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Passions in Poetry

"For God's sake, rescue them!"

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JenniferMaxwell
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25 posted 01-07-2009 12:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I just read this and it made me wonder about several things:

“Iraq's Prime Minister Wednesday called on all Arab and Muslim countries to cut their ties with Israel, calling the Israeli military attacks on Gaza "a dreadful crime," according to a press statement.

Nouri al-Maliki said that "we ask Arab countries and all Muslims to cancel their diplomatic relations and stop all contacts - private and public - with this murderous regime, which continues its painful aggression against peaceful, unarmed civilians."

"There are disputes worldwide, but to reach this degree of crime, which kills children and women is unacceptable. The international silence is very disturbing to us, we hope the international community and the Security Council would take fast decisions, clear and explicit to stop the massacres against the Palestinian people," he added.”
(I won’t post a link until I hear from Ron in response to my question in #19 as to whether or not it’s ok to do so.)

First, it made me wonder if Israel had ever been part of the coalition of the willing that helped the US kill a hundred thousand so innocents Iraqis. I checked Wikipedia and they weren’t on the list. If that’s true, since we’re giving Israel 8 billion a year, and they’re one of the most highly militarized countries in the world, why weren’t they willing to help us by putting boots and equipment on the ground in Iraq?

And finally, the obvious question, why is Maliki condemning Israel for killing innocents in Gaza and not the US for killing innocents in Iraq? Why is he demanding all Arab and Muslim countries cut ties with Israel while at the same time he continues to maintain diplomatic relations with the US, a country that’s killed far more innocents (his own people, for heaven’s sake, and mostly women and children!) than the Israelis have in Gaza?
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26 posted 01-07-2009 01:11 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I agree with Ron, that "collateral damage" is simply the result of war, period.  

That doesn't speak anything of the legitimacy of either cause, Zionism or Palestianism.  

"Palestinian" groups have been attacking Israel ever since I can remember.  And I am of the opinion that the whole Palestinian nationalism movement is a ruse, and much more ephemeral than the real semetic culture and history of Israel.  Palestine has never been a sovereign state of any kind, but a mish-mash of arabic/semitic peoples ruled by various empires through the centuries.

That doesn't mean that I am pro-war, or that I don't find all of this completely absurd and heartbreaking.  I do.  Midnitesun is right that only the transcendent can help us rid ourselves of such conflict (though we might disagree on the nature of that transcendence, I think we're trying to describe a somewhat common goal)


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27 posted 01-07-2009 01:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"since we’re giving Israel 8 billion a year, and they’re one of the most highly militarized countries in the world, why weren’t they willing to help us by putting boots and equipment on the ground in Iraq?"


Take some time to think about that . . .


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28 posted 01-07-2009 01:45 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I already have, but the conclusion I came to only adds fuel to the fire.

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29 posted 01-07-2009 02:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Collateral damage or direct targets as in Israel's bombing of a school sheltering families forced out of their homes by the ground assault?

688 Palestinians killed and Israel claims 130 of them were militants. Someone needs a new scope on their killing machine.

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30 posted 01-07-2009 03:02 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

The building you refer to was NOT even a Palestinian building at all!
It was a UN relief center/school that HAMAS took over, just like they have several other UN sites, totally illegally.  HAMAS then shot RPG's at armored vehicles from this center WITH people in it, and from the roof they shot anti-aircraft weaponry at Israeli airplanes.

  Israel saw exactly where the anti-aircraft fire was coming from and bombed it.  

What you fail to see is that HAMAS MADE HOSTAGES out of several hundred people BEFORE they shot at the Israeli plane, when they took control of a building that wasn't theirs to take control of.

Terrorist organizations KNOW that most civilized people won't fire back at them if they setup in mosques or aid centers.  The exception to that equation is, of course, Israel.
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31 posted 01-07-2009 03:14 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Ok, I'll bite, how about posting something to back up your statements from credible sources. In case you're not aware, we can't post links in this thread, but you can post them here:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum3/HTML/004617.html
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32 posted 01-07-2009 03:55 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Supporting Link

The point, Jennifer, is that HAMAS is a nasty nasty terrorist organization with weaponry and financial support from Iran.  HAMAS has taken over the Gaza strip in every role including government.  Hamas did this almost immediately after Israel gave Gaza back to Palestine.  The NEXT DAY HAMAS started shelling Israel from their new closer position to Israel.  This was the ONLY stipulation that Israel made to Palestine:  don't shell us from there, and we'll give back Gaza.  That was one heck of a concession, as most people thought Israel would NEVER give Gaza back since the Muslims have broken almost all their promises to Israel negotiated during peace treaties.  

