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Passions in Poetry

Gimmick or genius?

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moonbeam
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250 posted 09-08-2008 03:21 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam


quote:
If someone attacks your candidate, then it is a personal affront and insult.

Tim, for what it's worth I'd never take a straightforward attack on a political candidate I supported in that way.  What's the point of taking personally comments about someone you don't know personally?

To be clear I don't see the "attacks" made by Jaime in the other threads as only attacks.  They are nearly tantamount to incitements to hatred and racist violence.  

I would object equally vehemently if someone portrayed  Sarah Palin or George Bush as being like Hitler.

Apart from anything else it belittles and sanitizes what Hitler did and was, to use his name in connection with innocent people.  

M
JenniferMaxwell
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251 posted 09-08-2008 12:22 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

The thing that bothers me the most, MB, is that it seems some moderators on this site are either blind to the blatant racism or they condone it. Sorry, but I just can't see any other reason why they'd give those two posts pass. A misplaced comma, oh please, bottom of the barrel in trying to excuse the indefensible.

Mysteria
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252 posted 09-08-2008 12:49 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Tim said ...
quote:
the country is best served by attempting to reconcile our differences and strive to a common goal, the good of the United States of America.


You sure got that right Tim!


I think the best way to see how the moderation of this site is done, is to volunteer and go do it.  It is a great learning experience and one you can't help but take with you into your daily life.

Well I am off to watch Palin on "The View."  
JenniferMaxwell
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253 posted 09-08-2008 05:44 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

If their lips are moving, they're lying, gaffing, misleading or smearing.

"John McCain and Sarah Palin criticized Democrat Barack Obama over the amount of money he has requested for his home state of Illinois, even though Alaska under Palin's leadership has asked Washington for 10 times more money per citizen for pet projects."

Plus, I guess the tutoring didn't go so well, the Hockey Mom fumbled the puck on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

"Speaking before voters in Colorado Springs, the Republican vice presidential nominee claimed that lending giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers." The companies, as McClatchy reported, "aren't taxpayer funded but operate as private companies. The takeover may result in a taxpayer bailout during reorganization."

Back to moose country for a remedial course in Economics 101.

Huan Yi
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254 posted 09-08-2008 08:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Jennifer,

I've already seen effective responses
on National Review before your post.

Stop treating Palin as an idiot bimbo.
She's already put McCain ahead in the polls
which is incredible.

All you're doing is gaining her and McCain
more votes.

John


.
JenniferMaxwell
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255 posted 09-08-2008 08:34 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I thought you wanted McCain to win, Huan. Geez, here I've been busting my typing fingers trying to help you out by getting the knee jerk reacters to vote Palin McCain just because they don't like me and my posts. Now you don't want me to? Way too confusing for this blonde.

Anyway, didn't forget the article you mentioned, it's on my reading list for later tonight.

Huan Yi
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256 posted 09-08-2008 08:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I suppose I want the election
decided by reponses rather than reactions.
Still an idealist.


.
JenniferMaxwell
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257 posted 09-08-2008 09:12 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I agree, Huan. But the way McCain and the Republicans are refusing to let Sarah Palin, an unknown, answer questions or do interviews sure makes it difficult for anyone to become an informed voter. The real issues concerning voters don't seem to matter to them, all they've addressed these last couple of weeks are issues dealing with Sarah Palin's celebrity and personal life.

Tim
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258 posted 09-08-2008 11:34 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"Speaking before voters in Colorado Springs, the Republican vice presidential nominee claimed that lending giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers." The companies, as McClatchy reported, "aren't taxpayer funded but operate as private companies. The takeover may result in a taxpayer bailout during reorganization."

Back to moose country for a remedial course in Economics 101.

I always thought Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were quasi-governmental corporations and are in the position they are because of the subsidies they receive such as non-payment of state and local taxes and the backing of debt by the federal government (taxpayers).

I personally would prefer to see them as private corporations and not as politically operated quasi-governmental agencies.  

I concur with Palin's statement.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are too big and I don't particularly like subsidizing the pockets of politicians with what is ultimately my tax money.  

Don't got no mooses around here, guess I will have to attend a remedial course in prairie dog country.

Tim
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259 posted 09-08-2008 11:39 PM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

"I thought you wanted McCain to win, Huan. Geez, here I've been busting my typing fingers trying to help you out by getting the knee jerk reacters to vote Palin McCain just because they don't like me and my posts. Now you don't want me to? Way too confusing for this blonde."

I agree it is possible one can alienate individuals to the degree they will take the opposite view just show their distaste.

Both ends of the political spectrum are unfortunately fairly adept at this tactic.

I suspect the more normal reaction from those who reside in the middle is to just ignore the far left and far right realizing personal prejudices can outweigh any desire to consider both sides of an issue.

Bob K
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260 posted 09-09-2008 02:23 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Tim,

           I share your confusion here, but my understanding is that they are private companies that the government can't afford to have fail.  If they do fail the shareholders go bust and the influx of money into to mortgage markets dries up.  Nobody can afford to buy a home.  The real estate market collapses.  Banks, which hold massive amounts of paper in home loans, can't get rid of these now bad debts which means that banks threaten to collapse on a massive scale, possibly larger than the government can cover.

     From that point things begin to look less than rosy.

     Fannie and Freddie, if that is indeed how you spell them, were private.  They have been bailed out, but nobody knows what the cost will be.  I suspect the tax cuts may have gone in part to fuel a speculative real estate bubble, but to be straight with you, that's really simple Liberal paranoia talking in advance of any information I have to back it up.  I could just as easily be 180 degrees off, and at this point I couldn't tell you.

quote:


I always thought Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were quasi-governmental corporations and are in the position they are because of the subsidies they receive such as non-payment of state and local taxes and the backing of debt by the federal government (taxpayers).




     Until the point Fannie and Freddie have been stockholder owned companies.  The current government intervention means that the taxpayers have essentially bought preferred stock in both companies and have taken over the management of both boards (as I understand it).  If either or both companies actually go belly up at this point, the U.S. taxpayers get first rights at the assets left after bankruptcy, and the current stockholders divide up whatever's left after the taxpayers get paid off.  The current stockholders are not happy, but they're happier than they'd be if they were allowed to die outright.

     What you've brought up here, indirectly, though, is the nature of the sweetheart deals the government has worked out with favored businesses.  You mention it in terms of tax forgiveness or loopholes for state and local levies for quasi-governmental businesses.  On the left wing we call it corporate welfare, and it beggars anything offered to the poor or middle class.  Can you say, "Oil Depletion Allowance."  Can you consider the tax cuts to  the super-rich.  You might try looking at the Office of Budget Management investigations of contracts passed out after Hurricane Katrina to have a look at who got them and at what the bidding process was like.  

     Near as I can tell, this sort of thing is never wonderful, no matter which administration is involved; but the Republican administrations really should be looked at through objective eyes.  I urge you NOT to look at specifically left wing sources for your data here, and, of course, give the righties a pass as well, but simply look for the most objective clear reporting you can find.

     It's late, I'm rambling, and I may be getting boring.  Thanks for staying with me this long.

Best, Bob Kaven

Tim
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261 posted 09-09-2008 08:06 AM       View Profile for Tim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Tim

chuckling here, because I suspect not only the far right, but the majority of folks call it corporate welfare.

I think if you look at the comments of our leaders on the left, they refer to the mess as a bipartisan effort.

It may be because the situation was put on the fast track for disaster by Andrew Como (last name sounds familiar) and the board of directors (who were and are a who's who Clinton administration officials).

This one pretty much lays at the feet of Congress.

But there is clearly enough blame to go around for both sides of the aisle.
Bob K
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262 posted 09-09-2008 09:56 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Tim,

           I don't know.  At this point I'm uneducated about the whole thing.  The Andrew Como business was news to me, for example.  I just found out from NPR that the Fannie and Freddie companies were in fact some sort of hybrid chartered through the government with special enabling legislation to allow consumers decent access to 30 year fixed rate loans.  Insofar as I know, though, the investors were still private.  As I find out new stuff I'll post it.  If I go down wrong alleys, I'll correct myself as best I can.  How about you, too?

     And what's the latest from the Oz of the election campaign?

Bob Kaven
Ron
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263 posted 09-09-2008 11:03 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Attack the post,
NOT the poster.


For nearly ten years, the above sentence has been the guiding philosophy behind not just The Alley but, indeed, all of pipTalk. And in all of that nearly ten years, no other thread has so egregiously ignored it.

Within the bounds of good taste, I really don't care what anyone says about a politician. The moment a man or woman decides to run for office, they agree to become a target for criticism. And, yea, that inevitably includes what can only be characterized as character assassination. Accuracy isn't a requirement. For political criticism to work at all no one can set themselves up as the sole judge of what is or isn't accurate -- if only because that judge would wield far too much power over the political process. In short, you get to be just as outrageous in your criticisms (or accolades) as you like. It will be up to your audience to decide whether you are someone who deserves their attention.

In my opinion, however, discussion only works when everyone has a voice.

Everyone has to mean everyone, not just those willing to risk a left jab to the jaw or a quick kick to the groin. While politicians implicitly agree to become punching bags, the rest of us have not. Attacking someone because they said something you don't like is little more than bullying. It's never been tolerated here before and it won't be tolerated in the future. It really shouldn't have been tolerated in this thread, and that, I'm afraid, is entirely my fault. There were a lot of good things going on in this thread, including some new voices to the Alley and what I saw as some new ideas, and I was reluctant to impede that. I was wrong, though, to let the good things outweigh the bad. I'm rectifying that mistake today.

Attack the post,
NOT the poster.


That's not necessarily an easy policy to follow, nor is it an easy one to enforce. The line between what someone says and who they are isn't always a clear one. It's nonetheless a line that needs to be drawn.

The moment you start talking about another Member rather than what the Member has said, you've probably crossed that line.

For example, if you want to analyze (or question) someone's motivations for posting, you should probably join a forum for armchair psychiatry. They might accept you as an expert witness; we won't. Feel free, at any time, to disclose your own motivations, but please leave those of other Members out of the discussion. Similarly, while it's perfectly acceptable to reference prior posts of someone, please refrain from trying to characterize those posts in any way that, instead, characterizes the poster. And, please, be careful what you tell another Member to do. Suggesting someone should get their head examined is an obvious attack, but I think many other suggestions are perhaps less obvious, but still very unwelcome, personal attacks on the poster. You can't, for example, tell a person to be fair without simultaneously implying they were previously unfair.

In my opinion, personal attacks are almost always the result of frustration. You disagree vehemently with what someone has said but, for one reason or another, cannot find the best words to counter it. Frustration ensues and, amidst a desperate need to say something, the wrong things are said. It happens every day in the real world, it happens every day across the length and breadth of the Internet. The results of such frustration are pandemic. This, however, is a site dedicated to writers. It's our job to find the best words, not the easiest ones.

It's time, I think, we started taking that job seriously.


 
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