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Balladeer
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25 posted 11-09-2008 12:52 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Feeling a bit touchy, Jimbeaux? I don't see anywhere in this thread people saying it was all the Democrats fault. It was....but I don't see it here.

Take two valium and call me in the morning.
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26 posted 11-09-2008 06:12 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Redistribution of Wealth? You can call it Marxism, Socialism, Communism, "fair" or "patriotic", but you can't call it "American".


Why not? It’s not as if it hasn’t been used before to stave off an economic depression:

"Primarily this is because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence....The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.”

Does this sound familiar?

What about this?

“Throughout the nation men and women, forgotten in the political philosophy of the Government, look to us here for guidance and for more equitable opportunity to share in the distribution of national wealth… I pledge myself to a new deal for the American people. This is more than a political campaign. It is a call to arms”

Marx? Stalin? Obama?

Actually these are quotes from some guy called Franklin Delano Roosevelt right before he dragged America out of the last great depression.

quote:
Support and respect? Nope, I can't seem to conjure up any.


To quote another great American:

“ I'm often fond of pointing out that the best thing about a democracy is that people inevitably get pretty much what they deserve. This election proved me wrong. In this election, I think the American people are getting much better than they apparently deserve.”

Denise
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27 posted 11-09-2008 09:26 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It has been argued by some economic minds that FDR's New Deal policies prolonged the Great Depression, Grinch.

Whatever great American is the author of your last quote, well, we're all entitled to our opinions. I don't happen to agree.

Balladeer
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28 posted 11-09-2008 10:34 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Shame on you, Denise, disagreeing with a "great American"! Who do you think you are (possibly a great American yourself?)   You are right about FDR, of course, as there are a ton of references and facts showing how FDR did indeed prolong the depression, even if I do have to go against such a great student of American history like Mr. Grinch to point it out.

Redistribution of wealth can have several definitions. Robin Hood was a good distributor of the wealth, robbing from the rich to give to the poor. Of course, he did it because the king was unscrupulous and over-taxed the populace to the point of starvation. Moral would be, don't over-tax the populace, which means Obama does not qualify for the Sherwood Forest Man of the Year award.

Redistribution of wealth can also mean taking form those who have and giving to those who do not. For example, if one child has two toys and another has none, the teacher taking one from the child with two and giving it to the child with none would be a distribution of  wealth. A vagrant banging on you car window demanding your spare change because you have it and he needs it would be a distribution of wealth. (Could that be the "change" Obama refers to?) A robber sticking a gun to your head demanding what you have is exercising a certain distribution of wealth, too. Yes, you say that's illegal...and it is. Interesting that when an individual does it, it's illegal but when the government does it, it's a moral and applaudible thing to do.
Telling people who have worked hard to achieve whatever success they have that they have to give more of it to people who have not worked hard to become anything is a redistribution of wealth. Taking tax revenues from all working American and cutting one thousand dollar checks to everyone, even the 42% of the population that did not pay ANY income tax is also a redistribution of wealth (not to mention a great way to get votes from that 42%).

There is are good forms of distribution of wealth. collecting taxes to build roads, schools, maintain the infrastructure of the country and do the things that are beneficial to all citizens is a good thing. Using distribution of wealth to provide people with the opportunities to better themselves through education and job opportunities is a good thing. Creating more jobs for people to have more ways to earn a living and provide for their families is also a good way to go.

If the latter is Obama's plan, that's a good thing. If the taking from the rich to give to the poor is his plan (as evidenced by his passing out of checks) then it's not.

He wants a heavier tax on the corporations, which hire people. He wants to lower unemployment. How over-taxing the people who provide jobs, to the point there will be lay-offs, will lower unemployment is beyond my imagination. When companies declared they may move their companies overseas due to the tax increases, Obama proclaimed there will be tax relief for the companies that stay in the country. I haven't figured that one out yet.

In short, there are many methods of redistribution of wealth. Whichever plan Obama chooses to follow will dictate whether or not we move to a socialistic form of government. i wish he would take the time to realize just how generous Americans really are. The entire world know it, but our government seems to ignore it. There is a good chance the child with the three toys would give one to the child with none, practicing the distribution of wealth, and feeling good about it. Corporations give millions to agencies to help the poor. People reach into their pockets and give millions of agencies like the Salvation Army, Food for the Needy, outreach centers, and other related agencies to give relief to the poor...and they don't do it by government mandate. (Don't count in Joe Biden, who gave 3,000 over a ten year period to charities while making millions or Al Gore who, when faced with the fact he gave almost nothing to charities, claimed that he "gave his time".) Starving people are still trying to decide which tastes better with "time", mustard or mayonnaise.

Most people are very generous in their giving. Forcing them to be generous has an adverse effect.

How Obama handles it will measure his success and I will wait to see how he does. If he does it the right way I'll be the first to applaud. It's up to him now.

Grinch
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29 posted 11-09-2008 11:16 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You‘ll have to excuse me for my ignorance Mike, the only mitigating circumstance I can offer is that I‘m English - I‘ll gladly defer to your greater knowledge of American history and accept that FDR was a useless President who’s policies prolonged the depression.

These two economists seem to add weight to your assertion.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx?RelNum=5409

Balladeer
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30 posted 11-09-2008 04:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Oh, I forgot.  It's all Obama's fault.  Or his fellow travelers.
Yeesh, if we just concede now that it's all the Democrat's fault, can we possibly get on to something else?


and accept that FDR was a useless President who’s policies prolonged the depression.



Wow...very interesting replies, gentlemen, one could almost say on the edge of defensiveness.


"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years."

That "proof in the pudding" sure does get around....

Denise
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31 posted 11-09-2008 04:32 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Perhaps if more of the younger people had been schooled properly in FDR policies and even Jimmy Carter policies (do you think any of them learned that under Carter home mortgage rates topped out at over 20%, and the unemployment rate was in the double digits?) they wouldn't have fallen for the great Pied Piper that they just helped to vote into office.

I guess in addition to bribing the poor (which will help to keep them poor and will make even more people poor in the bargain and more loyal future voters!), dumbing down America hasn't hurt the Democrats at all, Michael.

And I'd wager that when the economy REALLY goes into the toilet, reminiscent of FDR or Carter, it will be all Bush's fault. That's all we will hear from them for either the next 4 or 8 years.
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32 posted 11-09-2008 04:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, Obama stated that, on his website which lists his plans, thoughts, policies, etc, the one topic commented on more than any of the others was - what kind of dog will he get?

America needs no help in dumbing down...it is already there  
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33 posted 11-09-2008 04:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Imagine that, Mike. And with all those issues I listed in my previous post as reasons why I can't support or respect him, issues that came straight from his site or from his campaign speeches. Dumbed down indeed. It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. And it's not like he didn't spell it all out for them. But all they cared about was that he was young, black, and eurocentric, a citizen of the world!

Well, I'm sure they will feel important if they think they have any input into the pooch that is selected for Sasha and Malia.
Grinch
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34 posted 11-09-2008 04:54 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
one could almost say on the edge of defensiveness


Err.. I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be defending Mike, can you give me a clue?

Is it my claim that a redistribution of wealth was the cornerstone of American policy under FDR and beyond and not as un-American as Denise made out?

I thought I’d won that one.


Balladeer
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35 posted 11-09-2008 05:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Err.. I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be defending Mike, can you give me a clue?

Actually, I can't, grinch. You made the comment that FDR dragged us out of the last great depression, Denise responded that, in reality, he prolonged to depression, which caused you to respond with FDR being a useless president, then. That's a defensive statement and I don't know what you are trying to defend, either. It's almost like a husband saying, "How do I look, dear?" and his wife responding "Your tie is crooked" which causes hime to say, "Fine. I suppose I'm just a useless individual who doesn't deserve to live!" The why to your reaction is beyond me.

There was no claim that FDR was a useless president at all and there was no reason for you to interject that comment that I can see, except that her facts refuted your claims. Did that cause defensiveness? I don't know.


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36 posted 11-09-2008 05:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Is it my claim that a redistribution of wealth was the cornerstone of American policy under FDR and beyond and not as un-American as Denise made out?

