How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Gimmick or genius?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Gimmick or genius?

  Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


25 posted 08-30-2008 10:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Sunshine,

           I'm listening. I'm looking out for information and I'm looking for decent sources for it.  I'm mostly wandering around LA right now in my free time asking folks how they think the country is doing economically because I promised Balladeer I do so.  I figure as a Liberal it's part of my principles to be skeptical of my own point of view as well as everybody else's, and I'm giving this a shot.

     I started out most of a year back feeling pretty good about Senator McCain and willing to say so in these pages, and I said why at the time.  I felt the man was willing to be honest in his beliefs, even if they went against the grain in his party, and so I was willing to be a bit more giving in some of the ways I looked at his thoughts about taxation and other issues, as long as there was some sense that the man had a strong core of principle.  That appealed to me.

     Since then he's gone back on the positions that he held on torture and human rights that I felt to be fundamental to my sense of his courage as a politician.  I think that he's become more and more unwilling to look at the advice of the professional military folks in terms of the war in the middle east and his notion of diplomacy, which once seemed to be a strong point, now sounds more and more like the point of view of the man he ran against in the last election.  I have saddened.

     I wait to hear more solid information about this Vice Presidential Nominee.  I want to hear more, and I need to hear more.

     But Sunshine, while I am trying to take time to look at Go. Palin (is she related to Michael Palin?) for more than ten minutes of sound bytes, I would feel considerably more refreshed had I heard you say something of the sort when the various uncalled-for comments about Senator Obama, his wife, his daughters and his choice for vice-presidential nominee came up.  Reciprocity would be less effort to return.

     And I would appreciate it if you or others with more conservative points of view than mine could offer me some places that they felt offered good solid information that did a fair job in outlining governor Palin's history and what they felt to be her qualifications for the job too.  While I do understand Ringo's urge to empty the magazine when some question of the comparative qualifications of Senator Obama and Governor Palin come up, I  have trouble understanding why he wouldn't anticipate Jennifer's response and instead have tried to give a more thoughtful answer.  I myself was twice a Bluebird and three times a Robin in second grade, yet most people would find that any attempt to list these honors (as I've just done) would be a tad overblown, given that I was a Kappa Phi Sigma in College.

     Also wow.  A local frat.

     So what do I want and what does Ringo want and what does J.M. want for qualifications for a President and for a Vice President, and exactly how well are we having our expectations met by the parties we feel loyalties to?  I want new Voices and Change, and I want Experience as well, and I'm not entirely sure of how I want those qualities divided up.  How about you, Ringo?  How about you, Sunshine?  JM, what about you?

     I'm a Democrat, yes; and a Liberal, too, and so what?

     These are issues that go beyond parties, I think.  As is the respect that Sunshine was asking for?  As is the research that Balladeer was asking me to do.  It has to do with us as people looking at the people around us, and asking questions as people rather than as members of particular parties, but as citizens of a country (for those of us who are American) and as basic human beings (for those of us who are everything including American).  Grinch and Moonbeam have some potentially interesting things to contribute.  I enjoy hearing what Mr. Byski has to say.

     I will be quiet.

Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


26 posted 08-30-2008 10:48 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Waves Hi again to Balladeer.   Flustered? Not really. A little shocked by McCain's obvious lack of judgement in choosing a running mate perhaps.

Anyway, no need to wait for sound bites,  Palin’s history and positions on the issues I mentioned are a matter of record and readily available on the internet. They’re easily accessible to anyone who knows how to use a computer. Pity McCain doesn’t or he might have chosen someone actually qualified to fill the slot.

Oh she's the right choice for sure, no doubt about that, Balladeer. Now that all eyes are focused on her, voters won't even notice Gramps McSame nodding off on the campaign trail. Brilliant strategy, no?  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


27 posted 08-30-2008 11:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hehehe....the claws are out. She has you resorting to infantile personal physical insults. I'm really beginning to like this woman!!!
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


28 posted 08-30-2008 11:27 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Don't get your golfing knickers in a twist, Balladeer, they were in the same vein as your Slick Willy and peanut farmer jokes.

Night night. Oh, and the good news is I'm off for two days. Carry on as best you can.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


29 posted 08-30-2008 11:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Send the big hair hockey Mom back to moose country!

Let's see...you insult her physically, hockey moms in general and a state, all in one fell swoop. Please don't compliment me by saying I'm on your level. I don't deserve the honor!

Have a fun two days....
JenniferMaxwell
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 09-14-2006
Posts 2275


30 posted 08-30-2008 11:48 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Don't be so humble, of course you do.
Bye bye, see ya Tuesday.
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


31 posted 08-31-2008 01:31 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

I have been thinking about the past VP's that this country has had.  We all know what a fine group that they have made up.  

Let's a see a VP who shot his friend.  Well the AK Governor is a good shot so she passed that test.  A VP who claims to have invented the internet.  Hmmm, that's a bit of a stretch but it is hard to give up those fleeting moment of fame.  The AK Governor hasn't claimed to invent anything - maybe we can email her suggestions.  Has anyone claimed inventing HD TV yet?  That one might be good for her.  Oh, and then we had the VP who could not spell "potato" - well, we all know thanks to Jennifer that the AK Governor can not pronounce nuclear.  So there is hope after all!  She may find a place in national politics afterall.  The bar hasn't been set that high for VP's.

But, hey - she doesn't have to really polish her laurels yet.  She is simply on the ticket.

Oh, and I am sure she has remained ignorant about Iraq.  Most mothers have who have sons serving or on their way are totally ignorant about Iraq.  I am sure that she would not have used her position to learn all she can while commanding the Alaska National Guard.  She has far too much on her hands fixing that 80's hairstye and picking out which pearls she should wear with her newest piece polar fleece.

Oh and yes that investigation.  What was that all about again?  Oh, yes, I remember.  Let's see a State Trooper who tasered his stepson, threatened her father's life and was caught drinking alcohol in his Trooper vehicle.  I am feeling so much safer knowing that he is still out there protecting Alaskans from those who can not control their tempers.

Yep, and lets see the polar bear.  Well, you all know that Alaskans are not concerned with the wildlife in Alaska.  If it were not for the Feds we would have slaughtered them all long ago and have had their hides keeping our dogs warm at night.  Wasn't the issue really that Alaska is sueing for the rights to manage its fish and game.  Isn't that why we have an AK Fish and Game?  Guess not.  I guess that is a welfare program for biologists.  Are we concerned about diminishing pack ice?  Probably more than most of you who are debating the Governor's merit.  After all it is our back yard.  It is our home.

Oh and let's not forget ANWR?  It has a footprint smaller than LAX.  Makes you wonder, doesn't it?  But Alaskans have no environmental concerns.  Drilling for oil and mining is right up there with killing all the wildlife.  Do it.  Oh wait.  We just took the mining issue to the ballot - and we will again.  (Gasp) Everyone does NOT support potentially polluting clean water???  Heck no!  Kill and pollute - that is why God invented guns and pipelines!

Yep, we are all too stupid up here to know that our Governor has opinions.  And we will just roll over and let her put her plans in place.  Yep.  She looks good you know .. that is why we have the notorious bumper sticker "Alaska - coldest state, hottest governor"  She has no sense of humor over that at all - none.

Speaking of hot looking.  I agree with Jennifer that our Governor needs a makeover.  Maybe she can find an interesting nose like Clinton's.  Or get Hillary's helmet hair look.  Or .. well we all know how attractive Washington politicians are.  Yep, we need to get her decked out.  Maybe we can use that excess fur from killing all the animals.

C'mon, Jennifer.  Alaskans are not stupid.  We can google as well as you can, but we have things to do.  We also believe that Governor Palin can defend herself and will do so quite well.  Will she become VP - dunno.  Who am I voting for? What is my stance on Pro Choice?  What is my stance on censor?  Sorry - none of that is your business.  I didn't ask for your beliefs or opinions.  I simply asked you to base your arguements on fact and what you know.  Not what you googled between posting.

Alison
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


32 posted 08-31-2008 01:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Alison,

          I understand you're steamed.  Got it.

      I also asked if anybody had any good and reasonably unbiased resources for information on Governor Palin so that I wouldn't be at the mercy of sound bytes.  If you can calm down enough to try to steer me someplace you feel might have some unbiased information, I'd appreciate it.  You seem to be upset that outsiders don't understand; as an outsider, I'm asking for some help in finding places that you feel would help me understand the way you think things actually are there with the Governor there, in the state, so I have a better idea what to make of her.  Out here.  Outside the state.

      Whether I'll end up agreeing with you or not, I have no idea, but I want to understand the things that you see and I can't.  If possible, and it's not too much trouble.

Sincerely, Bob Kaven
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


33 posted 08-31-2008 02:07 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Actually, Bob, I am not as much upset as amazed at how Alaska is perceived by so many in the Lower 48.  

I am happy to provide you with some links. Most Alaskans read the Anchorage Daily News for indepth information regarding politics.  The link is http://www.adn.com/   The Governor's State of Alaska web page is http://gov.state.ak.us/   You might also check out the Juneau Empire.  Juneau is the capital of Alaska and is where the Governor lives.  The link is http://www.juneauempire.com

I am not angry as much as very tired of people making issues out things that they know nothing about.  Like the Governor or not; vote for McCain or not - I am not overly concerned - but is the fact that she hunts for sport an issue?  Is her hair an issue?  Don't demean her before she has a chance.  There's plenty of time for that - let's wait and see what she says.  She'll put her foot in her mouth, and give everyone lots of opportunites to belittle her.  She's human.  No point in jumping the gun!

If people don't like her politically - great.  Let's remember that she has achieved a lot.  She hasn't made it this far because she is stupid.  

Anyway, I was poking fun in my last post because I can Google too.  It's no great skill - reading, understanding and researching takes more time than twenty-four hours.

Alison
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


34 posted 08-31-2008 02:52 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

You know when I read moonbeam's question last night, I sat back and thought about it.  Honestly, I am as surprised as anyone by McCain's choice.  I also wonder what he based his decision on to make Palin his running mate.  She is a woman of action.  She has the respect of most Alaskans.  But, I doubht that those were the reasons.

I think that Alaska is not that different from the rest of the country.  When Governor Murkowski was defeated in his bid for a second term as Alaska's Governor, the people elected Sarah Palin.  Why?  We were tired of being lied to.  We were tired of political deception.  We were suspicious of slick politicians.  Sarah Palin went on to win the bid for Governor and, in the process, defeated yet another previous Alaskan Governor.  She is the first woman Governor in Alaska and, for the most part, has done well.

But, enough about Alaska.  

Maybe the nation is ready for a change from deception too.  Maybe people are tired of professional politicians.  Maybe there is a huge feeling of distrust.  Maybe we are being shaken out of our apathetic attitudes.  Obama and Palin are making strides in breaking down some barriers that have not been broken before.

Is this a gimmick?  Who cares. People are interested.  People are reading and researching and thinking of how they will cast their votes.  Maybe we will have an election turn-out for once.  Maybe we will find that experience and inexperience actually can mesh.  Maybe there is a glimmer of hope in a process that claims to be for everyone.  Perhaps that hope is that the United States political process is actually for everyone.  Maybe politicians will understand that they are being held accountable.

This is an exciting time.  I hope people do become angry, amazed, upset, happy, and whatever emotions it takes to get them to the polls and express their opinions through the election process.

G'nite all.

A
Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


35 posted 08-31-2008 03:03 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
Oh please, nothing like skewing a list to try to make your point, Ringo.

Honestly, I did a Google search for both candidates, and got the list for Gov. Palin from her official site and from wiki (not the best, I know). For Sen. Obama, I checked his official site, his Senate site, his campaign site, and a few others to get this list... what skewing? This is what I was able to find after giving him more time than her. I did find more information that I would ever be able to read about his position on the issues that he states are important to him, just nothing on his leadership roles in any capacity.
To be fair to Sen. Obama, I didn't (with my short search) find much about the issues that she says are important to her... except the environment, which is a strange thing to hear a Republican say. Then again, Sen. McCain has also spoken about saving the environment, so maybe it is a decent match.

quote:
I'm sure her being the head of the Christian Fellowship of Athletes is really going to put the fear of God into countries like Russia and Iran.

Most VP's do NOTHING to instill fear into the so called "rogue nations". It wasn't George Bush v1.0 that got the Soviets to tear down the wall; It wasn't Walter Mondale that the Iranians thumbed their nose at by taking the American Embassy. I am sure that Sadam Hussein didn't even know Dan Quayle's name... Neither Dick Biden nor Sarah Palin are going to do much to put the fear of G-d into these place, either.


What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?. www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


36 posted 08-31-2008 09:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Alison, you have now officially become my favorite human on the planet! I may go after your poems once in a great while but your responses here are inviolate.

Bob, good friend Bob, I thought my eyes were deceiving me. YOU? Asking for links?? The linkmaster supreme who can come up with a link faster than Clinton can drop his trousers over any points being discussed at any time asking where one can find information on the internet??

