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Not a Neener Neener Neener Post.

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Balladeer
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150 posted 11-19-2008 09:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That your government is so inept

You love it, don't you, Grinch? Your eagerness is very obvious. If I were to list all of the insults and name-calling with respect to our government, our country, our philosophies and our lifestyle they would reach half-way to Liverpool. I acknowledge the fact that you must be one of the most knowledgeable humans alive on life in the United States but it's interesting on how it is all negative and also so freely and frequently given, especially the insults.

One would think you have a real problem, not only with Bush, but with the country. I hope that's not the case. If it is, just be honest enough to say so.
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151 posted 11-19-2008 09:32 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

tsk.

Now this is just sad.

c'mon Mike--all that the above post is worth is to serve as an example of "spin".

That's all it takes is one phrase out of context...

I'm totally disheartened by all of this now.

I wonder if Jimbeaux knows he can request to have a thread locked at any time?

On that note, I think I'll go back to reading in bed.

goodnite folks.
Ron
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152 posted 11-19-2008 09:38 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
c'mon Mike--all that the above post is worth is to serve as an example of "spin".

The irony is that Grinch's sarcasm in that post is classic Balladeer fare.

Trying to make something sound silly through hyperbole backfires almost as often as it works. If a pun is the lowest form of comedy, surely sarcasm must qualify as the lowest form of communication?
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153 posted 11-19-2008 09:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I'll take the hit, even if I'm puzzled as to what I said in my own reply was construed as either a pun or sarcasm.


Denise
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154 posted 11-19-2008 09:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No I haven't seen his documents, Jen.  He presented them to the Senate Committee, not to me. And it never got to the point where citizens filed suits to request that he present them to a judge or a designated authority because he did so voluntarily.

McCain's birth status is no longer an issue in any event. He isn't the President-Elect.

I'm not suggesting that Obama is or isn't a natural born citizen or a naturalized citizen. What I did say was that all his records were sealed, his school applications and grades, the particulars of his work with Bill Ayers on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and ACORN, his work as a community organizer and his long form birth certificate. The man is a mystery. America knows more about Sarah Palin than we know about the President-Elect. His secretive nature breeds suspicion, deserved or not.

I don't think it's frivilous, Ron, when doubts arose, probably in part due to his secretive nature, his childhood years spent in Indonesia, his father and step-father being non-U.S. citizens, and reports of comments supposedly made by his Kenyan family. And the solution to remove all doubt is so simple.

Grinch, if what I read is correct, candidates only have to sign an affidavit declaring that they are natural born citizens. If that is correct, I think it is woefully insufficient.
Balladeer
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155 posted 11-19-2008 09:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, I'll be the first to acknowledge that I serve up sarcasm as quickly as anyone else, but I saw none in his post. Nor did I see it in if this is true the terms American Security, and American Intelligence need to be seriously reassessed, how can you trust the idiots responsible for protecting your country if they canít even run a simple background check of two potential Presidents?
It boggles the mind.
Nor have I seen it in many other posts aimed at standard insulting, which are spread out over many threads. They are all there to be seen and are very reoccuring.

Use me as a target and I have no problem with it but the constant shots at my country get a little hard to swallow sometimes, especially from someone who is not even a part of it. Call me touchy and irrational, if you like.
JenniferMaxwell
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156 posted 11-19-2008 10:33 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Suits were filed to try and force McCain to produce proof of citizenship,  Denise. Iím surprised you didnít know that.

Yes, Iím aware McCain was defeated, but as a Presidential candidate, shouldnít he have been held to the same standard as required of Obama? This thing about Obamaís birth certificate was brought up months ago, before he won the election, yet there was little mention of the unanswered questions about McCainís during the campaign. And, since the Senate Resolution didnít carry the weight of law, wasnít it merely a distraction, an attempt to imply the issue had been legally decided when in fact it wasnít? Seems that way to me. If McCain can in effect, ďsealĒ his military records, personnel file, debriefings, etc., why do you have a problem with Obama school records, etc., being sealed? Which of those records that you object to being sealed were sealed by Obama and which were sealed by law or the organizations he worked for? Which of those records could possibly have any bearing on whether or not he meets the Constitutional requirements for holding office?

I donít find Obama a mystery at all. I donít think anyone whoís read his books, his speeches, the info on his campaign site would say that. I think itís a matter of being as informed as you want to be. Reading his books would show that he really doesnít have a "secretive nature". Have you read them, Denise? They're really quite well written and worth the time.

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157 posted 11-19-2008 10:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          Is there anything wrong with the actual reasoning of what Grinch said that bothers you, or is it the fact that it was said by a non-U.S. citizen?  

     My sense is that it's not a governmental responsibility to run that sort of check on candidates anyway.  That having to select from a few pre-selected U.S. Government approved Grade-A prime Candidates feels a bit anti-Democratic to me, and may keep out some of the more raw folks that we really should be allowing in.  The Andrew Jacksons of this world.  Grinch may not have caught that sort of wooly streak in the American Democracy, and he should be forgiven for that and have the distinction explained, to his head-scratch puzzlement.  Were there actually something wildly out-of-line about either candidate, it would have been published and there would have been considerable loud screaming well before this point.  The not-a citizen business comes up every now and again in Presidential politics, once with Herbert Hoover, as I mentioned in a prior post.

     The actual reasoning of what Grinch had to say though, Mike, was pretty much on base, and it was a valid comment in my opinion.  It was, from the outside, a perfectly reasonable observation.  From the inside, there are people who would make the same comment as well, perhaps those who feel we should have a more regulated security-state sort of organization.  I don't happen to agree with them, but there are a lot of them around these days.  I mentioned to you being stopped on the bus between Buffalo and Ithaca, both ways, by Border Patrol agents, demanding papers from everybody aboard.  

     That is what security state thinking gets us, and more.

Balladeer
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158 posted 11-19-2008 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Twenty year association with a hate-mongering minister.
Buying land from a convicted felon at a reduced price
Associating with a man who bombed the Pentagon
Working for an organization which forced banks to give unsecured housing loans


I understand, Jennifer, that these points are all old-hat and really don't matter much now. However, to say Obama doesn't have a "secretive nature", in light of all these topics, is not that realistic. The simple fact is that the press decided not to do any actual investigative reporting into these topics at all. That's the simple truth..
JenniferMaxwell
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159 posted 11-19-2008 11:29 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Actually, there's quite a lot of information available from news sources on those topics. Try a google, then hit "news".
Ron
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160 posted 11-19-2008 11:34 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'll take the hit, even if I'm puzzled as to what I said in my own reply was construed as either a pun or sarcasm.

We weren't talking about your post, Karen. We were talking about Grinch's.

quote:
Ron, I'll be the first to acknowledge that I serve up sarcasm as quickly as anyone else, but I saw none in his post. Nor did I see it in if this is true the terms American Security, and American Intelligence need to be seriously reassessed, how can you trust the idiots responsible for protecting your country if they canít even run a simple background check of two potential Presidents?
It boggles the mind.


I saw it, Mike. Clear as a bell. Or do you really think our government is incapable of running background checks?

See, that's the trouble with sarcasm, though. Grinch's and yours and, yea, mine too most of the time. It usually feels a lot more clever than it really it is and is far too easily misconstrued. It's just so much more fun than saying what we really mean, though, isn't it?

quote:
I don't think it's frivilous, Ron, when doubts arose, probably in part due to his secretive nature, his childhood years spent in Indonesia, his father and step-father being non-U.S. citizens, and reports of comments supposedly made by his Kenyan family. And the solution to remove all doubt is so simple.

Of course it's frivolous, Denise. And it's not the result of secrecy, but of hate and fear.

Remember Florida in 2004? Now that was a real issue, one that potentially reflected the will of the American people. This time around we already know the will of the people. However, this issue, like that one, will be decided in the only place that counts -- the courts. That's the only place anyone is obligated to present their proof. And sadly it still won't "remove all doubt," because hate and fear are never so easily conquered.

quote:
The simple fact is that the press decided not to do any actual investigative reporting into these topics at all. That's the simple truth..

So you did all your own legwork, Mike, and dug everything up without their help? I'm impressed with your investigative reporting abilities!

(See what I mean about sarcasm? It would be much simpler, I suspect, to just point out that your continued harangues about the biased-against-you-and-everything-you-believe press make very little sense. If the press uniformly conspired to keep you in the dark, Mike, you'd never know it. I think your real complaint is that most of the press -- like most of America -- liked somebody that you didn't. That's irritating, I know, but it's bound to happen from time to time.)


Denise
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161 posted 11-20-2008 09:55 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise


No, I didnít know that there were lawsuits against McCain concerning his birth status, Jen. By the time I began paying attention to politics in this election cycle, the issue had already apparently been resolved, which is the only thing that I had read about it. And he was held to the same standard as Obama if lawsuits were filed requesting documentation of him. I think everyone should be held to the same standard. It does beg the question though, why does Congress waste its time passing resolutions that are meaningless. What is the point? If they know it doesnít have the weight of law, why did they even bother to weigh in on the issue?  I donít know why a committee composed of all Democrats, which I read was the case, would try to give the issue the appearance of being legally settled for a Republican candidate.

It doesnít matter if records are sealed by him, by law, or by an organization. He has the power to authorize the release of any and all information pertaining to him. That he hasnít given the authorization leads one to believe that he doesnít want it released, which is his right, of course, but leads to questions of why. And since the questions being raised speak to the Constitutional requirements of eligibility for the Office of President, I think that is more relevant than military or health records, or any other records that donít shed light on that or any other Constitutional requirement for the Office. As to his school records and applications, they could answer the question of where he was born, and could also answer whether he received aid in any form as a foreign student when he moved back from Indonesia.

No, I havenít read his books. I have read enough excerpts to convince me that he and I are not in sync ideologically, so I have no interest in reading more of his opinions. And I hope he truly is more of a pragmatist than an ideologue, as he says he is, because frankly, his ideology scares the heck out of me.

Iím sure there are some haters, Ron, but I also think that his secretive nature enhances any fear that people might have about him based on the little that they do know. A little transparency would go along way to put people at ease, tending to facilitate a better atmosphere for potential unity.

There is news to be had, but you couldnít find it in large degrees in the main stream media. Most of what we learned about Obama was learned initially from alternative news sources, not the main stream media, and only made it to the main stream media when they couldnít credibly ignore an issue any longer, it seemed, like the Rev. Wright issue for instance. He was raised as an issue in 2007 by Sean Hannity of Fox News, more than a year before it hit the main stream outlets.  

The ombudsman (woman?) of the Washington Post stated that after doing a study of the number of positive/negative stories on all the candidates, they were obviously favoring Obama in their reporting. They didnít do their job. It isnít their job to favor one candidate over the other. It is their job to report the news objectively, and to be fair and balanced in selecting the stories they run, as they do have the power to sway public opinion.  They shouldn't abuse that power to favor the candidate they like.
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162 posted 11-20-2008 02:12 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


If you donít like sarcasm mixed with a little irony to highlight an absurdity  Mike youíll hate the north of England, itís the bread and butter of banter over here.

As far as criticising your country goes Iím an equal opportunity Grinch, if I see stupidity and absurdity I feel obliged to point it out, regardless of the country of origin. If you donít like it when the stupidity originates in your country, or seems to denigrate a part of it unfairly please feel free to point out the flaws in my logic and Iíll happily explain and discuss them. If for some reason you canít get past the fact that Iím not American, that my opinion is somehow invalid because of that, then please feel free to ignore me - I donít mind either way.

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163 posted 11-20-2008 04:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If the press uniformly conspired to keep you in the dark, Mike, you'd never know it.

True enough but I was referring to the mainstream press. Fortunately they are not the only press or sources of information available....and, yes, Ron, I actually HAVE done a lot of searching on my own. Also, the mainstream press needs to say SOMETHING to cover their derriers. They print just enough not to give information but enough to claim that they had reported it in the future event that it becomes important. I made a mention back in 1999 that Clinton was doing things that we may never know about for several years but would be detrimental to the US. What did I base it on? His dealings with North Korea, China and other governments which the mainstream press did nothing to bring to light. Now, with the possibility of Hillary vying for the Secretary of State position, we may actually see a few of them come out. It's a longshot, I know, but possible. Yesterday he claimed that all FUTURE dealings between himself and foreign governments would be completely open to scrutiny. This statement was applauded by the democrats, claiming it showed Bill's willingness to cooperate. It's an amazing thing....

Grinch...consider it done.
Balladeer
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164 posted 11-20-2008 07:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

your continued harangues about the biased-against-you-and-everything-you-believe press make very little sense.

Ok, Ron,  but I don't have the market cornered on haranguement....

"London's Sunday Times called it "the culmination of one of the most spectacular  victories of the war on terror." A terrorist force that once numbered  more than 12,000, with strongholds in the west and central regions  of  Iraq, has over two years been reduced to a mere 1,200 fighters,  backed  against the wall in the northern city of Mosul.
          
          The  destruction of al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI) is one of the most unlikely and unforeseen events in the long history of American warfare. We can thank President Bush's surge strategy, in which he bucked both Republican  and Democratic leaders in Washington by increasing our forces there instead of surrendering.

Al-Qaida's loss of the hearts and minds of ordinary Iraqis began in Anbar Province , which had been written off as a basket case, and spread out from  there.    Now, in Operation Lion's Roar the Iraqi army and  the U.S. 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment is destroying the fraction of terrorists who are left.  More than 1,000 AQI operatives have already been  apprehended.            
Sunday Times reporter Marie Colvin, traveling  with Iraqi forces in Mosul, found little AQI presence even in  bullet-ridden residential areas that were once insurgency strongholds,  and reported that the terrorists have lost control of its Mosul urban  base, with what is left of the organization having fled south into  the countryside.

But  where are the headlines and the front-page stories about all this good  news? As the Media Research Center pointed out last week, "the  CBS  Evening News, NBC Nightly News and CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 were silent Tuesday night about the benchmarks "that signaled political progress."  
          The  war in Iraq   has been turned around180 degrees both militarily and politically because the president stuck to his guns. Yet apart from IBD, Fox News Channel and parts of the  foreign press, the media don't seem to consider this historic event  a  big story."

Copyright 2008 Investor's Business Daily. All Rights Reserved.


Our mainstream press sculpts the news to present whatever they want to as important and whatever they don't want to as immaterial or non-existant. More people that I alone have that opinion.
            
Ron
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165 posted 11-21-2008 07:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
A terrorist force that once numbered  more than 12,000, with strongholds in the west and central regions  of  Iraq, has over two years been reduced to a mere 1,200 fighters

quote:
As the Media Research Center pointed out last week, "the  CBS  Evening News, NBC Nightly News and CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 were silent Tuesday night about the benchmarks "that signaled political progress."  

Maybe no one told them what the benchmarks were, Mike? I mean, they seem a bit arbitrary to me. Were they set by some standards organization or did Media Research Center just make them up? Why was Tuesday night, specifically, the time to announce the achievement of those benchmarks?

I wonder what Media Research Center was silent on Tuesday night?

quote:
The destruction of al-Qaida in Iraq (AQI) is one of the most unlikely and unforeseen events in the long history of American warfare. We can thank President Bush's surge strategy, in which he bucked both Republican  and Democratic leaders in Washington by increasing our forces there instead of surrendering.

It's honestly good to hear we're making progress. Really, I mean that. I would prefer to see the credit be directed to our soldiers, though. It's hard to be too impressed with President Bush's strategy, after all, when we remember there were virtually NO al-Qaida in Iraq before we invaded. Which just goes to show, perhaps, that benchmarks taken out of context can be a little misleading?


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166 posted 11-21-2008 10:33 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

ďListening to Republicans nowadays is like booking time with a colicky baby. I haven't heard so much whining and crying since my daughter was 3 months old.Ē

The GOP: Evolve or die http://blog.mlive.com/capitolchronicles/2008/11/the_gop_evolve_or_die.html
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167 posted 11-22-2008 10:48 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess she overlooked the eight year long temper tantrum thrown by the left.

But then again, I don't know how long it's been since her daughter was three months old. So maybe she hasn't seen much since then.

And we've just seen what happens when the Repulicans try to run someone in the general election who is not a true conservative, someone less conservative than Bush, someone who was actually the media darling in the Republican primaries, so why do more of the same?

Could it be that McCain lost because it is estimated that nearly 4.1 million Republican voters "simply stayed home"?

Exit poll data from 2004 reveal that President Bush got 55 percent of the male vote and 48 percent of the female vote, while 2008 data show that McCain got 48 percent of the male vote and 43 percent of the female vote. McCain's percentage of the male vote dropped more than his percentage of the female vote, so it's hard to see how alienated women made the difference.

Plus, Karl Rove tells us that there were 4.1 million fewer Republicans voting this year than in 2004, some of whom he believed turned independent or Democratic for this election, which might validate Kathleen's thesis, except that Rove says that most of those 4.1 million "simply stayed home."

What's even more interesting is there was an almost identical drop-off (4.1 million) of those voters who attend religious services more than once a week (evangelicals, anyone?).

http://townhall.com/Columnists/DavidLimbaugh/2008/11/21/evangel icals_-_a_drag_on_or_essential_to_the_gop?page=1  

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168 posted 11-22-2008 11:35 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Scrooge & Marley, Inc. -- The True Conservative Agenda by Thom Hartmann http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0618-03.htm
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169 posted 11-22-2008 12:55 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
If conservative economics are allowed to continue, and we fully revert to the way life was lived by the average person in America in 1890 or Dickens' England (over 40 million in America already have, by the way, many in the past 3 years), there will be no more middle class, just a few more rich CEOs and Bushies, and a lot more terrified workers living in slavery to debt and terrified of unemployment or a serious health crisis. Thom Hartmann

Bah humbug.  

It's not an all or nothing proposition. Hartmann has confused what he calls "conservative economics" with laissez-faire capitalism. His argument is just another example of scare tactics.
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170 posted 11-22-2008 03:56 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I think you are being unduly kind to him Ron!

That was quite hilarious Jenn, reminiscent of our Arthur Scargill in the feisty days of the 1970's and just about as (in)accurate.

Still, it's about time this thread had a bit of good old extreme left  propaganda to counteract the far right treats we've been subject to.
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171 posted 11-22-2008 06:14 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Turn about is fair play, moonbeam. I have the whole weekend off with lots of free time for googling. What's the name of that socialist online thingie?


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172 posted 11-22-2008 07:01 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Found it! Socialistworker.org.  Which, unlike WND, isnít obsessed with Obamaís birth certificate. And this article fits right in the discussion about healthcare.

Brian Jones tells the story of Kingsbridge striker Audrey Smith-Campbell, a health care provider who literally died fighting for health care.
http://socialistworker.org/2008/08/19/life-and-death-struggle

moonbeam
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173 posted 11-23-2008 04:08 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

This constant striving to make out that the "middle-class" and the "working-class" are somehow different people does the socialist cause no good at all imo.  And such outward artificial manifestations of conflict and division as picket lines are particularly destructive.  Which is a shame, because when poor people really have a point about some injustice, wealthier people tend to have less sympathy.

But then I'm a child of the Thatcher years, and a rampant capitalist, so what do I know.
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174 posted 11-23-2008 07:23 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi All -- What started out as a thread hoping for conciliation and support for the administration yet-to-be, has gotten, IMO, both bizarre and ugly.  I won't ask that the thread be closed, "spew" is part of the Alley.  I would hope, though, that we can knock it off and get real.

This is real:

1. Obama is the President elect.
2. He's a US citizen.
3. As President-elect, he deserves our respect.

The rest is nonsense.

Time to quit responding to this thread.  It's over.  Let it go.

Assuming-this-suggestion-will-have-no-effect-whatsoever, give it a rest, Best,
Jimbeaux
 
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