How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Five Thousand Dollars for Healthcare?   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Five Thousand Dollars for Healthcare?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


0 posted 10-08-2008 02:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

At the risk of giving some of you migraines, I need someone to explain to me, and again, talk to me like I'm five years old--

how is five thousand dollars going to help me and my family provide healthcare for us all?

I know a lot of you folks out there have health issues as well, and so you know--I'm receiving the benefits of a Healthcare plan right now, and I'm astounded and relieved to understand that although the cost of my morphine alone was nearly that amount, it was covered.

I was really happy about this, considering that the cost of "my very good insurance" is more than that of a monthly mortgage.

So...somebody please explain to me how my family can "self-insure", because five thousand dollars doesn't even cover six months of our current plan, even with civil servant benefits!!!

How would this work?
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


1 posted 10-08-2008 03:23 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Y'got me, darlin'! Back in 2001, when my husband underwent brain surgery to have a tumor removed, it was easily a $20,000 deal.

The ripoff that always gets me is that if you have insurance, the insurance company makes the doctor/hospital "reduce" or "cut" some of their bill - but if you or I do not have insurance, we get to pay the whole thing.

Tell me how THAT works? It's never made sense to me whatsoever.
threadbear
Senior Member
since 07-10-2008
Posts 729
Indy


2 posted 10-08-2008 03:31 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

Here's some ammo for your gun, Serenity.

"The federal government tracks average spending on health insurance for people with job-based coverage. The most recent figures are from 2005, and indicate that the average individual's job-based premiums were $3,991 that year, while families spent an average of $10,728." ...sic...($894 mo families & $332 per month for single individuals- 2005 rates)
http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/Individual_Market_Survey_December_2007.pdf
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


3 posted 10-08-2008 03:36 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Hi Karen. McCain's $5000 healthcare tax credit plan might best be described as a bait and switch.

Biden spoke about it in the VP debates. Here's link to that portion of the debate where Biden explains it simply enough so that even I could understand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5wxCkH4PVM
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 03-07-2001
Posts 19652
British Columbia, Canada


4 posted 10-08-2008 03:42 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Karen, nothing is ever free in government, trust me.  I just got in the mail today, a Climate Change Tax Credit! (Like what the hell is that?)  Now let's see, there was the Carbon Tax Credit, the one-time Gas credit, the Going Green Credit, all were minimal amounts.  Oh yes, did I mention we too are right in the middle of an election?  Bait and Switch is putting it mildly!  They truly must think us all morons.  Money buys lots of things, including votes.  It is a case of recipient beware!  SC I have yet to receive a "Bad Hair Day Tax Credit" but when I do, I am going to freak!  

I am still sticking with my first choice both down there, and up here, in the hopes that even 1/2 of what the two of them propose comes into action.

If anything at all comes out of this current climate, I am hoping we all learn to want less, live with less, share more, as in the end it is all "stuff."  

Oh, by the way, I do always send them back their weenie cheques, but must be honest, if one arrived in the thousands, I may have to think about it.

To refresh everyone's memory of that question last night here you go:Obama and McCain On Health Care Question - 2nd Debate
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


5 posted 10-08-2008 03:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well...I told my hubby that it looks like this year we "beat the house."

An odd lottery to win, though.

and here I was bragging on my 35,000 dollar
va-jay-jay, when actually, it's totalling near seventy grand.

Even assuming that private insurers could duplicate that kind of coverage, I'm wondering how long they could stay in business when met with a nation of the likes of me...

I was trying to "rest up" inbetween procedures, and I'm starting to think that might not be wise.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


6 posted 10-08-2008 03:45 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and wow

a lot of you guys responded while I did, so let me have some time to read and follow the links...

and smiling at Jenn--

"bait and switch"

I was thinking that even mentioning that amount of dollars was like waggling baloney on a hook to a big fat catfish...

I've been there, and I AM there, and I do know better. But let me read...

and thanks folks!
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


7 posted 10-08-2008 04:06 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

And Shar, no offense intended, but this was a necessary medical procedure.

My va-jay-jay was killing me.

Literally.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


8 posted 10-08-2008 04:11 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

quote:
my va-jay-jay was killing me. Literally.


Call it karma.

*laughing*

and *winks* to LR.

I have to run, (or walk very fast)

I'll be back though.

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


9 posted 10-08-2008 04:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Hi Karen, go to the McCain website and click on the healthcare link. It explains it in detail. You get to keep your current healthcare plan if you want to, at no extra  cost to you, and I think the tax credit would go to the healthcare provider.
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


10 posted 10-08-2008 05:57 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

The $5000 is not socialized medicine as Obama's plan proposes. It is simply a tax credit that you can get if you buy your own insurance. If supplied by your employer then they can get the credit. All insurance still remains private just as it is today.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


11 posted 10-08-2008 06:16 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

hmmm.

Okay.

But how is this different from Obama's proposition that small businesses get tax deductions in order to provide health care (and thus make them competitive with larger corporations)?

Since New Orleans, where I live was eighty percent small businesses, prior to the Katrina debacle, this particular issue is of great importance to not just me, but my entire economic region.

I appreciate everybody's patience.
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


12 posted 10-08-2008 06:44 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Serenity -- the $5,000 bucks for the cost of health care premiums is, of course, only semi-useful.  It will not pay the annual private comprehensive health care costs of a family of one, let along a family of two, three, or four.  It WILL pay the premiums for family coverage in many instances, if you happen to have the 5K, 10K or whatever on hand, or buy a plan that covers only "catastrophic" events without a deductible.  This isn't hard to figure out.  You poke your numbers and family histories in any health insurer's stie on the web.  You get a quote in return.  My suggestion to anyone is that you sit down.  And my suggestion that a $5,000 tax benefit towards health insurance is MUCH MUCH better than nothing.

The best Medical plans that I am seeing among my friends, which admittedly is a very selective sample, stem from benefits accrued as public employees -- not politicians-- but teachers, social workers, fireman, policemen, and every/anyone who had a career in State or Federal Service.  Hey, this is good!  The trade off for comprehensive health care was the acceptance, in many instances,of a lower wage for value rate than offered in private industry.  A choice which for many people was reasonably factored in and accepted.

In private major industries where employees put in the same number of years of work, retired and current employees run the risk, and experience, cuts in medical benefits all the time,  It's a harsh reality where the employee's contribution to a health care plan go up, while the benefits go down. I don't blame the employers, this is all tough economic stuff.

Though not being bright enough to know how to implement it, I like the notion of "universal health care."   Nobody else seems to have figured out the implementation part either, so I'm not throwing stones in any particular direction.

Best, Jimbeaux

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (10-08-2008 08:26 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


13 posted 10-08-2008 07:51 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Karen,

Just ask yourself one question, do you think what you pay now is reasonable?

As I understand it McCain’s going to give $5000 of tax payers (your) money to a health insurance broker in a sharp suit as long as you give the smart suited chap $5000 of your own money too. In return you get $10000 of health insurance that probably doesn’t cover any pre-existing conditions or anything else they care to squeeze into the small print.

It sounds as if McCain thinks that the price of health insurance is reasonable and I’m sure that the insurance companies all agree.

Obama, on the other hand, is going to legislate that employers purchase health insurance for employees from insurance companies who drop the pre-existing clause and that make their small print BIG and contain reasonable terms. Any company that agrees to participate will get a tax credit to offset the cost and a government backed fund to cover catastrophic illness claims to reduce cost. Any Company that doesn’t participate will have to pay more tax to fund the scheme.

It sounds like Obama thinks that the insurance companies are fleecing their customers and I tend to agree.

What do you think?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


14 posted 10-08-2008 08:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"As I understand it McCain’s going to give $5000 of tax payers (your) money "


And what if to any amount
it is the money of others?

As I understand it
some large percentage
pay no Federal income taxes at all.

.

.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


15 posted 10-08-2008 08:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I tend to be leaning toward that Universal Health Care plan m'self, Jim.

It just makes more sense to support a preventative healthcare by making it available than to fix the end result of...

folks like me.

and I just backspaced a whole bunch of middle class angst.

Those "cushy" civil servant jobs?

sigh

do a pay reference scale, or just live with someone who has worked twenty years on the job, and watches "newbies" being hired at nearly the same pay that the "vets" are making now...

(My husband doesn't know I'm sympathetic.)



