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Balladeer
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150 posted 12-09-2008 07:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Liar is already a given. Criminal has yet to be determined.
oceanvu2
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151 posted 12-09-2008 07:56 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Guys -- I'm finding it funny that the last few times I've tried to post longer responses, I hit a key that kicks me out of Pip.  Maybe the universe is telling me to shut up.

More to the point here, in this anything goes thread, I'd like to tell my friends that wife Deb is in the hospital with pneumonia that is proving hard to treat. Politics and other games aside, I hope you'll send her some good thoughts.  She's a sweetie, and deserves them.

Best, Jimmy

[This message has been edited by oceanvu2 (12-09-2008 08:30 PM).]

Balladeer
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152 posted 12-09-2008 08:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

For sure, Jimmy. My thoughts are with her...
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153 posted 12-09-2008 10:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

My best to your wife, Jim. I'll keep her in my thoughts and prayers.

Actually Jen, some might even call it blasphemy!

The Certification of Live Birth, which is not a Birth Certificate, has been deemed a forgery by some documents experts. The one currently posted on Fight the Smears has white and gray pixels between the letters instead of the green pixels that it should have, indicating manipulation of the document, through cutting and pasting and/or photoshopping. It also has a 2007 Border with a 2008 Stamp and Signature. These change yearly in Hawaii. There were also problems with the first one that was posted on the MoveOn.org site, but I don't remember now what they were. But even so, neither are the Birth Certificate that lists the hospital of birth with a doctor's signature. That's under lock and key in Hawaii, for some reason.

There's also the matter of Sarah Obama, his paternal grandmother, on tape, accompanied by the affidavits of those involved in the phone conversation, the interviewer and the translator, where she states that he was born Kenya, and she was present at the hospital when he was born.

There's also the matter of the Kenyan Ambassador answering in the affirmative during a phone interview from the Mike in the Morning program, when asked if there was going to be a plaque erected at the site of the President-Elect's birthplace in Kenya. He said that the plans were already underway.

There's also the matter of Gov. Richardson referring to Obama as an immigrant during a campaign rally to a group of Hispanics.

There's also the matter of Jerome Corsi being detained at gunpoint by soldiers in Kenya for 9 hours and the government cancelling a planned news conference that Corsi had scheduled to discuss his findings during his investigations into Obama's Kenyan connections and conversations that he had with family members and members of the community about Obama's place of birth.

I don't know how you define credible evidence, but I certainly believe that a number of red flags have been raised to warrant a call for an investigation by one of the controlling authorities and a demand for Obama's original birth certificate to be submitted and verified.

Moonbeam, there are currently 16 lawsuits in 12 States ongoing, most of which will probably arrive at the Supreme Court sooner or later. Two are currently pending for Conference. Maybe they will decline every one that comes their way. We'll just have to wait and see. And relaxation has never been a problem for me!

Obama could end this all right now and make all of us with concerns about his eligibility status look to be the tinfoil-hat conspiracy nuts that the far-left are already calling us (why do they resort to name calling but never address the issues?), or he can continue to pay three law firms to keep things locked up tight for as long as he can. (This is the same guy who sent 30 lawyers to Alaska to delve into every aspect of Palin's life). Either way is fine by me. I just want the truth. It will either come out sooner or later, but it will eventually come out. It always does.


JenniferMaxwell
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154 posted 12-10-2008 02:36 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You forgot one, Denise. When Obama went to Hawaii in October supposedly to visit his dying Grandmother, his real mission was to alter or replace the vault certificate and to make sure that she made no deathbed confession about the ďrealĒ location of his birth, Kenya, Krypton or the same little village in Mexico where Bill Richardson grew up.

Remember to wear the shiny side out!

