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Passions in Poetry

Gimmick or genius?

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Larry C
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175 posted 09-04-2008 07:38 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

So this feels a lot like when I was a Juvenile Probation Officer and kids would try to make me mad by some rude statement about my mom(and they didn't even know her). And it feels a lot like an effort to convince somebody against their will to believe like me. It all seems foolish to me. But I must say that the remarks made about the children or parenting are indeed offensive. If the children are to be hidden away as is somehow suggested as the appropriate choice then how does the country get a sense of family for the candidates? And if the kids are on camera how in the world does that make them fair game?

There are a few meaningful comments in this thread that I found useful. But mostly I find dialogue between raging Democrats and raging Reupublicans to be less than meaningfully useful.

At the end of the day I don't ultimately care what your opinion of any of the candidates is because I will vote for the candidates of my choosing. If they win, great. If they lose, I'll hope for better choices next time because frankly I'm too picky to have really liked my options in a long time.
JenniferMaxwell
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176 posted 09-04-2008 08:04 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

There was no suggestion from me that the children should be “hidden away”. What I was trying to point out is that I saw instances where it appeared to me their physical and emotional well being wasn’t given top priority as it should be.  And to me that's one huge red flag.

You're quite right, Larry, after all is said and done, we all go with the candidate of our choice. But I hope we all make that choice after carefully researching the facts.
JenniferMaxwell
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177 posted 09-04-2008 09:07 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You know, now that I  think about it, the fact that the children were left out, weren’t informed is really the biggest red flag of all.

Here’s an event that’s going to dramatically alter their lives forever yet Palin didn’t discuss it with them, not even with her 17 and 18 year old?  She just drags them off under false pretenses and springs it on them? Wow! That really boggles my mind and smells like selfishness and dysfunction.

That’s what was wrong with the picture that I couldn’t quite put my finger on. That's what was raising my hackles and ticking me off. I’m totally blown away - how could any mother ever do that to her kids.

I remember Michelle Obama saying something about how she and Barack had discussed with their children the changes that would be happening in their lives. They prepared their kids for what to expect. That’s how a real family works.

Bob K
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178 posted 09-04-2008 10:56 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Darn, Balladeer,

            I was reading through the posts and I came across # 152 in which you tried to pre-empt Alison actually looking for herself to see if the way you'd been talking about Al Gore had been true or not when you made fun of him (once again) "inventing the internet."  I was pleased to see that you'd used a pretty reputable web site to get your information
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp  

and was pleased because I knew that if you did so, you'd have to do some backpedaling.  I knew that a righteous source of information would support the sort of BUSH-league smear that folks indulge in when they talk about the old "Gore said he Invented the Internet" lie.

     You say  "According to Snopes. . .      ." at one point in your posting but don't actually indicate where the quote begins or ends.  This tends to be somewhat misleading, especially  because you begin your quotation after the fairly straightforward answer to the question CLAIM: "Vice President Al Gore Claimed to have invented the Internet?" and the equally straightforforward answer:  STATUS:  "False."

     Skipping over the main point of the Snopes posting, you go ahead to quote what then—out of context now—sounds like a more equivocal answer than it was meant to be.

Balladeer's out of context quote now reads:

quote:
  The "Al Gore said he 'invented' the Internet" put-downs were misleading, out-of-context distortions of something he said during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN's "Late Edition" program on 9 March 1999. When asked to describe what distinguished him from his challenger for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gore replied (in part):

During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.

Clearly, although Gore's phrasing might have been a bit clumsy (and perhaps self-serving), he was not claiming that he "invented" the Internet (in the sense of having designed or implemented it), but that he was responsible, in an economic and legislative sense, for fostering the development the technology that we now know as the Internet.



     This enables Balladeer to substitute his own paragraph for the unqualified "FALSE" that the actual Quote he proports to be using actually concludes.  

     Here is Balladeers last paragraph:

quote:
Balladeer:
So there you have it. Does saying "taking the initiative to create the internet" means he claimed to create the Internet? Well, a Republican would say yes if they wanted to use it and a Democrat would say no, trying to reject it. It's all politics, Bob, and you know how that goes. As we have come to have Bush-isms, that was a Gore-ism. Nothing more, nothing less...



