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Obama

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byski
Member
since 01-26-2006
Posts 227
Alberta, Canada


50 posted 08-25-2008 12:15 AM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

LOL!
That about sums it up.
If some people are about to get offended by this piece lets take a step back into history. Since the American government took its dollar off of the gold standard in 1971 we have seen rising inflation and a sinking value of its currency. The question to ask is has this occurred in any other society in the past, and if so how did it affect the society? We can trace the first devaluation of money back to the early roman empire where all coins that were brought in as tax were melted down, mixed in with other metals and sent back out into the market (Inflation). This was one attributing reason to the fall of the Roman Empire. The more relavent example (which is the one that is being referenced here) is post WWI Germany. Combined with trade embargoes this put Germany into the same position that America is in now. And what did rise out of that period of great turmoil? It goes without saying that when a society is in great economic stress it opens the way to more extreme solutions. Now Obama and Clinton are not like Hitler in many ways, but the question is how are they similar? Only time will tell...
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


51 posted 08-25-2008 02:16 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Balladeer,

         I was looking at your posting about Bush and Cheney.  I appreciate your being willing to set out your sense of things there, especially with the stem cell research, where I suspect we may agree.  Since we havenít spoken about immigration, I really donít know, but I can see that you have differences with the man, though they may be the same as or different than my own.  Itíd be interesting to find out some time.

     I was fascinated to see how differently the two of us thought about Cheney.  Is your point of view a common republican point of view here, or is it your own more particular point of view?  Iíve always tended to see Cheney as the point man for the administration, and as the guy taking the lead position when some new initiative, especially an initiative that would probably upset the democrats, was being proposed.  And I think that a lot of other Democrats tend to see him the same way.

     Iím not sure, mind you, that we are seeing anything different.  The republicans may simply be seeing things and saying, Gee, thatís skimpy. thatís not enough of the industrial strength Cheney weíve so come to love and admire; while the democrats are saying, Holy Cow!, these are the ultimate depths of evil; how do we stop this guy before he turns the world into a radioactive slag heap?  You know I tend toward the democratic side of things here, of course, but Iím not sure if what Iím seeing is all that different in terms of actual activity and behavior than what you are.

     When I see the reaction of Mr. Fradera to the campaign of Senator Obama, or your own reaction, or Huan Yiís, I feel as though Iím looking into a fun-house gallery of mirrors.  Such is the level of fear and alarm portrayed.  I think we donít make sense to each other.  Iíve never been able to establish a really decent level of conversation with Mr. Fradera, partly my own fault, Iím sure, but am am able to talk decently with you at times and I make an effort from time to time with Huan Yi.  I could do better, but I do respect his sense of honor and his courage and his patriotism.

     I couldnít expect your disillusionmnent with this administration to be the same as mine,  Our points of view about so many important things are different.  It would be hard for Kerry or Gore to put their Presidential futures on the line, as you seem to expect them to do, without them actually having taken office.  It seems unreasonable for you to expect them to do so, though I believe your general sense of outrage is great enough for you to feel like the statement makes sense, even when it doesnít.  Clinton pursued legal sanctions against the people responsible for the original bombing.  Those people are in jail now, and following the atrocities of 9/11 we had world-wide support in any sane sanctions we wanted to pursue in relation to those activities.  It took a lot of bad choices and ill-considered actions to waste that outpouring of massed good-will and support.  Iím unhappy to say that we accomplished the task in record time.  It didnít have to be that way.  Even the military said it didnít have to be that way at the time.  Itís taken all this time for the administration to even begin to start to look at some of the stuff the military was saying from the beginning about asymetrical warfare and the way to deal with insurrections.  This administration for several years was busy denying there even were insurrections and civil war senerios going on, all at the cost of treasure, troops and civilian deaths, all to shore up an untenable policy.

     I suggested a website for you to check out about asymetrical warfare written by military and diplomatic people on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan because I didnít want you to take my word on the subject.  Itís there in the back listings somewhere, should you actually want to check it out.  Itís not about winningf a debate, itís about whatís vbest for our country, whatís best for the military and for the diplomatic initiatives, and what kind of realistic policy should we be following.

     Thatís too important to leave to party leaders, democratic or republican.  Thereís no substitute for actually doing the reading and listening to what the folks on the ground have to say, and reading as many books from as many different points of view as you can.

     Iím not aware of the U.N. being any more corrupt than any other large political organization I know about.  I include the United States government and both the Democratic and Republican parties in that statement.  If you have some way of measuring other than pure animus, please let me know.  Iím open to new information.  But Iíd bet that the information isnít particularly new or startling and that the level of corruption isnít particularly different, overall.

     How are you going to measure?

     Iím not particularly interested in changing your feeling on any of this.  Feelings are feelings, and may not be particularly open to reason.  Hopefully, you arenít closed minded about facts, whatever your feelings may be.  Your feelings are your own.  The facts should be open to confirmation and verification.  If theyíre false, then conclusions and reasoning based on those facts have to be re-examined.  Doesnít mean that you can fly unassisted, just because you feel you can.  It could be the LSD talking, you know; or the funny ideas you picked up when you were under your Godfather Tweetyís wing.

     For reasons somewhat different than yours, Iím not so thrilled with the actions of the Democrats over the last eight years either.  I feel they should have been willing to be fully as obstructive as the Republicans are now proving to be.  I think they were cowardly not to be so, and not to fillabuster frequently, though I think they didnít always have the votes to make that stick.  I donít think they were as nasty as the Republicans were and are willing to be.  I think that may have been a mistake also.

     As for not voting on the energy Bill, Iím not particularly bothered by that.  I donít see that there will be any effect at the pumps.  If thereís money to be made drilling, then there are a lot of oil leases that the oil companies already own that are unused inside the United States, and they should start drilling there, instead of pretending that their only hope is in acquiring land they donít own.  They should try using what they have and show they can manage that well.  Among other things, they should show that, as Multinational companies, they would actually SELL THE OIL TO CONSUMERS IN THE UNITED STATES INSTEAD OF SHIPPING U.S. OIL TO CONSUMERS OUTSIDE THE U.S., AND LEAVE US WITH THE SAME OIL PROBLEMS BUT WITH NO DOMESTIC OIL RESERVES TO SOLVE THEM WITH.

     You pretend that we would be selling to domestic oil producers whose interest is in supplying only U.S. markets.

     Show me how is this the case.  They would like to give us this impression, certainly; but as long as oil prices are higher other places, why would they not sell their oil there?   Their share holders would be surprised to find that theyíve invested in charitable organizations.  So would almost everybody else except the political operatives who are busy trying to rally the Republican base with this series of half-truths and insinuations.

     Apparently you feel that the August congressional vacation was early?  

     I have to say, Mike, that I really donít know when itís actually scheduled most years.  How early was the vacation this year?  If it was very early, perhaps some other legislation might have been considered,  Was there something that was waiting on the legislative agenda that was especially important, or was this actually the last thing on the agenda for the year?  Perhaps a pay raise for the troops, an extention in health benefits for them, some sort of move to economize on the  medicare and medicaid budgets by making sure that all the drugs were put out for low bids, as they are in the V.A.óthatíd save a bunch of cash, wouldnít it?  

     I understand though that the Republicanís feel these things shouldnít make it to the debate at all.  

     So instead of drilling on land they already own drilling right on, the oil companies are basically holding us all hostage until we give away more rights to them that they may or may not use.  If our current situation is any example, then the answer is NOT.   At least not until they can extrort larger amounts of money from us without showing any return committment except to their own profits.  

     Maybe theyíll sell us the oil, maybe China or Korea or Japan or India.  Theyíll just hint that itís for us until they get us to sign on the dotted line.


BobK
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


52 posted 08-25-2008 02:36 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Now Obama and Clinton are not like Hitler in many ways, but the question is how are they similar? Only time will tell...



Dear Mr. Byski,

                 Please clarify this for me.  It seems functionally senseless; one could actually mix and match any three names with as much intellectual gain.  Exactly what do you mean by this puzzling statement?

Yours in bewildered confusion,
BobK

Now Philip Morris and e.e. cummings are not like Howard Stern in many ways, but the question is how are they similar?  Only time will tell...

Now Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingerich are not like Howdie Doody in many ways, but the question is how are they similar?  Only time will tell...

     That one has downright eerie overtones, something about the cheeks and the hair of all three of them makes me shiver; but, as Mr. Byski so aptly intones, only time will tell.
  


Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


53 posted 08-25-2008 05:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWZhNWYwNWMxYzI0OGQ3M2M0YWQ0YWVmNTdmYWEyMTE=


.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


54 posted 08-25-2008 10:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Huan Yi,

           Was that a change in subject because the previous material was simply too difficult to deal with or is there a connection here that I haven't understood?  Or am I stating things unfairly?  Mr. Bysky  was gnomic as well, but did try to express a point of view that might be addressed.  Is there one of yours here?

Bob K
Balladeer
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since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


55 posted 08-25-2008 11:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Iím not aware of the U.N. being any more corrupt than any other large political organization I know about.

Is that the litmus test, Bob? Not being more corrupt?

I donít think they were as nasty as the Republicans were and are willing to be.  

Bob, no matter how many years I read posts in the Alley, I will guarantee you that I will NEVER see a statement as incredible as that one.

If thereís money to be made drilling, then there are a lot of oil leases that the oil companies already own that are unused inside the United States, and they should start drilling there, instead of pretending that their only hope is in acquiring land they donít own.  

Bob, owning the land and the leases are not enough. They also have to have the permissions that the government doles out, when ever they are in the mood, which has been very, very infrequently. Your argument that they would not sell the oil to American companies is simply the latest scare tactic used by the Democrats. First it was the environment going to hell and, now that they can't get any mileage out of that, they come up with this ridiculous argument. I can understand them coming up with it. I can't understand intelligent people like you buying and preaching it.


I have to say, Mike, that I really donít know when itís actually scheduled most years.


Bob, playing Hayseed Harry doesn't suit you. You are an intelligent man and everyone who reads your posts knows this. Please don't be insulting by trying to pretend you are not. The point is not when their vacation is scheduled. The point is that there was an important piece of legislation waiting to be voted on involving our energy situation. These facts are clear - polls indocated the public wanted it passed. There were enough votes for it to pass, thanks to Democrats crossing the line to vote for it - and Nancy Pelosi did NOT want that to happen, so much so that she had the press physically removed from the Senate and beat the hastiest retreat since Custer at the Little Big Horn. Is  there some kind of directive written somewhere that Congress cannot begin their vacation one day later than planned, when something serious needs to be dealth with? I stand by my strong belief that, if the parties were reverse, the Democrats would go berzerk at Republicans walking out. They would be pointing their fingers and telling every citizen that would listen that this was proof the Republicans did not care about the American people or what they wanted. Instead, I see someone saying something like, "Well, it was their vacation time." There is little wonder that this Democrat congress will go down  as the worst in US history and well-deserving of their record low popularity percentage.

the oil companies are basically holding us all hostage
At least not until they can extrort larger amounts of money from us
Theyíll just hint that itís for us until they get us to sign on the dotted line.


If you would have found some way to stick Wal-Mart, Haliburton and Bill Gates in there, you would receive a Democrat Silver Star! So we can do it your way. We will not allow the oil companies to drill for oil so that they won't tell us to get lost while they ship it over to Japan or India.That'll teach them...

Thereís no substitute for actually doing the reading and listening to what the folks on the ground have to say, and reading as many books from as many different points of view as you can. I agree. Why don't you tell that to the Democrats, Bob? They have tried to second-guess everything the military commanders have told them that didn't connect what they want to hear. While you're at it, tell Obama who, after speaking with General Petraus, said something like, "Well, he's a good fella but we have disagreements." Obama having disagreements with our best general.....that should be enough to scare anyone.

Bob. let's face it. We are simply not going to agree or even see things eye to eye. You will continue to believe what you believe and so will I. Yes, facts are good along with links but then it comes down to something like congress tucking their Democratic tails and heading for the hills, you will spin it in a way that absolves them and I will protray it in a different light. It's not a factual thing - it's a perspective thing. We will simply continuing agreeing to disagree, respectfully.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


56 posted 08-26-2008 04:11 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Dear Balladeer,

         Thanks for getting back to me so promptly and for being willing to continue the discussion.  I really do think thereís more to this than spin.  I do try to acknowledge when I think the Democrats are wrong and what I think they are wrong about, and I notice too that you do your best to convey puzzlement about Republican actions that actually do confuse you.  I donít believe we have to be puzzled about what we expect the other person to be puzzled about in order to have a useful political conversation.  And yes, I do believe the facts are important.  And I think you do as well.

quote:


Iím not aware of the U.N. being any more corrupt than any other large political organization I know about.

Is that the litmus test, Bob? Not being more corrupt?


  

     Back at you, Mike.  Yes. You are willing to punish the U.N. for its corruption which is not essentially different than that of the U.S. Government, The Democratic Party or even your own much beloved Republican party.  Possibly less.  Possibly a bit more.  In return for a lessened chance for war and other major world upheaval, or for a measure of control on the severity they inflict on humanity as a whole, I think yes.  Certainly less corrupt would be better; I think so.

quote:


I donít think they were as nasty as the Republicans were and are willing to be.††

Bob, no matter how many years I read posts in the Alley, I will guarantee you that I will NEVER see a statement as incredible as that one.




     I can see we are both offering opinions here.  When I offer an opinion, I should expect to get an opinion back.  Should you care to offer specifics about any of those situations, it would be an interesting discussion, but of course since youíve made yourself the judge, all hint of impartiality is out the window.  Is there somebody youíd like to consider as judge who knows the Alley and whoís familiar with the postings and who is neutral who might be willing to render an impartial opinion on the matter?

     That would be somebody we both thought to be impartial.

     Iíd suspect that, at the minimum, theyíd back off making a call at all.  And if they did any fact checking rather than simply accepting raw news feeds, theyíd probably agree with me, though there are some pretty stupid talk show hosts out there on either side.


quote:


If thereís money to be made drilling, then there are a lot of oil leases that the oil companies already own that are unused inside the United States, and they should start drilling there, instead of pretending that their only hope is in acquiring land they donít own.††

Bob, owning the land and the leases are not enough. They also have to have the permissions that the government doles out, when ever they are in the mood, which has been very, very infrequently. Your argument that they would not sell the oil to American companies is simply the latest scare tactic used by the Democrats. First it was the environment going to hell and, now that they can't get any mileage out of that, they come up with this ridiculous argument. I can understand them coming up with it. I can't understand intelligent people like you buying and preaching it.




     First, Iíd like some references about the permissions the Government doles out.  The off-shore drilling is already specifically set aside, as I understand it, by a combination of state and Federal laws, as protected land.  If the oil companies find that process too difficult to deal with that process, they might as well stop now.  The reasons for the lack of flow from most of these domestic wells so far, as I understand it, is that the cost of extraction has been too high to make it worth the while of the companies to exploit the leases and the oil companies havenít thought it worth their while to push to open the areas up.

     Certainly theyíll sell oil to American companies.  But American companies will be competing against companies who are more willing to pay higher prices and where the profit margins of the companies are to some extent subsidized by the government.  For example in Japan or in England or in France with National health care, companies donít have to add that cost to their operating expenses.  In effect, itís cheaper for these foreign companies to buy the same oil.  It does nothing to help expenses at our pumps, it merely makes things work better in India and Japan.  We cut our own throats, while the multinational oil companies rake in the cash.

     You are living in an era, Mike, where reality has be redefined as another scare tactic.  Reality may be scary, but ignoring it is scarier.  And if you think that the environment is another scare tactic, you werenít paying attention to that article that Huan Yi was posting about the north polar ice cap.  The only reason you feel they arenít getting any milage about that is that you are pretending that it isnít real either.

     Near as I remember, this is a point I came up with on my own.  If anyone else thought of it as well, Iím thrilled.  Maybe Iím onto something worth thinking about.  Calling a discussion point ridiculous without offering anything to back up your claim but the ridicule itself is puffery.  If you have actual factual rebuttal, show it; that will enable the world to take the measure of your thinking and to respond to it.  Scorn by itself accrues points for style but not substance, and sometimes not for style, either.

quote:


I have to say, Mike, that I really donít know when itís actually scheduled most years.

Bob, playing Hayseed Harry doesn't suit you. You are an intelligent man and everyone who reads your posts knows this. Please don't be insulting by trying to pretend you are not. The point is not when their vacation is scheduled. The point is that there was an important piece of legislation waiting to be voted on involving our energy situation. These facts are clear - polls indicated the public wanted it passed. There were enough votes for it to pass, thanks to Democrats crossing the line to vote for it - and Nancy Pelosi did NOT want that to happen, so much so that she had the press physically removed from the Senate and beat the hastiest retreat since Custer at the Little Big Horn. Is††there some kind of directive written somewhere that Congress cannot begin their vacation one day later than planned, when something serious needs to be dealth with? I stand by my strong belief that, if the parties were reverse, the Democrats would go berzerk at Republicans walking out. They would be pointing their fingers and telling every citizen that would listen that this was proof the Republicans did not care about the American people or what they wanted. Instead, I see someone saying something like, "Well, it was their vacation time." There is little wonder that this Democrat congress will go down††as the worst in US history and well-deserving of their record low popularity percentage.



     Mike, the word remains ďDemocratic.Ē  I see that occasional reminders remain essential.

     One of the problems with being the suave, sophisticated, urbane monster about town that I am is that people simply cannot believe that there are things I should know that I donít know.  In this case I suspected that a vacation date was probably due simply by the way you began to sputter and growl and bluster.  You knew you were making a mountain out of a molehill as both parties do when this sort of this can be used to political advantage.  Democrats and Republicans have done it for years, and I wouldnít be terribly surprised to see it happen in the Roman Senate over 2000 years ago.

     Itís the privilege of the party in power to fix the agenda and the place of hearings and whether on not bills will actually appear at all.
When the Democrats first wanted to investigate some of the events around 9/11 and Abu Grahib (however you spell it) the Republican leadership fixed the hearings in a basement room that hadnít been cleared of itís prior furniture, hadnít been properly set and, and didnít have a sound system.  Woops.  Tell me where and which surveys said that the Amnerican people overwhelmingly wanted that bill to pass.  You may be right, Mike, itís simply I havenít seen that data.

     As a point of history, the thing that got Custer in trouble at the Little Bighorn was his inept advance, and possibly his splitting of forces.  He didn't even beat a hasty retreat because he had no actual place to retreat to.  He was massively disrespectful of the capacities of his opponents.  He was in such a hurry to inflict hurt that he paid no attention to the safety of his troops, put them into unneeded danger, and got the portion of his command that was with him at the time destroyed.  A planned withdrawal might have worked better.  Paying attention to the reports from his indian scouts would have helped as well.  A hundred and thirty years later and look how far we've come.  

quote:


the oil companies are basically holding us all hostage
At least not until they can extort larger amounts of money from us
Theyíll just hint that itís for us until they get us to sign on the dotted line.

If you would have found some way to stick Wal-Mart, Haliburton and Bill Gates in there, you would receive a Democrat Silver Star! So we can do it your way. We will not allow the oil companies to drill for oil so that they won't tell us to get lost while they ship it over to Japan or India.That'll teach them...




     ďDemocratic,Ē Mike.  It would be like me going out of my way to say RepublicRat to you if I knew it got under your skin, or to use other language that I knew you felt upset by simply to get your goat.  Please donít do that Mike.  It should be enough for you to know that other folks find it offensive.

     Now, if I had been talking about any of those other people or institutions, it would have been in a different context.  We have spoken about Haliburton in several contexts, and should you wish to broaden the discussion into a discussion about abuse of cost-plus contracts, and shifting of corporate status so that a major U.S, defense contractor has found a way to avoid paying withholding and various other taxes required of American companies doing business with the U.S. government, I would be happy to do so.  It doesnít make Haliburton look good and it doesnít make Dick Cheney look good and it doesnít make the Republican Party look good.  If you could learn to spell Democratic, I might even try it, but I suspect youíre simply trying to change the subject and not talk about what the oil companies are doing in cooperation with the current administration.  Iím basically unhappy about what the oil companies have done with any administration in the history of the country, mind you, with the possible exception of Teddy Roosevelt, but I speak with some general ignorance of a lot of the historical development of the oil companies over much of the past hundred years, only some idea of what theyíve been doing over the last sixty or so.

     Democratic.

     Bill Gates has put a lot of time and energy into some remarkable charitable projects for quite a while now.  He and his wife are fine with me.  I donít know much about Microsoft, being a MAC user by preference.  I donít know how happy the founder of Wal-Mart would be with the company these days.  He made his money on running an All-American Company, if you remember, and right proud of it.  Sam might think the kids were sharp as tacks or that theyíd sold the company and the country down the river.  Youíre going to say you know more about that than I do, I say you may, but Iím waiting to hear you stick your neck out and say how.