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155 posted 12-10-2008 06:02 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Rather than resort to mocking, Jen, why not actually comment on the verified specifics that I shared above? They aren't baseless conjecture. They actually happened.
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156 posted 12-10-2008 07:34 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Denise, one of your favorite souces, WND, had forgery experts examine the birth certificate and found it to be authentic. If you don't believe them, I really don't think you're going to believe me so I'd be wasting my time debunking what's already been debunked.


moonbeam
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157 posted 12-10-2008 08:08 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

This from a LAT comment column made me chuckle (despite its fatal flaw):

"George Washington, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson also weren't born in the United States. They were British citizens at birth. Hence Jefferson is disqualified from being President. Thus his Louisiana Purchase was illegal. Which means Louisiana, Arkansas and Missouri are not part of the United States. Therefore neither Harry Truman nor Bill Clinton were US-born. Truman signed the treaties ending World War 2, which means that is invalid and the USA is officially still at war with Germany and Japan.

Conspiracy theories are SO easy!"

After we've done this one can we have a crack at Princess Di and Dodi please.  Such fun.  
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158 posted 12-10-2008 10:57 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Jimmy, I've been catching up on my reading, so please accept my best thoughts and prayers for your wife. I hope she's doing much better now.
Denise
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159 posted 12-10-2008 11:50 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And what's your point, Jen? They also ran articles where experts claimed that it appeared to be a forgery. So go ahead, address the issues and debunk away. Or just keep resorting to mockery because you can't debunk the issues or don't care to.

I guess no one told them that the Founders grandfathered themselves regarding that requirement, Moonbeam.
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160 posted 12-10-2008 12:12 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

The thing is though Denise one wonders, looking back at your comments on this, whether in fact you are at all balanced in your approach, or whether you have effectively mentally tried and condemned your President elect, and therefore will not be satisfied until real life reflects your conviction.  

For instance, if all the present cases are thrown out by the Courts (Supreme Court?) will you then be happy to accept the validity of his election?
Denise
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161 posted 12-10-2008 12:22 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Will I accept the validity of his Presidency without proof of natural born citizenship? No, I won't.

I can accept the fact that he would be the President, but I can't be sure he will have attained it validly without proof, so how can I accept its validity?
moonbeam
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162 posted 12-10-2008 01:34 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Will I accept the validity of his Presidency without proof of natural born citizenship? No, I won't.

I can accept the fact that he would be the President, but I can't be sure he will have attained it validly without proof, so how can I accept its validity?

Sorry Denise, I should have been clearer, what I meant was: if the Courts accept the validity of his Presidency by throwing out the cases, will you?
Grinch
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163 posted 12-10-2008 02:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Denise,

I think you have every right as an American to be concerned that your Constitution might be being circumvented or downright ignored.

However Iím a little suspicious of foreigners masquerading as Americans - there seems to be a lot of it about.

Is there any chance that you could send me a copy of your birth certificate or post it online so I can validate your right to be concerned?

What! - You donít see why you should? But if you donít how can I ever accept your right to be concerned?



quote:
indicating manipulation of the document, through cutting and pasting and/or photoshopping.


Hereís some advice, if you ever find an expert who offers evidence of skulduggery that a seven year old can debunk in a minute flat donít trust anything he says.

The document expert that examined the internet image determined that it had been manipulated by Photoshop and there was evidence of cutting and pasting - way to go Sherlock. Every image on the internet has been cut and pasted at some point and run through some sort of graphics software on the way, thatís not evidence of forgery so why present it as such?

All this comes down to is whether you have any faith in your Constitution. There are processes inherent in it to resolve the question of whether Obama can be President but you canít have it both ways Denise - you canít demand adherence to the parts of the Constitution that you agree with then totally ignore the bits you donĎt like.

If I were Obama I wouldnít present my birth certificate unless or until I was compelled to simply because some Tom, Denise or Harry asked me to. Would you?

Denise
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164 posted 12-10-2008 04:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Supreme Court can simply decline to hear a case, Moonbeam, without comment or judgment. That doesnít mean that they have decided that he is Constitutionally eligible. It means they decided not to get involved, and havenít declared him eligible or ineligible.

Iím not trying to have it both ways Grinch. Iím all for the Constitutional procedures being followed.  But if those in authority take a pass when the issue arrives at their doorstep, thereby giving Obama a pass on the issue, then the issue of his eligibility will never have been addressed or resolved. Procedures can be in place without actually being utilized by those who can utilize them. Weíll have to wait to see if there is one Senator and one Representative who believes an investigation is warranted and who will raise an objection and call for one when they are called upon to ratify the Electoral College vote. If they donít, then they donít believe that it is an issue, or an issue worth raising. It doesnít mean, though, that they have proven his eligibility.

And you must have me confused with a politician if you think I am picking and choosing which part of the Constitution I demand adherence to and which bits I choose to ignore!  

I think the issue of the Certification of Live Birth document on the web site should cause concern when there is a border from one year and a seal and signature from another, and white and gray pixels between the letters when they should be green like the background that the words were supposedly laser printed onto, as they are in other known legitimate documents examined in the same way.

And Iím not asking Obama to show me anything. Iím asking someone, anyone, with the authority to do so, to verify it in light of all the red flags that have cast doubt upon his status.
moonbeam
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165 posted 12-10-2008 04:48 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Geez Denise, you were Clinton's secret advisor when he was evading the Monica questions weren't you? Grinch didn't confuse you with a politician at all, you are more adroit at avoiding questions than most politicians.

I'll try again.

IF the Supreme Court eventually hears a challenge to Obama's natural born status and throws out that challenge (after hearing it in full) will you then accept the validity of his Presidency?
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166 posted 12-10-2008 05:34 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
And Iím not asking Obama to show me anything. Iím asking someone, anyone, with the authority to do so, to verify it in light of all the red flags that have cast doubt upon his status.


Someone with authority?

Here you go Denise, this should put your mind at rest:

Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaiiís Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu.

The Associated Press quoted Chiyome Fukino as saying that both she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.

Honolulu Advertiser, Nov. 1 2008: "This has gotten ridiculous," state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. "There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy." . . . Will this be enough to quiet the doubters? "I hope so," Fukino said. "We need to get some work done."


Alvin Onaka is the authority when it comes to the question of Obamaís citizenship Denise, heís the first, and possibly last person that the Supreme Court would call to verify Obamaís status.

Of course you donít believe him do you. Iíd hazard a guess that there isnít anyone you would believe, seeing doesnít always guarantee believing Denise, whatever anyone says thereíll always be a reason to doubt if you really donít want to believe.

As for one anyone challenging Obama during the electoral college, well, itís not likely to happen unless you can find two politicians willing to commit political suicide, the risks are too high. No Democrat will do it, for obvious reasons, and if a Republican challenges Obamaís status and they turn out to be wrong that would be the end of him and possibly the whole Republican party. TheyĎd be about as popular as Lee Harvey Oswald wearing an Al Qaeda t-shirt while kicking a kitten.

And what would they gain if they challenged him? Biden would certainly be acting President for a few years while Obama fought the decision in court. Heíd be in effect a lame-duck caretaker President and that would almost certainly stifle his ability to lead your country out of the present mire. Thereís no upside to forcing the issue Denise, itís a little bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face, you might be proved right but youíll lose more than you can possibly gain doing it.

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167 posted 12-10-2008 06:15 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Funny thing Grinch, to some people being proved right is more important than living - my mother-in-law for example.  Takes all sorts I guess.
Denise
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168 posted 12-10-2008 08:45 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Associated Press quoted Chiyome Fukino as saying that both she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.

Of course they hold it, Grinch, they didn't reveal any earth-shattering news with that admission! What they didn't do is verify that it says that he was born in Hawaii. That was a bit of a deceptive headline by the AP, Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaiiís Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu because Fukino said no such thing. What she did say was that she and Onaka have verified that the health department holds his original birth certificate.

And what would they gain if they challenged him?

The respect of hundreds of thousands of Americans who take the Constitution seriously.

I'm not trying to avoid questions, Moonbeam. You've refined your question a couple of times, and I am trying, with each revision, to give you my honest answer. If the Supreme Court actually does hear the arguments in the case, and eventually throws it out, it would depend on their reasons for throwing it out. I would accept the eligibilty of Obama if it is actually proven that he is eligible, not just because the Court throws it out.
moonbeam
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169 posted 12-11-2008 03:08 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
If the Supreme Court actually does hear the arguments in the case, and eventually throws it out, it would depend on their reasons for throwing it out. I would accept the eligibilty of Obama if it is actually proven that he is eligible, not just because the Court throws it out.