     This sounds nothing like the single word unqualified statement that Snopes itself offers as the essence of its judgement on the claim.  Snopes says , "False."

     Surely this is one of the most misleading uses of quotation that has appeared on this web site.  It seems as if it was information used to deceive and smear rather than to enlighten and share the truth.  At the very least it is a primary example of taking a quote out of context to mean something close to the opposite of what it actually says.
http://www.ontheissues.org/askme/internet.htm


     The above web site actually has more unbiased information about the situation as well, in case Alison might be interested in checking it out.  These are the facts as best I can figure them out.

     Balladeer, I'm very sorry, but I actually do try to check out the things that people post as references, and I simply couldn't let this one go by, much as I like you and much as I do actually believe that you feel these things to be true with every fiber of your being.  There's got to be more than feeling here.  Feeling has lots of important truth to it, but there's got to be other stuff as well.

     Please forgive me for insisting on this.  I know you have a noble heart.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Balladeer
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179 posted 09-04-2008 11:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm sorry you feel that way, Bob. I cut and pasted the part pertinent to the conversation at hand, whether or not Gore said he invented the internet and, if not, what did he say. if I hadn't wanted you to see the rest of it, I wouldn't have included the link. Actually, I wouldn't have posted anything at all. To make the claim I tried to hide it or misrepresent it doesn't make a lot of sense with the link included, does it?

No, he did not say "I invented the internet". He did say "I took the initiative in creating the internet." Both statements are inaccurate.

To accuse me of trying to hide or misrepresent information I willingly provide a link to doesn't make a lot of sense to me, outside of trying to be argumentative and I don't know why you would want to do that, although calling it one of the most misleading uses of quotation that has appeared on this web site certainly appears that way. My mistake. I shouldn't have bothered.

Have a good night....
Alison
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180 posted 09-05-2008 01:16 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Dear Bob,

I offer an apology for making an untrue statement in regards to Vice President Al Gore.  I, also, read that the statement that I attributed to him was never made by him.

Alison
Bob K
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181 posted 09-05-2008 02:45 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Balladeer,

quote:

No, he did not say "I invented the internet". He did say "I took the initiative in creating the internet." Both statements are inaccurate.



     In reference to your comment quoted above, I suggest that you check out the other reference I cited:
http://www.ontheissues.org/askme/internet.htm

which goes some way in addressing these Richard Army  distortions so freely passed about in Republican circles.  This cite, also a non-partisan site, might suggest otherwise and begins to address some of the many lies about the former Vice President that are passed about unquestioned in Republican circles.  When not confronted, these distortions are also passed off as truth about the man by Republicans in general conversation or discussion.  Democrats unwilling to confront the lies for fear of making a public mess simply allow this to happen for fear of looking uncouth.  This is another thing I often dislike about Democrats, including myself.  We are shy about looking foolish.

     I am not accusing you of trying to hide or misrepresent information, Balladeer.  There is no accusation involved.  I am pointing out the fact that this is exactly what you did.  I am making no attempt to explain why at this point.  I am puzzled.  As I said, I believe you are a man with a noble heart, and I don't understand the why of it myself.  Nevertheless, you took an article whose point was clear and was even presented in bullet points at the top of the article and managed to exclude the point of the article from your presentation.  

     That is what you did, you realize, don't you?

     And then you managed to tack on a conclusion that was 180 degrees at odds with the conclusion of the article.  (In this case you said that the article thought that Gore's presentation was ambiguous, when in fact the article said it was not.)  And then you said that it was a matter of how people looked at the facts—Democrats would see it one way and republicans would see it another.

     If you had managed to make clear that this was your conclusion only and that it had nothing to do with what the article said, I would have nothing to say to you about this other than Grr, Grr, Grr and I disagree.  Tough on me.
By not making that distinction, you were misleading the casual reader into thinking that you had mustered an objective authority.  You had not.  This is the sort of things that gets students failing grades on papers, and gets graduate students thrown out of graduate programs.

     This is not anywhere near such a formal forum.  Why you would do such a thing I don't know.  I can only assume you were thinking you weren't doing anything wrong, but you were in fact borrowing somebody's authority to bolster a position they didn't hold.  I'm not a mind reader, I can't explain it.  I like you.

