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Iraq....so what's happening?

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Bob K
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25 posted 11-25-2008 04:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



    Are you folks actually upset that the very extreme muslims don't like Obama?  Or at least appear not to?  At what point were you expecting that they would?  Did you actually believe your own propaganda that Obama was a secret Muslim double agent or something?  Obama, hopefully, will be an American President, with all the rights and privileges he's entitled to from Islamic extremists.

     You think he should be running and winning a popularity contests with them or something?  Of course they dislike him.  Unlike you, they actually think he's got America's best interests at heart, and that makes them a bit angry to start off with and, well, sort of ready to insult the guy.  Gee, you seem to have something in common.
Bob K
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26 posted 11-25-2008 04:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Threadbear,

             Which exactly were those attempts at terrorist attacks.  I remember a lot of hoopla about arrests, and then a lot of quiet dropping of charges and red-faced walking away from the table when charges couldn't be proved or proved to be trumped up.  

     I have certainly been wrong before, but which attempts are these that you're talking about?

Sincerely,  Bob Kaven
moonbeam
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27 posted 11-25-2008 04:54 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
But if the US under Obama is expected to solve some Middle East crisis (such as Palestine vs. Israel or Iran vs. Israel, or Afghanistan war) we will not get cooperation from radical elements of Muslim.  We may even be hated MORE under Obama by the fringe element than under G.Bush.  Hard to believe, but these folks are very predictable in their extreme hatred:  why? because they cut NO slack.  If Obama is an apostate, Muslims will use this as a rallying point that may make the situations worse rather than better.


Ok, let's see if I'm getting this correctly.  You feel that the American people made a mistake in appointing Obama because this will annoy the very radical Muslims and make it harder to negotiate a peace settlement in the Middle East?

Is that what you are saying?
threadbear
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28 posted 11-25-2008 05:16 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Moonbeam,

no, not exactly.  I've already said, in about 3 different ways, what I think the significance of this statement is.

I don't believe the American people made a mistake in electing Obama.  He is who he is, and that's not all bad or good.  I do believe, however, that people are too accepting of the power of Obama to change things.  First off, he won't be able to change the economic woes.  They were and are caused by ALL of us, from each field of money usage, and until we ALL change our buying/spending habits and dependance on 401k's, credit cards, etcs, NO president can change the situation of filling in the hole we have dug for ourselves.  If the habits of the American's don't change, neither will the economic crisis.

  I heard far too many people brag that Obama will have world-support, and that's just not true in the Middle East environment.  I am also speculating that another Jimmy Carter-type attack will test Obama's mettle soon into the administration.  I have frequently wondered if the 9-11 attack's timing had more to do with testing a President's reaction than it did with a retaliation effort.  I think that when terrorists, of any kind, see a weakness, they are drawn to it, like moths, in an effort to exploit it.  Obama has such a weakness (at least in their eyes.)   I don't know whether I am warning people, or just pointing out the foundation in which the future 4 years will be laid.  It isn't enough simply to look at the events as they happen, day to day.  It is totally necessary to look at each related event, and see the whole picture and use them in order to see the foreshadowing.   The United States hasn't used information wisely in the past, and the Left was correct in saying that Bush didn't interpret the data correctly on Iraq, in many aspects.  What do we, as a nation have to do? Study: see the whole picture: learn the enemies motivations; be honest on our own weaknesses and lastly: know they WILL be exploited by terrorists simply because they can't overwhelm us technologically or in sheer numbers...yet.  

  One of the most stupid things the United States has done, and keeps on doing, is:  trying to equate Islamic fanaticism in OUR TERMS or perceptions.  There is nothing equatable in our life.  We Can't and DON'T see their motivations because of this blind-spot.  Until the past 7 years, Americans have essentially disregarded ALL of the aspects of Islamic culture (except for the Palest/Israel conflict, and in many cases didn't look any farther in understanding Middle East people.)  Now, especially, it is critical that we educate ourselves on what the veiled rhetoric means when AlQ leaders spout their hatred.  Americans have remained blissfully ignorant for decades on what is exactly happening in the Middle East, and the isolationist attitude comes with a terrible cost.

  Obama is not the problem, nor is he the solution to our national woes.  We are the problem, we are the solution.  There is little one man can do to change physically to fix the crisises we face.  His greatest tool in his arsenal is not bills he will submit, but rather, his optimism itself that MAY change perceptions and help us make our own smart decisions that across-the-board will have a positive effect in solving dilemmas of our own making.  We blame Congress, we blame Bush, but almost ALL of the problems we face nationally are of our own making.   We need a speaking voice of reason to unite the citizen's actions, not the governments actions, to fix the threadbear holes in our society that we have gradually let get eroded away.
moonbeam
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29 posted 11-25-2008 06:01 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I don't believe the American people made a mistake in electing Obama.  He is who he is, and that's not all bad or good.  I do believe, however, that people are too accepting of the power of Obama to change things.  First off, he won't be able to change the economic woes.  They were and are caused by ALL of us, from each field of money usage, and until we ALL change our buying/spending habits and dependance on 401k's, credit cards, etcs, NO president can change the situation of filling in the hole we have dug for ourselves.  If the habits of the American's don't change, neither will the economic crisis.

>>>Can't argue with any of that I agree with all of it.

I heard far too many people brag that Obama will have world-support, and that's just not true in the Middle East environment.  

>>>This, on the other hand, is a ridiculous statement.  Earlier you implied that a few radicals would hate Obama.  Frankly, I think there would be something wrong if they didn't hate him.  But to suggest that because these same radicals hate him means that he won't have broad "world support" is crazy.  

>>>Once you get away from your apparent fixation that the election of Obama was a bad thing because it infuriates radicals you say some quite sensible things, as you did in the remainder of your reply just now, much of which I agree with.

threadbear
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30 posted 11-25-2008 11:32 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

If I sound jaded against Obama, it is a fear that most Americans and the media were duped into voting for someone with a good speaking voice.   I look at his voting record; his lack of partisan reach in his Senator career; his isolationist religious views; his friendships.  All of these scream:  LOOK AT ME AND EVALUATE, but hardly anyone did.  You probably won't agree, but I think the very thing that we did to get ourselves in this economic mess is the very same philosophy that got Obama elected:  shallowness, willing to be duped (we were sold a bill of goods real estate and 401K's were gold, ie) all the back of 'charisma', and G*d knows that 'charismatic only leaders' have been world problem children.  

  If people are optimisitic, so be it, and more power to them.  Hope is like laughter:  it's good for the soul.  Personally, I will remain cautious until I actually see Obama do something, or until people realize they are max-credited out, and that we should quit trying to make the government solve our own problems of caving into our wants, and not our true needs.
moonbeam
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31 posted 11-26-2008 05:17 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
I don't believe the American people made a mistake in electing Obama.


quote:
most Americans and the media were duped into voting for someone with a good speaking voice

I think you need to be clearer or more honest, it's difficult to have a serious debate when you can't seem to get the basics straight.

quote:
LOOK AT ME AND EVALUATE, but hardly anyone did.  You probably won't agree, but I think the very thing that we did to get ourselves in this economic mess is the very same philosophy that got Obama elected:  shallowness, willing to be duped (we were sold a bill of goods real estate and 401K's were gold, ie) all the back of 'charisma', and G*d knows that 'charismatic only leaders' have been world problem children.  

Ahh.  I see what you're saying.  You want your politicians to be "evaluated" in the same way as you should (and I agree with you people didn't) evaluate stocks and investments?

I'm not sure this is the best way to elect a leader, I think going with your intuition and heart is important, but perhaps you have a slight point.

And I certainly agree with your last sentence.  The populace of the western world are becoming spoilt brats, pushed in that direction by the media and governments I might add.  The problem is that governments are now too scared of the political fallout to say "no, enough is enough, you can't have any more toys - live within your means".  As I said to someone the other day, if this carries on, within 10 years we'll either be owned by China or back in a pre-industrial society.
Bob K
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32 posted 11-26-2008 07:50 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear folks,

          I see that threadbear and moonbeam have an interesting exchange going.  Consider this parenthetical, then, because I've heard Mike talk a lot about "the surge," and the success of the surge, as though the surge was what was responsible for saving us from a bad scene.  

     I thought that this article might be worth checking out by Bob Woodward in the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090701847.html

     It seems to make more sense of the situation than Mike's explanation, without totally tossing Mike's thinking away.  And of course, even if everything has become wonderful in Iraq, something of which I remain deeply skeptical, we are still stuck with a mess of our creation than needs to be rectified in some sense or another.  It's as Colin Powell said about the place you break it, you fix it.  We seem to have the first part down pretty well, and I think the Marshall plan worked well after WWII for the second part, but we're a bit behind the curve since then.

     Sorry to interrupt.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
 
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