It was the cornerstone of FDR policy, to be sure, that does not make is automatically American policy. Roosevelt also instituted the Japanese interrment camps in the US. That was not American policy, either...it was his. Many of his New Deal policies were subsequently declared illegal and discontinued.

"During all of 1933, 4,004 small local banks were permanently closed and were merged into larger banks. (Their depositors eventually received 85 cents on the dollar of their deposits.) Anti-New Deal economists Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz[15] said, "The 'cure' came close to being worse than the disease." To avoid future "cures" the Congress created the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) in June, which insured deposits for up to $5,000. The establishment of the FDIC virtually ended the era of "runs" on banks."
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37 posted 11-09-2008 07:09 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Mike,

I was under the, apparently misguided, impression that FDR was a great President, that the American economy was at it’s lowest point when he was inaugurated and steadily grew throughout his three terms (apart from the glitch in 1937).

Both you and Denise have suggested that my assessment was wrong, that FDR, through presumably flawed economic management, actually suppressed the recovery, if you’re right I’d say that makes him a pretty useless president.

In any case I conceded that point, I wasn‘t defending it, I deferred to your understanding of American history, mainly because it doesn’t affect my original argument - that the redistribution of wealth is, historically, as American as apple pie.

I don’t mind defending that assertion as it’s a matter of historical record - FDR supported a redistribution of wealth and his policies, however flawed you believe them to be, were built around that idea.

Balladeer
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38 posted 11-09-2008 07:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Understood, grinch.

As far as redistribution of wealth is concerned, I refer you to my post #28 of this thread,which you may have missed.

There are many forms of wealth distribution, some good, some bad. We will wait and see which path Mr. Obama chooses.
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39 posted 11-09-2008 07:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wouldn't exactly call the idea of redistribution of wealth as American as apple pie, Grinch, just because we have had some past leaders who practiced it to some extent. They were definitely the exception to the rule.

Now all this talk of pudding and pie is making me very, very hungry!  
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40 posted 11-09-2008 07:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I’ve read it Mike, you’ve said a similar thing a few times recently, but to tell you the truth it’s such a sweeping subject I wasn’t sure where to start so I avoided commenting.

I don’t mind chewing the fat with you regarding the whole redistribution of wealth question but to do that we need to cut it down a bit.

My guess is that in essence you’re against a progressive tax where the proceeds go towards supporting the self-unemployed.

Would that be the issue in a nutshell?

That’s not a trick question by the way, it’s something I’m uncomfortable with too.

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41 posted 11-09-2008 08:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My guess is that in essence you’re against a progressive tax where the proceeds go towards supporting the self-unemployed.

Excellent question, Grinch, and that involves a lot of thought. I'll have to get back to you on this one....

oceanvu2
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42 posted 11-09-2008 08:55 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Mike, re the immediate above:  rational comment!

Grinch:  American politics have always been based on hatred of the "other," whomever the "other" might be in anyone's mind at any time.  It's not a rational process.  

Shortly after getting behind GW -- George Washington, that is -- politics became a struggle for power, and unfortunately, often personal power.  Of the founding fathers, at least half of them thought the other half of them were idiots, a situation which has not changed significantly.  

I'm trying to remember my history to justify this statement, but about all I can come up with is that, uh, Civil War thingy, where more American citizens died than in any other war, by killing each other over some kind of issue which had something to do with something about defining core American values or something like that which EVERY MAJOR EU AND MOST OTHER WORLDWIDE NEWSPAPERS LAUDED FOR ITS REAFIRMATION ON THEIR FRONT PAGES FOLLOWING OBAMA'S ELECTTION.

Of course, I can only recall the thirty or so pictures of the front pages shown here on the by our outrageously left wing major television networks. I know it's asking a lot, but you seem to be closer to the international scene than I am, but perhaps you can find time to help us with 3 or 4 hundred front page images from around the world?

Sometimes, the subtlty of some posts is lost on me, too.  I don't know how one gets around that.  It may have something to do with the nature of the audience/speaker relationship, but perhaps that's a question for a different forum.  Or universe.

Mike --  I'm not defensive about anything.  I do get a little disheartened now and then by the absolute ignorance of American History -- not yours or any one else's on Pip's -- but I'm astonished to find how many of my casual acquaintances have never bothered to actually read things like The Preamble to the Constitution, let alone The Constitution, or Heaven forbid, the Federalist Papers, or the Reader's Digest version the papers of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, let alone the wiki notes on Alexis deToqueville's European take on America.  

I admit that I cannot recite all 20,000 give-or-take pages of the documents and discourse that formed America, the Nation's, core values.

Perhaps I'm a victim of deficiencies in the educational system, or just have a personal information retention problem. I'm hoping other's might step in to help me out here.

Your-friendly-leftist-socialist-commune-living-income-pooling-poverty-redistributing-tax-the-rich-because-they-have-the-money-commie-and-part-time-satirist, Jimbeaux     
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43 posted 11-09-2008 09:12 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Mike, he says, ragging on, who are the purposefully self-unemployed?  How is it determined that one is out of a job because one chooses to be out of a job.  What percentage of the population does this constitute?  Do any other factors enter into unemploment beyond choice?

I do think you will think about this, because you have demonstrated your conscientiousness in this way.  I really, really, don't think your making the "welfare queen or king" argument.  I posted the statistics on that baloney in the Alley, which nobody bothered to challenge.  Or even respond to.

So I'm wondering whom these self unemployed you refer to.  And I suspect you will tell us, because you are good at that!

Best, Jimbeaux
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44 posted 11-09-2008 09:31 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Oh Jim, by the way, it's Pelosi who is furiously working to bail out the auto industry, not George (the lame duck) Bush. Let's give credit where credit is due!
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45 posted 11-09-2008 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Right you are, Jim. I AM thinking about that and, yes, there are many other factors that enter in. Several of my Nam buddies enter in to that statistic.

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46 posted 11-09-2008 09:54 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Jim,

Actually I’m guilty for introducing the term “self-unemployed”.

It’s a label proudly worn by quite a few of my fellow countrymen and, I presume, quite a few of yours. The term isn’t, I assure you, derogatory, they’ll proudly introduce themselves as such if you bump into them propping up a bar and ask them what they do for a living. The derogatory term for them over here is scrounger, though even that is gaining popular support as a badge of honour among their own ranks.

They’re essentially able-bodied citizens for whom work is a four letter word to be avoided at all costs, instead they rely solely on government handouts. Females of the species are generally perennially pregnant presumably to augment their income with additional child benefits, they're equally work shy and particularly adept at projectile vomiting.

There is yet another member of this species that are not work averse, these specimens claim the same benefits while undertaking casual employment on a cash only basis to avoid the inconvenience of such irritants as tax and national insurance.

Another group have discovered the joys of Sickness Benefits whereby you gain extra allowance by convincing a GP that your back has the consistency of overcooked spaghetti or that your work flask is terminally broken.

Putting an exact number on them is difficult, not helped by the Government who seem to add and remove them from official figures by changing their status. One minute they’re claiming unemployment benefit, the next they’re on jobseekers allowance before being shunted off on a Back to Work course for an hour on Tuesday to bolster  the part-time student ranks. Presumably they're presented with a national certificate in self-unemployment at some point.

Give them a fish and they’ll feed themselves for a day, give them a fishing rod and it’ll be on e-bay within the hour.

The self-unemployed - god bless their little cotton socks.


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47 posted 11-09-2008 10:23 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

As I have been reading through this dialogue of some very interesting and insightful viewpoints, one thought came streaming through over and over, past decades, past alliances, past innuendos and most certainly past differing governing societies:

"As goes Rome, so goes the the World".

Rome was a power, a strength, an enlightenment and a system that became a ruthlessness.

I would hate to think that America has become ruthless.

But that was the stream of consciousness that continued to come through in this thread. If Americans do not stand up for equality [and it seems that we have] but submit to a failure [and it seems that we might] than we are certainly doomed. What then prevails? What do the other "world leaders" have in mind?

Grinch, I have always respected your thoughts, but I have oft'times disagreed with your philosophies. I would politely ask you, Sir; is the UK ready to take leadership again?