     You should bother to use sources.  You should bother to quote.  But I still believe this was a highly misleading use of quotation; to take something out of context in a way  that makes it sound as though it supports something completely opposite of what it says really is something I can't recall having seen here before.  And for you to sound upset, as though you've been wounded, when it's pointed out to you is a bit much.  What's appropriate is simply to stop doing it in the future.  The fact that you're an enormously beloved figure by almost everybody including me is enough.  We all know you have an enormous open heart.  

Best to you, Bob Kaven

      

moonbeam
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182 posted 09-05-2008 03:43 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

The analogy is not good Larry; that is unless your mom was a controversial public figure with a mixture of fact, rumour and speculation spread all over the media about her.  As for forcing people to change their minds I'm quite sure that no-one here is foolish enough to think that they are going to sway people via a discussion on an internet message board.  I, for one, am simply saying what I think - what the Alley is for I hope.

Mike, sorry to see you think it's a question of win or lose.  If it's any consolation I don't feel like I've won.  Quite the opposite in fact; disappointed that you still seem to feel that speculation about Palin's motives regarding family appearances was out of order.  Maybe it's the old Atlantic gulf, but over here there is a pretty much uniform good natured cynicism when politicians do their kissing babies for votes routine, and by extension, any politician deliberately flaunting his/her kids and babies on stage would be looked at askance.  Anyway, I think the modern expression is: "whatevvvver!"

I agree the thread has about run it's course, but I have a feeling Ms Palin is gonna provide a whole lot more excitement and controversy in the coming months.    
JenniferMaxwell
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183 posted 09-05-2008 04:45 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Palin’s a distraction who comes with more baggage than Britney Spears. She’s a piece of eye candy tossed into the mix to take media’s focus off Johnny McSame’s bomb bomb Iran and a hundred more years of war. She’ll carry the water like a good little sock puppet for Cheney and Bush’s big oil crony friends. Bottom line -  if she’s not even ready for the morning talk shows, she’s sure not ready to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency!
Send her back to moose country and give Johnny a do over!

Balladeer
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184 posted 09-05-2008 08:36 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I am not accusing you of trying to hide or misrepresent information, Balladeer.  There is no accusation involved.  I am pointing out the fact that this is exactly what you did.

Fine, Bob. I took the direct italicized quotes from the article, transferred them here and that's apparently worthy of your criricism. I'm weary of the bickering and tag team matches never interested me, anyway. Feel anyway  you want. It is apparent that any attempt to converse is going to lead to some form of accusation of wrongdoing in some form or another and I have much more to occupy my mind right now that tiresome, negative back and forths. No need to respond. I leave the dazzling and baffling to you and yours. Enjoy....
Ringo
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185 posted 09-05-2008 11:45 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

OK, Guys... this is how I see things....

MB started this thread to get people talking about the Republican's suprise decision to select a relatively unknown governor from a politically inconsequential state (My apologies Alison; however, 3 electoral votes doesn't really stand up to 55 or some of the others) to be Sen. McCain's Number 2.
Along the way, we went through "truths" and "lies" about the candidate and her positions, and whether she is a good mother for lying to her children (Santa Claus anyone? Eater Bunny? Tooth Fairy?) or for shooting wolves for no apparent reason, and all of the rest..

Now, it seems that Jennifer feels disrespected and insulted, and refuses to let it go, even though the "offending" post has been taken care of and apologized for. Balladeer feels like he is being ganged up on, and is taking his ball and going home. Gov. Sarah Palin, who started off this thread 184 posts ago has been totally forgotten, and she is the reason we got together in the first place.

I would recommend that everyone step back to their own neutral corners, take a deep breath, and forget this friggin' thread ever existed. There is a point where a "lively discussion" becomes a flat out screaming match, and we seemed to have passed that point.
As you are all adults, you are entitled to do as you choose. For me, I choose to let you all sit here screaming at each other and looking foolish (IMO).

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

Huan Yi
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186 posted 09-05-2008 12:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Can Palin Pull an Obama?
Apparently, star power can trump the gravest of biographical liabilities.


“It’s clear that McCain picked her because he had decided that he needed a game-changer. But why? He’d closed the gap in the polls with Obama. True, that had more to do with Obama sagging than McCain gaining. But what’s the difference? You win either way.

Obama was sagging because of missteps that reflected the fundamental weakness of his candidacy. Which suggested McCain’s strategy: Make this a referendum on Obama, surely the least experienced, least qualified, least prepared presidential nominee in living memory.

Palin fatally undermines this entire line of attack . .”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTE4OTc1NjQxNDFiNzk4OTA0YTllZDhjODU2NGY3YzY=
.

Krauthammer offers a pretty good summary of the situation.
It now comes down to who can win American Idol,
bread and circuses.
JenniferMaxwell
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187 posted 09-05-2008 12:57 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Excuse me, Ringo, but did you even see the original post that Balladeer put up?

Do you think it's appropriate to use vulgar language and make it look like another poster said it?

Did you notice that I had to spend two hours of my time trying to get him to take the post down and that I reported the post and never got a reply?

This is a moderator we're talking about, not a new poster who didn't read the rules. He knew he was out of bounds and he knew he could get away with it because he IS a moderator.  

Questions are up, Ringo, I await your answers.
moonbeam
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188 posted 09-05-2008 01:09 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Actually Ringo I think you were pretty much on the money with everything you said except the bit about Palin fading out of the thread.  Palin is controversial, zany, outspoken, forceful, as she herself portrays herself, a pit bull - she ain't about to fade away from anywhere, and she's high risk verging on dangerous imo.  McCain's taken a gamble, and if he's incredibly lucky it might pay off.

What worries me is if it DOES.  

Then we get a Palin - McCain duo in charge of a large slice of the world.  And I mean it that way round because sure as hell Palin is gonna be whispering in his ear: "it was all myyyy doin' darlin' (they speak like that in Alaska ,) nowww it's payback time".  

It's how much power she can wield with that whisper that bothers me.

M

Are you allowed to say "friggin'" here?  
JenniferMaxwell
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189 posted 09-05-2008 01:42 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"Apologize? If this lowers your opinion of me in your eyes, I'm sorry, but that's something that will not happen to anyone who would make such comments."

That the apology you were referring to, Ringo?
Sunshine
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190 posted 09-05-2008 01:57 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
This is a moderator we're talking about, not a new poster who didn't read the rules. He knew he was out of bounds and he knew he could get away with it because he IS a moderator.

Actually, Jennifer, you are wrong on this innuendo on "anyone" getting away with anything. If you will remember the time of night that you sent several messages on this thread, as well as posting your complaint directly to the other Deputy Moderators, you might be aware that some of us have to sleep as we have actual jobs we attend to during the day.

It's easy enough for anyone to get pushed past a point where we lose a bit of our common sense, or choose to hit the Off button, but as you didn't offer up the whole of the offending thread, and since it WAS deleted by the poster within two hours, which can easily be seen by the date/time line, then you're right. A lot of us simply don't know what was said, or better yet, how it could be taken personally. All I know is that by the time I got up and checked in, there was nothing I could do, because the "offending matter" was removed.

Believe me, Jennifer, when any one of the members, including Deputy or Senior Moderators OR Administrators go beyond the boundaries, we ARE called down on it.

Just thought you might like that clarification so you will realize that no one gets away with anything around here.

Thanks.
JenniferMaxwell
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191 posted 09-05-2008 02:49 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Sunshine, thanks for responding so promptly. I’ll do a search for the original post and send it to you if I find it.  Maybe you could simply ask Balladeer what he said and how he said it.

In the meantime, perhaps you could deal with this, another false statement that I consider a personal attack and again, it’s from a moderator, Ringo:

“Now, it seems that Jennifer feels disrespected and insulted, and refuses to let it go, even though the "offending" post has been taken care of and apologized for.”

If you review the thread, you’ll find that indeed I most certainly DID let it go, I even THANKED Balladeer for finally editing the post to remove my name and the vulgar language associated with it.  I moved on discussing other issues and never even mentioned the post again until AFTER Balladeer brought it up in a post where AGAIN he implies I’d say something like was in his edited version, which, though far less vulgar, is still pretty tasteless.  

