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Passions in Poetry

Gimmick or genius?

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moonbeam
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50 posted 09-01-2008 05:38 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I agree Mike, it shouldn't make any difference at all.  Moreover in a better world it wouldn't have been reported.

The fact that you immediately assume that Obama supporters will use it to vilify Palin is a sad incitement on the state of US politics, and is another illustration of why you need a man of stature and vision who can rise above such pettiness and, more crucially, as I said earlier, lift his supporters with him to higher ideals.  Obama is again showing promise I think .

(And btw I meant to say earlier, I am in no way a "Democrat" - Bill Cliton for instance was my least favourite President and Hilary doesn't rate too high either).

M

(Yes deliberate and disrespectful I know - bad me! Heh)
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51 posted 09-01-2008 05:46 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

The following quote if from CNN and was spoken by Steve Schmidt, a McCain Senior Advisor.

quote:
"The one thing that all the candidates agree on is this: Leave the kids alone. Leave the kids alone. This is an election about the future of the country,"


Perhaps we should show the same level of class and empathy?
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52 posted 09-01-2008 05:52 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I agree Alison, and if it was me I'd move heaven and earth to help achieve that goal of the press (and public) leaving the kids alone, by NOT having them able to take a shot of my daughter holding my baby son during the campaign rally where I was introduced as the vice presidential running mate!!

I mean, seriously, what IS going on?!
Huan Yi
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53 posted 09-01-2008 06:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"I agree Mike, it shouldn't make any difference at all . . ."


So you really believe those who will
vote will not ask: How can a mother
who can not govern her own family
help govern a nation of 300 million?

I am a McCain supporter and I know
better than that.


.
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54 posted 09-01-2008 07:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, John, I know. The main reason they made it public was because that, immediately after her nomination, Democratic bloggers started various threads making the claim that Palin's last child, the one with Downes, was actually her daughter's baby. They showed pictures of Palin during the pregnancy, trying to make the claim that she didn't look big enough to be pregnant and all kinds of little tricks to get something started. So you can be sure thay won't leave this alone.

Even George Stephanopolous on the evening news tonight said, "No, it shouldn't make any difference but then one must ask how many other things there are about Palin that we don't know about....to which old buddy Charlie Gibson said "YES! YES!"...Gotta love ABC..

Things like this show American politics at it's worst. So do the thousands of protesters at the RNC, many of which have been arrested for slashing tires and breaking windows. Didn't see that happenening at the DNC. It's a matter of class.....
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55 posted 09-01-2008 07:50 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Didn't see that happenening at the DNC. It's a matter of class


Or maybe it’s the small matter of not supporting the continued invasion of Iraq that kept the anti-war protesters away from Obama’s party.

That would seem to be a simple matter of common sense on the protesters part if you ask me.

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56 posted 09-01-2008 10:45 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Just getting back and not quite up to speed yet, so I’ll just toss in my hat along with a few random thoughts, then go catch up on my reading.

8/31 “The campaign of John McCain has sent a staff of eight people into Alaska to conduct background checks and vetting on Governor Sarah Palin.” McCain kinda got that vetting/selecting thing a little bass ackwards, didn’t he? Those gosh darn senior moments again!

Palin and her husband were members of the secessionist group AIP. Country first? Makes you wonder, sure doesn’t sound that way to me.

Lying about the polar bear population, what’s she got against polar bears? Isn’t killing moose enough for her? And aerial hunting - fly by killing, no need to get your Bean boots muddy or bloody.

Yep, the children of candidates shouldn’t be held up to scrutiny or ridicule. Too bad McCain didn’t think of that before he mocked Chelsea Clinton, calling her ugly because her father was Janet Reno,.

Palin has National Security experience because “Alaska is close to Russia”. Cindy McCain actually said that with a straight face. Too funny for words!

Well, I’m off to make a big bowl of popcorn to munch on while I wait for the next episode of the Johnny and (she's his "soulmate") Sarah Show. It’s gonna be a real doozy!

Oh, one last thought - Too much drama? Vote Obama!

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57 posted 09-01-2008 11:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, old pal, that comment is not up to your standards. In fact, it shouldn't be up to anyone's standards.

So you are basically saying that being against the Iraq war DOES excuse tire-slashing and window breaking? You want to think that one over a little?

There were protesters at both locations. I pointed out the actions of the protesters, that's all. I find it hard to believe you would support the vandalism actions of one of them.
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58 posted 09-01-2008 11:24 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Well, one thing for sure, Jennifer, Obama has out-classed you on the issue of Palin's daughter's pregnancy.  I guess he is smart enough and compassionate enough to know how small it is to stoop at insulting teenagers.  

I suggest that when you google, you spread out your reading a bit.  The aerial wolf kill issue was just on the ballot in Alaska.  It passed and allowed people to fly, land and shoot wolves on the same day.  The issue is not whether I like it or not - what I take issue with is you lumping it into your rant.  It was an initiative passed by the people of Alaska.  It was not put into law by Palin simply saying, "Make it so."

As far as the Polar Bear, you know I really don't know if our Governor likes them or not.  I am sure that you have noted that the number of Polar Bear has increased and is a stable number.  The issue was not whether Polar Bear are liked or not.  It is that this is the first animal to be put onto the ESL due to what can happen to them.  There is no reason to put them on the list yet, except pressure from alarmist groups who have deemed it necessary to place them on it.  

If there is evidence to support putting them on an ESL - then that's another issue.  So far, the evidence is limited and has not been proven over time.

You know, I take exception to your posts because you take small soundbites of information and toss them out like they are gospel.  

I would be far more impressed if you stopped playing the negative game and started telling people why you think they sould vote for Obama.  Remember the old adage that you kill more flies with honey - ranting is not very impressive.

Vote for McCain if you want.  Vote for Obama.  If you don't like those on the VP tickest -- gee, too bad.  I don't recall them asking you - or me - or Balladeer - or anyone.  It's part of the process, darlin'.  It's called freedom of choice.

Be happy who McCain has selected, you find her so inept that you can be the first to say that you told the world so.  Maybe you should move on to some issues to covnice people why we should vote your way.

Oh, and out of curiousity - you mentioned global warming several times.  Obviously, you are very concerned.  How have you changed your life to help ease global warming?  Are you working to help people become more aware?  Or are you just one more person contributing to issues by bashing people who don't believe the way you do?  Just wonder.

A
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59 posted 09-01-2008 11:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Wow, Jennifer. She has caused you to become completely unhinged. Keep firing. You are making her look better and critics like you look more desperate....nice.
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60 posted 09-01-2008 11:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Palin has National Security experience because “Alaska is close to Russia”. Cindy McCain actually said that with a straight face. Too funny for words!

You like funny? When they asked Obama months ago about his foreign policy experience, or lack of, he responded by saying he had a grandmother in Africa. Now THAT'S funny!
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61 posted 09-01-2008 11:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Awwww shucks, you really missed me, didn't you, Balladeer. No other kids on the playground to bully?  

Anyway, compare living "close to Russia" to this:

Senator Barack Obama is on the Senate Committees for Foreign Relations; Homeland Security; Veterans Affairs; Health, Education, Labor and Pensions. He's gone on three major trips overseas as part of an official Senate delegation, meeting with U.S. generals, and/or foreign leaders.

He and Senator Lugar travelled to the former Soviet states to inspect the destruction of WMDs; he traveled to Iraq and met with U.S. generals, and also toured Kuwait, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian territories; he visited various African countries, including Kenya (his father's homeland).

Some of the countries he has visited while Senator:


2005
Moscow
Kiev
Baku
Azerbaijan

2006
Qatar
Kuwait
Iraq
Jordan
Israel
South Africa
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Kenya
Djibouti
Chad


And that doesn't even include the last two years.

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (09-02-2008 12:47 AM).]

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62 posted 09-02-2008 12:33 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Alison, I never mentioned Bristol's pregnancy, but you just did.

Trying to recall, think Palin said the polar bear population had increased by 30% whereas scientific studies have it down something like 20%. I mean unbiased scientific studies, not those done by Exxon and “big oil”. And she’s suing the Federal Government over polar bears. What’s up with that? Seems a little bizarre for a VP wannbe to be suing the Federal Government, don't you think?.

Do you think a secessionist belongs on the ticket, doesn't make much sense to me. Do you think maybe she's one of those infiltrators the AIP is trying to place in the two major parties, sort of like Alaska's own Manchurian Candidate?

As for the wolves, aerial hunting
http://www.bentbay.dk/dyr/wolf-ad-200603.gif

And what’s with the darlin’ thing? I thought we were supposed to be respectful of other posters.
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63 posted 09-02-2008 12:57 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Jennifer,

First, my apologies for offending you for using 'darlin' in my last response to you.  Please, take it up with a Moderator to show my lack of respect to you.  

Yes, I did actually bring up the pregnancy issue - again, you have my apologies if I misuderstood your reference to children and ridicule in your post up above.  Maybe it was a more obscure reference than I had realized.

As far as the polar bear, by all means, please provide a link back to your references.  

Alison

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64 posted 09-02-2008 01:09 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Okay, you finally did it.  You have me laughing, Jennifer.  

quote:
As for the wolves, aerial hunting http://www.bentbay.dk/dyr/wolf-ad-200603.gif



This is what you base your remarks about aerial hunting on.  Please, tell me that I am wrong.  Please?



An advertisemet is the best you can come up with?  From 2006?  From an organization based out of New York?  Yep, I am sure that they have it way over the biologists who research moose populations, wolf populations and how the two interact with each other.

Well, I have to concede this debate.  It's apparent that I can't top your references, even living here and having just voted on the aerial wolf kill issue.  

Alison
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65 posted 09-02-2008 01:11 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Does that mean you don't want the polar bear reference, Alison? Dang, and I went to all that trouble of pulling the sound bite out of my ear. That's not an easy thing to do, you know!
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66 posted 09-02-2008 01:15 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Yep, I thought the wolf/moose thing was kinda cute and clever myself. Glad it made you smile. I live in moose country, too. Bet you never guessed that, did you?

Now what about the secessionist thing? That the kind of person the country needs as VP?

Alison
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67 posted 09-02-2008 01:18 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

You sure make it look easy.  Nah, don't bother - I don't think I could read it right now anyway, I am laughing too hard.  

G'nite,
A

PS - I am not answering your questions because I have not seen them. I am not answering them because my personal opinions and beliefs are just that - personal.  I am not debating your beliefs, Jennifer.  I am asking you make sound arguments to back up what you say.  I really don't care what your political views are - I'll take mine to the polls and vote.
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68 posted 09-02-2008 01:23 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Correction on a previous post- What Palin actually said was the polar bear population had increased over the last 30 years, not 30%.

Here's the quote, hope you don't mind a little earwax. Happens sometimes when you pull out old sound bites.

"In fact, the number of polar bears has risen dramatically over the past 30 years"

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69 posted 09-02-2008 01:27 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I think you're trying very hard to avoid or discount my questions and the issues. But that's ok, I understand.
Have a good one!
Alison
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70 posted 09-02-2008 02:05 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Jennifer,

I have not made a habit of posting in the Alley.  I read a lot of the discussions and leave with my own point of view intact, or changed by what I have read.  That's how I am.

I entered this conversation with one comment, and that was that in answer to the question which titles this thread.

It has been fun watching you go off on tangents about a place that you know nothing about.  I have yet to ask you one question that is not based on what you have written here.  It has also come to my attention that you have answered none that I asked.  

I respect your opinions, but I don't respect your method of taking small pieces of information and putting them out like some truth written in stone. I am also not a large fan of people who attribute their use of humor when they show their ignorance.  As I said in an earlier post, my sense of humor must be lacking in that area.

There are a few things that I make a point not to discuss in a debate format.  Yep, one of them is politics.  I could give a flying you know what what your political beliefs are.  I don't really care how you vote.  I don't really care that you are from an area that has moose.  I care that you came out with personal attacks about a person that you know nothing about.

As I said in one of my first posts in response to you, she is going to make plenty of mistakes.  Maybe it is happening already.  She's human and whether I vote for McCain or Obama, I respect her for what she has done in Alaska and I respect her for accepting to be on the Republican ticket.  She won't change my vote, but I respect her.

I am not a lover of mud slinging, Jennifer.  You have good aim, but your mud balls are not sticking together.

Alison
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71 posted 09-02-2008 05:23 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Phew, this thread is sure contributing to global warming right now!

Alison, it's probably safer to refer to it as "climate change".  I assume that when Palin talks about "global warming" she is referring to the acceleration in the pace of change of various climatic indicators.

I think she is being politically naive at best, and expediently dishonest (her oil interests) at worst.  I'll think the best of her and assume it's the former.

Politically naive because right now the huge weight of scientific opinion is leaning towards the theory that man is "causing" climate change.  For a major political figure to be blatantly out of line with that is simply foolish.  She cannot KNOW whether she is right or not, and she would lose nothing by hedging her bets.  It again smacks of a character who has the potential to shoot first and think later (too late maybe).

The fact is though that based upon evidence from, amongst many other sources, polar ice cores, the climate is changing as it has done in cycles over the millenia.  This time however there is some evidence, growing stronger, that the rate of change is much faster.  Many scientists are pointing to man's activities as the reason for this acceleration.  

In my book, whether this is in fact the case, and whether in fact it even matters in the long-term (10,000 years +) or the very long term (millions of years +), is irrelevant to the fact that there are some things that man is doing now which he hasn't done on a such a huge scale ever before.  For instance:

Emissions of certain well mediarized gases, rapid deforestation, intensive chemically based agriculture, playing with radioactive materials etc.

Whether or not these sort of activities are causing "harm", they are different.  So even though a correlation may not yet be proven, why take risks?

I think I read somewhere that Palin is in fact encouraging some measures to mitigate some of the above problems.  Perhaps you know about this?

And as I know you'll challenge me to say what I'm doing personally, I:

Reduce travel to an absolute minimum
Never travel by air even on business (cheap package holidays should be banned imo)
Am saving to buy a hybrid car within 12 months
Have planted 250 trees in the last 2 years
Never use chemicals in the garden
Use only organically derived products in the house that are biodegradable
Eat 80% organic and locally produced foods
Try to eat less meat (reduction of methane from cattle)
Switch off all appliances not in use (no standby)
Use eco washing cylces
Buy "green" electricity
Am installing wood burning stoves
Am converting to a wood pellet boiler and geothermal heat pump heating
Recycle and compost approx 95% of waste produce from the home
Compost all garden waste and grass clippings and reuse
Oppose most onshore windfarms
and lots more to do with insulation, solar recovery and ecological land management.

So there!         

M

PS You can call me "darlin'" anyday btw, but could you add the "g", it sounds sooo much more refined - and, oh yes, just blown kisses please, I don't like my lipstick smudged.
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72 posted 09-02-2008 05:38 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
so you are basically saying that being against the Iraq war DOES excuse tire-slashing and window breaking?


Actually Mike I was trying to point out that the support for war in Iraq rather than the “class” of either party was the main reason why the hardcore minority of anti-war protesters with a penchant for vandalism were active at one rally and not the other.

quote:
You want to think that one over a little?


I already have Mike.

Whether affirmative action, a euphemism for civil unrest, riots, vandalism and general lawlessness should be condoned or condemned is an interesting question. I think it depends largely on your political views, shifts in public opinion regarding the validity of your grievance and ultimately the results seen in a historical context. For instance protesters promoting civil unrest to end the Vietnam war are seen as both heroes and villains depending on the above perspectives.

Personally I think there’s a point where civil unrest is justifiable and yes, even vandalism, I don’t think that point has been reached with regard to Iraq but clearly other people do.

quote:
I find it hard to believe you would support the vandalism actions of one of them.


I don’t in this case, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t in the future and I don’t believe you’d be adverse to supporting an act of vandalism for the right cause either. I can see you now Mike heaving boxes of tea into Boston Harbour given the right circumstances - you little vandal you.

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73 posted 09-02-2008 08:17 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Alison, the questions and issues I brought up are the same as those a lot of informed people are asking about Sarah Palin.

My first post in the thread went to the heart of the issue, what a lot of those informed people believe, that Sarah Palin, regardless of what state she’s from, simply is NOT qualified for the VP slot. I then made a droll joke about her fashion sense.

In my next post I mentioned that she was being investigated for a possible ethics violation. It’s  the Alaska Legislature, not me, not the Dems, but your own Alaska Legislature that’s investigating her. And that investigation started before she was selected by McCain. I also highlighted the fact that she has zero national and foreign policy experience.

If you check your own first post you’ll see you over reacted to the fashion sense joke, didn’t even address the issue of her experience at all and not once, as in a typo, but twice misspelled Palin’s name, a good indication to me that you really hadn’t read much about Palin, that perhaps indeed it was you who had been relying on sound bites rather than extensive reading in order to form an opinion on Palin’s qualifications.

You then went on to state regarding the ethics violation investigation, that it had been “pretty much been determined that she hasn't” done anything “wrong”.  That was VERY misleading and it’s simply not true. The investigation is ongoing and isn’t expected to conclude until October 31, just days before the election.

Though you keep protesting you want to see discussion on her merits and the issues, you keep avoiding them and instead go all defensive about the Alaskan life style.

You may be “fiercely proud” of Sarah Palin, but that simply doesn’t cut it when it comes to whether or not she’s qualified to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

Anyway, I’m off to work. Have a wonderful day!

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74 posted 09-02-2008 08:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Personally I think there’s a point where civil unrest is justifiable and yes, even vandalism, I don’t think that point has been reached with regard to Iraq but clearly other people do.

Which makes it acceptable or excusable? So, if Joe Schmoe down the street decided to come up and heave bricks through my window because he is against the Iraq war, you think it's ok because he justifies it in his mind?

vandalism and general lawlessness should be condoned or condemned is an interesting question. I think it depends largely on your political views,

General lawlessness and vandalism can be right or wrong depending on political views? It might be interesting in your mind but all i can  say is "You can't be serious."

For instance protesters promoting civil unrest to end the Vietnam war are seen as both heroes and villains depending on the above perspectives.

I can recall no protestors then who went around damaging other people's property that were seen as heroes.

I can see you now Mike heaving boxes of tea into Boston Harbour given the right circumstances

hehe...you sure can! What you can't see is me going through the town breaking people's windows, stealing the wheels off their carriages and breaking into their houses to steal THEIR tea to take down and throw into the harbor.

These people were not protesting the Iraq war by demonstrating against the government. They were protesting whatever they were protesting bycausing personal damage randomly to victims who had little or nothing to do with the Iraq war. They were acting as thugs and gangsters, little more. There are fews things I've posted here which I felt were not debatable but this is certainly one of them.....and yet you debate it. Sorry, I can't either understand or accept your justifications.
 
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