When you use the tone you use here about sleep deprivation, you show you are unaware that it will produce psychosis and death in some circumstances,
Ok. Have you heard of that happening to any Gitmo prisoners or others in Iraq?
Actually, Balladeer, this is part of the problem. There have been reports of deaths in Iraq as a result of the treatment of the prisoners there. Along with the Abu Garib photos is at least one of a soldier giving the ol'
Thumbs Up over a dead body in a body bag. I remind you that none of the Abu Garib people or even the Iraqis at that time were Al Qaeda, so no matter how often they were tortured, they couldn't have given any information about Al Qaeda but lies.
I remind you that any torture of anybody in Iraq for information about Al Qaeda was sick sadistic and useless. There was no information about Al Qaeda in Iraq because Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq. The President knew that. The CIA itself was so uncomfortable about it that they demanded step by step blow by blow orders to proceed; they would have stopped otherwise. Evidently they knew better. So yes, not only have I heard about it in Iraq, but so have you, if you've followed up on the references I've offered so far. If you haven't, why are you asking me for more? I spend time digging these things up, so I know when I say something, I'm actually saying something meaningful.
As for Gitmo, that seems to be part of the problem. Released prisoners do seem to have some reasonably nasty things to say about Gitmo.
Let's start simply:
In this 2005 article from Forbes, the the magazine reports that the United States has fulfilled its responsibility for reporting that it has tortured people in Afghanistan, in Iraq and at Gitmo. The U. N. Thanked the U.S. for fulfilling its obligation to do so.
This following gentleman's letter was declassified in 2007 and was reprinted in The Los Angeles Times. It speaks for itself, is short and to the point:
And here's a short piece from USA today about a guy that Gitmo shipped to an other country to pursue a line of questioning that apparently required the use of a scalpel on the guy's genitals. I don't know if this would fall into the realm of "something happening to a guy at Gitmo" or good old Republican privatization or sub-contracting.
There seem to be a number of articles about this unfortunate guy around recently, so perhaps you could check any questions you have with them.
If you have the stomach for it, Balladeer, you can pursue this line further yourself. There were 67,900 responses to the question "Has the U.S. tortured people at Gitmo?" and I don't think I got more than 20 or 30 entries into it. I skipped over the ones that I thought you find most clearly biased, of course.
I would rather you look through the rest of them, frankly, since I have more than my share of nightmares that come looking for me. I don't think I need to go searching for the details of nightmares to show you.
Have you heard of ANY prisoner being permanently damaged by the "torture" our evil Bush and military has meted out? Me, neither.
The only reason that I can imagine you haven't heard is that you actually haven't looked beyond Fox and Rush Limbaugh and the somewhat limited conservative orbit. I am familiar with those guys, Balladeer. I've listened to them, I've read them and I've thought about them. I continue to do so. It's a point of pride with me.
When Bush and his guys were publicly denying they were torturing people and that torture wasn't their policy, I could understand why you might want to believe them. But now Bush isn't even trying to deny it. In fact, now he's saying that he never denied he was torturing people.
When you try to be funny and sarcastic and talk about the 'evil President Bush," all humor has gone out of it for me. I don't think it's even remotely funny.
Or do you say that maybe we damaged them psychologically with all that abuse? Maybe they have bad dreams, who knows? What a shame that would be.
Actually, Balladeer, one of the things that the constitution does try to protect us against is being at the mercy of people who wish to subject us not to punishment, but to cruelty and cruel punishment and unusual punishment. And to pass such things off cavalierly, "what a shame it would be," is to miss the natureóI believeóof that prohibition.
What I allow to be done without the turn of a hair to my worst enemy is something than can ultimately be done to my child without my having recourse to the support of my fellow citizens. I have already shown with my willingness to begin bargaining them away, starting with the least of them, that they are all expendable to me, and I have no leg to stand on. I have declared we are all despicable to each other on the most basic of levels.
How about the lieutenant who was relieved of duty for firing a pistol over an insurgent's head to get information that prevented an attack on his unit scheduled for the next day?
How about that Lt, Balladeer. I'd really like to meet that man. What was his name? What was his unit? Where was he assigned? Who was his CO? And who gave him his training?
I remember Ronald Reagan talking about a welfare queen, complete with Cadillac during a major policy speech, a real convincing and sincere speech it was, too, except nobody could ever get the Gipper to cough up the name of the lady he was talking about. Never happened. Never was such a lady, but it played well to every Republican club in the country and to everybody who was feeling an economic pinch that there were these people sponging off us, the good folks, and if we could only get Them, then everything would be fine.
So what was that Lt's name, there, Balladeer, I'd like to write him and ask him about his experience and ask him exactly what did happen.
Because, first, this Lt. would have to be able to know that this insurgent was an insurgent and not somebody else. And then your Lt would have to be able to speak enough arabic to be able to ask the question in the first place. And then the Arabic would have to be in the right dialect, because there are a lot of dialect of arabic in the middle east and a guy who speaks one can't necessarily understand another, so it would be an incredible co-incidence that your Lt would know any arabic at all and then happen to know the dialect that your captive spoke and then was fluent enough to make himself understood.
Unless there was one of those interpreters around. Remember those interpreters you were talking about the other day that Bill Clinton didn't fund? Well, it turns out that the Republicans didn't fund them either, actually, so there never were very many of them, and the ones that we did have access to were from Detroit or Buffalo and the FBI and the CIA were somewhat suspicious of them, or they were from IRAQ, and the locals over there were suspicious of them. So the interpreters were very scarce and the Lt's always had a difficult time trusting them, and the interpreters were frequently off doing their own thing, which involved making sure that their former neighbors didn't kill them for spending time with the Americans.
So how did this extraordinary Lt find out that this Iraqi guy was an insurgent and not a shoemaker without anybody to do a decent job of translation, and why aren't you giving me references instead of telling me this story anyway? Huh?
People always talk about this sort of last minute thing. I'd have to look up the reference for you, Balladeer, and I'm truly referenced out right now, but apparently they're very fond of the show 24 at the White House, and even make reference to it when talking about the torture issue sometimes. As though everything about real life was a clear as an episode of 24, and you knew you had the right suspect and you knew you had the right leverage.
I live about six blocks from Hollywood, Balladeer, and they could make you believe even the garbage needs special sauce and should be served under a silver dome.
It hits you just as you step on to those glittery sidewalks.
And am I going to compare the tiger cages in Vietnam to this?
Well, when Donald Rumsfield compares his preference for standing at a desk all day when he can take a break any time he wants for coffee or water or to use the WC to being forced to stand blindfolded on a box with your genitals wired and your arms held out cruciform with the threat that if they dropped you'd be juiced and says He does Stress Positions All Day So What's The Problem Jack (A paraphrase, actually, but with the same basic meaning), why then yes, Balladeer, I do.
Rumsfield; voluntary, is not a prisoner, improves his health, takes breaks when he wishes, free access to water and toilet, may move arms and legs freely and is unrestrained, and is free to make his own schedule, pain is not a factor.
Tiger cages: Not voluntary, is a prisoner, health deteriorates, breaks are at the discretion of captors, water is at the discretion of captors, toileting at discretion of captors, Arm and leg movements are restrained by cage, schedule is at the discretion of captors, pain is extreme factor.
U.S. Captive Held in Stress positions (or any others, for that matter): Not voluntary, is a prisoner, health deteriorates, breaks are at the discretion of captors, water is at the discretion of captors, toileting at discretion of captors, Arm and leg movements are restrained by cage, schedule is at the discretion of captors, pain is extreme factor.
So yes, much more like Tiger Cages than Donald Rumsfield. I remind you, the reason I offer the comparison is because Rumsfield compared his own suffering from his grueling day standing at a desk in an air conditioned building with holding forced stress positions at Gitmo. Not air conditioned. In Cuba.
Yours, Bob K.