Only funning with you, Bob, although I do find it a touch amusing. Perhaps if you type PALIN or ALASKA or ALASKAN POLITICS in your search engine you may find some info. If you want to find negatives type in PALIN DEMOCRATIC CRITICISMS and you will have your fill.

Speaking of links, I hear moose links are especially tasty for breakfast.

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


37 posted 08-31-2008 11:18 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

(Quick aside to BobK:

This:
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum28/HTML/002315.html#15

was the "destination" discussion I was referring to in CA.)

...........
quote:
I am not overly concerned - but is the fact that she hunts for sport an issue?

Yes Alison for me it is.  

As an "outsider" (if there is in fact such a position in this world today) I've tried to divine the qualities of the people involved in these nominations.  There's been a lot of chatter here about the "qualifications" for president and VP.  Posters have listed past achievements and even the various committees the prospective candidates have had the misfortune to serve on!  In my view all this is a waste of time.  The guy or gal who is appointed President or VP will have more admin, professional and advisory backup than most of the leaders of the rest of world put together, he or she needs one central quality; that of "leadership".  

The incumbent does not have it.  He's about as inspirational as a cross-eyed ferret.  I think America is therefore really very ready for a President who will have that combination of oratorical skills and the ability to inspire, encourage, enthuse and perhaps most important of all the quality desired by Solomon "a understanding heart"; the wisdom to judge men fairly and truly.

Good leaders are fast learners.  All the so called experience in the world, all the qualifications in the world won't entirely make up for a mentality that isn't able to grasp, sort, analyse and act at high speed.  In fact there is an argument to say that too much experience in a particular area might actually hamper a would be successful leader of a whole nation.

There's a saying over here in the UK:  "He's a good committee man" - it's an example of damning with faint praise, and really means: "He's a plodder, a stooge" - great at implementing others' plans, good at consulting, discussing - not an innovator.  The next President should not be this.  In contrast, he should be able to "grasp the moment", turn disadvantage to advantage, have the moral character to do what is "right" and the persuasive force to take people along with him down that path.

Given the above, anyone who has watched Obama over the last months and still thinks he is not leadership material is sadly deluded.  His achievements to date, and the manner in which he conducts himself in public are more than enough proof that the material is there.

I've heard it said that leadership is more than just fancy speeches.  Sure it is, but oratory style and delivery is more important than some realize.  One poster here ignorantly made a comparison between Obama and Hitler, I think intending to be insulting to Obama.  The irony is that Hitler was one of the most successful leaders of the 20thC, and the basis of his early success was an ability to carry large numbers of people with his powers of rhetoric.  

Such power, and indeed the other powers of a born leader, can obviously be used for good or ill.  At this very early stage in the careers of both Obama and Palin all we can do is attempt to look at any moral indicators the might be emerging.  What one of us feels is important morally others may feel is less so - so all that follows is my own personal view based upon my own personal moral outlook.

Returning, Alison, to the question you mooted that I pasted at the top, the point is that Obama clearly is a leader and Palin admittedly looks to me very much as though she may have leadership qualities too (despite the fact that so far its only been Alaska ).  So assuming that to be the case we must move on and try to look as deeply as possible into the person, to try and determine the morals that might guide them.  

And yes Alison for me, (based upon person experience time end time again) the fact that someone is prepared to put a gun to their shoulder and fire a piece of hot metal into the warm living flesh of another defenceless being to kill or maim it in order to derive pleasure from the act, is a very material consideration in determining whether they are fit to lead a nation.

I have similar concerns about people who place the "rights" of a newly fertilized human embryo in advance of the possible lifelong agony that might be suffered by a young girl raped and then forced to carry something hateful to her to term.  There's a deal of laughable religious mumbo jumbo mixed up in this extreme "pro-life" stance which gives me even greater concern about people who subscribe to it.

The freedom of anyone to commit to anyone else in a form of "marriage" ceremony is another issue I look at when assessing character.  God knows there are few enough people wanting to express their love in a lifelong commitment these days, so it seems to me both cruel and shortsighted not to allow people to do so.  Yet another area though where mainstream religion tends to stick its dark oar in.

Finally, this whole thing of "using" family and children for political ends unsettles me.  I am not saying that Palin is going to do this, but the signs don't look too good.

