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oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


50 posted 11-09-2008 11:25 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Grinch: On rereading your post a little more seriously, silly me, I note:  

"Itís a label proudly worn by quite a few of my fellow countrymen and, I presume, quite a few of yours."

I'll take your word for it about your countrymen, of which I am one though twice removed, but take issue with your "presumption."

There's a problem with presumptions in this and most Alley discussions, of which many, except me, of course, are guilty.  One may "presume" certain inanities such as "the sun will come up in the morning," inane because the sun neither comes up and there is only a morning because we choose to say so, but harmless.

Some presumptions are downright harmful, such as one groups presumption that another group should be subject to genocide because they presumably deserve it.

Your post (keeping it impersonal) seems to fall somewhere between the inane and the unconscionable, which isn't half bad.  Though certainly not good.

NUMBERS! FACTS! NUMBERS! FACTS! Nothing here so far.

I understand that working from speculation and occasional sheer fantasy is more amusing than looking at reality.  If I had to deal with reality all the time I'd be bored to death.

But hey, it's late, I'm grumpy, and always expect more from others than I expect from myself.

So I'm off to do serious prescription drugs and return to posts of sheer brilliance in this thread tomorrow.

Best, Jimbeaux
oceanvu2
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51 posted 11-09-2008 11:30 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Mike: Re "What do I object to? I object to someone telling me that, since I have more than that person, I have to give him some of mine."

Jesus said that.  You could look it up.

Best, Jimbeaux
vlraynes
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since 07-25-2000
Posts 9136
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52 posted 11-09-2008 11:52 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

I don't post in the Alley much, and especially not
in the political threads... but I do sometimes follow them,
as I have been doing recently, and tonight, I find myself
needing to add my 2 cents to the mix...

With all due respect to all concerned and especially
to Sunshine, since I'm quoting her here...

This question...

"I do wonder why you wish to sling what
some would call mud on America's decisions?"


Again, with all due respect, from what I have been reading
in this and other threads, not to mention in the media
and elsewhere, it is not only Grinch who is doing the 'slinging'...

I don't know Grinch and can't speak for his motives or
intentions, but it seems to me that a great many Americans
are engaging in plenty of 'slinging' of their own...

My intention is not to point fingers or offend anyone,
but rather to question what, of any positive nature,
is to be gained by Americans (or anyone for that matter)
bad-mouthing, insulting and questioning the intelligence of
their fellow Countrymen, simply because they don't agree...

We all have our ideas/beliefs/concerns about what may or
may not happen under the leadership of our newly elected President...
that's only natural... but who does it benefit to cast stones,
verbal or otherwise, at him as well as at those who CHOSE him
as our leader, particularly before he's even begun to 'lead'?

I just believe there is so much more to be gained by coming together
for a common good than by tearing one another down
because we fear the possibility of the 'bad'...

Again.. just my 2 cents...

Much love and respect to all...

"When the power of love overcomes the love
of power the world will know peace."
--Jimi Hendrix
Balladeer
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53 posted 11-10-2008 12:27 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jim, if Jesus were around these days, I wonder if he would be a registered Democrat or Republican?
Grinch
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54 posted 11-10-2008 08:33 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Sunshine,

quote:
I would politely ask you, Sir; is the UK ready to take leadership again?


Absolutely definitely not!

In fact Iíd even venture that the British never really led, even at the height of the empire, they, like the Romans before them, ruled. The British empire spread around the globe like a plague, raping the natural resources of every nation they laid claim to with little thought for the indigenous inhabitants. My ancestors were a nasty bunch of egotistical thieves interspersed with a few great men and women who recognised the fact and tried to change it.

I donít think any single nation should lead the world, my ideal would be each nation being allowed to rule itself with a United Nations that actually works to deal with disputes and global issues.

quote:
Yet you yourself seem at times eager to say or imply that America is failing,


Thatís probably because the evidence seems to suggest that it is, in fact, failing, ignoring the facts doesnĎt make them go away.

quote:
and I always seem to sense some glee in your remarks.


Itís not glee, itís frustration and exasperation, America was once a nation the world looked to as an example, an ideal to imitate and aspire to. Internationally America has lost that image. It started a long time ago, in Britain it can probably be traced to the second world war. Since then the image of America has been slowly eroded and itís name tarnished. I like Americans, I like America what I donít like is that America could be so much more and, in my opinion, is throwing away the opportunity.

When somebody says that the long term American economy is strong and I point out that the current projected debt is $53 billion dollars Iím not trying to rub anyone up the wrong way for the sheer fun of it, Iím simply pointing out that the facts donít support the assertion. That could. I admit, be seen as slinging mud but the mud does exist, Iím not making it up, and if slinging it at someone gets them to recognise itís existence and do something about it I see that as a good thing.

quote:
What do you fear?


In the words of one of the greatest leaders ever to live - fear itself.

Grinch
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55 posted 11-10-2008 09:12 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
NUMBERS! FACTS! NUMBERS! FACTS! Nothing here so far.


Jim,

I like numbers but sometimes getting them is an impossible task, how many people in the US avoid paying tax for instance? Thereís a paradox built into such questions, for anyone to give you the true figures theyíd have to know exactly who wasnít paying their taxes. The paradox is that if that were possible to ascertain the taxman would have done it and those people would suddenly find themselves paying their taxes.

People claiming benefits falsely falls into the same category, if I could tell you who and how many were ripping off the system then you can be damn sure that some benefit fraud investigator would be doing the same thing.

So numbers are out Iím afraid, lets move on to facts.

The first thing we need to work out is whether benefit fraud actually exists, the easiest way to do that is to ind someone whoís falsely claiming benefit, we only need one to prove itís existence. Do you know anyone falsely claiming benefits? I do, I know lots but theyíre all UK citizens.

Now here comes the presumption, the UK and US systems arenít dissimilar, the opportunity for false claims exists in both, given human nature itís reasonable to assume that if benefit fraud occurs in the UK that it also exists in the US. Fortunately we can eliminate this presumption, we can turn the existence of benefit fraud into a hard fact. All it takes is one person to admit that they know at least one person that is fraudulently claiming benefits.

Does anyone know anyone in the US who is self-unemployed?

Grinch
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56 posted 11-10-2008 09:49 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Itís not rambling Mike or if it is itís useful rambling in that at least I get a clearer understanding of your position.

Your position is not a million miles away from mine - we differ when it comes to taxing businesses but I think thatís a simple disagreement of what a business is rather than a fundamental sticking point.

Where there is some confusion is when you say youíre in favour of progressive tax but against paying more tax the more you earn. I see that as the essence of progressive tax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax

Can you clarify? Are you in favour of the amount of tax you pay increasing based on the amount you earn?

BTW - The self-unemployed are the folks who could work but choose to live off the generosity of the state instead. I should point out that this doesnít include anyone unable to work and my definition of unable is fairly broad, if a mother wants to stay home to raise her family and kids in my book that makes them unable to work. Mother and housewife are legitimate job descriptions.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (11-11-2008 11:18 AM).]

Sunshine
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57 posted 11-10-2008 11:24 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
Since then the image of America has been slowly eroded and itís name tarnished. I like Americans, I like America what I donít like is that America could be so much more and, in my opinion, is throwing away the opportunity.


Thank you, Grinch. We agree.
Denise
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58 posted 11-10-2008 12:15 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hi Vicky,

It is not my intent to insult or tear down anybody. It is a well known fact that "dumbing down" in our educational institutions has been going on for a very long time, particularly in the government funded and controlled public schools. If we aren't taught the basic facts of history then we can't make informed decisions. If children had been taught that FDR's & Carter's policies were so devastating to our economy, they would never elect someone who espouses similar or even more far reaching policies, when they become of age to vote. Here is a link that may be helpful. There are many more on the internet that you can find.
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

And as I expressed earlier I can't "come together" with others in support of Obama's stated agenda. That wouldn't be for the common good, in my opinion. So I will just have to agree to disagree with them.



vlraynes
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since 07-25-2000
Posts 9136
Somewhere... out there...


59 posted 11-10-2008 12:45 PM       View Profile for vlraynes   Email vlraynes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit vlraynes's Home Page   View IP for vlraynes

Hi Denise...
thank you for acknowledging my comments...

as I said before, I wasn't intending to point fingers or offend,
and if I've done so, I sincerely apologize...

I do respect your opinions and your right to have them...

That, I suppose, was ultimately my point... that we ALL are (or should be)
entitled to our opinions/beliefs, and to have said opinions/beliefs
without fear of being condemned for them...

To put it simply?...
I just keep going back to the idea of...

'why can't we all just get along?'

I'm not suggesting that Obama (or anyone else) is 'right',
nor did I mean to suggest that his policies (or anyone else's)
will necessarily lead to the 'common good'...

the 'common good' that I was alluding to is...

PEACE

That's all... nothing more...
just peace...

I'm simple like that...    

"When the power of love overcomes the love
of power the world will know peace."
--Jimi Hendrix
oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


60 posted 11-10-2008 01:53 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Deer--  Jesus would be a registered Unique.

Grinch, You're teasing, right?  I know one person who is currently engaging in outright public housing government health fraud, and public assistance.  Does that mean there is only one such person in America, and she lives in Los Angeles? Ah, not necessarily.

Having lived in public housing for years, I also know about 200 people who were not committing fraud.  Does that make the number fraudsters one in two hundred? Ah. no.

Maybe my computer is having a bad google day, but when I entered queries "American's convicted of Social Security fraud I found 22 people on the first ASK page and no statistical source at all on the first three pages.  

It makes me think nobody knows the numbers, or its not that big a deal, or I asked the wrong question.  

There will always be an England, part two:

antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1211086332... antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1211086332/7

Just what the world needs, thought police.

Best Jimbeaux  
Grinch
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61 posted 11-10-2008 01:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If children had been taught that FDR's & Carter's policies were so devastating to our economy


Denise,

I'm really confused. In England FDR is considered one of the greatest American Presidents by historians, personally Iíd say he was the greatest American President. Until now.

Can you explain in simple terms why his policies were so devastating and what you think he should have done differently in 1933.


Grinch
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62 posted 11-10-2008 02:17 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Jim,

You found 22 people whoíve been convicted of Social Security fraud, what does that tell us? Well it tells us Social Security fraud exists, so perhaps my presumption has been vindicated. Unfortunately, as youíve pointed out, it doesnít tell us how prevalent it is.

There is a way to do that though, if the rules surrounding Social Security were  changed to reduce the possibility of fraud the amount of money saved will tell us how rife false claims were.

Take those able-bodied self-unemployed who sign a statement that they are actively seeking work but somehow manage to avoid getting a job. Why canít we take them at their word and find them a job, instead of paying them to do nothing, letís pay them for doing something. How about 40 hours of hard graft in the community in return for their unemployment benefit? That doesnít sound unreasonable. Of course those people who are claiming benefit and working for cash will be a bit snookered, I suppose theyíd have to decide whether to stop claiming or to give up the cash work.

rwood
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since 02-29-2000
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63 posted 11-10-2008 04:44 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

"Does anyone know anyone in the US who is self-unemployed?"

Deadbeat parents might fit that description. the ones that hide and live off others or work under the table to avoid paying child support.

and there are a few perpetual students with no intent of becoming employed. Which that one is hard to knock, since many are "almost" a doctor or almost a lawyer, veterinarian, nurse, engineer, or all of them and just haven't decided....yet.


when there's a system, there will be some abuse.
Denise
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64 posted 11-10-2008 08:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

His intentions may have been good, Grinch, but the results of his New Deal were devastating.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357
Sunshine
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65 posted 11-10-2008 10:32 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
FDR might not have intended to harm millions of poor people, but that's what happened. We should evaluate government policies according to their actual consequences, not their good intentions.

Denise, I always felt his heart was in the right place, but the economic situation at the time was such that everything to grow the economy did in fact fall upon those already "lost" in economy. Yet, the rich seemed to prosper, if I remember correctly. I could be wrong.

rwood recently posted a note in one of the forums about a man who hid his "depression-era" monies...and one has to wonder "why"?

I know that lately a lot of folk I've talked to have wanted to go ahead and devalue their 401K's that the government talked us into delving our savings; "do so at your own risk" is the sound I'm hearing now. Wasn't this essentially building our own life-supporting social security system? We would be highly taxed were we to take it out for whatever reason; higher taxes, I believe, than what is normally allowed were we to cafeteriaed it out like we do our insurances now.

We have our friends in England, Australia, all around the world who deal with issues such as we do.

It would be highly interesting to see how they deal with their financial interests; and how they intend to not "beat" the system, but how indeed they deal with their own economics.

Balladeer
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66 posted 11-10-2008 10:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, I would say that your historians need to do a little research before coming up with such results. The fact that they didn't is not favorable to them..If I had to guess, I would guess they come up with that supposition based on WW II and his friendship and cooperation with Winston Churchill. FDR was president when the Americans came to a war-torn England's aid. I suppose i would call him my favorite president, too, in such a case. As far as the other aspects of his presidency...

