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Not a Neener Neener Neener Post.

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moonbeam
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200 posted 11-29-2008 05:09 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
those strange British guys.

Pots, kettles, black!

But you really meant "cool" like the James Bond you just had to invoke to define "coolness" .  Heh!
Denise
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201 posted 11-29-2008 10:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't have a problem, Brad, with people wanting to change the requirement, and amending the Constitution, if that is what is voted on. My problem is with possible attempted violation of the requirement, while it still is a requirement.

Grinch, none of those people that you listed are charged with ensuring that a candidate is eligible to run, other than the Party leadership and the FEC, to my knowledge.
Grinch
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202 posted 11-30-2008 07:36 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
none of those people that you listed are charged with ensuring that a candidate is eligible to run, other than the Party leadership and the FEC, to my knowledge.


Some of them are Denise, albeit indirectly, theyíre charged with upholding the Constitution and protecting the people but thatís not my point. Your conspiracy theory would require all of the people I mentioned to wilfully ignore the Constitution and allow an ineligible candidate to claim the office of President unchallenged. If your theory is right and the incumbent President and the opposing Republican candidate donít stand up and contest Obamaís citizenship status the only conclusion I can think of is that theyíre explicitly choosing to disregard that part of the constitution.

Thatís if your theory is right of course, if thereís no problem with Obamaís citizenship status none of this is relevant, in that case the people I mentioned arenít disregarding the Constitution, theyíre disregarding a false claim because itís just plain wrong.

Denise
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203 posted 11-30-2008 11:28 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If they have investigated him, and if they do know that there is a problem, and if they have chosen not to pursue it as an issue, then yes, they would be choosing to ignore that requirement. And I guess since John McCain is arguably not natural born, he and the RNC wouldn't have had a leg stand on in challenging the opponent on the same issue, especially since the Congressional resolution of his status doesn't have the force of law.

But it's not "my theory", Grinch. I have stated a few times that I am not making a claim that he is or isn't a natural born citizen. I am saying that I don't know if he is and that there is no way to be sure until he presents his documents to a judge. And I don't know why he would have a problem doing so, that's all.
Grinch
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204 posted 11-30-2008 12:35 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I am saying that I don't know if he is and that there is no way to be sure until he presents his documents to a judge.


Would that be the end of it Denise? Isnít it more likely that some tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist will just suggest the documentation is forged or that the judge is part of the conspiracy?

If presenting his documentation isnít going to end the spurious rumours why should he bother, I wouldnít. Under present law Obama doesnít have any obligation whatsoever to present documentation to anybody other than those responsible for ensuring that heís eligible to stand for office, unless it forms part of a legal claim against him in a court of law. Anyone who needs to see the documentation has already seen the documentation and they are either satisfied of his eligibility or are part of a massive conspiracy to undermine the Constitution. You donít need to see his birth certificate to know that one of those conclusions has to be true, all you need to do is decide which one you believe to be the truth.

If it is a Conspiracy itís a real humdinger, the archive of both the Honolulu Advertiser and the Star Bulletin, both local papers in Honolulu, have an entry announcing his birth in a local hospital. That means you can either add the staff at both papers to your conspirator list or believe the rather inane idea that someone knew Obama was going to make President and placed the ads 40+ years ago to answer any future questions.

Or maybe time travelling aliens did it.

Denise
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205 posted 11-30-2008 01:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'd be satisfied with his presenting his documents to a judge, and I would think that the judge would choose a document expert to give his assessment of it as part of the determination of its authenticity, prior to issuing his opinion, since a judge wouldn't necessarily be an expert in detecting forgery. I think that should end all the controversy.

I think this controversy should make it law that a candidate should present their documents to some independent verifier, like I guess we all just assumed was done by the FEC, and not just a signature on an affidavit attesting that one is qualified as being accepted as sufficient.

From everything I've read there was an announcement of his birth, but there was no hospital listed, as their usually were with birth announcements.

His half-sister, Maya, in different statements, three years apart, gave the names of two different hospitals. So it seems she isn't even sure which hospital he was born in. Maybe someone should point her to the newspaper archives so that she will be able to figure it out. By the way, she was born in Indonesia, and she has a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii, similar to the one purported to be Obama's on his web site.

