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serenity blaze
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125 posted 11-17-2008 02:27 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

From my Yahoo mailbox ( )

"At this defining moment in history, we believe that Americans of all parties want and need their leaders to come together and change the bad habits of Washington so that we can solve the common and urgent challenges of our time."

A joint statement issued by President Elect Barack Obama and Senator John McCain.

I couldn't have said it better myself.




[This message has been edited by serenity blaze (11-17-2008 03:36 PM).]

JenniferMaxwell
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126 posted 11-17-2008 03:05 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Yep, it's time to quit the bickering, stop spreading lies and innuendos and move on. I think Obama sets a fine example, pay no attention to the nonsense like that posted below put up by a preacher in Kansas, and start pulling together for the good of all in this country.

"America we have a Muslim president. This is sin against the Lord."


oceanvu2
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127 posted 11-17-2008 03:33 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Denise, some sources for you:

Obama’s birth Certificate, Marriage Certificate, drivers license and more from the St. Petersburg Times:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Obama’s Dissertation, from wiki answers:

Barack Obama received his law degree (J.D.) from Harvard. Dissertations are written by Ph.D. students. Therefore, since Obama did not earn a Ph.D., he did not write a disseration. He is well known for holding the prestigious positions of editor and president of the Harvard Law Review, however, and has authored two books: Dreams from my Father and The Audacity of Hope.

Obama’s education, Congressional bio, US Congress.
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=O000167

I think, Reverend Wright held no "place" in the American consciousness before he capitalized on his association with Obama to press his OWN radical agenda, and got his 15 minutes of fame.  Similarly, Sarah Palin held no "place" in our political consciousness outside of Alaska until she got her 15 minutes of fame.

I think Bob K did good and extensive riffs on the issues of guilt by asscociation, or lack of guilt despite association.  Chicago politics have traditionally been rough and tumble, which doesn't mean every Chicago politician is rough or a tumbler.

I tried to find a Number for the size of the CPUSA -- Communist Party of the United States, and couldn't.  The quote below is from the CPUSA website:

"Though still very small, we are a tenacious Party with a long, proud history."

Tenacious, sure, with a long proud history from their POV, but I think the important part is the self admission that it is still a very small group.  You might remember that the McCarthy hearings, at the height of Red Menace fever, produced very few results, consistent with a very small group, and ended in disgrace when McCarthy disgusted even his own party with his absurd allegations that the government was filled with "Reds."

As to agreement or disagreement with my world-view.  First, I don't think anyone knows what my world view is.  I don't feel compelled to explain it, but I have stated previously and consistently that I felt both McCain and Obama were honorable men and viable candidates for President.  Neither share my world view, which is not relevant to American politics.  What is relevant is the consensus of the electorate, which in this case voted for President elect Obama.  

Jenn's link to The American Conservative -- which represents a mainstream conservative point of view -- is worth a long look.

Bob-- You still get my vote for the world's fastest typist.

Best, Jimbeaux  

And apologies.  I still haven't mastered the link-thingy.  When I write these responses in Word then paste them to "the Box" links that show up fine as links in Word get double listed and consfused in the transition.  Don't know how they will come out in this post, but they look like links at the moment.  That was the edit.

Best, Jimbeaux

Denise
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128 posted 11-17-2008 07:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Well who would have thought that The American Conservative would have been considered an acceptable source when Fox News isn't. I'm floored. I guess you learn something new everyday.

In all I've read about his birth certificate, the interest in his name was never mentioned as a concern. The concern was, is he actually a natural-born citizen? That can't be determined unless the long form vault birth certificate is seen, not just the registry of live birth that doesn't list a doctor's signature and hospital name. Suspicion arose when his Kenyan grandmother said she was in attendance at his birth in Kenya, even giving the name of the hospital, whereupon she was ordered by the Kenyan government not to discuss it again. He could have ended the controversy by simply having his vault certificate presented, instead of increasing suspicion by petitioning, along with the DNC, to have all the lawsuits requesting verification thrown out. And the hospitals in Kenya and Hawaii have since refused to verify any information about his being born there or not. Such an easy issue to settle, and yet instead there is nothing but stonewalling.

I find it hard to believe that between two colleges and law school he never had to write a thesis. But the thesis is not the only issue. All of his school records have been sealed. So absolutely nothing can be determined about those years, independently of his own statements.