After all, most of America has European genetics to some degree. Yet you yourself seem at times eager to say or imply that America is failing, and I always seem to sense some glee in your remarks. Keeping in mind that I have not had the time nor leisure to read all of everyone's comments to every thread here in the discussion area of a site built upon the shoulders on a valued American entrepreneur, as I am a 56 year old working woman who is trying to maintain a lifestyle to which I have reluctantly become acquainted with [read: doing better than my folks did] I do wonder why you wish to sling what some would call mud on America's decisions?

What do you fear?

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48 posted 11-09-2008 10:46 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Denise:  Oh, thank goodness it is only Pelosi.  Should a bailout bill come to pass, I know we can count on GWB to veto it.
We still have heroes!

Grinch:  There will always be an England.

Sunshine: Re: "I would hate to think that America has become ruthless."  Me too!  On an economic level, we don't seem to be particulary good at it, too many houses of cards collapsing at the moment.  On a humane level, the world looks to us.  This is good!

Best, Jimbeaux
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49 posted 11-09-2008 11:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch..

I am not against a progressive tax but I am opposed to an unfair one. The United States has one of the two highest corporate tax rates in the world. I am against that. I am also against people being punished for being successful or working hard. It has always seemed to be fashionable to speak out against the rich companies or businessmen. Michael Jackson could make 100 million by recording songs in between molesting kids and no one minded. Alex Rodriguez can knock down 20 million a year by hitting a fast ball over the fence and everyone is ok with that. Let a company show a nice profit and they are evil, greedy capitalists. Go figure. These companies are the entities that hire people, millions of people and yet, when it comes time to raise taxes or create a villain, that's who they go after. I am against that.

I have nothing against an individual progressive tax, as long as it's fair. I have nothing against part of it going to the unemployed. I;m not sure what you mean by "self-unemployed", unless you mean those unemployed simply because they don't want to work. Nor am I sure what you mean by "supporting". Is there anything wrong with unemployment checks or food stamps? No, I support those programs as  a temporary fix and, not only is it a moral thing to do, it also helps to prevent crime that would rise out of the desperation of being unable to feed one's family with no help. I also believe in agencies that help the homeless and the unemployed. I believe in agencies that help them learn a trade or find work. I give classes at the Broward Outreach Center, which is an excellent organization. Homeless people are taken in and given food and shelter....but only for six weeks. During that time they are required to take classes every day, calsses pertaining to a variety of subjects dealing with handling life, building self-esteem, kicking a drug habit or finding work. If they do not attend the classes, they have to leave. It is an organization to help people help themselves. I believe in these organizations and ones like them. I believe  in programs that help people retrain to find work and programs that help the mentally ill. I have no problem with the use of my taxes going to these programs, although many of them are supported by donations.

What do I object to? I object to someone telling me that, since I have more than that person, I have to give him some of mine. I object to someone telling me that, with the harder that I work and the more time and effort I put into being able to provide more for my family, the more I have to give to people that are not working or putting effort into bettering their own lives. I object to the receiptents of my taxes screaming that I owe them simply because I have more than they do. I am a giving person and do not hesitate to help those I consider deserving whenever I can but I rebel at being told I am obligated to, especially by law. I know this is rambling and I'm not sure if it answers your question or not....just trying to put my thoughts down.

What I have reservations concerning Obama with respect to this topic is two-fold. First he IS going after the big companies, the ones that provide livelihood to thousands and thousands of people. I think that is wrong. I think it will lead to some companies moving their companies to other countries, which will result in more unemployment, not less. It will reduce the money these companies have been paying into the government. Ireland right now is in it's heyday because, as the country having the lowest corporate taxes there are, global companies moving there are creating fabulous results for the Irish economy. Also, when you raise taxes on large companies, they simply raise the prices of their products or services, which ultimately affects the buyers of those products, namely you and me.

Second, although Obama claims that there will not be a tax increase for the middle class, it is generally recognized that implementing all of the things he has promised to implement would be impossible WITHOUT increasing taxes on the middle class. He sets the cut-off at $250,000.00 but in Congress he has voted for tax increases for everyone making over $42,000.00. I simply don't believe him.

He has the opportunity to prove me wrong.
 
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