These are for me some of the moral indicators to deep character, and right now Palin doesn't do well in any area.  I hear what you say Alison about Palin not forcing her views on the populace of Alaska (stunningly beautiful country btw ), but the problem is that she is what she is, and the higher people rise in power the more the focus will shift from what they DO to what they ARE.  (I could go on about our own experience recently with Gordon Brown, but I don't have time).  

You are right though, the jury's out on both Obama and Palin (where's McCain in all this!  His "gimmick" sure worked!), and I'm willing if my facts are wrong to change my mind, but right now I know who I'd rather have in charge, and it's not the lady from Alaska with the shotgun to her shoulder!

But, not to be outdone by the fair Mike, you are officially one of my top favourite people in the universe Alison - after Jenn and the gorgeous Grinch of course .

M

oops, and Karen!
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


38 posted 08-31-2008 11:28 AM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

I perfer my moose sausage in the patty form.  I have some cooking up now if you want to come on by for breakfast, Balladeer.  Later we can eat some dried fish and have moose sticks for a snack.  And for dinner tonight?  How about King steaks with a side of Moose filet?

A
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


39 posted 08-31-2008 12:00 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

M

I'll be back to read your post later, but I am going to respond to the sport hunting quote now.  I had just typed out a post about that very issue and deleted it before I saw your post.

Here goes again -

There are different types of hunting licenses in Alaska.  There is the subsistance hunting license. Then we have sport hunting licenses.  Sport hunting license are what the majority of Alaskans purchase to hunt.  

I grew up around hunters.  I have been on hunting trips.  While I have never shot a moose, I have helped skin and pack moose.  I also eat moose and other wild game.

Sport hunting is not about going out to find heads to put on den walls.  It is about filling freezers with healthy food.  It's about managing game.  It's about personal prefernces.  It's also regulated and very managed.

Fishing is no different.  I was out in the middle of nowhere a few years ago sport fishing with friends.  We were on a small boat in the middle of a lake when a plane landed.  We tried to get out of the way of the plane and it kept approaching us.  Come to find out, it was Fish and Game checking the size of our Rainbows.  

People are flying, boating, and watching how animals are hunted.  We use what we hunt.  Of course there are exceptions, but that is not what we are talking about when we talk about the average "sport" hunter in Alaska.

FYI, moose is tasty.  It's a lean meat and very healthy.  It's not all that easy to shoot one when people go out hunting because they are smart.  Maybe that is the sport of it all.  

When moose are hit by cars and killed, the meat is salvaged and eaten.  

People don't live up here because we don't appreciate the beauty of animals and scenery.  We live up here for those reasons.  

So, M, for the record, I laughed when I read the issue of sport hunting.  The sport of hunting is being in a beautiful area, waking up on a misty morning and going to a tree stand or walking a perimeter, smelling the fall air, seeing animals that are incredible to watch.  Maybe watching a cow moose duck in and out of the woods as she hears boats - and being amazed that one moment she stands out and the next she is watching from a creek bank and no one knows she is there.  It's about beauty.  It's about enjoying nature. And maybe it's about bringing home food for the winter.

Now, I know this is hunting issue is not unique to Alaska.  Hell, I was in Maine one fall and watched on the news as the first moose was brought in from their hunt.  They had to bring it in without even gutting it so it could be weighed.  Not only was it a sad sight (in my opinion), but I also wondered how that impacts the quality of meat.  But know what?  I kind of figured that the State of Maine Fish and Game had that covered.  In my ignorance, I decided that they may have considered my questions - and already found answers to them.

The hunters I know are very aware of animal (and fowl) numbers, how to process what they take so there is no waste, and how to prepare that same animal so it tastes good.

So the Governor has a sport hunting license?  Big deal.

You know, I spent was on assignment once in Washington state, and every day I would drive past a beef slaugher house.  One day I went by as beef was being processed and the stench almost made me vomit.  The sight of the slaughter house made me ill.  Now, in my mind, if you want to talk about killing defensless animals, maybe we should look at how we breed, raise, slaughter and process meat that is USDA approved and sold at your local store.

I ask you, M?  Do you find this as objectionable?  Are you one of those devout vegetarian type who does not eat meat, or meat by products?  Do you shun leather, feathers, and anything processed with animal parts?  If so, then by all means, please talk on about putting a bullet into an animal who can't defend itself.  Otherwise, excuse me while I go and try to choke back my laughter at your comment.