His paternal grandmother and a half-sister and half-brother said he was born in Mombaso, Kenya, I guess before they realized that would disqualify him if that were the case.

The Kenyan Ambassador gave an affirmative answer when asked if Kenya would put a plaque on the place of his birth in Kenya. (he's stating now, of course, that his response was taken out of context, and that he was actually speaking of Obama, Sr). He said that plans were already underway for that (so I guess now they have to scrap those plans!) Kenya even had a national holiday shortly after the election. Sounds like they are very proud of their "native son"!  

You can hear the radio interview from the Mike in the Morning radio program at the link below. I came upon the program a couple of days before this article reporting the Ambassador's denunciation of the interview.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=82060
Grinch
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206 posted 11-30-2008 02:48 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

I donít think itís likely that Obama is going to present his birth certificate to a judge just because youíd like him to, and why should he?

Everyone who needs to be convinced of his eligibility is convinced of his eligibility or is involved in a 40+ year monumentally complex conspiracy that would confound the cast of mission impossible.

Take a punt at it Denise, come down off the fence, if you were laying money on whether he was a natural born citizen or not which way would you go?

Denise
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207 posted 11-30-2008 03:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't think he will present it either. I think the courts will either throw out all the lawsuits and/or rule in his favor somehow, even if it were determined that he was not a natural born citizen. And I don't think a 40+ year conspiracy is a necessary component. Just those in positions of power who no longer value or agree with the requirments stated in the Constitution is necessary for someone non-qualified to take office.

If I were putting money on it, and it was something that could be verified, I'd go with not a natural born citizen.
Grinch
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208 posted 11-30-2008 04:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I think the courts will either throw out all the lawsuits and/or rule in his favor somehow, even if it were determined that he was not a natural born citizen.


That just adds the whole of your legal system to the list of Americans who show no respect for the Constitution. Do you really have so little faith in the integrity of your countrymen? It seems really odd to me, as a non-American, to realise that I seem to have more confidence in your system of government and legal system than you do. If you believe that the system is so corrupt why do you live there? Iím not being flippant, if I believed my government and legal system was that corrupt Iíd be on the first plane outta here!

Denise
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209 posted 11-30-2008 08:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I lost all confidence in the 'system' when Terri Schaivo was allowed to be starved and dehydrated to death, by court order. That action left a deep scar in my soul.

I don't think there is any country or any form of human government that is perfect or completely free of corruption, so where would I go? I don't think there is anywhere better than where I am.
Bob K
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210 posted 12-01-2008 08:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          They made a call on the constitutionality of the thing Denise.

Yours,  Bob Kaven
Denise
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211 posted 12-02-2008 05:48 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Would you care to elaborate on how they did that Bob?
Bob K
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212 posted 12-02-2008 03:12 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




They upheld the Florida court's repeated decisions that Ms S. had a right to determine her own fate.  They went with the evidence that this decision had already be demonstrated sufficiently in court on several previous occasions.  In the case of the last refusal to take up the case, the argument had been once again the same old stuff on the part of the Ms. S.'s family, and the Husband had argued that the comatose wife's family was trying to try the case in the legislature.  Once again, the U.S, Supreme court upheld The Husband.

     Pretty much that stuff, Denise.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article436044.ece
Denise
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213 posted 12-02-2008 04:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, I followed Ms. Schaivo's case for three years prior to her death. She was not comatose, and there was absolutely no evidence that these were her wishes. And there were affidavits by 20 or so neurologists attesting that she was not comatose, none of which the court would even look at, much less allow into evidence.

The lower court repeatedly refused to allow into evidence anything produced by the parents or her attorneys and rendered decisions based soley on her husband's submissions to the court.

The Federal Court didn't 'side with' the husband. They simply decided that the family had no right to bring the request to them despite the last minute legislation requesting that they look into the allegations of the parents that the lower court was not acting in good faith, making decisions in a biased manner in not allowing all the evidence to be admitted.

The system failed her. It did not protect her Constitutionally guaranteed right to life.

You can investigate her story through her foundation. It used to be called Terrisfight.org I don't know if the name is the same now or not. Maybe then you can get a view from the 'other side', the side that wasn't in the MSM, and then make a decision on the issue when you have all the facts.

But I can't talk about it anymore.
Bob K
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214 posted 12-03-2008 02:43 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Actually, brain dead isn't comatose, so I suppose your correct there.  I was particularly taken about the way that Bill Frist was able to diagnose the woman from looking at a video with poor definition.  He showed all the neurological acumen of a cardiologist in doing so.  neurologists usually have to look at medical records to make such determinations, but not the psychically gifted Senator Frist.

     When these same Justices refuse to take up the case of somebody on death row, you don't seem to have much difficulty with their decisions, and with the bases for them taking up or not taking up the case, while some of these folks don't seem to have the wherewithal to know right from wrong because of cases of fairly serious mental defect ó not "mental illness,"  but serious confusion about  what's real and what isn't real, and not having enough brain power to make basic decisions.  Texas seems to do this fairly regularly, as does Florida (Florida, to be honest, simply gives me that impression.).  

     The Supremes regularly refuse to hear these cases as well.

     To some extent, this is a problem with not having everybody of necessity file a living will to indicate their wishes in these situations, to eliminate the ambiguity.  This would avoid a lot of serious pain on everybody's part, yours and mine included.  Though we might still disagree about somebody having the right to make these decisions instead of leaving them up to ó what?  God might perhaps be the word the two of us might agree on, but which might not pass muster everywhere else.  It might not with me, all the time, and with everybody, truth be told.  But for the purposes of the discussion, it's probably close enough.

     How do you actually make these decisions in a way that's fair, honest and Decent, Denise?  

     Sometimes I'm sure I've got an answer for that question, often it seems to walk out the door invisibly, like Elijah, who's supposed to visit us on occasion.  Should you believe in that.

     What do you think?
Denise
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215 posted 12-03-2008 06:18 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

She wasn't brain dead either, Bob, and you have no idea how incensed I am that you have so flippantly thrown that out there. And the only "life support" she needed was a feeding tube.

The point is, she didn't have an advanced directive, and there was no evidence that she would have agreed to one, and she was not considered to be near death.

And Bill Frist is not the numerous neurologists who submitted affidavits on her behalf...that were ignored by the court, so throwing him into the mix here is just a smokescreen.

And convicted criminals have more rights (habeus corpus) than Terri did, or people who find themselves in her situation, thus the legislation on her behalf in an attempt to have the Federal courts review the lower courts decisions.

I also think it is a smokescreen to lump her in with people who are at the end of their lives, in pain, and hooked up to artificial means of support, such as breathing machines, heart/lung machines, etc., and keeping them hooked up is only prolonging their agony. Even in those situations it should be the decision of the patient whether to continue life sustaining measures. And absent their informed consent either through an advanced directive, or if they are currently conscious and agree to refusing further treatment, and then only next of kin, if the patient is not conscious and able to make an informed decision, if it is confirmed by a doctor and review board that the patient is near death, and treatment is futile and only prolonging the patient's misery.  

Terri was not near death. And what her husband and the courts did to her was not "decent", to say the least.
Bob K
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216 posted 12-03-2008 11:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          I have an advanced directive and have signed a power of attorney for my wife in case I end up in such a situation, Denise.  As does my wife.  I have been asking others in my family to sign them as well, to give guidance in these situations for the very reasons that make you hit the roof.

     I'd go so far as to suggest to you that you file such an advance directive with somebody whom you trust with power of attorney to carry out your wishes in a situation of that sort yourself.  If you believe I'd if silly enough to suggest something this serious to make you feel incensed in a blog, I would suggest, respectfully, that you believe I am somebody who wishes you ill when I enjoy chatting with a kind and occasionally widely differing neighbor upon issues that matter to us both.  I am more interested in the neighbor part of the discussion than anything else.  