    Hamas is USING Palestine as a terrorist pawn right now, to garner Muslim and world opinion against Israel.  They are literally poking Israel in the eye with a stick, day after day, and Israel says: day after day, do it again, and we'll retaliate.  Eventually they do.  No suprise.  If you pull a weapon on a cop, don't be shocked when they pull out a GUN and shoot you in self-defense.  It may be stronger than a knive, but you should'be be threatening cops with a weapon.  

     Let's look at something else, miiltarily:  Israel knows that you can't just 'bomb' terrorists away.  They hide in residential areas, which is unavoidable since they could never win a battle in open field.  They fight where they live, and they know EXACTLY what targets are OFF-LIMITS due to humanitarian reasons.  Most military organizations even publish a paper list of them.  Well, guess what?  These are the safe havens where they can move into and out of without fear of retaliation.  The building blew up, right down to the last brick, further adding speculation that explosives and arms were accumulated there.

[This message has been edited by Ron (01-07-2009 04:46 PM).]

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33 posted 01-07-2009 05:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So my question is, can I claim the same privilege, write a paragraph or so and then post in this thread quotes from and links to articles supporting what I've written?

Sure, Jennifer, if you want to offer your opinion and then support it with quotations and links, that's fine. That's not the same thing as bombarding us with someone else's opinions. When you post only a quotation and link, to whom do we respond? You? They're not your words. Them? They're not listening.

quote:
Understanding that the key to this situation is to allay the underlying discontents that feed the power of people who simply want to kill, and then acting on that understanding in a sincere way, is the only way to resolve conflict like this.

Unfortunately, Moonbeam, sometimes the underlying discontents can't be allayed. When two women want the same child, cutting it in half rarely solves the problems and sadly we don't seem to have any leaders today with the wisdom of Solomon.

quote:
If that’s true, since we’re giving Israel 8 billion a year, and they’re one of the most highly militarized countries in the world, why weren’t they willing to help us by putting boots and equipment on the ground in Iraq?

We didn't invite Iran to join the invasion of their neighbor, either, Jennifer.

Adding Israel to the coalition would have escalated a small war into World War Three, as every country in the Middle East rushed to Iraq's defense. And it wouldn't be because they like Saddam, either. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

quote:
And finally, the obvious question, why is Maliki condemning Israel for killing innocents in Gaza and not the US for killing innocents in Iraq?

Or, for that matter, Hamas for killing innocents in Israel?


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34 posted 01-07-2009 05:45 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Ron, I agree with you about blind links.
Unless I miss my guess, this current board is about 'personal opinion' and not some bloggist's or radio/tv personality's op.

I think it also helps to point out that there is a distinction between
A) a hard news link
B) blogger post or blind video link

(hey, an interesting aside (or not):
it used to be a video was definitive proof that something happened.
Have y'all noticed that we can no longer put total faith in video, now that they can be altered and edited with ease?    It seems to me that printed detail of a news item is more 'credible' than a U-Tube video, nowadays. )
Used to be a picture was worth a 1000 words.
Now its only worth a dozen words.
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35 posted 01-07-2009 06:29 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks for the clarification on the posting rules, Ron.
On investigating further, I found sources that believe Israel was present in Iraq carrying out covert operations. Not sure at this point how credible that information really is.
Here's a link to one source on the topic and it does list track backs to support the claim: http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:jsDnDzrC9RoJ:www.antiwar.com/orig/elmer.php%3Farticleid%3D2959

Jeff your supporting link goes to a post by blogger Bill Roggio. Sorry, but a blog post isn’t what I or most would call a credible source. Did you post the wrong link or something?

Israel has bombed private homes, apartment buildings, schools, medical centers, ambulances, UN facilities, police stations, power stations, etc., etc. and withheld food and medical supplies as a form of collective punishment. Seems to me they haven’t a clue what’s off limits according to international law or for humanitarian reasons. Those are the actions of terrorists, and are as despicable as Hasmas’s firing of rockets, don’t you think?

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-07-2009 07:17 PM).]

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36 posted 01-07-2009 07:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If you pull a weapon on a cop, don't be shocked when they pull out a GUN and shoot you in self-defense.


Can I be a little shocked if he also shoots the 25 school kids stood next to Jennifer?

It may seem illogical but I just can’t imagine walking around the day after that happened and declaring that it wasn’t the cops fault - that Jen was totally to blame for pulling a knife in the middle of a group of school kids.

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37 posted 01-07-2009 07:28 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

It's ok, Grinch, I always get blamed for everything.

The population per square mile in Gaza is something like 10,000+. Kind of hard not to be shoulder to shoulder with someone when you're packed that close together.

Anyway, I really don't believe it's about the rockets at all. Hamas did stop firing for several months and Israel broke that fragile truce with an incursion and never kept their part of the truce re opening the borders. They placed a stranglehold on Gaza causing untold misery and it resulted in exactly what I believe they were hoping for all along - an excuse to invade and terrorize the people of Gaza hoping they'd give up support of Hamas.  And, of course, that falls right in line with the Bush administration goals.

For decades, the US, in it’s attempt to install puppet regimes in the ME, has indeed had a part in putting terrorists into power,  Bin Laden, Saddam, etc. Here's an interesting article I just came across, only skimmed it quickly once but it does give a lot of information on how Hamas came into power: http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/]htt p://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/]http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/  


[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (01-07-2009 08:18 PM).]

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38 posted 01-07-2009 08:26 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


How are all these words
relevant to the world of constant
threat of death in Israel
that Kaci witnessed with
her own eyes?

.
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39 posted 01-07-2009 08:37 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

They're relevant because they show Israel has pretty much made its own bed.

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40 posted 01-07-2009 08:46 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Can I be a little shocked if he also shoots the 25 school kids stood next to Jennifer?

While I hate to pick on Jennifer with this outrageous analogy, it would be much closer to reality if we had Jennifer shooting the police officer's kids . . . while hiding behind 25 of her own family members. No, I don't think the cop should fire indiscriminately. But in his place, I honestly don't think I would just stand there and hope Jen runs out of bullets, either.

quote:
Hamas did stop firing for several months and Israel broke that fragile truce with an incursion and never kept their part of the truce re opening the borders. They placed a stranglehold on Gaza causing untold misery and it resulted in exactly what I believe they were hoping for all along - an excuse to invade and terrorize the people of Gaza hoping they'd give up support of Hamas.

Let's say, for a moment, that's accurate, Jennifer. Are you suggesting that someone is justified in bombing civilians because they were provoked into doing it? Isn't that exactly what you've been arguing against?

quote:
Those are the actions of terrorists, and are as despicable as Hasmas’s firing of rockets, don’t you think?

So, why, Jennifer are you only coming down so hard on one side when you recognize that both are doing some very, very bad things? Why should we stop one side and not both?


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41 posted 01-07-2009 09:00 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

1. No, I'm not saying it's justified, just that it was to be expected. That goes to the definition of provocation.  

2. Because I believe no one else on this site would take the position I have and because arguments expressing both sides of a issue should be presented. What happens in the ME does affect us. We should be informed and prepared to voice our opinion based on facts, not hysterical, emotional knee jerk reactions. Of course both sides should stop, please don't imply I feel differently when I don't.

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42 posted 01-07-2009 09:03 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Jeff your supporting link goes to a post by blogger Bill Roggio. Sorry, but a blog post isn’t what I or most would call a credible source. Did you post the wrong link or something?

The blog post was reporting an Associated Press news item, Jennifer. Do a Google search for Associated Press confirm UN school and you'll find tons of corroboration. Or just follow the link in the blog to what I assume is an AP link (it's overloaded with traffic right now, it seems).

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43 posted 01-07-2009 09:07 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I did do a search and found nothing from AP with that headline, just more blog posts. I'd appreciate having a direct link if you know of one. The link in the blog goes to JP, and a statement made by an Israeli official.

As a matter of fact, just got a blurb stating that Israel has withdrawn its claim that militants fired from the school. When, and if, I get something from a credible source, I'll post the link.


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44 posted 01-07-2009 09:32 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I'd like to point out some things here:
Ron, you are exactly right:  The standard Liberal argument goes something like this:
Palestine may be full of terrorists, but Israel MADE them that way.
Israel is as much of a terrorist as HAMAS.
Palestine, in order to defend ITSELF, must fire rockets into populated Israel areas.
They are justified in using 'uneven' force because they are smaller and the 'aggrieved.'

Here's the thing:  if you believe all the above, you will NEVER believe in both sides being responsible for this endless conflict.

Two other things, while I'm at it:
Israel is facing a national election.  Currently at the heart of the matter is the giving away of the Gaza Strip as appeasement.  The Liberals in Israel pushed for this very strongly.  Now, in order to be re-elected, they are going to have to save face, and have escalated this tit-for-tat with rat-a-tat-tat.   Because, in the eyes of Israeli citizens, the give-a-way was a complete failure for peace, Conservatives and Hawks have the inside edge on winning.  If you look back at Israeli election history, in almost every case, there was a war escalation prior to the election.  Their soverignity is a major big deal to them, and they often demonstrate 'flexing muscles' as a way of not appearing weak to the citizenry.

Israel's second Incursion Into Lebanon was also an eye-opener for them.  While justified in quashing Lebananese guerillas, they overextended and pushed too far into the city.  They had major problems with the insertion, and backed out quickly when public opinion back home got too hot.   The Israeli military learned that an incursion into the Gaza Strip could be fraught with similar situations that the US faced when taking a city, 24 hours passes, terrorists move back in, US retakes, terrorists move out, etc.    There virtually is NO WAY to secure an area unless you are willing to permanently occupy it.  So......what's a poor boy to do?  It's Lose/Lose.

  This is the hazard of 'Urban Warfare.'  Huge body counts, lots of innocents slain.  Arguably, the Israel military is the best in the world in fighting city guerillas/terrorists.  They are struggling to not appear the bully here, and perhaps are losing that argument.  My point is that every country has agreed after WWII not to use cities as shields, but terrorists do it time after time.  The media sees the Palestinians as the 'aggrieved' and will seldom, if ever ,report on the terrorist activities against Israel.   Hamas is breaking every Convention of War there is (except for chemical & nuclear warfare) and there is no denying that the International community doesn't say much simply because they don't want to be dragged into the Middle East mess.  (exceptions to this are China, Central America and other Muslim countries, which will openly codemn Israel for using too much toilet paper and causing a shortage in Palestine.)
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45 posted 01-07-2009 09:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron


AP Story (from Google cache, so it won't be there forever)
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:7JJd5CtPUcYJ:hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS%3FSITE%3DAP%26SECTION%3DHOME%26TEMPLATE%3DDEFAULT%26CTIME%3D2009-01-06-19-17 -06+Associated+Press+%22two+residents%22+UN+school+site:hosted.ap.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

The link is loooooong, and will probably break in our software. Copy & paste should work to put it back together.

quote:
1. No, I'm not saying it's justified, just that it was to be expected.  

Exactly, Jennifer. I think that's what most of us have been saying all along. What is happening in the Middle East can't be justified, but it's pretty much what was to be expected.

Each side is (and has been for a very long time) provoking the other. They don't much like each other, and like the two women in 1 Kings, they both want the same thing. Even Solomon, I fear, would be hard pressed to resolve their issues without bloodshed. We're seeing the result of decades of hate and frustration, and I honestly don't see how trying to demonize one side over the other is going to help lessen that hatred.


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46 posted 01-07-2009 09:45 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

From JP re the school massacre http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167303802&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti  cle%2FShowFull  http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167303802&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti  cle%2FShowFull

I quite agree with your last statement, so perhaps those on this site who demonize Muslims, Palestinians, Iraqis, Obama and my special friend, Jimmy Carter, etc., should give it a rest. Speaking of which, I haven't slept in nearly a day. Time for a nod off. Nice chatting with you, Ron.
Oops, nearly forgot, thanks for the link, I'll check it out.


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47 posted 01-07-2009 09:58 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

A pretty good example of spinning fact into inflammatory headline. AP is reporting what two anonymous sources said, not what AP believes or observed.

Here are the facts as reported in the AP article:
“Two residents of the area who spoke with The Associated Press by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.”

And here is the inflammatory, misleading headline posted in the Standard:
AP: Hamas was Firing from UN School Hit by the IDF
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48 posted 01-07-2009 10:11 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

'Fear of reprisal' is one of the CHIEF reasons Vietnam became such a fiasco.  They couldn't get any current actionable intelligence out of the villagers because the VC would come in and gut them later if they did.  Same thing in Korea, same thing in Iraq, and same thing in Palestine.  

You are also starting to see, perhaps, WHY any Urban War news is always incomplete.  Chances are slim that ANY AP/UPI/Reuters newsmen are EXACTLY in that part of the city when conflict breaks out.  Easy to watch a battle from a hill, but impossible to cover as news when inside the city.  Plus: Israel is banning coverage for the excellent reason that current reporting will show the enemy where Israel exactly is in the city, and setup ambushes.  Live War news is an extremely dangerous thing (remember the Geraldo Iraqi troop position debacle?)

The TV footage you see, now, is Arab film footage, designed specifically to show Israel in a bad light, only show Muslim casualties, never show the terrorists firing upon Israel, etc.   They did not agree to the Israel TV ban, so they are using the TV coverage to their political and military advantage.  
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49 posted 01-07-2009 10:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Didn't Jimmy Carter go over there a few months ago to straighten things out? Guess maybe that didn't work out so well....
 
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