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Impeach Bush

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Not A Poet
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25 posted 04-21-2008 09:50 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
As far as the Nobel Prize is concerned, Gore has one, too....so much for the importance of the award.

And I seem to recall that Arafat did too.
Bob K
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26 posted 04-21-2008 11:04 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mr. Fradera,

                 Back to your original question:

quote:


All you people who want to have President Bush impeached and the Bush cabinet prosecuted, by a Sweedish judge in The Hague, for their unspeakable war crimes;
What's taking you so long?




     I think that sufficient actual news coverage and publication of what these people actually did would be an excellent start.  I'm not sure how well revenge works in the end.  But understanding and responsibility can be pretty amazing.  It can change peoples lives.

     It is enormously difficult.  I wish I were good at it.

    

Seoulair
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27 posted 04-22-2008 12:10 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

quote:
And no, his(Carter) visit was not approved by our government.


"through three administration Carter always consulted Washington and provided written reports of his trip.

Baker knew U.S interests would be served because Carter would not hesitate to expose any irregularities if they occurred." page 495  Jimmy Carter by peter G.Bourne


Balladeer
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28 posted 04-22-2008 12:42 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You have read those portions of Carter that somebody with a point to prove wanted you to read.  Those would be what he or she felt would prove his point and show Carter in a poor light.

Regardless of the motive, they are Carter's quoted words. The encyclopedia Americana was not based on someone's prejudice. It consisted of actual figures showing how Carter's presidency sabotaged the economy during his tenure.

Carter has my admiration and applause for the work he has done with Habitat for Humanity. He is much better at something like that than trying to run a country or negotiate with dictators and terrorists.

I have not ignored your CSM links and promise to peruse them as soon as I have time. As you can see from the time of this post, I'm getting home rather late and tomorrow will not be much better but I look forward to reading them.
Bob K
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29 posted 04-22-2008 03:58 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I know, Balladeer.  I think it's remarkable you're as tolerant as you are, actually.  Not that I think I'm so off the wall, but that our views are so widely divergent so often.  Thanks for the effort.  BobK.
Bob K
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30 posted 04-22-2008 10:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Balladeer,

          You do leave me puzzled as to why Gore doesn't deserve a Peace Prize.  You cite his name and expect me to understand immediately, when I guess when actually I don't.

     Also I just noticed that the reason you stated for maintaining your current restricted view of Carter is that you didn't want to spend the money on buying the book.  There are of course people I wouldn't want to support with the money it takes to buy one of their books, though I do confess to buying two of Rush Limbaugh's books because I wanted to see what he had to say.  I suspect you were so steamed about Carter that the library skipped your mind.  You might not want to read him at all really, and simply be happy with the partial information you have now.  There can be things more important in a guy's life, and you'd have every right in the world to draw that line here.

     I suspect what you'd find is a guy who fits some of your  early calls and doesn't fit others; a mixed bag, like most of us.  This one seems to me to have a pretty strong commitment  to peace and human rights, and he was the first president to make human rights a fixture in U.S. foreign policy.  Also he was the first U.S. president to be attacked by a rabbit, whom I am sure was an agent of the massive right wing conspiracy.

     Didn't want you to think I was getting too rational there, Balladeer, though there's probably little danger of that, what with me reminding you of The Russell Crowe movie.  Good book, too.  My best, BobK.
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31 posted 04-22-2008 11:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BobK...puzzled about why Gore doesn't deserve the Peace prize? Oh, let me count the ways...

Gore is a fake. He has little interest in global warming, as evidenced by his own lifestyle, except as a vehicle to further his own image and fortune.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,303525,00.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200702/CUL20070222b.html

You can follow the above links  to find all of the errors in An Inconvenient Truth, no, not errors but intentional misleading information. Also, in a coincidence, I heard on the news today that the footage Gore used of Antartica was not really of Antartica at all but were instead movie footages taken from the movie The Day After Tomorrow. So I looked it up......
http://newsbusters.org/node/20680?q=blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/04/22/abc-s-20-20-gore-used-fictional-film-clip-inconvenient-truth
Gore Used Fictional Video to Illustrate ‘Inconvenient Truth’
.
By Noel Sheppard | April 22, 2008 - 09:53 ET

It goes without saying that climate realists around the world believe Nobel Laureate Al Gore used false information throughout his schlockumentary "An Inconvenient Truth" in order to generate global warming hysteria.