     Did these neurologists gain access to the patient to give her a neurological examination, Denise?  Did they somehow gain access to her records without permission of the next of Kin?  Were they objective Neurologists, or were they professional witnesses with specific points of view to sell to the courts, or as witnesses which contributed to their incomes?  Did they have specific religious or ethical points of view that they had a history of defending, regardless of situation or data.

     The mere fact that somebody would have twenty pieces of data saying that they were professional opinions of Neurologists ó as you are well aware, Denise ó is meaningless, and I'm surprised that you would bring it up in a discussion such as this one.  You must have some understanding that I would be aware of how useless the fact of the existence of these documents would be.  They have not been subject to appropriate scrutiny by opposing legal counsel, nor had their worth evaluated.  They are simply there.   Have no wish to upset you further about this difficult case, Denise, and am perfectly happy to discontinue discussions about it because I don't wish to inflict pain.

     But I am not interesting in having my thinking or comments misrepresented by anybody either.

     Bill Frist is not one of the Neurologists whose affidavits were included.  That did not prevent him for acting like one nor from injecting fake medical authority into the quarrel, nor from attempting to make law to affect a single case in a Constitutionally dubious way (outside occasional special bills of appointment and immigration, they're supposed to be illegal, aren't they?).  He did not have information to make a diagnosis from a video, yet this didn't stop him, casting doubt on his medical ethics and his political ethics in a single elegant time-saving gesture of gratuitous political foolishness.  At the same time as bringing his political and medical ethics, for many of us he also brought into question the quality of the other medical testimony in the case.  It seemed questionable beforehand, of course, but Bill Frist helped it acquire that little extra element of doubt that it simply didn't need.  Bringing up Bill Frist, for that reason, is not a smokescreen, or at least not my smokescreen.  The Republican party and the religious right earned him the old fashioned way ó they apparently bought him for political capital, and this was his way of paying back a political debt.  I personally didn't think it was appropriate.
I don't know what you thought.

     I agree that in clear end-of life issues  advance directives are essential.  My point was and is that the only thing predictable about the end of life  is that it will come.  The sooner an end of Life directive is in place, the better.
Terry S. should haver had one.  Not having one may have cost her her life.  Everyone should have one.

     Yes, her heart and lungs were functioning.  Near as I can determine, though, not her higher cortical functions.  To me, this is brain dead.  She was not going to recover.

     If you say to me a miracle might have happened, all I can say to you is that if you believe that, then you believe it still can and nothing has changed.  You are being disingenuous.  Death is horrible and often tragic.  It certainly was in this case, no matter which point of view you take.

Respectfully, Bob Kaven
Denise
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217 posted 12-04-2008 05:33 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Court ordered starvation and dehydration tends to upset me, Bob.

She would most likey not have "recovered" from her brain damage, Bob, due in part to her husband denying her the therapy over the years with the money he received on her behalf from a malpractice lawsuit for that very purpose. It was never alleged by anybody that she would ever fully recover. I don't believe that warrants a death sentence by court order at the direction of the husband and his euthenasia lawyer, paid for with the funds that were awarded for her care and therapy.

The facts are available if anyone cares to investigate them. I can't continue to discuss it though because it is too emotionally draining for me.

I enjoy chatting with you and others too, Bob. But I don't appreciate being told that I am being disingenuous, and assumptions being made as to what I read and don't read, and what issues I "don't seem to have much diffulty with". That tends to annoy me.

Juju
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218 posted 12-04-2008 06:40 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

I guess
When a woman
Can no longer perform
All her 'duties' she is brain dead
Her lips cracked and throat sore
She could not cry
Shes dead...

I hope
She didn't know
her purpose here ended
On the whim of the man
who was tired
of her

There is something wrong with a system that gives the rights of her life to a man who had allegations of abuse against her.

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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219 posted 12-04-2008 10:25 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Court ordered starvation and dehydration tends to upset me, Bob.