As for Ayers, Rev. Wright, Father Pfleger, Rezko, his associations with Acorn and other radical elements, I believe that we are known by the company we keep.
Bob K
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129 posted 11-17-2008 07:26 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




Dear Denise,

          Jim A. has offered you some details about the birth certificate and the facts around who does and does not write a thesis for graduate degrees.  My Ed.M. from Harvard didn't require a thesis.  The Law School there did not; nor, as Jim said, do law schools require them in general.  Obama had an excellent enough reputation there to get elected to the Law Review, which is an honor in itself.  To be elected the Editor of the Law Review at Harvard is extraordinary, not only because of the level of scholarship required but because the Law School at Harvard is and was then strongly and about evenly split between Liberal and Conservative readings of the law.  Everybody felt that Obama was the best candidate, and after the election the complaints came mostly from the left, who felt that Obama was too conservative for them in many ways.


     The article below is a fairly straightforward review of Obama as Editor of The Review.  It has plusses and minuses; I'm not trying to skew the discussion.  Should you check, there seems to be a Frontline segment available which is more accessible, and which goes into more about how he and the conservatives at The Review got along — apparently well.  I think because the source is PBS you might find the information dubious, though I think it seems solid.  Your call.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080623/pl_politico/11257


     If I had some more specific notions about what you felt was being hidden, I might try a shot at digging up information myself.  

     A lot of information has been surpressed by the current government, I've found.  As it comes out — when it comes out — it turns out that the government has been lying to us.  About torture, of course, that's the one that probably bothers me the most.  We've had quite a bit of this with out current administration, and to see you worrying about what might happen in the future. . . .  I guess it just boggles my mind.  I know your fears are honest, and that these are things that actually concern you, and I really am sympathetic that you actually are suffering from them.  That much seems plain.

     But the sort of stuff that's been going on over the last eight years has been, for me, just as terrible.  

     But then, again, Denise, How does a person measure these things?  Of course, of course.

     Let me know some of the specifics and I'll try to address some of them with you as best I can.  I don't promise that I'll change your mind.  Your mind is fine the way it is, I'm sure.  But there may be other information kicking around that hasn't been publicised or whatever.

     I'll try to give it a shot.  When I wander into some areas that seem as though I'm lacking information, you chime in.  Let's try to listen to each other, and see what we can get straightened out.  Or something like that.  It looked like there were some other folks who were interested in the process.  What do you folks have to say?

Sincerely, Bob Kaven

JenniferMaxwell
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130 posted 11-17-2008 08:11 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Don't you think, Denise, that if there was even the slightest possibility that Obama was born in Kenya, or any place else outside the US, the Republicans would have their legions of lawyers on it? And the same goes for any other dead horse right wing bloggers keep dragging up, like his Selective Service registration.

Rumors and conspiracy theories will only set one side against another. Time to come together, work out our differences and heal the wounds caused by present administration.

Obama did write a thesis at Columbia. You can read about it here: http://deepbackground.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/24/1219454.aspx  

As for the company we keep, I think it's more important what we do. Jesus seemed to think so, too.
Bob K
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131 posted 11-17-2008 11:55 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Denise,

          The Annenberg folks fact-checked the birth certificate.  You may check out the material yourself by looking the material up on the web.  The Annenbergs, by the way, were close friends of Ronald Reagan and if I remember correctly were involved with TV Guide, which is where I think their money came from.  They seem to feel they have a vested interest in accurate reporting.

     Here is the Annenberg Fact Checking Article reference:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html


     The Snopes rumor busting folks have some stuff to say about this rumor as well, as follows:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp


     I have tried to keep my references objective as possible.


     My impression is that the Birth certificate is and has been available for a while now.  A fair number of unsubstantiated and dubious sources keep attempting to fabricate material about the certificate and the facts.  The more fabrications, apparently, the better.  I know  that you’ve quoted the old saw,  "Where there’s smoke, there’s fire."  I would remind you of the bitter lesson that we Californians have had to learn:  Often, when there’s fire, there’s an arsonist.  

     Cui Bono?

     I don't know if this particular influx of information is at all helpful for you.  I would suggest that you try checking around yourself, and try throwing out anything unsubstantiated or speculative.  I try to do it, though of course I always mess up, and I depend on folks like you to keep me at least trying to stay objective.  Do you think I have my information straight on this one — as opposed to the opinions that I do have and try to be up front about?  Do you think I have my facts straight?  And if not, where should I look for the facts that I'm missing, and what's wrong with the facts that I'm looking at?

     When you say all of Obama's school records have been sealed, what does this mean.  I suspect you would have difficulty in getting to my school records as well, since you have no reason to see them.  We apparently know what classes and professors the Senator took, and we apparently know which schools he went to and positions he held.  It sounds that you are saying there is stuff that you don't know that you have already made reference to, or have heard other people make reference to.  

     People in fact actually do this all the time, but the effect is that they make themselves feel more confused or more upset than in fact they have objective grounds to justify being.  Which things specifically do you need to access about Obama's school life that you haven't been able to gain access to?  

     For myself, I wonder if you've been as upset about having or not having access to such information about previous Presidents, and which ones they might be?

     I confess that I tend to be very nervous about conservative Presidents.

     As for your comments about judging people by whom they associate with, I can understand what you're saying, but I suspect it's not a good policy overall.  Given your serious religious committment, you should be hanging out with a worse class of people, shouldn't you?  At least that's the way I always understood the gospels.  You should be spending a lot of time with the poor and the disadvantaged and about zero time judging them.

     Now much of the time I spent hanging around the poor and disadvantaged was time I spent occasionally getting beaten up, mind you; that and getting seriously underpayed.  And being given stupid orders; it's not all that it's cracked up to be all the time.

     But you, Denise, have unbeknownst to yourself, hung around with left wing radicals with shady pasts, and have even spoken to them as if they were real live human beings.  Which, by the way, many of us are.  According to you, this should make you somebody pretty wretched yourself, were you to apply the rules to you and yours that you would have me apply to the world.  You may have even known other anti-AmeriKKKans — as I used the word the other day — in your history.  Were I to hunt down all these second and third-hand associations and pretend that you were the same as the past of every person you'd ever spent substantial periods of time with, I fear I could blacken your reputation beyond any hope of redemption.  To absolutely no point at all.

     You would still be the same basically decent woman that I write to on occasion.  You would probably not be a revolting communist sympathizer, or a closet abortionist or any other wretched thing that I might delight in painting you with by association.  Among other things it's generally considered a logical fallacy — guilt by association, I mean.  It's no more reasonable than flipping the notion about and saying simply because somebody is named Washington, they have oodles of money and own a plantation in Virginia.  No go.  

     The chains of logic must be built syllogistically for the connection to be logically valid.  It sounds like a strong connection, because it's built on feeling; and feeling is important too, just not this way.  I think.


Sincerely,  Bob Kaven

[This message has been edited by Bob K (11-18-2008 01:04 AM).]

oceanvu2
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132 posted 11-18-2008 01:19 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Phillip Berg, a right wing nut case, started the Kenyan Grandmother thing by claiming to have a taped converstation of Obama's grannie stating she was present at Barak's birth.  He said he would produce the tape in a few days.  The tape was never produced, but the absurd rumor was started, embelished, and so on, one bit of lunacy leading to another.  This is the important part, IMO:  THE TAPE WAS NEVER PRODUCED!

The difference between "The American Conservative" and Fox News is the exact difference some have been talking about between credible, and non credible sources. It is similar to Bob K's comparision of "The Nation" to "Mother Jones."  All four outlets have agendas.  Two present their positions rationally, two don't.  Conservatives aren't crazy people.  Extreme right wing loonies are.  Liberals aren't crazy people, extreme left-wing loonies are.

Fox News is an "entertainment" channel.  It's objective, as is the objective of ALL commercial tv stations, is to kill time between commercials with something that will keep people watching.  Fox Cable News chooses to use less than well grounded sensationalism as it's hook.  The MSM gives us cop shows and sit-coms. Local network affiliated news stations give us car chases, murders and the weather.  "Television news," in the sense of journalistic integrity and import, is an oxymorn.

This is the best I can do with the link thingy to Berg, but it comes up as one of the first references on google under "Obama's Kenyan Grandmother":
www.wnd.com/index.php
fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78931

Best, Jimbeaux
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133 posted 11-18-2008 10:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

As for your comments about judging people by whom they associate with, I can understand what you're saying, but I suspect it's not a good policy overall.

Interesting, Bob.  There are a lot of Latins who would disagree with you, since one of their favorite slogans is, "Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are."

Given your serious religious committment, you should be hanging out with a worse class of people, shouldn't you?  At least that's the way I always understood the gospels. You should be spending a lot of time with the poor and the disadvantaged and about zero time judging them.  

Another very interesting comment. I wasn't aware that being poor or disadvantaged slotted one into a "worse class of people". My wife in Venezuela was with the Peace Corps and we lived in the poorest section of Caracas. Poor and disadvantaged people were our friends and neighbors. I never thought of them as either a worse or lower class of people. They were people who did not have the money or opportunities to be a "better class of person" but I would have put their morals, integrity and honesty along with anyone you may consider better class..

With all due respect, you references and examples to Denise about "second and third-class" associations sounds more like a bit of damage control than anything else. Obama's associations were much more than second and third class, as you well know. Comparing someone Denise might have known and tried to help, who had a shady background with the likes of reverend Wright, the man who baptized Obama's children, the man Obama called his "spiritual mentor" and the man whose words Obama took to title his book, is a little far-fetched to me. The same goes for his other associations, which have all come under scrutiny.

Conducting social functions with someone and comparing it to a social worker, trying to better the life of an unfortunate  goes beyond unfair and there's really no call for it, no matter how eloquent one tries to make it. Obama won. The past associations at this point are moot. Let's hope they stay that way.
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134 posted 11-18-2008 10:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

On another point Denise made, Obama has been the least investigated presidential candidate in history, I believe. No one ever really put much effort into investigating his qualifications, background, associations or much of anything else. He just got a free pass. There was a conversation between Tom Brokaw and Charlie Rose after the election. When Rose asked Brokaw about Obama's thoughts or plans on the international side, Brokaw admitted that, in reality, he had no idea what Obama's thoughts were. He added that, actually, no one really knew that much about Obama at all. Naturally, he would never have dreamed of saying that before the election, but afterwards, that's what he acknowledged. On the reverend Wright side and Obama's claim that he never sat in on any sermon in which Wright used such tactics, that would have been very easy to check. It was certainly easy for the press to place Sarah Palin in church at a time her pastor made a controversial remark. They did it in record time. Why wouldn't they do it with Obama? The answer is very simple and you know it.

In all fairness to Obama, Hillary got the same hands-off treatement by the press. Her qualifications were microscopic and left untouched. Her many shady past instances, including the White House travel office, her land dealings and countless others, were also not worthy of mention. Only now that she is being spoken of as a possible Secretary of State candidate, are people willing to take a look at her past, including her husband's wheeling and dealing with foreign governments and how much personal gain he got out of it...and what he did or promised to get it.

Bill Clinton's foundation is one aspect of his finances and business relationships that are reportedly being examined as part of the vetting process for the secretary of state post. Since leaving the White House in 2001, he has amassed a multimillion-dollar fortune and built the foundation through his ties to corporations and foreign governments.
USA Today


The press wanted him in and he's in. We will now see  if he is qualified or not, something that should have been checked out long before now.
Denise
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135 posted 11-18-2008 11:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Jim, Philip Berg is not a right wing nut case. He is a life-long Democrat and former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania, and most recently a Hillary Clinton supporter. His suit was filed prior to Obama being nominated by the Democratic Party. But he may be a nut. He's the one who filed the lawsuit against Bush & Cheyney accusing them of being complicit in 911.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzFl-Gm_Kc

There are currently eight lawsuits from different states at either the state or federal level, including one that includes two of the California electors as plaintiffs. We'll have to see how it all shakes out.

And I disagree with your assesment of Fox News. No surprise there, I guess.

Jen and Bob, when Obama has no record other than his time in the Illinois Senate and his 2 years in the U.S. Senate, with no significant legislation under his belt, and only his reputation as the most left wing liberal in the Senate, his associations become very important in an attempt to evaluate the essence of the man. Who is he really? What does he stand for really? With so many shady and radical characters in his circle, it gives one pause. But as Michael said it's a moot point now. But that doesn't produce any confidence in me about him. And the fact that all his records have been sealed only increases suspicion about him in people's minds. It would be so easy to produce his birth certificate to a judge and end all the controversy, but yet he refuses. To me, it says he is hiding something. What I don't know, but he is hiding something. Either that or he is simply the most arrogant politician imaginable.

And if you can demonstrate to me that Obama was hanging out with all those characters for the purpose of expressing God's love to them and for their spiritual enlightenment and edification, then I'll consider your comparison to Jesus hanging out with publicans and sinners, Jen. I suspect, though, that their motivations were quite different. I mean we have to use our common sense. Would any parent buy the argument from their kid that they are going to continue hanging out with prostitutes and thieves because Jesus did? The underlying motivation for the associations is the defining factor of the associations. And I have no idea what the RNC might be doing behind the scenes. Maybe they are waiting to see how all these lawsuits are resolved. Maybe they are attempting to do their own investigation. Maybe they don't think it's an issue worth investigating.
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136 posted 11-19-2008 04:58 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Denise,

           You speak about "Obama's record as the most Left-wing Liberal in the Senate."  This has been a Republican talking point for months.  You say this as though Liberal were a dirty word.  I am proud to be a Liberal.  My wife and I have a disagreement about joining the ACLU, so we haven't joined.  She doesn't like the ACLU position on parental rights.  The ACLU believes that Parental rights ought to be pre-eminent, while my wife believes that the child's rights should be considered first.  

     I believe that there's more to the ACLU than this single issue, with which I am at odds with them.  I feel the point of the matter is that the organization is there to defend the constitution and the bill of rights, which was meant to be deeply offensive, so that it could protect those folks that needed it against the tyrannies of those majorities that would otherwise bury them.

     My problem with Obama is that he isn't Liberal enough, and that IU haven't heard any plans from him yet about what he's going to do with all those powers that the current administration has been hoarding for the executive branch.  What about those wire-tap powers?  What about the all-too easy access to our medical records and the potential curtailment of our ability to travel, the potential limits to habeas, and the Presidential right to designate anybody of his choosing somebody without rights, and without having easy access to counsel, as though they were a captured terrorist.  What about the signing statements that the current President has taken to signing, trespassing on the rights of congress?  Obama has said nothing so far that I am aware of — hopefully he has that I am not aware of at this point — about his willingness to address these issues.  These to me are emergencies.  That we have allowed them to snowball through two Republican administrations is unbelievable!  The possibility that we might allow them to last through a Democratic administration, or two, and thus allow the imprimatur of both parties upon these insults to constitutional law and freedom tacitly to be confirmed is a calamity of proportion that I can only vaguely begin to understand.  Certainly any silly inter-party bickering would seem like a tea party in comparison.

     There's something more important at stake here, Denise, than whether Obama is Liberal.  If he's a Liberal, gee, so much the better; he'd be less likely to go along with this sort of thing, really; same as if he was an honest conservative.  We need people who are committed to constitutional democracy, and the actual party shouldn't matter all that much as long as the basic commitment is there.  That means to talking things out with the people around you as honestly as you can.

That's the best I can do for right now.  I'm interested in what anybody has to say.  I appreciated Jim's comments as well as Mike's and Denise's.  Thank you, J.M.

     Denise, Why not write to Obama and ask him why he hung out with those various folks in Chicago?

     You have yourself in a tough place about this sort of thing.  That is, I cannot imagine any circumstance under which you would accept an answer different than the one which you have already accepted.  This may be utterly wrong of me to think, but actually, under what realistic circumstances would you feel you could actually accept contradictory information?

     I did offer you a link to the birth certificate and to their reported examinations of it by the Annenberg foundation.  You may have missed the link or may not know what to make of Foundation.  Check them out.  Pretty neutral, as I understand it.  The family were friends with the Reagans, and they are interested in objectivity and fact-checking in journalism.  They apparently have no axe to grind.
They have also supported some middle of the road and Left-wing stuff, but in terms of scholarship and research, to the best of my understanding.

     Whatever.

     All my best, Sincerely,  Bob Kaven

Denise
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137 posted 11-19-2008 10:58 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, I can accept contradictory information if I find it plausible after considering it. But that doesn't necessarily mean I will change my mind if I find my currently held conviction to be just as plausible or more plausible.

Party affiliation means nothing to me, but as a conservative I usually find more in common with Repulicans than Democrats, for the most part.

Don't you find something just a little bit strange about Obama posting a certificate of live birth online, which is a different document than the long-form vault birth certificate, instead of just giving a copy of the document that he knows would end all the controversy to a judge, or other designated legal authority?

Maybe the next time I renew my passport I'll just tell the clerk to check out my birth certificate online at my website, with the assurance that it has been verified as authentic by factcheck. How do you think that would go over? Would I get my passport?
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138 posted 11-19-2008 12:30 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Are you suggesting that Obama's American passport was obtained illegally - that he didn't actually show proof of citizenship, provide the required certified birth certificate?
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139 posted 11-19-2008 02:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise,

          You also need actually to read the contradictory information before you can consider it, before you can consider its plausibility, even before you can make a decision as to whether to accept or reject it.  

     I do not find it odd that Obama would allow the Annenberg people to look at the certificate.  There were four issues Obama had to deal with, if you thing about it.  One was an attempt to put the election on hold through a legal maneuver, and do some damage to the country and the political process as a whole.  That was stopped by a writ from the Supreme court at the last minute saying that it was legal for the election to continue (and my interpretation of that is that the lawsuit was of secondary importance to the orderly transition of power to a new administration, whichever that might have been).  Second was an attempt to discredit Obama in the eyes of the voters and hopefully turn the election toward McCain by offering another smear in an election already distinguished by them.  Third was an attempt to weaken Obama should he get elected by attacking his legitimacy.  And here, way down at the bottom of the list, is any sort of legal fallout that might be of any import in a lawsuit that would probably considered moot should Obama lose, and that most of the country things is looney to begin with.  That would be number four.

     So no, I find it pretty unsurprising that Obama would be less concerned about the legal aspects of the situation than you think he ought to be.  I consider his move a pretty solid one.  Should the suit have grounds to go forward, maybe then a judge might have a look, maybe; otherwise to get involved in the legal end of it beforehand would have given the thing more fuel.  That would have been stupid of Obama.  I would have done the stupid thing and lost, myself, which is why I'd be a terrible politician.

     As a conservative, you ought to understand the notion of pay your bills and stay within your budget, put your money to work helping your own by investing in capital improvements such as infrastructure, and make sure that you keep up with maintenance, because if you don't, the bill will only be larger down the line, and in the end, we're the ones who have to pay it.  Do it right the first time, and keep it up and it'll cost less in the long run.  Don't skimp on doing the thing right, because it will come back and bite you later on; then you'll have nobody to blame but yourself.

     We should have broad agreement on these things because these are values that I think Liberals and Conservatives both agree on.  These are basic Democratic values, as are tolerance and respect.  

quote:

Maybe the next time I renew my passport I'll just tell the clerk to check out my birth certificate online at my website, with the assurance that it has been verified as authentic by factcheck. How do you think that would go over? Would I get my passport?



     Actually, what you would do is follow the steps the Department of State has set up for renewal of Passports.  As I recall, you don't necessarily have to get a new copy of your Birth Certificate for that, though perhaps you do.  I don't think it matters all that much for the purposes of our discussion:  What you would do is follow the prescribed steps, same as everybody else.

     And that is exactly what I expect Senator Obama to do, to follow the same steps as anybody else in his situation.  I would feel insulted if people started asking me for my birth certificate at that point in the election cycle.  Knowing Senator McCain's temper, I don't imagine he was too thrilled either.  Nor was Herbert Hoover.  If you go to the original Annenberg site, you can even see a copy of the birth announcement from the Honolulu paper in 1961.

     If the suit ever gets to court and it doesn't get thrown out for the waste of time it probably is, it will be The Supreme Court, and they will be judging the issue on points of Law, and probably won't be looking at evidence like birth certificates anyway, will they now?

     So no, you don't get your passport if you don't do the things you need to do to apply for the passport.  Neither does Obama.  Including his birth certificate.  If he has a passport, you've already shown that he's shown proof of citizenship, haven't you?  Unless. . .

     Perhaps you mean that you want him to prove himself innocent, like they do in Europe and in countries that do things the French way:  A person is always assumed guilty until they prove themselves innocent.  That's the Napoleonic Code, and we over here in American only hate one thing worse than our justice system, and that's every other justice system in the world.

     Perhaps for this one little thing, though, you're saying we should turn things around because. . . . Why?

Sincerely yours, Bob Kaven
oceanvu2
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140 posted 11-19-2008 02:58 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Denise -- OK, my bad.  Berg is a left wing nut case.  The point is, the alleged documentation of Obama's Kenyan birth, the taped conversation Berg promised to supply, was never supplied.  Now, if a fellow makes a highly inflammatory charge, then fails to follow up the the evidence he claims to have, what does one's garbage detector make of that?  
On people voting for "personalities," rather than platforms, one example is Al Franken, a mediocre comic and satirist, with no experience in public office, who still has a chance of becoming Minnesota's new Senator.  This is politics of personality.  I think Reagan, Kennedy, and Obama were elected in large part because they were charismatic characters.  This doesn't mean that a charismatic character can't be a good leader, it just means, IMO, that people often vote for the person, not the platform.  If Joe Biden was the Democratic nominee, in the end, he might have won, but IMO, the popular vote would have been a lot closer.  McCain is certainly a charismatic character and media-genic, but I doubt that any Republican could have overcome the Bush-Cheney legacy.  And if Mitt Romney had run, Obama's margin of victory would have been even greater.  Personalities.

I don't believe, but this is just me, that McCain would have given us four or eight more years of Bush/Cheney economics, foreign policy, or disregard for the constitution.  In the Clinton-Obama run for the nomination, do you think the final result was based on an examination of platform, or an emotional response to personality?

The beauty of the internet is that anyone can blog or post anything.  That doesn't mean there is any reason to believe all or any of it.  The problem with the internet is that just having an opinion in print gives it unjustified credibility.

Deer, there's another possibility involving Obama being the least investigated of Presidential candidates.  It's the possibility that there was not much negative material of substance to be found.  His preacher turned out to be a hate monger.  He smoked marijuana in college.  He associated with Saul Alinsky and ACORN, a person and group not everyone approves of. That's about it for "dirt."  The rest is sheer speculation and nonsense.
He wasn't born in Kenya, he didn't attend a madras, he isn't a Muslim, his "missing senior thesis" was actually an independent study project in conjunction with a year long class for exceptional students at Columbia that wound up in the garbage just as mine did, and when you request a copy of your birth certificate from your home state, you get just that, a copy with a crimped State Seal. It will get you a driver's license, a passport, and the opportunity to become a Senator.  No government agency has ever questioned his citizenship, because there isn't any question.

If the Alley had a larger readership, and I were to post the notion that Obama, a follower in the tradition of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, had a secret agenda to insure black supremacy in the US through the creation of a Hitler Youth program, someone would pick it up and run with it, because it plays to their paranoia, and see "It says so, right here!"

In the words of the eminent philosopher, Susan Caldwell, "It's all OK."

Bob K -- check your email.  Sometimes PiP IM's wind up in "spam."

Best, Jimbeaux  
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141 posted 11-19-2008 03:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, I'm not suggesting anything of the kind, Jen. What I am suggesting is that I wouldn't be able to tell someone to look up my birth certificate on my website and assure them that factcheck checked it out and says it's okay. I would be required to present it personally for inspection to whomever is requesting it. So it doesn't make sense to me that Obama should think what he did is sufficient, especially when he knows that what the suits are requesting isn't the short form that he put online anyway. He & the DNC were both served, as defendants in the cases, the first time last August, before the nomination, and they know exactly what is being requested. The suits are requesting the long form vault birth certificate that lists the name of the hospital, location of the hospital, and attending physician, information that doesn't appear on the short form.

Bob, you presume to know what I read?  

Jim, I saw a clip of Berg a couple of weeks ago saying that he was going to release the tape in a few days after he gets "the affidavit", I think he said from someone verifying that it was Obama's grandmother's voice on the tape.  So maybe it hasn't arrived yet, or maybe the person changed his/her mind about cooperating with Berg.
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142 posted 11-19-2008 06:22 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I must admit I’m amazed to learn on the Interweb that both Obama and McCain might not be natural born citizens.

Talk about a breach in homeland security, what sort of incompetent intelligence service is the current administration running? It beggars belief that the intelligence service can obtain enough evidence regarding the life story and political philosophy of a Kebab cook from Turkmenistan to incarcerate him in Gitmo indefinitely without trial yet at the same time spectacularly fail to spot two foreign nationals running for President!

If this is true the terms American Security, and American Intelligence need to be seriously reassessed, how can you trust the idiots responsible for protecting your country if they can’t even run a simple background check of two potential Presidents?

It boggles the mind.

Grinch
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143 posted 11-19-2008 06:33 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


This made me laugh so much I almost fell off my chair:

Upon investigation into the birth of Barack Hussein Obama in Honolulu, Hawaii,
Obama’s birth is reported as occurring at two (2) separate hospitals, Kapiolani Hospital
and Queens Hospital. Wikipedia English Version under the subject “Barack Obama”
states Obama was born at Kapiolani Hospital. Wikipedia Italian Version under the
subject “Queens Hospital” states Barack Obama was born in Queens Hospital.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/berg.pdf

They’re citing Wikipedia as evidence! Where did these bozos get their qualifications, Never Never Land?

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144 posted 11-19-2008 06:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Deer, there's another possibility involving Obama being the least investigated of Presidential candidates.  It's the possibility that there was not much negative material of substance to be found.

I'm the one who sells swampland. It's humorous that someone is trying to sell it to me...no sale  

On people voting for "personalities," rather than platforms, one example is Al Franken, a mediocre comic and satirist, with no experience in public office, who still has a chance of becoming Minnesota's new Senator.  This is politics of personality.  I think Reagan, Kennedy, and Obama were elected in large part because they were charismatic characters.

Yes, Jim, you are right. Personality was a big part of Obama's getting elected but the big thing was how the media conducted themselves in presenting their views to the public. If you have a little free time, check out this link and you will see what points the media hammered into the heads of voters whenever they could. It's very interesting....
http://howobamagotelected.com/

JenniferMaxwell
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145 posted 11-19-2008 06:59 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

What you seem to be suggesting now, Denise, is that since Obama does have an American passport, then he must have proven his citizenship by showing a certified copy of his birth certificate, not just referring authorities to the copy posted online.

Authorities in Hawaii say they've seen his vault certificate and have attested without a doubt he was born in Hawaii, the State Department records reflect he's shown proof of citizenship in order to get his American passport, so isn't it time to let it go?

I wasn't going to bring up McCain's birth certificate but since Grinch did, a little digression. Did he show his original birth certificate, the vault copy, or a certified copy the same as Obama did? And did he ever explain why his birth wasn't listed in the official Panama birth records?  And, why did he refuse to reveal his military records? Was he trying to hide something or was he just being arrogant?

Denise
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146 posted 11-19-2008 07:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Proof of citizenship isn't the issue, Jen. You can have citizenship without being a "natural born" citizen, which is a requirement under the Constitution to be President.

McCain did present his long form birth certificate and related documents to get a determination of his status since he was actually born in Panama. He was born of two U.S. citizens, in the Panama Canal Zone while his father was stationed there in the military. The Senate issued a Resolution that he is a natural born citizen under those circumstances. Maybe he isn't in the official Panama birth records because he was born on what was considered U.S. soil, the military base there.

I haven't heard of his refusing to release his miltary records. But even if he didn't release them, it doesn't rise to the level of a Constitutional issue as a Presidential candidate's birthplace might. So I don't see arrogance there. Refusing to release information that can verify your claim of eligibility which would settle the issue, if you can, seems to be a thumbing of the nose at the Constitution and/or the people who are concerned whether the requirements have been met.
JenniferMaxwell
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147 posted 11-19-2008 08:35 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Are you suggesting Obama is a naturalized citizen? Have you proof of that? Wouldn't there be official records one could get copies of by filing a FOIA request?

The Senate Resolution isn't binding, it's an opinion that doesn't carry the weight of law.

Have you seen McCain's vault certificate? What's the name of the hospital where he was born? I vaguely remember reading some discussion about the fact that the hospital listed hadn't been built when he was born and that the actual location of his birth was outside US controlled territory. Births of military dependents were listed in the Panamanian registry of births. McCain's wasn't. How can one explain that?

As to his military records, if he's got nothing to hide then why didn't he release them? Seems awfully suspicious to me.

Ron
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148 posted 11-19-2008 08:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In the Clinton-Obama run for the nomination, do you think the final result was based on an examination of platform, or an emotional response to personality?

Personality, Jim? Isn't that, to a large extent, just shorthand for ability to lead?

I tend to flip-flop between parties because I really don't put a lot of credence in platforms. Most politicians are just going to say what they think everyone wants to hear any way, and no platform I've seen has ever aligned with my own. I don't mean to belittle platforms, because they do indeed cover important stuff. I'm personally more interested in finding the man who will do the right thing when the stuff hits the fan.

I look for intelligence, integrity, and the ability to lead. You want to call that personality? On the rare occasion we find those qualities in both candidates, I call it damn lucky.

quote:
Refusing to release information that can verify your claim of eligibility which would settle the issue, if you can, seems to be a thumbing of the nose at the Constitution and/or the people who are concerned whether the requirements have been met.

The latter, I would think, Denise. Or, at least, ignoring them. That's usually the best course with frivolous law suits.
Grinch
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149 posted 11-19-2008 08:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
The Senate issued a Resolution that he is a natural born citizen under those circumstances.


I think you’ll find that the resolution issued in April 2008 has no legal standing whatsoever and cannot be used as evidence of citizenship.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp

I personally believe both McCain and Obama are eligible to be President, presumably so does Bush and hopefully so too do the people responsible for your country’s security.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the incumbent President has an overriding duty to protect your country and its citizens. If that’s the case would you not consider it a gross dereliction of that duty not to ensure that the next President wasn’t a terrorist supporting, Marxist, foreign national?

Your government has either vetted both candidate’s origins and backgrounds and found nothing or they’ve dropped the ball big time and decided to forego even the most basic background checks. I work for a security company, when I was first employed the company had, by law, to run a background check to verify all the information I supplied - including my nationality. Can you imagine for one minute that a candidate for the Presidency isn’t subject to vetting at least as rigorous as the one I had to go through?

I’d rather believe both candidates were checked out and came up clean because the alternative is that your security and intelligence services aren’t particularly secure or intelligent.

Is that what you’re suggesting Denise? That your government is so inept that it wouldn’t check before allowing an ineligible President to take control of the nation? I just can’t see it, it defies all reasonable common sense.

Of course I could be wrong.


 
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