So in other words if the Supreme Court, having looked at all the evidence presented to them decided that Obama had a valid birth certificate that made him a natural born citizen, you would then accept that he would be a validly appointed President.
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170 posted 12-11-2008 06:14 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Of course I would, Moonbeam, if one of those pieces of evidence presented is an authentic original birth certificate proving that he is a natural born citizen of the U.S.  

But then if that were the scenario, the Court wouldn't have thown out the case, they would have made a finding based on the evidence presented.
moonbeam
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171 posted 12-11-2008 07:49 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

That's what I wanted to hear Denise.

You would actually believe the Supreme Court if they told you: "we have seen the original birth certificate and it's real, and it proves him to be a natural born American."  

It's good to know you will believe someone, I was beginning to wonder
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172 posted 12-11-2008 08:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

IF the Supreme Court eventually hears a challenge to Obama's natural born status and throws out that challenge (after hearing it in full) will you then accept the validity of his Presidency?

This question reminds me why I consider Tom Daschle such a piece of garbage. After Bush defeated Gore amid the "hanging chad" subterfuge, Daschle was on Good Morning America speaking of it being the time for bi-partisanship, etc, etc. He was asked if he considered George Bush to be the president of the United States. This was after all of the recounts, the court rulings and everything was done. Daschle said something like "The courts say he is the president". He was pushed..."Do YOU accept him as the president?" Daschle repeated, "He is the man who will be sworn in." AGAIN he was asked, "Do YOU, sir, accept him as your president?" He would never answer the question but kept giving the same kind of answers. This idiot, on national tv, asking for bi-partisanship, displayed in front of millions of viewers that he was NOT accepting Bush as a valid president, despite the recounts, the investigations and the court rulings. Supreme court decisions obviously don't carry much weight with Democrats like Daschle.
moonbeam
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173 posted 12-11-2008 08:56 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
IF the Supreme Court eventually hears a challenge to Obama's natural born status and throws out that challenge (after hearing it in full) will you then accept the validity of his Presidency?

This question reminds me why I consider Tom Daschle such a piece of garbage. After Bush defeated Gore amid the "hanging chad" subterfuge, Daschle was on Good Morning America speaking of it being the time for bi-partisanship, etc, etc. He was asked if he considered George Bush to be the president of the United States. This was after all of the recounts, the court rulings and everything was done. Daschle said something like "The courts say he is the president". He was pushed..."Do YOU accept him as the president?" Daschle repeated, "He is the man who will be sworn in." AGAIN he was asked, "Do YOU, sir, accept him as your president?" He would never answer the question but kept giving the same kind of answers. This idiot, on national tv, asking for bi-partisanship, displayed in front of millions of viewers that he was NOT accepting Bush as a valid president, despite the recounts, the investigations and the court rulings. Supreme court decisions obviously don't carry much weight with Democrats like Daschle.

I'm not entirely sure what that was intended to demonstrate apart from why you consider Mr Daschle to be "a piece of garbage".  Is that all, or was there more?  For instance:

It may just mean that there are some people who don't respect Supreme Court decisions?
Perhaps the Supreme Court is unreliable?
Or perhaps you were simply point out the obvious, viz, that there are Democrats who are distrustful of the Supreme Court?
Or was it that, as Mr Daschle may be distrustful of the Court, it is ok for Denise to be?

Not sure where you were going with this Balladeer.
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174 posted 12-11-2008 02:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

JIM LEHRER: Do you bear any resentment toward him over how he finally was elected president?

SEN. TOM DASCHLE: No, I donít. I think he did what he had to do, and the Vice President did what he had to do. Obviously, Iím still disappointed with the Supreme Court decision and with the way this all worked out, but I donít question the legitimacy of this presidency. I donít question his right to claim the office. Weíve demonstrated today with the Electoral College that he has the electoral votes. Thatís now behind us. Now weíve got to work together, put politics behind us, and get on with really governing.
http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:TlOca-LJ8xcJ:www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec00/daschle_12-18.html


 
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