Dear Denise,

           Oddly enough, it upsets me as well.  You haven't mentioned that possibility, so forgive me for thinking that it might not have occurred to you.  It actually does.  I am also upset by the effects of the stress on the husband and his attempts to put a life together, afterward.  And by the unhealed and apparently unbridgeable rift between him and her family, who should have been natural allies in this whole hideous mess.  You may not have thought that Ms. S. was about to regain consciousness, but from the statements issued by the family, the brother especially, it seemed clear that they did.  I felt sad that they were to my mind preyed upon by those that encouraged such thinking for political advantage.  I was greatly disturbed by this.  I won't try to over-blow how upset I was by saying I cried about it.  I didn't.  I certainly had long conversations with my parents about the situation.  

          

quote:

I don't believe that warrants a death sentence by court order at the direction of the husband and his euthenasia lawyer, paid for with the funds that were awarded for her care and therapy.



     I have never heard of a "euthenasia lawyer." I believe that the lawyer in question felt he was fighting for both Mr. and Mrs. Schaivo's rights in this case.  I believe that Mr. Schaivo  felt the same way.  I also believe that Ms. S's parents believed sincerely in what they were doing.  I am less certain about all the partisans on either side of the quarrel, many of whom seemed to me to be in the fight for political traction rather than out of elemental sense of justice, or of rightness and wrongness.  

     I seldom agree with you in detail, Denise, but your sincerity is always evident and worth respecting.  

quote:

I enjoy chatting with you and others too, Bob. But I don't appreciate being told that I am being disingenuous, and assumptions being made as to what I read and don't read, and what issues I "don't seem to have much diffulty with". That tends to annoy me.



     Sorry about the annoyance, Denise.

      I have no wish for the discussion to be brought to a halt by trying to go further into specifics.  I would be more sorry about the annoyance, were you actually to make assertions about the truth or non-truth of the statements you say annoy you, though.  Simply being annoying doesn't make me wrong, does it?  Simply annoying.

Sincerely,  Bob Kaven


Bob K
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220 posted 12-04-2008 10:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Juju,

quote:

I guess
When a woman
Can no longer perform
All her 'duties' she is brain dead
Her lips cracked and throat sore
She could not cry
Shes dead...

I hope
She didn't know
her purpose here ended
On the whim of the man
who was tired
of her

There is something wrong with a system that gives the rights of her life to a man who had allegations of abuse against her.



     If this is a poem, I cannot comment on it here as a poem.  

     It it is a political comment on Terri Schaivo, I can and will, purely as a comment on Terri Schaivo.  Brain dead is brain dead, Juju.  Can't perform one's duties has lots of different meanings in different places and at different times.  For example, if you don't have enough teeth left to soften the sealskin boots for the yourself and the other folks in the igloo, that might be a pretty serious situation for yourself and everybody else.  What that means in local legal terms, I'm not sure.  It may be that the woman in such a situation might on her own decide to take a walk on the ice and not come back.  Survival margins are narrow, and the decision is generally made by the person with the good of the family/tribal unit in mind.  Or at least it used to be so.

     If you mean, everybody isn't having a great emotional life together, sometimes that grounds for divorce in some states.  Sometimes not.  It doesn't mean she's brain dead.
Her parents might have thought her brain-dead to marry the guy in the first place, or her friends might have thought so, but that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about here, is it?  In fact, I don't know anyplace where being too depressed to function is grounds for withholding food and water.  Usually, folks in this condition are taken to hospital and given anti-depressant medication or shock treatment.  It's regarded as a readily treatable situation.  It has nothing to do with being brain dead, which actually involves lack of electric activity in important parts of the brain.  

     Sometimes the areas are more limited than others.  Cortical brain death means that the parts of the brain that make you a person are gone.  There's no person available.  The tissue tends to wither away in time.  With a lot of folks, though, there are a lot of reflexes left.  The head will move, the eyes will move too, sometimes.  There may be babinski reflexes left, though if the injury is severe, what seems to be left over is something called a reverse babinski.  When the doctor runs the base of the hammer along the length of the sole of your foot, and your foot curls down?  When there's a lot of profound damage, the foot curls up.  There are all sorts of reflexes that change on neurological examination.  About tears, though, I don't know.

     I don't know how the Schaivos were when she went into the coma.

     I did work at a school for the retarded for a while, and I can tell you that there weren't many visitors, especially for the folks who simply laid in bed all day.  Some folks came out to visit relatives on the yearly special "Visitors Day" set aside as a sort of festivity for those who did come.  Not many even then.

     I tell you, the nurses who took care of those people were very special.

     Do you mean that he had allegations of abuse against her?  Or she had against him?   And what are the details, Juju?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Juju
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221 posted 12-04-2008 11:05 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

So your saying she is brain dead and not brain damaged.  I guess by your logic there are some mentally handicap poeple who should be starved to death too right?

Oh and go look up the cause for her injury

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Bob K
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222 posted 12-05-2008 03:04 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Juju,

          How do you get that, Juju?  She had no higher cortical functions.  

     I worked with folks with IQ's in the high 40's who were certainly frustrating to deal with at times, but many of whom were better people overall that folks with twice their intelligence.  There were also some fairly wretched folks among them as well, but on the whole, as people, I found them nicer and kinder than I was.  I knew people with I.Q.'s a lot lower than that who were fine.  I considered them friends at the time, and if I were to run into any of them today, I'd think of them as friends today.

     Handicapped and comatose are two different things.

     The logic you are working on here is your own.  These are not the connections I have ever made, nor would I make them.   No higher cortical functions, Juju, unlike people with low or even very low IQ.  People without discernible consciousness, Juju, as opposed to people who can engage in some sort of mutual process of conscious communication.  Being hated, for me, is sufficient conscious communication.  I designed and implemented a therapy program for a woman once whose sole communication with the world was attempting to kill people she came into contact with.  I not only had to sell the program to her, I had to sell the program to the other staff people, who wanted nothing to do with her.  

     I used to go in to feed people who would try to hurt me when I got close enough to feed them.  I worked with people who would occasionally get jaws and noses and arms broken trying to feed people who didn't communicate all that well, but were still conscious.  That was fine, Juju.  Most of these people clearly wanted to live.  Some of them wanted to die, but we were able to quarrel about that in a fairly straightforward way, even those who were "handicapped."  Some of them wanted me to help them die, Juju, and I always refused, because I had feelings about that myself.  Simply because they wanted to die, didn't mean that I had to help them.  There was a person there inside in all those cases, though, and that made the difference to me.

     Should you wish to starve any mentally handicapped people to death, I'd be upset with you, and I'd do what I could to stop you.

     If there was a person with no higher cortical activity, though, and they'd been that way for many years, I would agree that the court had the right to make a determination.  If the case was clear that this is what that person would have wanted, I would go along with it, though I would find the process very difficult, and I don't know that I would be able to be a part of the actual team that carried out those orders.  I'd probably be too attached to my fantasies about who that person might be, were they not in a permanent vegetative state.  But I'd also be clear that that's what they were ó fantasies.

     As I recall, the cause for her injury was heart attack as a consequence of obsessive dieting, wasn't it?

     Perhaps you'd like to try to hang that on the husband?

     Perhaps you'd be interested in checking out the co-relation of anorexia and incest, and do some thinking about the various possible reasons why the family was trying so hard to go against what the court evidently believed to be Terri's wishes in this matter.  Might guilt have been part of this?  I certainly don't know, but as a theory it makes as much sense as some of the drivel I've heard spouted about the husband.  Incest is apparently much much more common than folks generally believe.  And it plays a fairly large part in lots of secondary psychopathologies.

Sincerely yours, Bob Kaven
    

          
Juju
Member Elite
since 12-29-2003
Posts 3353
In your dreams


223 posted 12-05-2008 05:27 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

(:

The last time I checked accusing someone of having an incest family to knock their credibility was a fallacy

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thougts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


224 posted 12-05-2008 05:45 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I canít seem to see the husband as a heartless money grabbing fiend as some would depict him, it doesnít compute when you read this:

ďOn March 11, 2005, media tycoon Robert Herring (who believes that stem cell research could have cured Schiavo's condition) offered $1 million to Michael Schiavo if he agreed to cede his guardianship to his wife's parents. The offer was rejected; George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, described it as offensive, adding that Michael had rejected other monetary offers, including one of $10 million.Ē
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo

 
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