At best, Ringo’s post is very misleading, and it’s dead wrong regarding the apology and refusing to let it go.  He, too, has put words in my mouth that I never said. I trust you’ll take care of that immediately and delete that part of his post. Thanks

moonbeam
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192 posted 09-05-2008 02:54 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Karilea

I have a lot of respect for you as both a poet and moderator and I totally accept what you say above.  In fact from personal experience I know how hard you mods work to maintain order, and to deal with problems as they arise ... can you hear the "but" coming? lol

Having said that sometimes it does seem to me you get it wrong (not you, but "you" collectively).  I do strongly feel that when the two "poems" below (with names changed to preserve the innocent), were published on this site they should have been instantly removed.  

They weren't.

Not only were they not removed, but in the case of one of them it was hotly followed by no less than three senior moderators all posting replies in support of the poster's right to publish a racist attack, and much worse yet than that.  Presumably the issue was discussed in the mods forum, and the decision was made to leave the posts - that's sad enough, but for one mod (SEA) to actually say in public: "I think it's fine ..." was almost unbelievably naive.  

Naive because such a reaction from the keepers of PiP law and order has inevitably lowered the bar drastically on what is and isn't permissible in the Alley.  With such a background I find it breathtakingly hypocritical for anyone to scream foul at Jenn's relatively mild (by comparison) attack on Palin.  

And yes, Karilea, it does diminish the Mods a bit in my view, most of whom do, as I say, a wonderful job     .

I hope you don't mind me raising this, I only do so because of your post to Jennifer.

Here are the poems and the comments:

With apologies to Jaime Fradera:

Boy Hooker Palin can not win,
unless it is the same way Hitler won.
The people of this country and this continent
will never be governed by an insufferable tyrant
and will not endure living in a Marxist hell,
and then will bury this wanna-be misleader,
this plastic, patchwork persona,
this arrogant, trumpt-up, inflated buffoon
in contempt, ridicule and scorn.
Palin will not deliver us from evil,
but into it.  
A sudden, meteoric rise
always precedes an equally meteoric fall.
Remove me from this forum if you will,
but history will vindicate these words.

And:

Palin is a populist demigog.
So when Palin says:
White ist der master race,
ve say heil,
heil,
right in Palin's face.
Mz McCain Cindy  ain't much better.
So when Frau Cindy says:
I'm mistress of zis place,
Ve sai heil,
heil,
right up frau McCain's face.


Poet deVine

While I don't agree with Jaime, he does have the right to express his opinion here in the Alley

SEA

the fact is, it's his opinion. He didn't ask you to agree with it. I think it's fine ...

Balladeer

Well, he is entitled to his opinion and no one is forced to respond and that's the bottom line. Can it be found distasteful? Sure, but I can go the archives and find things said about Bush that equal it with no complaints.

(Umm, I'm editing this just to make it crystal clear that in no way do I condone or subscribe to the sentiments expressed in those poems either in relation to Mrs Palin or Mr Obama or Mr or Mrs McCain.  Both poems in my view are unadulterated vitriolic bad written ignorant rubbish of the most insidious kind.  Just wanted to clarify that )

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-05-2008 03:29 PM).]

Sunshine
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193 posted 09-05-2008 03:42 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Jennifer,

Whether or not you find the "offending post" it is somewhat irrelevant at this point, as it has been removed by the poster as you had requested. For me, that means "case closed".  

As for Ringo's comment to you, you are welcome to submit a complaint on that particular thread so that all of the DM's are aware of your position, and can deal with it if need be. Personally, I see it as an observation only, but I've been known to be wrong.  

Moonbeam, the same thing applies to Mr. Fradera's post. If you found it objectionable, I at this point in time do not recall it being seen in the DM forum for review. Does it truly break guidelines, or is this the simple conjecture of another poet with whom you do not agree? It is also off topic in this particular thread.

With the handful of people who volunteer in their spare time to help Ron moderate this site [a mere handful of volunteers for a community of 12,000 plus] it won't surprise you that all poems do not get scanned by all eyes. That is why Ron made it so easy for those offended by anyone's post to simply click the "inappropriate" button on the upper right hand side of your screen.

When not submitted anonymously, we do get back to our members who submitted a concern so they can be told how the matter was dealt with. When the concern is submitted anonymously, there's no way we can contact the person who submitted the concern, and we still deal with it as the majority decides.

You think the Alley offers a dichotomy of thought on various subject matters?   Then you've never applied to be a DM.  

Overall, the Alley is Ron's venue, and any removing of a thread or entire post is up to him. Even moderators and admin will submit something we believe may be inappropriate, and at this time I don't see where I might have need to do so. But you are both free to submit your concerns.

Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Sunshine (09-05-2008 09:00 PM).]

moonbeam
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194 posted 09-05-2008 03:52 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Hi Karilea and sorry to be taking up so much of your time. I didn't see Jaime's posts till way after they were posted and I wasn't participating in the thread, so I didn't send an objection, I suppose I should have done.

You ask:

"Does it truly break guidelines ...?"

I suppose that's what I was asking you as a moderator, or even your views as a member.  I was questioning how anyone could now regard Jenn as being disrespectful if those posts weren't considered to be disrespectful.

I think Karilea the question is simple:

Does portraying Mr Obama as a racist, mass-murdering, Jew killing, madman, break the rules of this forum as regards respect?

You tell me please, if not as a mod, then just as a member?

Many thanks again.

M
Sunshine
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195 posted 09-05-2008 04:04 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Moonbeam, with all due respect,
please review these two links,
and then you tell me.

http://piptalk.com/pip/guidelines/rules.html
http://piptalk.com/pip/guidelines/philosophy.html  

These are links I and the other moderators take very seriously. In fact, I often go back and review these when I come up against questions such as yours. But in light of the question, and for anyone following this thread, it may be of some assistance to them as well. Keep in mind, too, that these links are available to all members 24/7 under the Member's Area/Help button.
Thank you.
moonbeam
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196 posted 09-05-2008 04:04 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Just to get back on track again.

Bob and Balladeer both seem to respect the CS Monitor as a reliable objective source - so do I having read the daily edition for some years now.

This:
http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/09/04/next-test-for-mccain-and-pallin-winning-undecideds/

is a typically balanced article.  What is more interesting is the readers' reactions, in the comments below, to Palin's speech.  
Sunshine
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197 posted 09-05-2008 04:30 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

And keeping on track, there's always Rasmussen.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_power_fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama_mccain
moonbeam
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198 posted 09-05-2008 04:34 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Thanks again Karilea I was forgetting I could do it myself.  

Instinctively I feel that what was posted was wrong and having reviewed Ron's guidelines (for the umpteenth time   ).  I feel viscerally that Ron wouldn't approve either.

Whether it breaches any specific guidelines rather than simply vaguely bucking the "moral tone" of PiP is possibly moot.

The nearest possibility I could find was under "Freedom of Speech":

"We have deleted posts that were vulgar or glorified violence and hate."

"Vulgar"
     2. Rude, uncouth, distasteful, obscene.

I submit that what Jaime wrote was actually all of those things, and therefore comprehensively met the vulgarity test.

His poems did not glorify hate but they certainly promoted it.  

To people like myself who have relatives who died fighting Hitler, and have relatives and friends who had relatives who died in the camps, portraying anyone at all as like Hitler is an obscenity, let alone an innocent like Mr Obama.  Perhaps Jaime, as a young man, did not realise the possible impact of what he was doing, but reading Ron's words I consider that Jaime overstepped the responsibility that comes with FoS at PiP.

"We have deleted posts that served no purpose beyond the venting of hostility."

It seems to me that this guideline has arguably been  breached, especially given the number of other posts Jaime has made which were simply rude shots at Mr Obama.  Some of his posts were simply rude - these "poems" imo spill over into the equivalent of gratuitous hate mail of the sort you see on unmoderated partisan newsgroups.  

Hope that helps Karilea.  Do you agree that I might have a point?

I realise totally that Ron probably only edits or deletes on the basis of degree, and that just because something breaches the guidelines it won't automatically be deleted.  But there ya go, that's my view.
M  
Huan Yi
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199 posted 09-05-2008 04:56 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Sunshine,

The article surprised me.  Still I agree
with Krauthammer that McCain gave up
a good campaign strategy hammering on
Obama’s lack of experience and record
to participate in a very risky beauty contest.  


.
 
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