The other issue is Palin's family.  If anyone is bringing them to the forefront it is people like you.  She has a family.  She has a special needs baby.  She has five children.  Hell, we didn't even know she was pregnant with her last child until her last month or so of pregnancy.  Yes her child has Downes.  Are you insinuating that she is going to exploit that fact for political gain?  What is she going to do exactly?  Pimp out her children for photo opportunities?

You know, I believe in the right to choose which candidate is right.  I believe that Palin has a lot to learn - and might not even be the right one to be on the VP ticket.  But, the fact that she is there does not mean that she doesn't deserve a chance.  

You are speculating on what can be based on what?  That you are an Obama supporter?  Hell, as far as you know, I might be an Obama supporter.  I have not said who I support.

I am not asking anyone to change their vote or agree with McCain.  I am asking you to base your arguements on knowledge.  The issue of sport hunting is not an issue to me.  It's not an issue to people who understand what it means. The issue of Palin's family was simply a cheap shot.

If I am missing anything else that you asked me or commented to me, let me know.  I think I have said about all I have to say in this thread, but I have enjoyed 'talking' with you.

A
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


40 posted 08-31-2008 12:09 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

PS - backatcha on the personal comment at the end of your post.  I don't base my likes and dislikes of people on whether they agree with me or not and my ego is large enough to accept that I am always right. It's my personal crown of thorns, but I strive to live under the shadow that I cast and all.

moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


41 posted 08-31-2008 12:33 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam



quote:
So, M, for the record, I laughed when I read the issue of sport hunting.  The sport of hunting is being in a beautiful area, waking up on a misty morning and going to a tree stand or walking a perimeter, smelling the fall air, seeing animals that are incredible to watch.  Maybe watching a cow moose duck in and out of the woods as she hears boats - and being amazed that one moment she stands out and the next she is

dead?

Sorry Alison I don't want to be inflammatory here by using humour out of place, but you were chuckling at me .  Anyway you are missing the point totally.  I'm not a vegetarian (yet) and I do use animal parts I am sure - can't think of any right now.  Perhaps I didn't express myself well.  I simply don't understand the mentality (especially the female mentality) that allows people to kill animals purely for ENJOYMENT.

I acknowledge that there's a grey area where the hunted animal is subsequently eaten or the body parts usefully used.  I think then that it's a matter of honesty as to what the primary motive was in killing.  

If Palin "hunts" as our pheasant shooters over here hunt then that in my book is obscene.  It may be that she confines herself to slaughtering the occasional moose and eating it, in which case it's more akin to red deer stalking in Scotland, which, though I don't approve of it, is a far cry from taking pot shots at birds and small mammals and leaving them maimed to die slowly in the woods.

Yes sure I'm speculating - I said I was.  I'm simply trying to assess on the basis of what I read and hear what the characters of the various candidates maybe and whether they fit my idea of a "moral" person preferably before they get their sticky mitts on the red button!  I take it you don't have a problem with that?!

No, the issue of family was not a "cheap shot".  It's a serious point (based on what I've observed first hand over here) and one which I'll elaborate on if you're interested when I have more time.

Good chatting Alison.



M
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


42 posted 08-31-2008 03:38 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

M darlin',

It all comes down to purely a difference of opinion.  You know, I have yet to meet a hunter who claps and jumps up and down when discussing the actual kill.  It's not something that I can explain.  It's like when a big halibut is shot (yes, they often are shot) - there's a feeling that goes with it.  There's pride to catch a big fish, there's the thrill of reeling it in, and there's sadness that it has to end with a bullet.  But, it happens.  It's part of the package.  Hunting is a package and the enjoyment stems from all parts of it.  The people that I know pride themselves on beng good shots and not making an animal suffer.  

That is the line in my mind.  Do I believe in chasing animals down with airboats, 4-wheelers, or snowmachines to kill them?  No.  Do I believe in wounding it and letting it go?  No.  Do I believe in killing an animal for sport and leaving the meat?  No.  All of these things are also against the law.

I don't know about where you are from, but in the US wildlife is often managed.  There are so many caribou allowed to be harvested, so many bear, so many moose, etc.  We can't kill moose with calves and mostly are allowed to hunt bulls.  Animals need so much space to survive.  M, I am so much happier with the thought of someone shooting a number of them and keeping a population healthy then watching them starve.  Now that to me is natural, but it's cruel.  I don't want moose in my yard dying.  And yes, in years of heavy snow or extreme cold they die.  