On Friday, it was revealed by ABC News that one of the famous shots of supposed Antarctic ice shelves in the film was actually a computer-generated image from the 2004 science fiction blockbuster "The Day After Tomorrow."]

Adding delicious insult to injury, this was presented by one of ABC's foremost global warming alarmists Sam Champion during Friday's "20/20":

    SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

    (Voiceover) Al Gore's 2006 documentary, 'An Inconvenient Truth," makes the same point with actual video of ice shelves calving. Which shots have more impact?

    AL GORE (FORMER UNITED STATES VICE PRESIDENT)

    And if you were flying over it in a helicopter, you'd see it's 700 feet tall. They are so majestic.

    SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

    (Voiceover) Wait a minute, that shot looks just like the one in the opening credits of "The Day After Tomorrow."

    KAREN GOULEKAS (VISUAL EFFECTS SUPERVISOR)

    Yeah, that's, that's our shot. That's a fully computer generated shot. There's nothing real in there.

    SAM CHAMPION (ABC NEWS)

    (Voiceover) Audiences expect Hollywood to twist fact into fiction. But Gore's documentary does the opposite, using a fake shot to make a real point, that ice shelves are disappearing, and vanishing ice means global warming.

Apparently, ABC tried to get a comment from Gore concerning the matter, but none was forthcoming:


Gore will also not allow reporters to cover his speeches on global warming, for which he is paid and average of $175,000.00 per presentation. One reporter had  reported that Gore was using the speeches to promote companies dealing with alternative energy methods in which Gore had a stake in, making him basically a stock hawker whose personal stock holdings would go up if stock activity heightened. After this report was made public, all reporters were banned from future presentations.

I could go on and on but you can do it yourself with Google. There is plenty of information available to ease your puzzlement. Gore does not deserve the millions he has made from exploiting a global warming scare and he certainly did not deserve a Nobel prize.

    
Balladeer
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32 posted 04-23-2008 12:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Bob, I've had little desire to read Carter's works. My "partial information" was living my heyday (30's) during his presidency, as I suspect you did, too. Politics did not concern me in the slightest but I considered Carter a joke as a president even then, as did many, a joke that was not easy to laugh at if you were in the unemployment line along with the extremely large percentage of other Americans. The only thing he did right was to get out after one term.

Btw, it is fitting that he would be attacked by a rabbit. There are few things on this planet so timid a rabbit would attack them. Apparently Carter was one of them
Seoulair
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33 posted 04-23-2008 12:51 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

Gore did not start the warning crusade of Globe warming. He merely take advantage of his fame to make it more known to the world. I do not see anything wrong with it.  He was lucky that he got Nobel Price. (many scientists should have shared)

As for Mr.Carter, he really deserved it. Good or bad president, different generation will have different saying.

My old neighbor, a republican, wanting to fly confederate flag on his porch is a very kind, decent man and 80 something. He told me that he didn't like Truman when he lived under Truman's time. But decades later after he read Truman's Biography, his opinion changed.
Bob K
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34 posted 04-23-2008 04:50 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

    

Dear Balladeer,

          It's late and I've just gotten a chance to look at your above posting.  Thanks for responding.  Mr. Milloy, the junk science consultant for Fox news, I'm sorry to say, was the first article I was able to check.  His accusations to me felt like a put-up job frankly, but I didn't want to dismiss them simply because of that.  I looked him up in wikipedia and found that while Fox still employs him is apparently in the employ of others as well.  You may not wish to look at the whole unpleasant article, made worse by the objectivity of it all.  

     In checking out Kevin Mooney's stuff I found that he had a series of articles about global warming, all debunking it with the exception of one, full of outrage.  That one was a response to the suggestion from the Union of Concerned Scientists that there be some sort of congressional oversight to the debate, and that the debate be limited to people who had actual scientific evidence to back them up, as evidenced by having articles published in peer reviewed journals.

     This notion Mr. Mooney could not tolerate.  A new era of McCarthyism, he thunders, etcetera.

     I don't think so.  It means that actual fringe loonies who don't have the research to get their views considered on the basis of the facts collected, shouldn't have their views considered as though they were as well researched as the data of those people who have.  Science has to do with consideration of the facts, and your opinion is worth squat without them.  Mr. Mooney knows this, and he knows where most of the facts are to be found.  If only facts that have been well established from peer reviewed journals were admissible for consideration, his end of the global warming debate would be sunk.  

     If Mr. Gore did use a computer generated shot instead of actual footage, that was silly of him, and I suppose he will have some 'splanin' to do.  I'll wait for his explanation a bit.  As a writer, you do editing all the time, as I do, and you know that if you know something isn't right you can edit around it, change the focus a bit and nobody will ever know the difference.  Seems odd to me too.

     Gore has been at this environmental stuff for a very long time.  He's been writing books about it and people have been ignoring him or making fun of him about it for much if not most of that time.  He's been called a dreamer and a fool for his stubborn convictions about this stuff.  If he's made investments that put some of his money were his mouth is in the face of a substantial number of people telling him he's an idiot for doing so and the investments look like they may well be paying off because he was right and because he worked hard, it hardly seems terribly conservative to hold that against him.  It seems to me he saw a need, it was a visionary need, and he helped people understand how filling that need would help them.  I have no idea how accurate the stories are about his profiting from all this are, but if they are true, I don't see that he's hurt anybody by it.

     Even the current administration now acknowledges the reality of global warming.  They simply don't seem to want to spend any money to do anything about it.

     I don't know how much Mr. Gore gets from presenting his Global warming presentation.  It's sort of a rock-star show, I figure, and I can't afford those anyway.  What were they charging for the latest big rock presentation, Balladeer?  I've always felt outraged by that sort of stuff as well.  I used to fume when I heard that James Dickey used to get $2500.00 a reading back in 1970, too.  What did I know?  I wish you $175,000 a reading, too.

     And if Gore was able to generate this much attention to something he's been working on for 17 years and harvesting mostly a rich crop of scorn and mockery out of,
then I still wish him well.  The prize was not a cool million, I hear, but a million and a half, and he split it with a team of 10 environmental scientists.  They got their part for the science, he got his part for the publicity campaign.
That's the way I understand it.  

     If Gore has made millions, and I don't know that he has, it doesn't seem to be at anybody's expense and it's been by doing good and working his tail off in the face of some bitter ad hominim attacks.  He seems happy, and I would like that kind of happiness for you and me.  He hasn't appeared to inflict pain on anybody that I can see.
I'm glad he got the Nobel.  I think the awareness of the mess the planet's in gives us a better chance of doing stuff to get out of it.  I feel I owe him something for that.
I'm grateful.  Why should I begrudge him that?
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35 posted 04-23-2008 11:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BobK, with all due respect, it appears you hedge your words a bit by taking factual statements and making them conditional if they conflict in any way.

  If Mr. Gore did use a computer generated shot instead of actual footage, There is no if here. The people who actually generated the footage for the movie have verified it.

If he's made investments that put some of his money were his mouth is in the face of a substantial number of people telling him he's an idiot for doing so and the investments look like they may well be paying off because he was right and because he worked hard, it hardly seems terribly conservative to hold that against him.  There is no if here. His investments are a matter of record, unlike anyone calling him an idiot for buying such stock. There have been many such scandals over the years of people doing mass mailings, flyers, etc, touting stocks they are involved in to get the prices up before dumping them. What he is doing is nothing new. Why would he ban all reporters from being present if all is so above board?

I have no idea how accurate the stories are about his profiting from all this are, but if they are true,  It would be easy enough to know. It's all there in Google. I would have printed the links but I considered them unnecessary over a point so well known. If they are true, Bob?

If Gore has made millions, and I don't know that he has,  I find that hard to believe, Bob, for someone as informed as you keep yourself. You may not wish to acknowledge it but I doubt that there is actually an "if" in your mind here. Making facts conditional does not make them anything less than factual, regardless of whatever ostrich-like tendencies people employ.

Even the current administration now acknowledges the reality of global warming.   No one in recent history has ever doubted it. The doubt lies in Gore's fantasy world of what will happen and the fact that it is all because of what humans are doing to it.

It would appear, Bob, that, rather than acknowlege certain factual findings, you prefer to use excuses for dismissing them or lessining their value. I do not mean that in an unkind way but, based on your responding comments in this thread I can see it no other way. You excuse direct quotes from Carter relating to Israel's part in the Middle East crisis by pointing out the writer of the article didn't like Carter, as if that changes everything.

You ignore the fact that a British judge demands that students forced to watch An Inconvenient Truth be told of all of the film's misrepresentations. Perhaps the judge was a closet Republican? You completely disregard all of the factual misrepresentations of the second link, like smow caps covering New York City in our lifetime, Tidal waves burying Florida, seals drowning because thay have to swim too far to find food, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps you consider them little more than creative spurts of imagination.

If Gore has made millions, and I don't know that he has, it doesn't seem to be at anybody's expense and it's been by doing good and working his tail off in the face of some bitter ad hominim attacks.

Not at anyone's expense is an interesting and, I'm afraid, short-sighted view. It has already cost us and when the "green" movement goes into full swing, you will get the opportunity to see just how much it really will cost us. If we and PIP are still around when that happens, I'll be happy to point them out to you. As far as Gore working his tail off, have you seen  pictures of him lately? The tail is alive, well and flourishing and there is a rumor that he sweats gravy....but I don't want to be catty about it.

'm glad he got the Nobel. Ok by me, Bob. If you applaud a man who creates a false documentary with false facts and footage, invests in alternative energy stocks which he then get paid to steer other investors to, which increase the value of his own holdings while, at the same time, uses more personal energy than 50 households, which he explains away by buying carbon credits which he pays himself for....then bless you. You are a con man's dream. In actual fact, though, you are way too smart to be any con man's mark. I believe the simple fact is that your party preference put you on his side and you will defend his actions, no matter what they may be. We all do that, don';t we?. That's what makes conversations like these so frustrating and difficult to resolve. In Gore's case, however, I can honestly say that, if the man were a Republican, I would still find his actions, deceptions and scare tactics deplorable and I would not consider myself demeaning the Republican Party by doing so.....only him.

He may have the Nobel prize but he will never have the no-bull prize...that's a fact.
Seoulair
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36 posted 04-23-2008 12:52 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

quote:
Gore is a fake. He has little interest in global warming,.... but none was forthcoming:

Those comments were mainly on a technical of illustration....illustration of an event. It should be allowed if the data is not manipulated. Those news expressed that they care not if the global warming was true or not, but Gore used the wrong way to illustrate it. that was it.
But a wrong illustration does not prove that   Global warming was not here. That picture is not the singe data that scientist have.

Mr.Gore, (many does not want him to be president, does not want to be a Noble winner ) is proved to be a valued man by half American.(there were voting data)
And I think that he is quite handsome.



Bob K
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37 posted 04-23-2008 09:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Balladeer,

           Yes.  The folks you quote make a point of attacking what they call "liberal press," while not defining what they mean by that.  They even include that bit of information in their blurb on their google entries.  "Correcting Liberal Bias," I think they call it.  I'm not clear what they're willing to do to hard information to do so.  Attitude toward fact seems questionable, hence the "if-then" constructions.

     I did get to source you sent me to about the Gore film, and I'm still trying to find where they got their material from.  I'm sure it's out there and I'll keep at it.  But I won't take it simply on their say so because I saw their other article about the british judge and THAT one I was able to check out:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200802130001?f=s_search

     Media Matters is a little bit more objective than your guys, so you can see where the story came from, but you can see the serious twisting and smearing that went on for the story to be printed in the form that you presented
it.  I'm sure you didn't realize that when you used the article to make your point.  I'll stay on top and keep after this stuff.  I don't want to convert you, and I'm not trying here, Balladeer, it's simply that there's a lot of stuff going on that we may be able to change going on in the world.  We may be able to help each other out.  Is that so terrible?
Respectfully yours, BobK.
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38 posted 04-23-2008 11:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BobK, the articles fromthe CSM really caused me to do some very deep self-soul searching. I'll try to put my thoughts down in some  sort of rational order without contradicting myself too many times but it may not be easy.

Like the old Indian saying, "Never  judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins", one has to try to be objective in one's viewing and criticisms of another's actions. All we can do is say what we would do (or hope we would do) under similar circumstances.

As many know, I am a devotee of Ayn Rand, not because she showed me how and what to think but because she showed me that there are actually others out there with the same thoughts and feelings I have always had. You can believe me that I had had doubts about that before reading her work. She had two philosophies that fit into this topic, I believe, the first being "Never give an undeserved moral sanction".

Hamas is a terrorist group. I doubt you will find anyone who disputes that. They introduced the warfare of suicide bombing in 1994, they train women and children to blow up other women and children, they support for life the families of suicide bombers and they kidnap and murder at their whim. Are they duly elected? Yes, but take a closer look at that fact. They have support because they have taken care of the poor, the majority of the Palestinian populace. Upon closer inspection, however, one finds, and it has been well-documented, that their support and aid went only to people who pledged their allegiance to hamas. Anyone who didn't was out. Food and medical treatment goes to followers and no one else. Small wonder that they had so many supporters. As the CSM pointed out, the denial of foreign aid to the Palestinians only made hamas stronger and the populace more dependant on them.

So hamas has money and power. What don't they have? They don't have a moral sanction. They don't have anyone to say they are NOT a terrorist group. Does that matter to them? You can bet your sweet bippy it does. They want the undeserved legitimacy - they need it. It doesn't matter a hoot that they know they don't deserve it. They are the rapist who is demanding that his victim say "I love you" while he is forcing himself on her. They are the street thug who says "You are going to  loan me all of your money, aren't you?" as he holds a knife to your throat. They need the pretence. That's why they welcome Jimmy Carter. An ex-president of the United States negotiating with them makes them more than a terrorist group. It gives them the legitimacy they crave. Israel and the United States will not give them that undeserved legitimacy.....Jimmy Carter will. They have their moral sanction through him. (Ayn Rand would not like Jimmy Carter). Is that a good thing or a bad thing or just a necessary thing? Not dealing with hamas seems to do little good and yet dealing with them gives them and undeserved position.....and the jury would still be out whether or not dealing with them would do any good in the end, anyway. So what's the answer? I don't have it. If one feels negotiations with a terrorist group is necessary, then I would think the negotiations should involve concerned parties, like the countries in the Middle East. What has Carter to offer? He has the backing of no government, he has no power to do anything aside from offering them free peanuts for the rest of their lives. They will use him as a puppet, nothing more.

It is always good to stand up for one's ideals....but to what point?  Which of us would actually stand up and say "Give me liberty or give me death" today?  Which of us would sign the Declaration of Independence, knowing that our lands would be taken from us and we would die in poverty, which is exactly what happened to the original signers? I'd like to think I would follow through with these high ideals....but would I? I don't honestly know. The Three Musketeers were fictional characters and their "All for one and one for all" cry was from the imagination of the author, nothing more. I would like to say I would never give an undeserved moral sanction to anyone and yet I am not living on the West Bank, starving.

Ayn Rand's second point is much tougher..."Black is black and white is white and gray is evil."  In other words, any compromise that deals with mixing bad with good is bad. Since the world runs on compromise that would be a toughie to follow, I know. It would take a degree of high idealism which doesn't exist today. We can find small traces of it when we declare we do not negotiate with kidnappers, for example, but for the most part the ideal gives way to the reality of the world in which we live. Terrorism is bad. Sending children to blow themselves up along with other children is bad. Compromising or negotiating with organizations that engage in that is bad.....isn't it? And yet that is what Carter is attempting to do. It is simply not going to work and hamas will be stronger  for it.

But I'm sitting here in my cozy living room with a Pepsi in my hand and American Idol on tv (how in the world did they bounce Carly????). It's easy for me to speak of ideals and tell people what they should and shouldn't do and think. No one is going to lob a bomb at my house in the morning or shoot at me on the way to work....er, i'll retract that last remark. I DO live in South Florida, after all. I can speak of high ideals and yet I have not put on one pair of mocassins that the people over there walk in every day. I can say idealogocially that hamas should not be given legitimacy and yet I cannot condemn those who would do so. I simply don't think Jimmy Carter is the man to do it.

Again, Bob, I thank you for the links. They helped my climb down from my high horse for a minute and look hard at both sides. I wish I were smart enough to have  the answers. I don't.

Peace......
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39 posted 04-23-2008 11:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, I can see where Media Matters is more objective...they spell it out in their description.

Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.

Thanks for the smile
Seoulair
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40 posted 04-24-2008 01:16 AM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

quote:
Like the old Indian saying, "Never  judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins",

If one has never stepped in the shoes of Mr.Gore or Mr.Carter or worked  with them, one should not judge them.

quote:
one has to try to be objective in one's viewing and criticisms of another's actions. All we can do is say what we would do (or hope we would do) under similar circumstances.


Carter visits Hams is bad. How about Bush has not Caught Bin Laden?

quote:
As many know, I am a devotee of Ayn Rand, not because she showed me how and what to think but because she showed me that there are actually others out there with the same thoughts and feelings I have always had. You can believe me that I had had doubts about that before reading her work. She had two philosophies that fit into this topic, I believe, the first being "Never give an undeserved moral sanction".


Who is Any Rand any way?
A woman's moral of baseless is self-made moral.

quote:
Hamas is a terrorist group.

Yes. What shall we do about it? If it can not be wiped out why try to change it?  War is organized terrorism too.  

quote:
to blow up other women and children, they support for life the families of suicide bombers


1. How many woman and children have already been killed by dropping Bombs in the last 4 years?

2. In Vietnam war, someone has encountered children troops and women troops.

It was war. It was homeland. It is integrity and  it is freedom too.  and idealism too. (everyone in the world value life as the same price but some have never had a measurement.)

quote:
That's why they welcome Jimmy Carter. An ex-president of the United States negotiating with them makes them more than a terrorist group. It gives them the legitimacy they crave. Israel and the United States will not give them that undeserved
legitimacy.....Jimmy Carter will.


I don't think that Mr.Carter is that powerful. I think that Both sides would take as good will. And I think this is rather good, because others from North could do the exactly same thing. Then, shall we be happy ?

quote:
Ayn Rand would not like Jimmy Carter

                     (unmatchable)

quote:
"Give me liberty or give me death"

Do you think that Hamas are doing this?

quote:
Ayn Rand's second point is much tougher..."Black is black and white is white and gray is evil."  

Ayn Rand's Black1 were blank. Black2 were blue. And her white was red and some times black5. And her evil were whoever said self-interest were selfish. Her sight was truly worse than color blind.
Tell me, how gray is evil?

quote:
In other words, any compromise that deals with mixing bad with good is bad.


What is good and what is bad? every body is bloody handed. So what is the definition? By God 's standard or by self-interest? or other religions or philosophies?  

quote:
But I'm sitting here in my cozy living room with a Pepsi in my hand and American Idol on tv (how in the world did they bounce Carly????). It's easy for me to speak of ideals and tell people what they should and shouldn't do and think.


Great man. Never forget to worry about the underprivileged ones.( Ayn Rand would hate this)

quote:
They helped my climb down from my high horse for a minute and look hard at both sides.

Do please do it more frequent and next time take me as your stool.      

And have a very good night!!!
Bob K
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41 posted 04-24-2008 01:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Balladeer,

          Thank you so much for checking out the Christian Science Monitor.  I don't always like what they have to say, but I never doubt their integrity in their reporting of it.  They've made me sit down and think deeply many a time as well.  I know you've been busy, and I appreciate the time you've taken.

     I know that you were put off my the information in the heading of the link.  I hope that didn't stop you from reading further.  The information you discussed in your note was taken up and acknowledged there, but you need to read the article through to the end to get the balance of the thing.  And then you'd have to check out their version of the facts as best you can.  I don't want you to accept them on their own.

     Publications like The New York Times and The Washington Post make an effort to keep conservative folks on their staffs and to make sure those voices are represented.  You can find them spread fairly widely through a week's worth of newsprint, as well as in most of the papers the right wing calls "Liberal Press."  Alan Coombs is about the only liberal given an sort of voice in the right wing press, and when he starts to disagree, the show's producers cut to music or switch to Sean Hannity.
I'm not weeping about it, I think it's funny, as a liberal, to see all the airplay about The Liberal Press.  I don't think the country understands the word anymore.  It's being used to define folks that when I was a kid used to be thought of as Rockefeller Republicans.

     I too read Ayn Rand when I was younger.  We parted company over the issue of black and white when I realized that not everybody had the same notion of what was black and what was white.  It was a simple way to become  Procrustean about the important matters of life without understanding the other guy's point of view.  A chair
is a chair except when it's thirty feet tall and made out of aluminum, standing in front of The Pacific  Design Center in LA, a hundred feet away from a thirty foot tall aluminum  table lamp.  Then it may be a piece of design.
A Table Lamp is a Table Lamp, yes.  A Table Lamp is a Piece of Design and not a table lamp, yes.  A is A, as Ms. Rand famously misreads Aristotle, is often a matter of perspective and point of view.

     Cognitive therapy, one of the forms of widely used behavior therapy, uses Black and White thinking as an example of one of its logical fallacies.  As do most behavioral therapies.  Black and White thinking is often cited as a logical fallacy in rhetoric texts and is generally accepted as one.  You being right, for example, about many conservative values does not make me wrong about many liberal ones; and vice versa.  In other words, there is room for both of us to be decent and right thinking folks who want what's best for everyone.  

     A few thoughts.

     Thanks again for you kind response to the Christian Science Monitor articles.  They really do give good information and much to think about for everybody with concerns in the matter.

Sincerely, BobK.
Balladeer
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42 posted 04-24-2008 09:17 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Carter visits Hams is bad. How about Bush has not Caught Bin Laden?

Seoulair, how can I argue with such profound logic? I surrender
Balladeer
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43 posted 04-24-2008 09:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

A chair is a chair except when it's thirty feet tall and made out of aluminum, standing in front of The Pacific  Design Center in LA, a hundred feet away from a thirty foot tall aluminum  table lamp.  Then it may be a piece of design. And would you call that 30 foot tall piece of design a table, Bob? Or would it still be a chair?

Arguments like this are what have muddied the waters so much that truth and fact become so garbled that one cannot recognize fact when one sees it. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong and there are no actual facts. Al Capone was basically an entrepreneur who supplied liquid refreshments to the populace and helped rid the world of gangsters who opposed him. Hitler was a painter who perfected population control. A thirty foot chair is really a sofa. Me being right about certain conservative values does not make you wrong about certain liberal ones? True enough but when I see something as a chair and you see it as a porcupine then I won't argue. I'll simply ask you to sit on it.

There are few left with the courage to to say the emperor is really naked because there will always be someone out there to say not really - he is wearing skin or just because you don't see clothes doesn't mean they are not really there. There are no black and white issues any more.....hence the state of the world. Congrats to all....
Seoulair
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Seoul S.Korea


44 posted 04-24-2008 12:26 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

True enough but when I see something as a chair and you see it as a porcupine then I won't argue. I'll simply ask you to sit on it"

Seoulair
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Seoul S.Korea


45 posted 04-24-2008 12:54 PM       View Profile for Seoulair   Email Seoulair   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seoulair

There are no black and white issues any more.....hence the state of the world. Congrats to all....

Black and White are confused concepts because when you are not talking colors (still remember last troubles you made? )you might put in any value into them as you treated X, Y in algebra.  What is Black? what is white? If the world is as simple as this, why we need wisdom? why we need judgment?

"Black is black and white is white and gray is evil." Rand

When there is an issue presented to Mr.W does he view it as black? or white? How does he judge it? by previous teaching? then what is the statues before teaching? Gray? then Gray is evil. Did she mean that every one is evil? then what was  she?

"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes ' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil."- Jesus
This is very clear... Say what you mean and mean what you say. He did not say that one had to be right Because human rarely got right anyway.

Bob K
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46 posted 04-24-2008 02:07 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Balladeer,

     No, I'm not joking about there being actual gray-scale cases that must be considered and do not conform usefully to black and white thinking.  I simply haven't expressed myself well.  Please see the wikipedia article on Fuzzy Logic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

     There are actual situations in which "truth' must be applied in a scalar fashion, and there are mathematical and logical systems that have been developed since the mid sixties that deal with these situations.

     Knowing your preference for seeing things in a real-world business kind of framework, I skipped over the psychological references to black and white thinking and settled on one that talks about it in terms of business dynamics.  You might try this google reference on Black and White thinking to check it out from that point of view.

http://www.slowleadership.org/2006/08/seeing-in-black-and-white.html

     One of the main problems with black and white thinking is that it yields faulty information, or it gets subordinates to act as yes men for the decision maker.  New ideas and new approaches are D.O.A.  And so on.  I believe that Ayn Rand had problems of this sort with folks in her own organization, and many of them were forced to leave over reasonably small points of contention.  I'm not sure, so I won't state this as fact.

     Facts must be distinguished from opinions.  The ranking of the importance of one fact in relationship to another is also a matter of some importance.  Your statement about Al Capone was factual.  You left other facts out.  Your statement about Hitler being a painter and an advocate of population control were facts.  You simply distorted the importance of the facts by presenting them as if they had an  import equal to or greater than the things in Hitler's life we generally think of first when we think of him at all.  In fact, by using Black and White thinking, you seek to make Hitler more different from the rest of us than he in fact was.  He was a not very successful artist with right wing leanings.  You and I share the first part of that description, Balladeer, we split company on the second, and I don't know how we line up on the third.  