Don't tell him. It would change our whole dynamic. *chuckle*

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


16 posted 10-08-2008 08:15 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

and ooops...

while I was typing my frustrated middle class angst, I missed the replies of my beloved Grinch and Huan Yi.

Here's what I'm looking for guys--

I need someone to explain to me in simple housewife budgetry how self-insurance can prevail--I'm not "for" anybody, nor am I promoting an agenda here.

I'm simply not believing McCain, because if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

So I either don't understand it, or it is b.s.

I want someone to help me out here.

Give me a reason to believe.

Because honestly, the tax redistrubtion responsibility by Obama makes sense to me.

McCain's five thousand dollar promotional buzz word sounds like a used car salesman ploy.

(And , don't jump to conclusions--I didn't say who I was 'for'--I'm simply saying that this particular issue is a huge red flag for me.)

I'm kinda wondering if anybody understands, actually.

Um, I don't just want to know what it means--I want to know if it is PRACTICABLE.
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


17 posted 10-08-2008 09:52 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Serenity -- I didn't say civil service jobs were cushy.  In fact, I said the opposite.  A "civil servant" often trades off equal pay for value of service in the private sector for what seem to be, and probably are, more secure and better health benefits than currently available to most workers in the private sector, where such "benifits," which I would calculate as part of a worker's wage, are often not available at all.

If you really want to follow this through, anyone can hit an insurer's website, state that they are a small business owner, and request a no deductible "group insurance" quote for any number of hypothetical employees.  And then you get to gasp.

Now, this doesn't mean that it is impossible for small businesses -- and the definition includes much MUCH larger, but still "small" in government terms organizations than a local Mom and Pop grocery -- to offer such insurance.  It does mean, however, that employees have to kick in their share in terms of either paycheck deductions or acceptance of lower wages.

A Universal Health Care system hardly implies "free" health care.  It would have to be paid for out of taxes.  However, when you multiply the pool of insured to include everyone in the country who pays taxes, the actuarial (accounting term) risk and concommitant costs go down.

Now, it is true that not everyone pays taxes.  Trying to stay relevant, I'll leave out children and the infirm, since most of them couldn't pay taxes even if they wanted to, having no income.  I suspect someone might reasonably ask why universal health care benefits should be extended to our poor and illegal residents.

The answer still lies in the numbers.  Health care ranging from flu shots to major problems is available to anyone through the Emergency Room system.  Emergency Room treatment for anyone, legal, illegal, or just broke, is perhaps the single most expensive form of medical assistance available, and nobody, insurers, hospitals, or care providers makes a dime off of it (exagerating for effect here) because the bills never get paid, and people keep getting sick anyway.

So you look, again, to the numbers.  Even including people who will never pay their medical bills, when the pool is expanded to include everyone, it's still going to be a hell of a lot cheaper for taxpayers than insurance and medical costs are now.  It has to do with dilution of risk.  Grossly, its sort of like this: for every ten people who get sick on a given day, 100,000 people don't  I'm making these numbers up as an understandable example, but the actual stats are out there.  This is where the actuaries come in.

True, idealistic, universal heath care would eliminate all middlemen, including insurers, but I can't see that ever happening in our society, at least not in our lifetimes.  Whom might the government hire to manage such a program?  The insurance companies, of course, just as the government contracts out many programs, including the logistics of running war ones, to private firms which are in business to make money from our taxes.  But maybe that's snarky.

Change of the paradigm could involve a lower overall cost per person.  That would be great.  May or may not work.  Under Universal Health Care, what WOULD change is the part about universal access to healthcare.  

Just maybe, if the label were changed to Universal Health Care Access, we might be able to view the notion in a different light and put some changes into motion.  I don't think there is anybody locked into the position that "If you can't pay, tough.  Drop dead."

Working out the mechanics will not be easy, and the the first steps will probably need to be revised as we go along.

Still, Denmak, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Brunei, Qatar, Fiji, Canada, and England have taken decent stabs at it, and a lot of those people don't even speak American.

Where, one might reasonably ask, would those extra tax dollars come from?  They would come from not having to pay, in California, for example, $1,400 a month to Blue Cross/Blue Shield for a private, all inclusive no-deductible policy for two adults who happened to have gotten sick somewhere along the line.