I would rather people enjoy the package of hunting, then go out to simply slaughter animals.  It happened recently up here.  A huge number of caribou slaughtered, wounded and left to die with calves trying to nurse off dead cows.  That made everyone ill.  Sport does not always mean 'fun' - it can mean 'fair'.  That kill was not sporting (or sportsmanlike) - and that is not how anyone I know hunts.

Alaska is a place like few know.  I can't explain attitudes in a little box like this.  I don't understand fox hunting.  I think it is an abomination - and I don't see how a modern country can continue such a practice.  That's my opinion - I don't judge the Queen.

A
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


43 posted 08-31-2008 04:27 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
That's my opinion - I don't judge the Queen

Well you ought to!  The idea that rank, station or wealth should protect from criticism is ludicrous.  Fox hunting is barbaric and anyone who does it barbaric imo.

Anyway, it sounds as if some of your hunting is similar to what we call "culling" over here.  

There are culls and culls.  Like I said before it comes down to a question of honesty.  A need for a cull can be conveniently "created" by man in order to preserve valuable shooting rights or a trophy market.  The need for "wildlife management" is sometimes generated deliberately over here by the policies of gamekeepers.  It's a difficult judgement call, because ultimately the "need" to cull or control numbers is usually down to man's intervention (i.e. it's man's fault).  For instance commercial tree planting increased the cover and food supply for red deer in Scotland not so long ago.  The hunting fraternity couldn't cope with the increases, so the forestry commission herded them against deer fences using helicopters and machine gunned them. (LOL just noticed the grammatical slip there - hilarious).


In your part of the world I'm guessing that some action of man has caused a periodic imbalance in herbivores.  Perhaps you have reduced predator numbers or taken away some of the traditional grazing.  Now man "has" to intervene in the form of your wildlife management to "correct" the balance. Like I say, it's a difficult area, and I accept that there are occasions when shooting cleanly is the best solution.  That's not the type of shooting I'm really condemning.  

Thanks again for the discussion.

M
Alison
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 01-27-2008
Posts 9055
Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy!


44 posted 08-31-2008 05:50 PM       View Profile for Alison   Email Alison   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alison

Thank you.  The hunting you describe is not part of my lifestyle or the lifestyle of responsible Alaskans.  This is not to say that we don't have our atrocities.  We do (recent slaughter of caribou).  It happens and we have responsibilities to try to ensure it does not happen again.

It's amazing how animals have adapted to our urban areas.  Bear and moose are common sights in Anchorage which is the largest city in Alaska.  Yes, man has encroached on lands that animals once inhabited, but animals are smart.  Moose often perfer sleeping and walking on paved roads rather then fighting through snow drifts.  They love the buffets of old gardens and ornamental trees.  Bear love garbage and wolf often are attracted by dogs on chains and dogruns.

Sarah Palin is married to a man who is part Yupik Eskimo.  Hunting is a part of his culture.  Most Eskimos and Indians that I know respect the land and the animals that inhabit it.  I doubt sincerely that he, or his wife, go out to indiscrimately slaughter anything.  I would bet my bullets on the fact that what they hunt is eaten and used.

It's a different world here.  That is something that really needs to be understood when looking at the Governor.  This is a bittersweet time in my mind.  Alaska has the chance to come to the Nation's forefront and, hopefully, help people understand the lifestyle here; but, some of those same people may want to move up here.  

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to attempt to clear up some misconceptions about sport hunting.

A
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


45 posted 08-31-2008 07:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, moonbeam, I know how the British value communication. I saw Oxford Blues several times   Seriously, that is a great movie to illustrate that fact.

Given the above, anyone who has watched Obama over the last months and still thinks he is not leadership material is sadly deluded.

Consider me one of the deluded. What I have seen of Obama over the past months is his being basically forced to turn his back on his minister, his business partners and his friends, all because of their personal issues - the minister for being a blatant racist damning the United States, his business partner, fund-raising co-ordinator, and man responsible for Obama's sweetheart real estate deals becoming a convicted felon, and his pal being one the Weathermen, responsible for bombings against the U.S., who said as late as 2001 that he was sorry they didn't do a better job of destruction. These have been his friends and inspiration.Are those the friends of this honest, moral figure you believe the President of the United States should be. In Spanish the saying is, "Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are." I'd say they have it right.

What I have seen of Obama over the past few months is a man willing to shift positions on any topic, depending on who he was talking to at the time. As one cartoonist so aptly points out...