He was one of America's most controversial leaders. Conservatives claimed that he undermined states' rights and individual liberty. Leftists found him timid and conventional in attacking the Depression. Others thought him devious and inconsistent and uninformed about economics. Some of these claims were well founded. Though Roosevelt labored hard to end the Depression, he had limited success. It was not until 1939 and 1940, with the onset of heavy defense spending before World War II, that prosperity returned. Roosevelt also displayed limitations in his handling of foreign policy. In the 1930's he was slow to warn against the menace of fascism, and during the war he relied too heavily on his charm and personality in the conduct of diplomacy. http://www.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_roosevelt.html

What would Denise, or I, or anyone have done differently? I can't say. The country was in the midst of the greatest depression we had known. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback but it's different to be there in real-time. You mention that FDR must have been evil, then. That statement is invalid. Had he sat at his desk and said, "Let's figure out a way to keep the depression going for another seven years so people suffer more", then he would have been evil. I don't believe that of him. I believe he tried to what he felt was in the best interest of the country. Being a Democrat, he felt the answer lie in raising taxes, which he did (almost triple). What effect did this have? To quote from Denise's link.....

Excise taxes, personal income taxes, inheritance taxes, corporate income taxes, holding company taxes and so-called "excess profits" taxes all went up.

New Deal taxes were major job destroyers during the 1930s, prolonging unemployment that averaged 17%. Higher business taxes meant that employers had less money for growth and jobs. Social Security excise taxes on payrolls made it more expensive for employers to hire people, which discouraged hiring.

What about the good supposedly done by New Deal spending programs? These didn't increase the number of jobs in the economy, because the money spent on New Deal projects came from taxpayers who consequently had less money to spend on food, coats, cars, books and other things that would have stimulated the economy.


Higher business taxes - employers with less money for growth and jobs - taxpayers with less money to spend on things that would have stimulated the economy.......does any of this ring a bell with anything on the horizon today, Grinch? Obama would do well to study the effects of the New Deal before implementing some of the same ideas.

FDR was not evil...he was simply a Democrat, doing what Democrats do in moments of crisis - raise taxes. Obama is headed down the same road and with a good chance of achieving similar results.

rwood
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67 posted 11-11-2008 08:05 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

How could any man leading our country right now be able to reduce the seemingly infinite amount of debt accrued/accruing without raising taxes?

Our financial system isn't contained to the U.S. We have a global system, and there's a domino effect going on from Podunk Avenue to Wall Street to Pakistan, "across the globe and back again."

And they all want in on the bailout.

Who didn't expect that one?

"Cash-strapped Pakistan."

Do we want Russia to write them a check??

Needy Global Banks

They employ tens of thousands of Americans.

And Germany?

quote:
Germans assail regulation

German officials are squarely blaming the financial crisis on the lack of international market regulation, Reuters reported from Berlin.

The German finance minister, Peer SteinbrŁck, said Sunday that there should be greater international regulation of markets in the wake of the turmoil this month. He floated the possibility of an international authority "that will make the traffic rules for financial markets."

On Saturday, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, indirectly criticized the United States and Britain for thwarting her government's efforts to tighten controls on markets and hedge funds. Page 2: same link above.


Snarky? or Smart?

The rest of the Globe is pointing at us as the Americans. Take it or leave it. No matter what party hat one is wearing.

Grinch
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68 posted 11-11-2008 08:25 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

quote:
What would Denise, or I, or anyone have done differently? I can't say. The country was in the midst of the greatest depression we had known. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback but it's different to be there in real-time.


FDR halted a depression that was on a downwards course that would have destroyed America, he put into place policies that not only averted the impending catastrophe but steadily grew the economy from 1933. Years later a couple of Monday morning economists, using the same calculators that were used to bring about the latest economic fiasco, complained that the recovery wasnít quick enough. They donít offer an alternative mind you, in that sense theyíre like the amputee who blames the surgeon for the loss of his leg instead of thanking him for saving his life.

BTW, FDR isnít seen as the greatest president over here for his part in WWII, he actually gets points deducted by most British historians for not entering the war quickly enough.

quote:
FDR was not evil...he was simply a Democrat


In my opinion FDR was the greatest president America has ever had, if heíd have been Republican and achieved the same things that would still be my opinion.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Balladeer
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69 posted 11-11-2008 08:53 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

FDR halted a depression that was on a downwards course that would have destroyed America,

Do you have a link for that, Mr. Grinch, or is that an opinion? America is not so easily destroyed.

Years later a couple of Monday morning economists, using the same calculators that were used to bring about the latest economic fiasco, complained that the recovery wasnít quick enough.
In my opinion FDR was the greatest president America has ever had


Fine by me, grinch. I'm not going to try to change your mind with facts, figures or anything else because it is apparent you will disregard any that would contradict the opinion you have. That's fine by me. Enjoy your day
Grinch
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70 posted 11-11-2008 09:34 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

Itís my opinion based on the available facts.



Real Gross National Product (GNP) (1)

1929 - 101.4
1931 - 84.3
1933 - 68.3
1937 - 103.9
1938 - 96.7
1940 - 113.0

Consumer Price Index

1929 - 122.5
1931 - 108.7
1933 - 92.4
1937 - 102.7
1938 - 99.4
1940 - 100.2

Index of Industrial Production

1929 - 109
1931 - 75
1933 - 69
1937 - 112
1938 - 89
1940 - 126

Money Supply M2 ($ billions)

1929 - 46.6
1931 - 42.7
1933 - 32.2
1937 - 45.7
1938 - 49.3
1940 - 55.2

Exports ($ billions)

1929 - 5.24
1931 - 2.42
1933 - 1.67
1937 - 3.35
1938 - 3.18
1940 - 4.02

Unemployment (% of civilian work force)

1929 - 3.1
1931 - 16.1
1933 - 25.2
1937 - 13.8
1938 - 16.5
1940 - 13.9

Balladeer
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71 posted 11-11-2008 09:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The available facts that you feel support your claim, yes. I'll be happy to go through those charts when I have more time, although you could see in them exactly what I do, if you chose.

Facts like most of his New Deal being shot down by the courts as being uncnstitutional/illegal have no place in your thinking, I assume, but then, whatever works, works i suppose. Hmmm...why does Bush's surveillance program come to mind?
Grinch
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72 posted 11-11-2008 11:10 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Facts like most of his New Deal being shot down by the courts as being uncnstitutional/illegal have no place in your thinking, I assume


Actually the actions of the courts are very relevant and have to be taken into account when looking at the recovery from the depression. I donít mind discussing them if you like, what about the supreme court decision that scuppered FDRís national recovery administration (NRA), the centrepiece of FDRís policies.

It became known as the Sick Chicken Case - for reasons that will become obvious.

Hereís a quick overview:

During the depression high unemployment led to businesses lowering the wages and the conditions of workers along with the standards surrounding the goods they supplied. Lower wages acted to further suppress the economy so the government passed the National Industrial Recovery Act. Under this act businesses in all areas were asked to write a code under which they were willing to work that laid out certain standards. The code was presented to government and if accepted was entered into law.

One such code was formulated by the live poultry suppliers of New York and was passed to become the Live Poultry Code. Along with other things it contained an agreed minimum wage, an agreement on maximum working hours and a provision against selling unfit poultry.

In July 1934 the Schechter Poultry Corporation were found guilty of 60 charges including breaching the code with regard to the minimum wage, maximum working hours and the sale of unfit poultry. They were given leave to argue their case in the supreme court where they argued that because they were conducting interstate business and not business between states the Federal Government had no jurisdiction and that the code was un-constitutional. The Supreme Court overturned the charges based on that fact and declared that the National Industrial Recovery Act was indeed unconstitutional.

What do you think Mike? Were the Supreme Court right?

[This message has been edited by Grinch (11-11-2008 11:41 AM).]

Balladeer
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73 posted 11-11-2008 03:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, this entire FDR detour is of your making, not mine. I don't really have that much time or desire to continuing debating it. Whatever I come up with, you are going to negate or claim irrevalent so what's the purpose? If you google FDR and the New Deal you will come up with a plethora of web sites that will bear out what I have said. You instead prefer to reduce them down to a couple of Monday morning quarterbacks....fine with me. You prefer to call FDR the greatest president we have had. That's fine with me, too. After all, there were many people who considered Charles Manson God.

Far be it from me to argue with British historians...or you. Your mind is made up and, if you are happy with it, then so am I
Ron
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74 posted 11-11-2008 06:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Seems to me, Mike, it's not really about FDR. I don't have a lot of time, either, and I didn't read absolutely everything at the links you and Denise posted, but I read enough to know it was just more of the same old taxes-cost-jobs rhetoric we always hear from the Republican party. It could as easily be leveled against any Democrat in office, not just FDR. It could be leveled against a few Read-my-lips Republicans, too.  

Personally, I don't think FDR was the greatest president, but he'd certainly be in my top three. Sure, he made mistakes (the worst being Social Security), but I suspect most were consistent with what was known eighty years ago. He wasn't great because he was perfect, he was great because he was able to offer a nation hope when there wasn't really a lot of hope going around. People believed him, and ultimately history proved they were right to believe him. As an administrator, Roosevelt had many faults. As a leader, he had very few peers.

The first goal of a leader must always be to convince people to follow. It's what we needed then. The recent election results would suggest it's what we need now.


 
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