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"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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Ron
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50 posted 01-07-2009 11:07 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
“Two residents of the area who spoke with The Associated Press by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.”

I wish there was more information available. SOP would suggest that was two independent news sources, each telling the same story. That doesn't guarantee the truth, but it does lend it greater weight.

It would be nice to know for sure. Truth is, though, if the AP reported that Britney shaved her head, I probably wouldn't have any reason to doubt the story's validity. She has a history, ya know? Hamas has a history, too. Lacking evidence to the contrary, the AP story sounds credible to me.
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51 posted 01-07-2009 11:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sounds creditable to me, too, especially with Hamas' record of hiding behind women and children.
JenniferMaxwell
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52 posted 01-08-2009 03:19 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

So it’s ok to for Balladeer to blow up your house, Ron, if someone on “a street near” your house shoots first?

Also, it’s interesting to note that you both consider two anonymous sources more credible than the identified sources in the JP article, and neither of you, or so it appears, bothered to check other sources for more information before pronouncing judgment. You heard what you wanted to hear and stopped there.

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53 posted 01-08-2009 07:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

....and you, Jennifer, I suppose, checked all sources on both sides before pronouncing yours? I find that unlikely.

Hamas has a record of  sending in suicide bombers to blow up civilians, women and children. They also have a record of setting up shop in synagogues, schools and densely populated residential areas. Where is your outrage over that? How many suicide bombers has Israel sent over there? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up.....zero.

You may champion the murderers if you like and set up all sorts of scenarios where Israel masterminds the Hamas attacks for an excuse to attack them if you like but it is flimsy, at best. perhaps a little more research on the other side may shed more light on your perspective....or not.
JenniferMaxwell
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54 posted 01-08-2009 08:24 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I think, Balladeer, you should try reading more carefully instead of making false assumptions. I haven't taken a position on the school massacre issue, I merely pointed out the headline on the Standard Blog doesn't reflect what the AP actually said.
Not championing anyone, there are murderers on both sides. Unfortunately you and many others don't seem to recognize that fact.

Ron
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55 posted 01-08-2009 10:51 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So it’s ok to for Balladeer to blow up your house, Ron, if someone on “a street near” your house shoots first?

Okay, Jennifer? Certainly not. I think the words you used were "just that it was to be expected?"


JenniferMaxwell
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56 posted 01-08-2009 11:12 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

So what you saying is the Israelis are doing exactly what Palestinian militants did. Doesn't that make them terrorists, too?But,of course on a far grander scale, they've killed 700 and wounded over 3000 in a matter of days.
I was just reading that for the last year, up until the Israelis started this slaughter, no Israeli, not even one, had been killed by rocket fire.

Ron
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57 posted 01-08-2009 01:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So what you saying is the Israelis are doing exactly what Palestinian militants did. Doesn't that make them terrorists, too?

I don't know, Jennifer. Do you think our boys in Afghanistan are terrorists?

I think terrorist is one of those loaded words with no clear definition, used as much to promote hate as to describe something. I don't know if the Palestinians consider themselves terrorists? Even though, in our world, suicide bomber and terrorist are almost synonymous. I doubt the Israelis would characterize themselves as terrorist, and I'm pretty sure our own troops sent to Afghanistan in retaliation for 911 don't think of themselves as terrorists. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. I can tell you there are a lot of people in the Middle East (including Hamas) who are convinced that you and I are terrorists . . . because we indirectly condone and directly pay for the guns and men used to kill other people. They don't make any distinction at all between the person pulling the trigger and those enabling the person. To them, innocent civilian is an oxymoron.

Do you think of yourself as a terrorist, Jennifer? I don't, either. But they do.


JenniferMaxwell
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58 posted 01-08-2009 03:09 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I think you've gone off track. Not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but I am sure you know the definition of terrorism as well as I do.
If you really want to discuss US presence in Afghanistan or Iraq, fine with me, but in another thread.
JenniferMaxwell
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59 posted 01-08-2009 03:52 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

As you may know, I have a special place in my heart for Jimmy Carter. To me he is a man who tru;y walks the walk the way a real Christian should. I also enjoy many of his poems. He sees need and suffering and does what he can to relieve it. His foundation, The Carter Center, sends representatives around the world on missions to help restore peace, human rights and alleviate suffering. Here is what he has to say about the current situation in Gaza. Balladeer might find it interesting as President Carter mentions specifics about his trip to Israel last April.

An Unnecessary War
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/08-11

Balladeer
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60 posted 01-08-2009 04:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Although I consider him to be possibly the worst president the country has had, I applaud him for bring a great humanitarian and basically a good, kind, decent person. We have no disagreement there.

After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism.

Jimmy called it as it is...an inexcusable act of terrorism. No talk of how Israel manipulated Hamas into attacking them, as you have, jennifer.

Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions.

Since, in your earlier post, you claim there have been  zero fatalities, one of you must be mistaken (unless you want to go with a "So 3 deaths...no big deal.) Would you have liked to live in that town, miss?

Israel does something that the United States doesn't do. They fight wars to win them. The last time we did that, Hiroshima went up in smoke. Was it a tragic loss of life? Most certainly. Are the innocent Palestinians a tragic loss of life? For sure. Are the hundreds of Jewish innocents blown up by suicide bombers (which you failed to count in your "zero body count" totals) tragic? No doubt there.

The Jimmy Carter link ends with his belief about peace between Hamas and Israel. There will never be peace between them and Israel knows it. When someone declares they will not rest until you are dead, you may rest assured there will be no other solution than them or you. Israel knows that and is acting accordingly. Hamas will never stop attacking because that is their nature and they have declared so, openly. Innocents on both sides will suffer because that is the tragic repurcussion of war. Hamas could stop all of it by simply stopping. They won't. Gaza will not become a Korea or Viet Nam. Israel will do what it takes to achieve their objective.
JenniferMaxwell
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61 posted 01-08-2009 04:50 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You've misquoted me and totally ignored one of the major provocations, Israel's restriction on the delivery of food into Gaza. Just to refresh your memory:

"...1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day."

"rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels."
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62 posted 01-08-2009 04:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I misquoted you...where?
moonbeam
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63 posted 01-08-2009 05:08 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Jennifer M
quote:
I was just reading that for the last year, up until the Israelis started this slaughter, no Israeli, not even one, had been killed by rocket fire.

Jimmy Carter (via Balladeer)
quote:
Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions.


Balladeer
quote:
Since, in your earlier post, you claim there have been  zero fatalities, one of you must be mistaken (unless you want to go with a "So 3 deaths...no big deal.) Would you have liked to live in that town, miss?

I don't see that there is a conflict between Jenn's statement and Carter's.  Perhaps, Master Balladeer, you'd like to review your comment.
quote:
here will never be peace between them and Israel knows it. When someone declares they will not rest until you are dead, you may rest assured there will be no other solution than them or you. Israel knows that and is acting accordingly. Hamas will never stop attacking because that is their nature and they have declared so, openly. Innocents on both sides will suffer because that is the tragic repurcussion of war. Hamas could stop all of it by simply stopping. They won't. Gaza will not become a Korea or Viet Nam. Israel will do what it takes to achieve their objective.

This is the sort of woeful thinking that keeps conflicts alive for decades and even centuries.  It's not only misguided and lazy, but patently wrong.  You talk as if the stupendous might of the Israeli war machine is going to crush Hamas to dust - to extinguish it.  I don't think so. As V said to Creedy: "Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."
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64 posted 01-08-2009 05:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is the sort of woeful thinking that keeps conflicts alive for decades and even centuries.

No, what keeps conflicts alive for decades and centuries is the fact that no one fights to the finish.

Yes, my money would be on Israel. One only has to look at the 6-Day war where Israel was attacked by multiple countries and polished them off in less than a week.

Woeful, misguided, lazy and wrong...why are you going out of your way to be so nice?
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65 posted 01-08-2009 06:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
One only has to look at the 6-Day war where Israel was attacked by multiple countries and polished them off in less than a week


And presumably they all lived happily ever after. Then again maybe not.

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66 posted 01-08-2009 06:58 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I have a challenge, a serious one:

name one promise or concession that the Arab community has kept their word on during peace negotiations with Israel.  Just one.

Israel gave them back the Gaza Strip, which is like the United States giving Texas back to Mexico.  

Israel really just wants to 'be left alone.'  That's their whole foreign policy except with England, Australia and the United States.  Leave us alone, but if you threaten us, we'll fight back.  So how come it's ALWAYS what ISRAEL has to give up to get peace?  

I've been researching the Middle East for about 15 years now, and i am STILL looking for any tangible concessions or promises the Arab countries have kept in regards to Israel.  

[This message has been edited by threadbear (01-08-2009 09:41 PM).]

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67 posted 01-08-2009 07:16 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Israel gave them back the Gaza Strip


Odd use of the word “gave”.

“I stole your lawn mower last fall but in the interests of neighbourly trust and harmony I’m willing to give it back if I get to keep the hedge trimmer I took at the same time”.

Maybe that’s what they mean when they say “a little give and take”.

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68 posted 01-08-2009 09:48 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Well, not exactly, Grinch.
5 Arab nations bullied together to kick Israel's butt, and they themselves got their arse handed to them.  As punishment for their unprovoked attempt to annihilate Israel, Israel kept the furthermost part of their defense to the West: the Gaza Strip.

  Gaza is of tremendous strategic importance because of his geographical location WITHIN Israel itself.  They already have to defend 360degrees around them, and now they have to defend within their own borders.  I have alot of respect for Israeli Jews:  their resilience and bravery should be admired: not condemned.

My sympathies lie with the underdog here.  They're surrounded like an island by billions of screaming Muslims. That ain't pretty.  
Oh, and gee, can you please give us back the land we lost when we gang-jumped you?  
JenniferMaxwell
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69 posted 01-08-2009 10:50 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Jeff, since you’ve done a lot of research on ME issues, perhaps you could answer a couple of questions for me. What’s the current status of negotiations between Israel and BG for the purchase of natural gas from the BG's offshore concession in Gaza and what is the status of plans for an underwater pipeline that would transport gas from the Gaza Marine Field to an Israeli refinery at Ashkelon?

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70 posted 01-09-2009 12:00 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I'm not up on Israel's micro-economics.  I follow the historic and the political.  It's basically impossible to follow another country's economic ins/outs if you don't live there, so I don't even try.

All I know is Ashkelon is a receiving city in northern Israel for either gas or power, and could be the link for Egypt to provide power or have gas sent back to them.  

***www.middleeastprogress.org/2007/10/innovative-energy-approaches-could-aid-regional-stability/*****

That website is pretty decent at detail, but frankly, i couldn't keep all that data in my head if i had to.

There's been rumors for years that Israel is secretly sitting on either a gas or oil reserve or both.  Here is something I ran across from in 2006:

Oil Struck At Dead Sea September 27th 2006.
Oil spurted Monday at a depth of about 1,800 meters during drilling near the Dead Sea. The drilling was planned only to reach 2,000 meters. Drilling partners, Ginko Oil Exploration and Lapidot are expected to carry out a series of tests in the coming days in order to estimate the quantity of oil found in the drilling, and its value.
According to geologist Gidon Gab-Am, there is an estimated two strata of oil, one of which contains about 5.5 million barrels of oil, and the other about one million barrels. As per today's crude oil prices, this quantity is worth between USD 300-350 million.


I'm sure your question has a purpose, now that i've revealed my ignorance, what is the question?

My guess is that you think Israel spies a cash-cow of gas (pardon the pun) and wants the profits for themselves, as in: give us Gaza back.
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71 posted 01-09-2009 06:11 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks for the info, Jeff, I really appreciate it. And here's a link to an article you might find interesting. Seems that one of the first things Hamas did after getting elected was to declare that the natural gas deal would have to be renegotiated. Does tend to make one wonder about Israel's motives.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Gas_deal_coming_polls_behind_military_operations_in_Gaza/articleshow/3935036.cms

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-09-2009 07:44 AM).]

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72 posted 01-09-2009 07:00 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

The intentional slaughter of civilians in Gaza continues while the US prepares to send Israel more military supplies just as it did at the close of the Israeli war with Lebanon when it sent Israel shipments of cluster bombs for a final bloody assault.


Israel Shelled Gaza House Crowded With Civilians: Witnesses

The UN report said that "according to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors. Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ghh3i-gp2cb36Mu7jxu6-xfBtnHw


“Israel’s “moral high ground” in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard." - Kucinich
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73 posted 01-09-2009 08:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting article, Jennifer, I have to say I find it impossible to believe. It simply doesn't make any sense, as a deliberate act. Why would they load the people into houses and then bomb the house? Makes no sense at all when you  think about it. It would not be hard to get "several testimonies" stating that Jews eat barbequed Muslims for breakfast.

It could also be true, a mistake in communications between the ground forces and the air force...which wouldn't make it any less horrific but would not be what the article may be suggesting - that they corraled civilians into a house for the purpose of bombing the house. Now, if Hamas bombed the house, killing their own, for the purpose of blaming Israel, I would find that to be more plausible because that is their documented style. It is not Israel's.
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74 posted 01-09-2009 09:14 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I found it difficult to believe Israel would use phosphorous shells and fire more than a million cluster bomblets on the civilian population of Lebanon until I read the testimony of an IDF commander who later referred to those acts as “ insane and monstrous”.  Monstrous and insane also fits the bill in this case and instances where it’s already been documented Israel bombed schools, medical centers, medical convoys, aid workers, supply convoys, power plants, etc., etc., denied aid workers access to the wounded and used Palestinians as human shields when troops took over residences in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwd7i5JRRfE


“Israel’s “moral high ground” in Gaza, a growing pile of small bones in a graveyard.”-Kucinich
 
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