     You seek to make evil something that is further away from us than it is.  It's the Black and White thinking that not only allows but encourages that.  It produces, as Mr. Fradera jibed in a recent poem, Us and Them splits that have a funny way of breaking down.
I don't think you mean to do this.  It's simply a by-product of this kind of thinking, like burning hydrogen produces water.


     I'm interested in your thoughts about this.  And I'd like to get back to Mr. Carter and Mr. Gore.  You've had interesting things to say about each of them and I'd like a chance to continue our dialogue with a man of conviction and integrity, such as yourself.
I hope everything is going well for you down there.

Sincerely, BobK.


[This message has been edited by Bob K (04-24-2008 06:15 PM).]

Balladeer
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47 posted 04-24-2008 06:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Your statement about Hitler being a painter and an advocate of population control were facts.  You simply distorted the importance of the facts by presenting them as if they had an  import equal to or greater than the things in Hitler's life we generally think of first when we think of him at all.

I distorted nothing. I named facts. I said nothing about where they rank in the level of importance at all. Apply that to Hamas. You can begin a conversation by they they are a duly elected body who aids the poor. But when you bring in the facts that they are murderers who kill innocent civilians with bombs in public places and describe some of the other atrocities they have committed over the years that kinds changes things a little, doesn't it....in the same way listing Hitler's atrocities would change perceptions when added to my original comments. Those who prefer dealing with Hamas advocate  using the first two statements and not mentioning the others....or, by your words, distorting the issue. It's the same thing.

Carter and Gore. I think I've presented my views and opinions of them. Carter was a horrible president who does wonderful work with his humanitarian endeavors. Gore is a slug who preys on the fears of others to make money. Global warming is not the first thing he tried. He was known as the "crisis" man. Years ago when he was running for President there was a compilation of clips about him making speeches, each one announcing a different crisis. There was an "educational" crisis, an "energy" crisis, a "morals" crisis.....you name it and Gore could announce a crisis over it. He hit gold with global warming and has milked it for all it's worth. He is a successful man in doing what he does best - conning the public.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


48 posted 04-24-2008 11:00 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:
Balladeer:
Arguments like this are what have muddied the waters so much that truth and fact become so garbled that one cannot recognize fact when one sees it. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong and there are no actual facts. Al Capone was basically an entrepreneur who supplied liquid refreshments to the populace and helped rid the world of gangsters who opposed him. Hitler was a painter who perfected population control. A thirty foot chair is really a sofa. Me being right about certain conservative values does not make you wrong about certain liberal ones? True enough but when I see something as a chair and you see it as a porcupine then I won't argue. I'll simply ask you to sit on it.


Dear Balladeer,

          One of the Problems with Black and White thinking is that it leads to overgeneralization, the use of words such as Always, Never, Everybody, Nobody often lead folks who use Black and White thinking to make statements to make
statements that they themselves would find disquieting if they thought about it.  They usually know the world is more complicated than they present it as being.  From my own all too frequent indulgences in the practice, I know there are times when the actual complexity of the world is close to maddening and I simply wish it were not so.

     Hence, it is not surprising to find somebody using Black and White thinking to say, "Nobody is right, nobody is wrong and there are no actual facts," with all seriousness at one place and to say with equal seriousness and conviction, "I distorted nothing. I named facts. I said nothing about where they rank in the level of importance at all" at another to justify his own editing of the facts at a later point.  And in point of fact, at least in my own belief, he sees no difference.  There is no problem for him here.  This isn't terrible, this is simply the way this sort of thinking operates.  It tends to switch around in this way with perfectly decent and honest intentions.    

     Some issues can be resolved by analysis of the facts.  Some are matters of opinion that depend on how the facts are construed.  There will be other options as well.  This is why in recent years the folks who supply you with your electrical lighting have started to supply you with the option of a dimmer switch for the ordinary on/off switch that light fixtures used to supply.  This is why heating and cooling systems tend to use rheostats to turn the heat or cooling functions on or off; otherwise home-owners would be pretty busy, running back and forth to the on/off switch for the furnace.

     I would like your thought on the two articles I selected on Black and White Thinking for your consideration.  Or anybody else's.  They're actually pretty decent.  I'll try to get back to Carter and Gore Later.

Respectfully yours, BobK.
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49 posted 04-25-2008 02:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I confess that, by my own limited intelligence, I have no idea what you just said. How whether or not Hamas is a terrorist organization to be dealt with or not has led us to a road involving putting dimmer switches on lights is enough to baffle me....think I'll go to bed now
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