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Apollo 8

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Balladeer
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0 posted 12-21-2008 07:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Today is the anniversary of Apollo 8. For those of you who don't remember it (or were not yet born)...

Apollo 8 was the first manned voyage to achieve a velocity sufficient to allow escape from the gravitational field of planet Earth; the first to enter the gravitational field of another celestial body; the first to escape from the gravitational field of another celestial body; and, the first manned voyage to return to planet Earth from another celestial body.

One part that I find interesting - and my reason for posting this thread is this:

During the ten times that they orbited the moon, they read the first ten verses of Genesis, which was broadcast to Earth. They also wished everyone a Merry Christmas.

Would that happen today? If the space program were to complete some monumental achievement, would they be allowed to make religious references, read from the Bible, wish Merry Christmas to those listening on Earth...or would there be groups issuing complaints about separation of church and state, using the word Christmas from a government-funded agency, or non-Christians or Jews complaining about reading from the Bible? Should they have done it in 1968? Why didn't they? Why would they do it now? What does that say about the progression of our society? Would they astronauts be directed to say "Happy holidays to all", instead of Merry Christmas, so as to be politically corrrect? Are we more enlightened now or touchier?
Is this good?
Grinch
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1 posted 12-21-2008 08:06 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Personally I couldn’t care less what they recite but I understand the move towards trying not to alienate large proportions of the population by elevating one religion above others. Maybe they could go for ten recitations from ten holy books if there’s ever a next time, maybe throwing in a few more “happy *insert religious festival here*“ greetings after each revolution.

Or they could simply stick to scientific data - though that might be seen as pandering to those darn atheistic types.

I think it’s a bit of a moot point though. The reality is that they won’t be reading anything in future Mike, other than redundancy notices once Obama eviscerates NASA’s budget.


Huan Yi
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2 posted 12-24-2008 08:11 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"but I understand the move towards trying not to alienate large proportions of the population by elevating one religion above others"


Which ironically is particularly Christian . . .


PS  Son of God or one of history’s most
extraordinary and influential men
for good, Happy Birthday Christ.


Grinch
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3 posted 12-24-2008 08:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Which ironically is particularly Christian . . .


And apparently very good at alienating people.

Happy Chanukah

Balladeer
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4 posted 12-25-2008 12:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I believe John's reference meant that trying not to alienate people is a Christian trait. therefore your rebuttal makes little sense, grinch....sorry to interfere with an attempt at controversy.

Merry Christmas to all...and may we go through one night without sarcasm or argument. It will pass quickly enough
Grinch
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5 posted 12-25-2008 04:02 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


humbug!!

I can be wrong once can't I, after all it is Christmas

Have a nice one John and you too Mike.

Essorant
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6 posted 12-27-2008 12:06 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Why Genesis?
Balladeer
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7 posted 12-27-2008 12:12 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Perhaps it had something to do with in the beginning God created heaven and earth? Just a guess....
rwood
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8 posted 12-31-2008 07:44 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Happy New Year PiPsters!

I think "space" travel requires an open mind into the infinite expanse of matter.  

I mean they were traveling in a space craft named after:

"1. the ancient Greek and Roman god of light, healing, music, poetry, prophecy, and manly beauty; the son of Leto and brother of Artemis.
2. a very handsome young man." (dictionary.com)

and no one was sure they'd make it home.

So it makes sense to me that they would practice whatever faith they had for personal reasons whether anyone on earth objected or not. Not much different really than that of a seaman in treacherous seas and storms. A person will do what they feel moved to do in that moment, but Genesis was a poetic choosing, even if staged, being they were the first to see our celestial planet from a distance.

My guess is the current space programs encourage crew members to be embracing of their personal/religious beliefs, if any, because each mission is still filled with perilous risk. So it seems highly unfair for outsiders to man any kind of judgment upon those that risk their lives for discovery. But again, there are those that thought landing a man on the moon would cause the end of the world.

How many times have we failed to cause/witness the doom of the world now? I think the new doom date is 2012, isn't it?

anywho, I wouldn't have been brave enough to sit in that pod and greatly admire the men that did.

cheers to you Mike.
  


Balladeer
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9 posted 12-31-2008 10:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Regina!  You are not taking into consideration the implications of the government using this opportunity to put Christianity on such a grand center stage, the callousness for the feelings of practitioners of other religions...or none. You're not taking into account the young minds being thrown into confusion, the defensiveness, or even anger, of middle and far eastern countries, the slap in the face to the muslims everywhere, or Taoists, or Buddhists, etc, etc, etc. The political incorrectness of  the situation escapes you.

You have simply keyed in on the bravery of a few of our greatest heros, making sincere statements of the faith they believe in while looking down at a sight few had ever seen.

Thank God!

Happy New Year, Regina
Essorant
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10 posted 12-31-2008 12:17 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
Genesis was a poetic choosing, even if staged, being they were the first to see our celestial planet ...


Maybe, but mind you the "earth" in Genesis is a translation of the Hebrew erets "land", referring to the solid and flat-like land under our feet as distinct from water, fire, and air.  It doesn't mean "earth" in the sense of a celestial "planet" or "globe" named Earth.

Balladeer
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11 posted 12-31-2008 01:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My guess would be that the astronauts didn't sit down to decipher the word erets and try to decide whether it meant dirt or a planet. My guess would be that the phrase "God created heaven and earth" was taken to mean what they were looking at....just a guess.

I don't consider myself overly religious as far as organized religions go but I think it would be hard to be there, looking around at the galaxy and looking down at the beauty of the earth and not believe that it was part of some grand design.
Stephanos
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12 posted 01-01-2009 07:47 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

That may be true Essorant, but the Genesis account includes the creation of the "Heavens", and overall definitely describes an ex nihilo creation of everything there is.  Are you suggesting that it only says that God created dirt?  

Sorry, I just wanted to point out the their usage of Genesis was cosmologically correct, even if politically incorrect by today's standards ... just a trifle.


Stephen
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13 posted 01-01-2009 10:52 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

No, I am just saying I don't think the two correspond very well.   For Earth, as the planet itself, was far from the beginning of the whole Universe.  But the "heavens and earth" of the bible is meant to be just as you say "everything there is" and the beginning of all, the heavens being the "skies" and the earth being the "land" of the universe, not one particular planet as distinct from others or from the rest of the universe.  
threadbear
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14 posted 01-04-2009 07:42 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Hi, Mike, and sorry I haven't been more active.  Holiday season for my retail biz & all ya know....

  Let me try to simplify the answer:

80% of all Americans believe in the presence of 'God'.

As far as I know, ALL religions believe in 'God.  How is that a violation of church and state, if you define the 'violation' as preferring ONE religion over another?

Jeff
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15 posted 01-04-2009 08:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Beats me, Jeff. I'm with you!
threadbear
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16 posted 01-04-2009 09:04 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

It is important to stay honest with one's own internal value system.  If that means wishing someone a happy holiday that happens to be your belief, then people on the receiving end of the wish should recognize it for what it is, and not try to project their own bias into some offshoot of being offended.  

The 'offense' is not tolerating the sender's wishes, if the wishes are given with good intent.
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17 posted 01-04-2009 09:19 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Don't know if you noticed, but the US Government has designated December 25th as a Federal Holiday named 'Christmas Day' holiday.  States or fed or private businesses are NOT obligated to observe this holiday in any way.  The fact that 95% of all business VOLUNTARILY close on Dec. 25th should speak volumes for the necessity of the Holiday.  It is a re-affirmation of hope for many, for the upcoming year.  

Oh, I am wrong, on previous post:  it is NOT 80% who believe in God.
It is 92%.  I stand corrected.  5% do not believe in God, 3% undecided.  

How in the flying heck this measly 5% got sooooo much power in dictating the hows/why of displays of religion, is beyond my powers of understanding.
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18 posted 01-04-2009 10:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If that means wishing someone a happy holiday that happens to be your belief, then people on the receiving end of the wish should recognize it for what it is, and not try to project their own bias into some offshoot of being offended.  

The 'offense' is not tolerating the sender's wishes, if the wishes are given with good intent.


Obviously you have not spent much time in the alley, Jeff. Let me tell you how this will go. You will make the perfectly good statement above and someone will come back that the right of one is just as important as the right of the other 99 and, if you don't believe so, you are a selfish, miserable human being. You will hear that people should not have to recognize it, or even be forced to ignore it when, in fact, they should not be subjected to it at all. Should you bring up the point that the vast majority should carry some weight, you will be reminded that majority has nothing to do with rights. Before long it will go out to so many tangents no one will remember what the topic even was. That's the way things work here.

Welcome to the Alley..
threadbear
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19 posted 01-04-2009 10:48 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I hear ya loud and clear, Mike.  I'm no stranger to the arguments of 'being fair' to others.  After all, I had a radio talk show for a few years.  Opinions are as old as man, the only thing that changes is the updating of them.

Having heard the 'pre-arguments' you have listed in previous post, my reply is a simple one:

As a Libertarian who believes strongly in individual rights,  I am also a believer in the 'will of the people' to prevail.  We have far too much 'the will of the ONE' that serves as public record all too frequently.  Call me selfish, then, I don't care.  I believe that when the ONE needs backing, that true-good-hearted people will see it for what it is: important, and will make the correct decision that helps the minority in that situation.  (Let it be said, that Congress does NOT constitute 'true-good-hearted people', imho.)
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20 posted 01-04-2009 11:36 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sigh

I'm just finding it very hard to get worked up over this year after year.

So don't mind me--it's not exactly my favorite holiday, or even a Holy Day to me.

I send regards and respect to those who do, but Christmas and Wishmas has been confused for a very long time...
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21 posted 01-05-2009 12:21 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Serenity, perhaps it is not your dilemma at all, and you only make it so.   If you are not moved by the spirit of the Lord in this holiday, it may not be your fight at all.  What I mean is that people fight fights outside of their own arena, frequently.  This 'debate' if you want to call it that, is the right of tradition to exist.  Go anywhere in Europe: I implore you:  and tell them that their traditions are not politically correct, then listen to their reactions.

  Why are we, as a nation, so quick to dispell our own traditions?: as soon as a tradition is established, there are special interest groups that think their will should be imposed upon tradition as well as the will of the people.    I find it appalling that the United States should somehow be ASHAMED of Christmas because it is a religious holiday.    It exists for one reason:  because the government realized that almost all of its people celebrated the birth of Christ and wished to give those people the day off in which to celebrate it without being penalized.  How can one look at all the sentimental postings here at PIP and not see how important this simple day is to whole families?  Traditions are critical because they are the bones of history upon which a nation is hung.

There are whole groups who do nothing but tear down established traditions for no other reason than just to do it in the name of progressive change.  One cannot simply exist without the other.  Religious holidays are ALWAYS exclusionary to other groups, yet EVERY NATION in the world has at least one of them on their calendar.  

  It agonizes me everytime I say Merry Christmas to someone, and they fumble for the PC response, especially if I tell some friend that happens to work behind some business counter.  I wish I could count all the times they said: our management forbids us from saying anything other than 'Happy Holidays.'   And I instantly say: '...or what? you'll get fired? for casually expressing your religious beliefs at work?"  Their look of confusion, usually melts, as they stage-whisper back to me: Merry Christmas, as if in affirmation that what I am saying reaffirms their strongest convictions.    Christmas is the finest of all holidays: people give generously, they seek out family, most say that they feel the Lord's Presence more strongly at Christmas.  To somehow say the mere utterance of the words Merry Christmas is a bad thing, is the height of not understanding that Easter and Christmas are critical parts of a Christian's yearly life, like it or not.  It simply is what it is.  To make a Christian feel guilty for saying Merry Christmas is a cruel cruel thing to inflict upon the 'spirit' of Americans.  They feel it.  I see it in their faces when they are not allowed to say it.  

   I look at this argument in the same vein as someone who is offended by the words:  Have a Nice Day!   (they claim that the speaker is TELLING them what KIND of day to have.)  I think those kinds of people have sauer kraut in their ears that makes everything sound jaded somehow.  That person just wished that another person have a nice day, and somehow that is bad thing.  ~shrug~  
serenity blaze
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22 posted 01-05-2009 12:38 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

" Why are we, as a nation, so quick to dispell our own traditions"

Don't include me in your we.



Our tradition is that our country formed a union that welcomed peoples of diverse beliefs.

I see here, that what started as a freedom, became a mandate.

I'm not telling you not to put up lights and a Jesus menagerie--but if we're going to talk straight turkey about our traditions, then let us not forget this country was formed with the idea of seperation of church and state.

I find that particularly wise.

I'd apologize for my belief, but I don't think that I will. I'd explain further, but last time I checked, OUR constitution promised that I would never have to do that either.

I caught enough grief, tyvm.

And smiling--someplace...way back in the archives of Philosophy, I really didn't understand how I offended some folks when I equated morality with a theological practice.

I'm happy to report that Karma has bit Karen in the ass.

Personally? I'll wish you a merry Monday if that's your day and I'm serious about that.

But you see what starts happening here? Read above. Businesses that stay open on Dec. 25 are considered lesser than, somehow.

I'd like to take a moment to thank the guys and gals who worked on that day so I could buy tin foil.

You can NOT legislate a belief system.
threadbear
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23 posted 01-05-2009 01:30 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

yikes

methinks there are stories behind stories behind stories here at the Alley.

I'm in a 'good will' mood! hehehe

For me, the invocation:  Merry Christmas
means something much deeper than 'Have a nice holiday.'
It means:
I understand that Christmas is a time for all our families, and I wish your visits with them goes well.
I understand that Christ is important to your daily life, and hope you let the Lord's birthday brighten your spirits also.
Merry Christmas means:  you mean something dear to me, and I am sharing my happiness with you.
Merry Christmas means:  let us share the brotherhood of man especially during this time of season.
Merry Christmas means to set aside feelings of business first, people second.
Merry Christmas means that a person's soul is aflame with good wishes for others.


If that gets in the way of someone's interpretation of government, then so be it.  The spirit of the message of 'Merry Christmas' should be preserved at all costs.  It's our nation's greatest tradition.
Jeff
serenity blaze
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24 posted 01-05-2009 01:40 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

That is for you, Jeff.

And I swear to you, I'd help you feast. I'd gather my corn and make an altar of plenty...I'd do nearly anything to give you a show of good will.

Now why can't I have the same?

I had to give my kids a pretty decent Christian education in order for them to question that.

(And btw? I'm not an atheist--more likely described as "deist")

I suspect my son became an atheist when he couldn't pray our family back to life.

Seperation of Church and State.

I think it's wise.

Here ya go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzx2LGbMxiY
 
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