Yeah, it's tough stuff, but it doesn't necessarily require a degree in quantum accounting to grasp the concept.


Best, Jimbeaux

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (10-08-2008 10:50 PM).]

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


18 posted 10-08-2008 10:32 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The government doesn't seem, to me, to have too good a track record of managing anything. I'd opt to keep it private, open up the competition between the different providers in whatever way possible, which hopefully would bring down prices a bit, and to look into ways to prevent these providers from not providing the care that we were led to believe that we would get.

Just ask our friends who have socialized medicine in their countries about the level of care that they experience, and care that they have even have access to for certain conditions and in certain circumstances. And if you think you wait long now in the doctor's office or emergency room, by comparison to those with socialized programs, I'd say we are very lucky.
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Caelestus
since 06-25-99
Posts 67715
Listening to every heart


19 posted 10-08-2008 10:39 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Most likely everyone here is literate to what is called "cafeteria plans". That's where they take out all of the extras like insurance BEFORE you are taxed, making your taxes a little less on the take-home pay.

Karen,

There are no sure and swift answers.

What there needs to be, m'friend, is a quick kick-OUT of those who are living off the system, and that would mean, most of all of our government officials who tell us they are running this country in our best interests.

They became uninterested a long time ago.


serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


20 posted 10-08-2008 10:48 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Jim.

I do feel a bit better now.

I wasn't aware of how much I was aware of until you pointed it out to me. (seriously)

But I tell ya whut, let me run this by the coffee clutch tomorrow...

I'll let you know if it translates into "American."

Best?

Let's just try for better.

Karen (with a smilie, even )
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


21 posted 10-08-2008 11:44 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Denise: RE: "The government doesn't seem, to me, to have too good a track record of managing anything."

I really want to agree with that!

On the other hand, the "government" is not an abstract entity. It is us.  We, the American people, so to speak, don't seem to have an umblemished record regarding  management either.  Maybe it all just comes with the human territory, Somehow, though, it seems useful to keep plugging away.

Sunshine:  Re: "What there needs to be, m'friend, is a quick kick-OUT of those who are living off the system, and that would mean, most of all of our government officials who tell us they are running this country in our best interests."

I'd like to agree with that completely too, but aren't we all living off the system?  It seems like our murky "system" is what floats all the boats.  No problem with sinking the boats of those who ABUSE the system and letting them swim about for a while in their own muck.  Apparently, that's what's going on in the current economic debacle.  Do we really need to throw out a 700 billion dollar oar to those who can't even remember what the shore looks like?  The "government" (us,) seems to think so.

I agree with you here:  Nobody asked me what I thought about pouring billions down a rat hole.  Anybody ask you?  Anybody ask any one?  

This whole bailout business, which will affect the nation's economy for decades, took place over the course of two weeks.  And this marvelous economic recovery plan caused the market to tank, so far, at a rate not seen since the 20's.

I say thanks guys and gals, Republican and Democrat alike, for leading us to the outhouse without so much as a can of Febreze.

Just yappin', Jimbeaux  


[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (10-09-2008 12:00 AM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


22 posted 10-08-2008 11:56 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*grins*

It's okay.

The coffee clutch isn't talking to me, either.

Um, I have a print out of the voting records of both candidates.

So the village idiot here has been deemed...

*wince*

snooty! For bringing INFORMATION to the table! oh lawsy...

ah well...

I have free Showtime this week.

So whuddicare? *sniff*

*grins*
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


23 posted 10-09-2008 12:32 AM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Dottie:  To which village idiot does your post refer?  (Notice how neatly I did that to stay within the guidelines.)

Or:  "It takes a village to raise an idiot."  Hillary Clinton.

Or:  Every village needs an idiot, that's why we elected (whomever).

Or: Is "village idiot" an official title or an honorary one.

Or:  If we both run for Vllage Idiot, who do you think will win?

My pledge of sincere and never ending love, which might be a better sign-off than "Best." Jimbeaux, up way past my bedtime. Nytol.
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


24 posted 11-21-2008 06:23 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Physicians for a National Health Program

Single-Payer National Health Insurance http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Five Thousand Dollars for Healthcare?   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors