How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Brothers in arms   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Brothers in arms

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


0 posted 11-05-2008 11:35 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


The Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered the deployment of Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, which borders the EU states of Poland and Lithuania, in retaliation to the announced missile defence shield the US plans to build in central Europe.

On the face of it this looks like a clear attempt to take advantage of, and put pressure on, the new President elect.

What do think Obamaís response should be?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


1 posted 11-05-2008 11:58 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I think he should consult with his family regarding funeral arrangements for his grandmother.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


2 posted 11-05-2008 12:19 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Karen,

I think thatís a given, but presumably, in light of his position, heís going be expected to deal with several issues simultaneously.

Let me rephrase the question:

In addition to arranging the funeral of his grandmother, dealing with the re-structuring of the banking system, the collapse of the economy, the housing price crash, the budget deficit, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the regeneration of American manufacturing industry, the expansion of health care, the oil crisis, global warming and the fight against terrorism and all the other issues facing him, what do you think his response to Russia should be?

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


3 posted 11-05-2008 12:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well lovie, he's got to set up an administration, and then there's a little formality of Oath of Office and his inauguration.

I'm guessing he's already given his administration a lot of thought.

The better question--the real question, actually, is what should our acting President, George W. Bush do about that?

(He's been so quiet lately though...maybe we should just leave him out of it.)

And yes, I knew the pounce would commence, but lawsy Grinch...

*chuckle*

I'd shake my head but I was also out maneuvered by White Russians last night.

h-heh?

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


4 posted 11-05-2008 12:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Karen,

So you believe he should let Bush respond?

I think thatís a definite option but I also think it would be a mistake.

In my view Medvedev was speaking directly to Obama, the timing of the announcement isnít coincidental, heís offering the President elect his first chance to make a difference and establish himself as a world leader.

Then again, maybe Iím wrong.

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


5 posted 11-05-2008 12:53 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

You're never wrong.



I had a hard day's night though.

So I'll make good on my promise to not tinker on politics today.

At least until I'm over my own personal Russian invasion. ow

oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


6 posted 11-05-2008 01:40 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Perhaps the Obama administration will or should reconsider the whole notion of tit-for-tat diplomacy, the concept of preemptive defense, the notion that the Cold War is still alive, the notion that any one nation "needs" global supremacy. stuff like that.

Or, he could just invade Russia, preferably in the dead of winter, to see whose male reproductive organs freeze and fall off first.

Putin has his own problems. Obama isn't one of them.  The US and the EU have their own problems, and they are inextricably intertwined, but Putin isn't one of them.

My suggestion would be to leave Putin alone, let him rattle his sabres and murder as many of his own people as he feels a need to, then sink into oblivion, somewhat like Stalin after WWII.  But then, no one has yet asked me to become an advisor to the President.  Or even the person who cleans up after the new puppy he promised his daughter.

My memory is that Putin, former head of the KGB, was not exactly "elected" to run the Russian Federation.  There is a chance that he will be just as summarily "dis-elected," as his predecessors were, retired to a dacha on the outskirts of Novo-Sibersk, or buried with state honors long before Obama's butt is truly comfortable in his new chair.

On the other hand, there will always be an England.

Best, Jimbeaux
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


7 posted 11-05-2008 04:35 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

According to my gorgeous Russian lady friends, Medvedev is no Moscow. Translation: He is not the heart of the people. He is also pushing for a presidential term of six years instead of four, so his precious Putin will be around for 12 more years. Job stability, no doubt.

What should Obama do about the missiles? I wouldn't be able to say. I can only hope the best for all involved, the same as my friends hope...and have hoped and prayed for so long now in much worse conditions than I've ever, ever experienced. So I reckon I can remain positive, too.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


8 posted 11-05-2008 07:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So you believe he should let Bush respond?

I don't really understand that statement any more than I understand your original question. He does not have the position to "let" Bush do anything. Bush is the president. Obama is not. Serenity said it all by reminding you that there is a little matter of inauguration to be handled first. Until he assumes control of the country, he is just a man waiting in the wings. I'm sure Bush will discuss it with him but, as far as Obama himself doing something about it at this time, he is in no position to do so.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


9 posted 11-05-2008 08:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What now
Second thoughts?


.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


10 posted 11-05-2008 08:41 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't really understand that statement any more than I understand your original question.


Sorry if I confused you Mike, maybe I can clarify.

The president of Russia announced in an address to the Russian people that he had ordered the installation of nuclear capable missiles on the border of Poland and Lithuania in retaliation to the planned US missile defence shield which is planned to be installed in Poland in 2010. Mendvedev also said:

ďWe hope that our partners Ė the new US administrationĖ will make a choice in favour of fully-fledged relations with Russia.Ē

It seems clear to me, and apparently most of the worlds media, that this is a gauntlet being thrown squarely at the feet of Obama. Mendvedev already knows what Bushís response is heís asking if Obamaís response is any different.

Hence my question - what do you think Obamaís response will be?
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


11 posted 11-05-2008 08:42 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

May I bring something up here?

When John Kennedy was elected, the Soviets immediately tested his liberal Democratic platform with the Cuban missle crisis.  JFK bungled it badly.  Some may say that the stake of the whole world hinged upon the luck of the 'Irish.'  

Well, exactly what the Right-wing talk-show pundits warned against has ALREADY happened, and Obama isn't even in office yet.  The Soviets are back in power again.  I believe that the best we can ever do, with peace initiatives, is to stall for 20 years.  Then the peace inevitablly breaks down.  

Even Biden himself said Obama will be tested early (and probably often.)  I will tell you this:  the Soviets listened to every anti-war statement Obama made BEFORE he ran for Presidency, and licked their chops eagerly for a chance to show up the United States.  Why?  Because it will instantly elevate themselves from 4th string to 2nd string if the United States backs down.  

  Not suprisingly, I already hear the far left say with a total straight face:  leave them alone, and they'll leave us alone.  (like they were bees or something.)  Well, y'all wanted a JFK clone, and you got one, along with all his far-left baggage.  In the world of military strength tests, nothing is more weak than a far-left leader, no matter what country is from.  And that's a problem for us/US.

6 months ago I predicted this scenario:  that the Soviets were just waiting to test a Democratic liberal leader, and they would do it early in the administration.  Welcome to reality, folks.  These Soviets feared Bush, but they DON'T fear Obama.  He's given them no reason to fear him.  Sometimes, although liberals will never admit it, the politics of fear IS enough to keep from pulling the trigger on an enemy....and that's a good thing.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


12 posted 11-05-2008 08:43 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
What now Second thoughts?


Iíve no idea what that means, can you explain?

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


13 posted 11-05-2008 08:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Do you think Obama will cancel the planned missile defence shield Threadbear?

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


14 posted 11-05-2008 08:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Grinch. Maybe I'm a little thick-headed this evening but I still don't get it.

According to your story, Russia is deploying the missles NOW. The President of Russis knows full well that Obama will not take power until the inauguration. If he knows what Bush's response will be, why would he not wait until Obama assumes command to go ahead with the deployment? It doesn't make sense to do it while Bush is still president and will make the decisions concerning it. Whether or not Obama would approve of any actions by Bush, the actions would still stand as long as Bush is in the Ovel Office. Russia knows that.

Soemthing is not right here.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


15 posted 11-05-2008 09:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike,

Itís fairly simple really, Putin, through the temporary Russian President Mendvedev is trying to get a handle on where Obama stands as far as the missile defence shield goes.

Heís not asking Bush because Bush has already given him his answer -  Bush insists that the planned deployment will go ahead. Putin deferred the announcement until after the US election because until then there was no president elect to ask - McCain and Obama were only candidates and could defer to Bush more easily. Putin couldnít wait until January because the issue is being debated today in the Czech and Polish parliaments and the threat is aimed at them as much as the US.

Of course Obama can wait until January to reply, for all the reasons you, and Karen gave, but I think itís more likely that heíll grasp the opportunity to set his stall out early and gain a quick win.

threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


16 posted 11-05-2008 09:59 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16689558/
Chinese anti-satellite test sparks concern

Obama's response?
Last winter, Obama taped ads outlining his intent to slash defense spending.  He said, ďI will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems.  I will not weaponize space.  I will slow our development of future combat systems. Ö I will not develop new nuclear weapons.Ē

Recently Joe Biden outlined specific programs for the cuts:  ďIíll tell you what we cannot afford Ö a trillion-dollar commitment to ĎStar Wars,íĒ new nuclear weapons, a thousand-ship Navy, the F-22 Raptor,Ē Biden said.

Rep. Barney Frank, Dem. Chair of the Finance Committee, has called for a 25 percent cut in military spending which he said will get the U.S. out of Iraq sooner and will force the Pentagon to reprioritize its weapons requirements.  ďWe donít need all these fancy new weapons,Ē Frank said.

STILL feel as safe with Obama at the future defensive controls with fellow doves cooing at his every word?

I'm still mad at Obama for pushing for cutting funding to the troops and an early withdrawal which would have ENSURED an Iraqi War loss.  Now, (or soon) he will be Commander In Chief of the same army.  I got to thinking today:  if I was in the armed forces, what would I be thinking of Obama as my boss?  Would he back me?  Or would he stick to his rhetoric about wars and defense?  Things that make ya go: hmmmmmmmmm

The old political adage has always been (even among Dem's and Independents themselves): NEVER elect a Democrat during war times.  Gosh, I wonder why....
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


17 posted 11-05-2008 10:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

A quick win?...or a quick loss?

threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


18 posted 11-05-2008 10:15 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Grinch, in answer to your question:  

What Obama should do:
nothing and keep his mouth shut.  The Soviets are looking at everything he says now as indicators/ foreshadowing of many things.  

What Bush Should Do:
The missle shields were defenses against Iran using nukes not only against Israel, but against the Europeans.  The chance to install the defense may not come again once the Dem's are in full power.  His only chess move at this time is to finish his plan to strengthen the defenses of Eastern Europe, who laughably do not have any!  They've gutted their own high tech missile defenses long ago in most of the smaller to medium countries.  The next major conflict won't be on the ground:  it will be in the air, long distance, using drones and Radio Controlled planes, and use ground forces later on to occupy a devasted country.

Europeans are loathe to admit this, but they are as vulnerable as Canada, and just as dependant, upon the United States to provide a catastrophic defense.  The US is one of only a handful of countries that can afford to develop this satellite based defense system.  China, France, Germany, Britain, and the various Soviets are the others.  Iran claims to have this ability, and this is why the Bush plan to install the defense is needed.  There is mega-proof that the Soviets are not only arming Iran, but are also sharing advanced technology.   In a future war, they will be strong allies.  The Soviets believe that if they get Iran on their side, that the rest of the Arab countries who seem to always follow the most powerful Arab country-of-the-moment, will allie themselves against a common United States enemy and Israel.  There are many Soviet hardliners that believe the United States is directly responsible for their financial hardships and they want revenge.  Revenge can take many forms, and the Soviets will take a first 100 Day embarrasement of Obama gladly as the first installment of payback.

I strongly recommend this website to gain some political insight.   http://hallindsey.org/
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


19 posted 11-05-2008 10:58 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Iran claims to have this ability, and this is why the Bush plan to install the defense is needed.  There is mega-proof that the Soviets are not only arming Iran, but are also sharing advanced technology.

LOL. Would that be the same mega-proof, threadbear, that we were given for WMD in Iraq?


Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


20 posted 11-05-2008 11:01 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Threadbear,

Bush canít do a darn thing beyond what heís already done which is commit to deploying missiles 10 months after he steps down as President. Missiles that incidentally havenít yet been built which will be deployed in at country that hasnít yet said itíll allow them.

On top of all that the missiles that do exist donít actually work.

quote:
The missle shields were defenses against Iran using nukes not only against Israel, but against the Europeans


Thatís not correct. The missile defence shield is a cut down version of Reaganís original Star Wars program, itís original intention is to protect America from an ICBM strike by interception over Europe. An additional consequence is that it may serve to intercept missiles aimed at some parts (but not all parts) of Europe if America chooses to use them in such circumstances. Israel would not, and could not be protected by interceptor missiles sited in Poland unless the missile launch site was within Russia.

Russia has stated quite clearly that if the missiles are placed in Poland it will consider all previous non-proliferation treaties to be null and void and instead of reducing itís capability will increase it to maintain a strategically viable deterrent. China has also pledged to do the same which opens the door to an even colder cold war.

Russia has also announced that it will jam both the Czech radar installation and the airspace above the launch sites in Poland to counter any possibility that the missiles can be used offensively against Russia. Rendering an already ineffective system totally useless.

Iíd kill it quicker than you can say White Elephant and spend the money where itíll do more good.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


21 posted 11-05-2008 11:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Is it then your insinuation, Ron, that reasons for the missile defense system in Europe is all made-up and addresses a non-issue?

It's easy to answer a question with a question. That way you don't have to make a statement and can safely play both sides without being wrong.

Do you agree with the statements of Obama/Biden/Frank in response #16?

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (11-05-2008 11:56 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


22 posted 11-05-2008 11:13 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The US is one of only a handful of countries that can afford to develop this satellite based defense system.


I donít know a nice way to say this - you canít afford it, nor can we, our economies are in the pan, the only way you can finance it is if you borrow the money from an oil rich middle-eastern country (Iran?), China or Russia - which is a little ironic donít you think?

threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


23 posted 11-05-2008 11:59 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Oh, Ron....are you doubting that the loooong list of Soviet created weapons used in Iran currently even exists?  There's a couple of websites that I use that has been keeping a running tab of these.  This is the kind of news that doesn't make US news, yet is easily attainable.  Iran's Hezbollah has also been using year 2005+ weapons made in China as well.  How do we know they are 'supplied'?  Because Hezbollah doesn't have the money to purchase them, for one, and they have been caught smuggling them into Iran for another, in cargo ships.  I keep a running cache of news stories such as this for stories that are developing, but not news yet.  Do you really want me to bore you with all the details of arms builds up from the Soviets and China to Arab nations, as well as their own border buildups?   It's all been in the news, but since Americas are xenophobic, allegededly, we only read national news.  These are all page 1 or 2 stories Internationally, but only page 25 stories here.  Americans don't care about missiles in Europe.  But they will....

On a personal note,Ron, I'm not ignorning your excellent post to my thread on Democracy - just mulling over some things.  That was a rough-draft for an article and your post inspired me to look at some other considerations.  

Grinch, the shield itself is an hi-tech early-warning system, and can be deployed almost immediately.  The ACBM part won't be moved into Europe until after Bush leaves, that's correct.  There are already missiles all across Europe installed by the US.  They lack the guidance and interceptance software that an SDI system would provide.  The interfacing of the old system and the new system is truly the issue here.  Will the US get the funding now that Obama will lead?

Grinch, I think you're wrong about the 'only way' we can finance it.  That's too simplistic of an answer: How to finance it?   Taxes are one, defense contracts with bids are another, selling technologies to allies is another way, government bonds are still another way, tax breaks for private business to develop part of the technology; and that's just for starters.

Also, can we really afford for China and Soviets to get a leg up on us on anti-satellite technology?   I guess you can always make the case that we need the money for more air conditioners in classrooms.....


[This message has been edited by threadbear (11-06-2008 12:17 AM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


24 posted 11-06-2008 12:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Is it then your insinuation, Ron, that reasons for the missile defense system in Europe is all made-up ...

Not necessarily made-up, Mike. But certainly, exaggerated.

quote:
... and addresses a non-issue?

Not a non-issue, but certainly a relatively unimportant one.

In the last sixty years, how much have we spent on weapons to blow up the world? We called it deterrence, and some might even argue it worked. At what point can we stop building bombs? Reagan already won the Cold War by essentially driving the Soviet Union into bankruptcy. We would be foolish, I think, to let the same tactic work against us.

There are a lot of threats to this world. This one is way down the list, in my opinion. But then, I have to admit I never was terribly worried about Sadam dropping a bomb on Michigan, either.


 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Brothers in arms   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors