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Auto Bailout

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Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 12-17-2008 08:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


No . . .


.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


1 posted 12-18-2008 02:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Oh
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


2 posted 12-18-2008 09:18 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I don't think society should bailout any company. Mistakes have to have consequences.

However. I also feel people who believe as I do have to be consistent in the application of those beliefs. It's a little hard to denounce bailing out companies when society insists on bailing out employees. In what way is a company bailout different from paying someone unemployment benefits? Not saving enough money to live on in a crunch is exactly what we are condemning the companies for doing, isn't it?

Mistakes have to have consequences. And it can't just be everyone else's mistakes.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


3 posted 12-20-2008 06:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"Mistakes have to have consequences."


Not so much mistakes as willful
and profitable  neglect.

Why should the money, in tax dollars,
go from someone making less with less benefits
to subsidize comfortable failure?


.
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


4 posted 12-20-2008 08:00 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
However. I also feel people who believe as I do have to be consistent in the application of those beliefs. It's a little hard to denounce bailing out companies when society insists on bailing out employees. In what way is a company bailout different from paying someone unemployment benefits? Not saving enough money to live on in a crunch is exactly what we are condemning the companies for doing, isn't it?

Ron, you are correct, in a sense. But sometimes it is not that simple.

Greedy corporate people have many game plans to go by. They also have legal resources to help them hide money as well as to concentrate on how to skid by the rules; but those who work for them are not always as fortunate. While we can say, "think well" when planning families and such, we cannot dictate that any family will not come up into any certain and particular instances like children with problems; suddenly the family is in a situation where a "healthy heartbeat" does not necessarily mean a healthy child.

While I understand your premise of saving money for a rainy day theory to be correct, there are a lot of things that can go wrong. One day you're working for a company that takes care of your insurance; the next day your wife says she's three months pregnant; you feel safe...you've got three months worth of savings to live on, you plan to build it up, in case things go wrong.

The next day, your company says the corporate heads have to do an RIF....and no, there will be little to no keeping one's job, nor benefits. It's out there, Ron. It's out there, and it's in to play.

But bail out the auto industry? Nope. Ain't going to go there, because they've known all along they were skimming off the cream, and some of their workers were idiotic in listening to their union idealists. So I'm not going to say that they weren't warned, not just recently, but a long time ago, when you and I saw the first of the gas wars going on. That's when they should have found other work, rather than working for and with a union.

Their time has come and gone.

I don't know that it will return. But I doubt it.

However, Ron, while I don't believe in government bailouts, I will continue to hope that the state of our union doesn't hit rock bottom level before it learns that no one is worthy of so many dollars that they cannot afford to live like "others".

Think about it.

My trip to Hawaii made me a believer in living in a part of our country where paparazzi are not allowed.




serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


5 posted 12-20-2008 08:00 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

For a second I saw a dash--

"auto-bailout".

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


6 posted 12-20-2008 08:48 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Ron, as a former employer, you should remember that unemployment is a different animal. You paid an insurance premium for every employee you had for the event when you might terminate that employee's job. That's where the money for the unemployment payments comes from. If the auto industry had simply bought proper insurance against poor management tactics, and I include capitulating to unrealistic union demands, then they would have insurance to get them through these tough times.

Well, I guess that idealistic scheme does depend on the unrealistic premise that some insurance was dumb enough to underwrite them. Of course, that could have been AIG and then the taxpayers would still be the big losers.

Anyway, you're right there should be consequences. I do believe that any bailout money is surely wasted. Auto management will continue their ways and the end result will be a bailout of the UAW, not the industry. The eventual bottom line will still be the same bankruptcy ut after wasting another $50B, this time of the taxpayer's money. Makes no sense to me.

Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 12-20-2008 09:27 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Not so much mistakes as willful and profitable  neglect.

I wouldn't characterize it that way, but it wouldn't matter; willful neglect (profitable or otherwise) is still a mistake. Then again, so is trying to play armchair quarterback, I suspect.

quote:
Why should the money, in tax dollars, go from someone making less with less benefits to subsidize comfortable failure?

Income should be irrelevant. Unless you want to argue that no one should ever help anyone with more of anything?

Why should our money (in whatever form) go to someone else so they don't have to be responsible for the mistakes they've made? You want to apply that to GM, but consistency requires we apply it to individuals, too. Paying somebody because they lost their job is little different than paying a company because they lost too many sales. While we're at, Social Security probably falls under much the same umbrella.

Once you start voting in bread and circuses, it's remarkably difficult to turn off the spigot.

quote:
Greedy corporate people have many game plans to go by. They also have legal resources to help them hide money as well as to concentrate on how to skid by the rules; but those who work for them are not always as fortunate.

I don't think fortune smiles more on the corporation than on the individual, Karilea. Nor do I think people are any less greedy or any less likely to skid by the rules than companies are. Human nature is pretty darn universal, I think.

quote:
While I understand your premise of saving money for a rainy day theory to be correct, there are a lot of things that can go wrong.

You bet there are, Kari. Ask GM.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 12-20-2008 09:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron, as a former employer, you should remember that unemployment is a different animal. You paid an insurance premium for every employee you had for the event when you might terminate that employee's job.

It's only a different animal, Pete, insofar as it's a hidden tax instead of a direct tax.

Any time an expense is legislated into existence and business is subsequently forced to pass on that expense as higher prices, it becomes a hidden tax. That's true of unemployment insurance, and to a large extent (fifty percent to be precise) it's true of social security.

And you probably don't want to get me started on insurance. It is the greatest evil ever to be foisted upon society.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


9 posted 12-21-2008 02:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise


I like Pat Boone's plan better than the current plans in Washington!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84056
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


10 posted 12-21-2008 04:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Right, Denise. The answer to bread and circuses is BIGGER bread and circuses?

Let's just let the consumers buy all the businesses currently going broke. You know, for no money down?

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


11 posted 12-21-2008 04:40 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Sure, why not?! It makes more sense than anything coming out of Washington! If they insist on printing and spending money, send it to us!!!!

 
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