Can you really see  Obama in discussions with Putin or Islamic leaders, people who are not dazzled by brilliance or baffled by BS? I can't. Will he win? Who knows? Will the United States fall in either case? No. It has survived with good and bad presidents and will continue to do so. Hopefully whoever assumes the office will turn out to be a good one. Personally, I don't see that happening this time.

If you are claiming to be against her because she hunts (Teddy Roosevelt is smiling at that one)  or that she is going to use her family for political ends (although you hedge on that one by stating you don't really know if she is going to do that) then you are just looking for ways to be against her, in which case you will find many, I'm sure. Happy hunting....
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


46 posted 09-01-2008 04:23 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
Can you really see  Obama in discussions with Putin or Islamic leaders, people who are not dazzled by brilliance or baffled by BS? I can't. Will he win? Who knows?


I sure don't Mike.  All I know is that, as someone pretty clueless about US politics, I see a leader in America who fills me with hope when I hear him.  I haven't been able to say that for an awfully long time.  

We have a similar situation with David Cameron over here.  He rocketed into leadership on the basis of one speech at a party conference.  He started out raw and gauche, making gaffes all over, but I heard him this morning on the radio and he's learned fast, he could actually be PM and make a decent job of it imo.

As for what you think I'm doing to Palin, you are making the common mistake of imposing on me what you yourself do.  Specifically what you are doing to Obama.

I thought I explained that I'm not judging the woman (yet).  I'm looking at the same moral indicators I always look for in all leaders, Obama included.  Attitudes to abortion, homosexuality, animals and family I have discovered go to a heart which transcends all the policy claptrap and for me give a clue as to how a person will behave when given great power.  Religion is another, but much more complex and accordingly unreliable.  

To be clear, I am merely assessing on the basis of what I read and hear (including Alison's very useful explanation of hunting in Alaska) whether she is likely to meet my personal criteria for a moral leader.  

Judgement comes much later on the hard evidence of performance.

I suggest you do Obama the same courtesy and quit raising your blood pressure over how he will handle Putin or vice versa.  

M
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


47 posted 09-01-2008 10:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hehe...actually I have lived my life with very low blood pressure, so much so that I cannot even give blood. Imagine how heated up I could get if it were high!

Fair enough. I will wait to see what Obama does. The only thing I can go by now is what I have seen so far. He has made great speeches with all things people want to hear. He has used the "Time for Change" mantra which political parties have used in the past at election time. Several of his speeches have been found to have entire sections plagiarized from political speeches of others in the past. In situations I have seen him in with no notes at hand, he has stumbled badly trying to answer questions or make his points. He comes across as a used car salesman to me. Is he a bad fellow? No, I don't think so at all. I think he's just trying to make a sale. When asked for specifics about the changes he plans to make, he avoids them. He speaks of creating an America of the past, where everyone has health insurance, where people do not lose their jobs, where there is no poverty, where people can feel safe walking down streets, where there is a chicken in every pot, etc, etc, etc.. those are wonderful things to hear but they are not real. In the first place, America has never been that way and neither has any other country, I believe. There will always be a level of poverty, people will always lose jobs, there will always be haves and have-nots. He speaks of a grand economy he will create but is careful to stay away from specifics.

I can understand how his speeches could fill ayone with hope. They say what the people want to hear. So do the tv evangelists that tell you so send in your dollars and you will be saved. So do the "Make Millions in Real Estate" gurus who come to your town and tell you that you, too, can be rich beyond your wildest dreams by working less than an hour a day.

In another point in history, I could be one of the millions who think, "Well, what the heck. Let's give the kid a shot and see what happens." In this point in history I think that would be a mistake. Would McCain be any less of a mistake? That's the rub..I can't say yes to that, either, but I would feel a small bit better with his attitude and experience over the car salesman's.

As in everything, time will tell. Let's hope the lesson learned is not too expensive..
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


48 posted 09-01-2008 05:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We’re proud of Bristol’s decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support.”


http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/01/palins-17-year-old-daughter-is-pregnant/


Does she also know she, through her mother,
cost McCain his chance to be President?


.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


49 posted 09-01-2008 05:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I doubt she has. As Obama so graciously put it, her situation does not reflect in any way her mother's qualifications. Too bad Obama supporters will not be so gracious...

On a lighter note...

http://www.peteyandpetunia.com/VoteHere/VoteHere.htm
 
  Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Gimmick or genius?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors