might admit that there is either a
I'm For Israel
I'm Against Israel
flavor to this thread.
moonbeam
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104 posted 01-11-2009 06:55 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
It just astounds me how many folks on the Left still stick up for the Palestinians.

It's broad sweeping comments like this that promote the us and them thinking that you complain of Jeff.  I've never voted anything but Tory in my life and probably will never change, I was educated at one of the foremost public schools in the UK, I venerate Margaret Thatcher and most of what she did and I have no time for left wing militants of any variety.  But I hope I can still see and condemn hypocrisy, inequity and sheer illogical stupidity even when such condemnation runs counter to my natural political inclinations.  And that's quite apart from any humanitarian considerations.

And Stephen, "governments" aren't "the people".  Certainly legitimate governments have covertly supported Hamas, just as the Irish government assisted and turned a blind eye to IRA activities, and your own government and mine are by no means blameless in assisting dubious organisations if it furthers their own selfish ends.  Governments almost always act in their own self interest.  Their self interest is staying in power.  They stay in power with the authority of people.  Desperate people generally engender bad governance.  I don't deny that the challenge of changing people's views is immense (as it was in Ireland); I do deny that the best way of doing it is to kill people.  The current situation fits in with your Christian views how?  Stephen.  A just war maybe?
moonbeam
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105 posted 01-11-2009 07:03 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
Every dictator, terrorist group, or military-controlled government needs an enemy to maintain control, have a cause to unite the people and have something to be united against. Israel fits that bill very well. Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a jihad against the Jews an do their best to insure the hatred is maintained.


quote:
Every military-controlled government needs an enemy to maintain control, have a cause to unite the people and have something to be united against.  Gaza fits that bill very well. Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a milhemet mitzvah against the Palestinians and do their best to insure the hatred is maintained

Yawn.
Balladeer
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106 posted 01-11-2009 09:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Instead of explaining to their citizens why they are not providing them with the basic services governments are expected to supply, they simply maintain a milhemet mitzvah against the Palestinians and do their best to insure the hatred is maintained

The invalid point of your comment is that the Israel government DOES provide the basic services to their people.

I can understand the yawn. Perhaps you were half-asleep when you wrote that?
Grinch
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107 posted 01-11-2009 11:53 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Palestinians = bad
Israelis = good

Or

Palestinians = good
Israelis = bad

Gets us absolutely nowhere.

Apart from the Israelis exterminating all the Palestinians or vice versus has anyone got any constructive ideas regarding how this problem might be resolved? Or does nobody really care as long as their “team” win.

If we’re just picking sides I’m supporting the Palestinian people but I’m still voting Conservative.

moonbeam
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108 posted 01-11-2009 01:53 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Yes I was half asleep Balladeer - bored to tears by the predictably shallow approach of partisans on both sides of the argument.  Grinch put it very succinctly.  

And although the analogy wasn't perfect, the important parts of it were quite valid I think, while the bit you pulled me up on was a triviality, and moreover in relative terms i.e. with the resources available to and the restrictions place upon the respective sides, the Palestinians probably aren't doing too badly.

A good start Grinch would be to convince the Israelis to stop their counterproductive attack.  
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109 posted 01-11-2009 03:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
A good start Grinch would be to convince the Israelis to stop their counterproductive attack.


That’s easy Moon -  Threadbear and Deer can tell you how to do that - you just need to stop the military wing of Hamas lobbing rockets over the border into Israel - and they’ll do that if Israel stops their attack, but they’ll only do that if..



Even if you could get either of them to accept a ceasefire it wouldn’t be permanent.

I’d ignore the Israelis and the Palestinians and concentrating on getting Jen and Threadbear to agree on a solution first. After them you’d need the backing of the Arab League, then you’d have to convince the UN. Once you’ve got a solution that satisfies and seems reasonable to all of them the Israelis and Palestinians wouldn’t have a choice but to accept it.


Huan Yi
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110 posted 01-11-2009 06:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


.

Do what the Israelis did in Gaza,
except move every Jewish thing and one
living or dead to New Mexico . . .

.
JenniferMaxwell
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111 posted 01-11-2009 11:07 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

There have been a couple of posts stating something like the people of Gaza are starving because that’s what Hamas wants to happen - totally discounting the effect the Israeli blockade has had on the economy in Gaza ever since 1967. For those who may not know, Israel controls not only land access into Gaza but also patrols both air and sea so that nothing goes in or out without their permission. They’ve also restricted fishing, what used to be a primary food source for Gazans.  Here are a couple of articles on that topic:

“In 2007, after the election of Hamas, Israel imposed a total blockade of Gaza -- no imports, no exports, no movement by land or sea, reduced electricity, fuels and drinking water. Some food aid was allowed to dribble in. Palestinians survived by pulling food through hand-dug tunnels from Egypt. The effects have been devastating.

Today, only 23 of Gaza's 3,900 industrial enterprises are operating. Gaza is forced to dump 70 million liters of raw sewage daily into the Mediterranean Sea because Gaza lacks the fuel and spare parts to operate the sewage treatment plant. Eighty percent of Gazans would starve if not fed by aid agencies. Normally the fall sardine-fishing season provides a cheap source of protein for Gazans. This year, the Israeli Defense Forces reduced Gazans' fishing area, preventing Palestinians from harvesting sardines.”
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_11409100


“When asked about major differences between pre- and post-1967, he elaborated, “For me, the most important to mention is the destruction or usurpation of Gaza’s natural resources and thus our self-sufficiency and ability to trade. For example, our water. The [Mediterranean] sea provided the backbone for Gaza’s economy, so Israel instituted policies that removed our ability to live off our resources, such as preventing fishing and refusing to allow Palestinians to trade or sell goods to other countries.” (Palestinian goods must pass through Israel by Israeli law, and Palestinians must accept whatever Israel decides is “fair market value.”)

In addition to limiting freedom of movement, restricting trade and destroying Gaza’s natural resources or access to them, Israel also has decimated a thriving economy over the past four decades. Prior to 1967 Gaza exported citrus, carpets, pottery, embroidery, textiles and woven fabric throughout the world. The elimination of Gaza’s industries transformed the small coastal strip from a wholly independent into a dependent society.”
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705022.html  
Ron
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112 posted 01-11-2009 11:29 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
For those who may not know, Israel controls not only land access into Gaza but also patrols both air and sea so that nothing goes in or out without their permission.

Jennifer, I think you just found the solution to this whole mess. Someone needs to tell Israel to STOP giving Hamas permission to bring in those rockets! Geesh, you'd have thought someone over there would have come up with that a long time ago?

You really don't get it, do you?
JenniferMaxwell
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113 posted 01-11-2009 11:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Do you get it that the reason Hamas was voted in had a lot to do with oppression and the blockade? Starve and imprison people and they're very likely to be ticked off enough to do wild and crazy things like fire rockets at their tormentors.
JenniferMaxwell
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114 posted 01-11-2009 11:46 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Actually, now that I think about it, what better way to take back Gaza and control the marine gas fields and the oil that most likely lies beneath those gas fields, than by starting a war supposedly because of the rockets. No rockets, no excuse for war? Permission granted!
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115 posted 01-12-2009 12:13 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Two things:

First, Israel controls her borders.  Gaza happens to be INSIDE of that border.  If they didn't control access to the Med Sea, it would allow Iran to absolutely and freely move in arms.  Gosh, surely they wouldn't take advantage of that would they?

Secondly, if you are going to make the highly speculative case that Israel is retaking Gaza for oil, show me one shred of proof without going to Move-On type blogs.  ...otherwise, it's pure supposition.

Why should Israel trust the Palestinians to respect their borders and let them have 100% acess, a hole essentially, to let in terrorists who have say daily: we want to annihilate Israel?

nakdthoughts
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116 posted 01-12-2009 06:41 AM       View Profile for nakdthoughts   Email nakdthoughts   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nakdthoughts

"Starve and imprison people"...I guess, Jennifer, you may be too young or might not understand about the "holocaust" or had relatives tatooed and imprisoned, starved and gassed... The Israelis will never let something like that happen again or be chased from their lands by any group...Their peoples are made up of those having left countries where they  weren't even considered human, where their  properties were  taken from them, where today there are still more peoples of Jewish decent who want to but still can't emigrate to Israel because they have no way out unless aided by other countries.  They fight for their cultural and religious survival.  
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117 posted 01-12-2009 07:47 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Quickies - busy today.
Jeff, I believe there are many reasons why Israel started this slaughter, stopping the rockets being the least of them except as a campaign slogan for the upcoming election now about a month away.  Try reading back issues of JP, that’s where you can find information about the marine gas fields, Israel’s negotiations with BG, the proposed underwater gas line, etc., and why Israel wants if not control then a puppet regime in Gaza.

nakdthoughts, sorry, I don’t know your first name. Anyway, yes, starvation and imprisonment. Did you read the articles I posted in 111? Are you aware that 80% of people in Gaza, because of the blockade, are totally dependent on food aid for their very survival and that Israel restricted delivery of that aid to about 20% of need during the time of the most recent truce and cut it off completely for about two weeks last November around the same time they violated the truce with an incursion that not only killed Palestinians, but also destroyed agricultural land by bulldozing it.
moonbeam
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118 posted 01-12-2009 08:03 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Grinch, regrettably I think a whole lot more people need to die before any serious talking starts, particularly on the Israeli side.  It would be helpful I think if, say, the Russians or the Chinese could just step in and "polish off" 900 Israelis in short order.
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119 posted 01-12-2009 09:05 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Jennifer,

I believe If Israel fed the Gazans and gave them every fundamental need and foundation for prosperity, Hamas’ “radical” need to annihilate Israel would escalate, 10 fold, beyond what it is now. They would consider Israel’s involvement/aid to its people a ploy to corrupt the nation of Islam, or more particularly the Palestinian wing of The Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas’ fundamental goal is to resist any and all influence affecting their traditions and religious beliefs which are intricately woven so tightly into their political beliefs that the threads are virtually one. More power to them and the Palestinian right to be self-governed! But if they think Israel will cave in on the issues when their own fibers are saturated with the blood of their ancestors, it’s not only impractical, it’s insane.

Religion aside! The Oslo Accords was a political move toward peace, and as I see it, both nations still had work to do. Though, Militantly, if Israel had nothing in mind but pure affliction toward their current adversary, they wouldn’t have stripped their forces from within the Gaza Strip. I don’t consider that to be a “psyche’ move and I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for the Palestinians and I’m sure there’s more than what meets the eye on both sides. But if Israel never had any desire for peace and all they wanted was what the strip has to offer, why withdraw? To recharge their batteries??? So they could really go in and easily do what they could have in the first place??

It would be beautiful if both sides could go back to the table with the same passionate energy of explosives and rethink the framework/idea of the Oslo Accords, but rejection without offering a true alternative is usually just rejection, and now the projection of firepower.
moonbeam
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120 posted 01-12-2009 09:26 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
"Starve and imprison people"...I guess, Jennifer, you may be too young or might not understand about the "holocaust" or had relatives tatooed and imprisoned, starved and gassed... The Israelis will never let something like that happen again or be chased from their lands by any group...Their peoples are made up of those having left countries where they  weren't even considered human, where their  properties were  taken from them, where today there are still more peoples of Jewish decent who want to but still can't emigrate to Israel because they have no way out unless aided by other countries.  They fight for their cultural and religious survival.


Is that meant merely as an explanation of, or is it your justification for, the current Israeli behaviour - or maybe both?
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121 posted 01-12-2009 11:27 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Maureen, Nakedthoughts, brings up an excellent point:
It seems that the younger people, who have grown up after the spectre of the Holocaust, don't fully appreciate the entire spectrum of history.  It seems that they are much more likely to focus on current events and their view of Israel is skewed within the last 30 year window.

   The Israeli story is much deeper than that: they've been chased almost out of existence for nearly 3 thousand years.  They are easily the most persecuted group of humans on Earth, and to not take into consideration their current actions with an eye to their past, is simply not seeing the whole picture in proper context.

  Even after WWII, nobody wanted to patriatate the Jewish fugitives.  Even our beloved United States refused entry to Jews AFTER, except for a very low percentage of immigrants.  During the war itself, ship after ship of Jewish immigrants were turned away from the Eastern US seaboards, some of which were forced to return to Europe and were destroyed in transit.  The whole picture is horrific, and largely ignored today.  I don't think I've ever seen a television special on national television about Jewish refugees, yet I have seen beaucoup tv docs/specials on Palestine.  

    A devout Christian believes that the fate of Israel is directly tied to events that will signal the end times.  This small country could very well be the key to the survival of the entire planet, yet most people know only the stereotypes of the Jewish people without knowing the befores/after sagas of them.
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122 posted 01-12-2009 11:48 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Why did Israel withdraw, Regina? Check out UN resolutions think it was spring of 2005. How have things changed since the withdrawal, Israel rules with an iron fist from outside the Strip rather than from within.

Seems like the persecuted have become the bullies, doesn’t it, Jeff? Sort of like many abused children grow up to become abusers.  

Huan Yi
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123 posted 01-12-2009 12:31 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“All Hamas had to do to prevent Israel's act of self-defense was to leave Israel unmolested by terror rockets. All Hamas needs to do now to stop this conflict and spare the Palestinian people it pretends to champion is to stop trying to kill Israelis and agree to let Israel exist in peace.
Hamas didn't, and Hamas won't.”

Which seems to always get lost in discussion.

“How many administrations have to repeat the identical error of believing that, deep down inside, terrorists, gunmen and warlords really want peace every bit as much as we do? Israel's enemies aren't just looking to cut a sharp deal. They want to destroy Israel.

Which part of what they shout in our faces is so hard to understand? “

A good question.

“In this six-decade-old conflict that Israel's intractable neighbors continue to force upon it, there not only are no good solutions, but, thanks to the zero-sum mentality of Islamist terrorists, there aren't even any bad solutions - short of nuclear genocide - that would bring an enduring peace to the Middle East.”

We forget that this has been going on, (along with “serious” negotiations), one way or another since 1948.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01102009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_demons   _of_gaza_149549.htm?page=0

There’s some pretty hard hitting on the Left in the article as well.

As to food:

“As Israel withdrew in 2005, it bequeathed state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in which it cultivated some 30 percent of its vegetables in water-filled containers. Palestinians soon destroyed these high-tech facilities in an attack on Jew-farming techniques.”

Since Israel has about six million people, “30 percent” would translate into something larger
For the people of Gaza.

And again remember 2007:

“Two years later, the Islamo-fascist Hamas seized power from the merely radical Fatah. Inter-Palestinian barbarity exploded. “Women and children have been gunned down trying to get to hospital,” Greg Sheridan reported in June 16, 2007’s Weekend Australian. “Opponents have been bound and gagged and thrown from the tops of buildings.””

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Y2ZjQ1YTM2ZjFmODM3NzIyZDU1NDgyZTZlNzc1N2E=


.
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124 posted 01-12-2009 12:37 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“All Hamas had to do to prevent Israel's act of self-defense was to leave Israel unmolested by terror rockets."

The rockets stopped during the last truce but Isreal kept it's stranglehold, invaded, killed and captured Palestinians, and cut down aid deliveries on even more. I remind you, Israel, by their own admission, planned this war during the time of the last truce.
 
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