     I think Sam might have had his doubts about having so many of his workers pull down food stamps and health benefits from the state and county governments.  I recall he was against that sort of thing, though he was surely against unions too, and would have done anything he could have to hound any of them out of town.  You know I disagreed with him about that.

quote:
    

Thereís no substitute for actually doing the reading and listening to what the folks on the ground have to say, and reading as many books from as many different points of view as you can. I agree. Why don't you tell that to the Democrats, Bob? They have tried to second-guess everything the military commanders have told them that didn't connect what they want to hear. While you're at it, tell Obama who, after speaking with General Petraus, said something like, "Well, he's a good fella but we have disagreements." Obama having disagreements with our best general.....that should be enough to scare anyone.




     Stuff and nonsense, Mike.  The military is littered with the bodies of high ranking flag officers who disagreed with the President and the administration.  You seem to be having some memory problems.  People told him from the beginning of the waróprofessional generals, Mikeóthat he was going about things wrong.  If he had listened to them, we would be in a somewhat better situation now.  There would have been enough troops for the job, to begin with.

     My personal opinion is that the job was unnecessary in the first place.  Iím simply taking about his rejected competent military advice.

     The post invasion upheaval would have been handled differently.  No torture would have been permitted.  Counterinsurgency policy would have been started right off the bat.  The list goes on.  And youíre upset because Obama says they donít see entirely eye to eye.   Wow.

Mike, itís very late, and this cowpoke has got to punch some beeves in the morning.  Or something of that sort.

Best to you and everybody there.  BobK.

Democratic. . .  

byski
Member
since 01-26-2006
Posts 227
Alberta, Canada


57 posted 08-26-2008 08:40 PM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

Bob K,

   I do not think that there are any fundamental similarities between the named persons, especially in their beliefs. I do however look at the circumstances that they have found themselves in. Like it or not America is in political and economical turmoil, just as was the case in post WWI Germany. That is the only similarity that I am trying to point out. Citing the references throughout history, when a society reaches this point it must react to the situation or lose control of the people they are trying to preserve. It may be that neither Obama, Clinton or McCain will do anything reactionary, but more than likely some one or some organization will. It could be their successors for all I know, but a solution to the growing problems is not going to come easy.
byski
Member
since 01-26-2006
Posts 227
Alberta, Canada


58 posted 08-26-2008 09:00 PM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

Now looking at all this political jargon I will admit that I am nowhere close to being an intellectual buff on this subject. I like to consider myself someone of action. If we could take this forum and the energy that both sides have and put it toward something that will amount to more then just personal attacks on a forum that will most likely be read by less than 1% of the people it affects, I might be happy about it. However this argument has somehow boiled down to a toe to toe stand off where Mr. K feels the need to defend more than enough positions for the rest of us to get his point. I would love to see the topics discussed here to amount to more than just words and personal attacks because it is defiantly something worth reading.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


59 posted 08-26-2008 10:58 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


Dear Mr. Byski,


quote:

   I do not think that there are any fundamental similarities between the named persons, especially in their beliefs.



     Your use of passive voice has proven troublesome for you here, Mr, Byski.  It wasn't able to communicate the difference between those persons you named and the persons I named.  The persons I named were connected by my somewhat ridiculous sense of humor and my wish to make a point about a construction you used which seemed to me not to be descriptively useful. I offered two examples of how its use generated a sense of underlying meaning and portent when in fact there was only my own often badly judged and ill timed sense of humor there to give it any form at all.

      While something like this may have guided your selections, I feel that your list of two, Obama and Clinton, if that is in fact what you are talking about here and not my own list, does in fact have some things in common.  

     Perhaps this is why, in your last posting, you chose to add Senator MacCain's name to that list; it would certainly add a late but useful balance to a list composed entirely of Democratic Presidential hopefuls.  For two people who you claim to have" no fundamental similarities," it does seem remarkable how easily that phrase seems to come to mind, doesn't it?  Being an old political left wing guy, who finds both Senators Clinton and Obama (both are also Senators, I'd overlooked that one) somewhat closer to the right than I personally enjoy, I would say that both are political centrists or even what would in less extreme times be thought of as  Rockefeller Republicans.  No insult intended to any of the parties mentioned; I respect Rockefeller Republicans, they're simply a bit too far to the right for my tastes for the most part.

     All of these things amount to fundamental similarities to my mind.

     That said, I am not unmindful of the actual danger of an extreme right wing take-over of the government in this country.  To mind, I am very much afraid the damage has already been done by the current administration, by the recent Republican power in congress and by the noodle spined Democratic response, which should have taken a stand for civil liberties here and abroad.  Even should the Democrats will office all around, I am by no means sure they will have the courage to put down the tools the Republicans have voted into being and which the Democrats, for fear of appearing weak on terror have approved.

     Mr Bysky, it is not a pleasant situation before us.

     I'm unclear what the Gold Standard has to do with the situation.  I know you seem fond of the point, but I don't believe that economics actually works that way.  I do understand your comment about adulterating and debasing the money supply, and I believe that a currency can in fact be attacked.  

     I also believe that you are confusing inflation with hyperinflation, and that you do your point little good by not understanding and addressing the difference if, in fact, the economic approach is important to you.   I'd like to hear what your thinking is on this.

     It's not that I dislike scoring points in a discussion, but I'd much rather build some sort of common understanding of what's going on.  In the long run, it's more important to have people you can talk with and exchange ideas with than beat about the head and shoulders with any spare notions you have laying around the tool bench with the wrenches in the garage.

     If you don't want me defending positions, why not approach the whole thing as if it were a discussion with a friend instead of what seems, on this end, to be an attack
on a party of which I have made no secret of being a member?   Surely you might have expected a Democrat to have risen to a discussion where one of the key elements was a cartoon snarly face and another was a sentence using two Democratic Senators, both of whom had been in the Primary race for President and one of which was the Party Nominee, and linking them with Adolf Hitler in a highly problematic fashion?

     How surprised can you really be?  I mean, really?

Sincerely, Mr. K.

    

    

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60 posted 08-26-2008 11:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Back at you, Mike.  Yes. You are willing to punish the U.N. for its corruption which is not essentially different than that of the U.S. Government, The Democratic Party or even your own much beloved Republican party

Yes, Bob, I am. First because I do believe that iti s different than that of the U.S. government and second, because they are on a global scale. This was the organization to end war, the organization to band together and force any future Hitlers, Mussolinis or whatever to shut down. This was the band of merry men, the one for all and all for one answer to world peace. This is the organization that put terrorist regimes, like Libya, on the security council, the organization that has done nothing in regards to the massacres of millions of civilians in various countries, the organization that has turned their eyes away from the deaths, sufferings, obliteration of human rights and atrocities committed  since it's inception, which they swore to protect. Do I think that is different? Yes, I do. I realize that a democrat would consider the evil US government corrupt. They say it enough...

Should you care to offer specifics about any of those situations, it would be an interesting discussion,

Ah, Bob, this is a topic I could write for hours about, which I don't have and which would bore you, even if I did. I consider the democratic leader to be despicable human beings. I can think of no one in my life that I have encountered that I have respected less. They have been one one single crusade for the past eight years.....get Bush. It has been more than political, It has been personal. They have done everything possible to bring him down, calling for investigations without merit, using the press to smear him whenever possible, pointing fingers at him over everything wrong in the world,etc etc etc.

They smeared him for the soldiers' actions at AbuGhrab, in the same fashion one would attack the CEO of Burger King because an employee spilled a coke on a customer. They screamed and demanded investigations over the proposed sale of ports to Dubai, claiming that Bush was putting the security of the country at risk by allowing foreign powers port ownership, completely ignoring the fact that foreign ownership of US ports exceed 60% of our ports. They demanded investigations of port ownerships, however, since the sale was cancelled due to their rants and manipulations of the press, they have never done anything about all of those other foreign ownerships. They went after his service record, while having a candidate with no service record at all and a past president who left the country and gave anti-US speeches in another country. They went after his college record and drinking charges, ignoring that they have a candidate who admits to using drugs and a past president who did also but "never inhaled". They went after his surveillance tactics, although the vast majority of Americans agreed with them. They went after the dismissal of federal lawyers, even the figures were less than those of their past president. They have done their best to portray America as a land of gloom and despair, ruined by the Bush administration. Have they had anything positive to say? No. During the past several years that the economy was healthy and setting records for things such as low unemployment rates and higher earnings, did they acknowledge them? No. I used to even try to goad the democrats here with "What about the -IT'S ABOUT THE ECONOMY, STUPID - slogans the Democrats used to chant? Where are they now?"  Not one democrat responded. They had nothing to say, since the economy was in good shape. Now that it has turned for the worse, the Democrats are back with their slogans. Have they hd anything positive to say about anything good happening in Iraq? No, but they will be sure to get the newspapers to highlight anything bad. What has been good for America has been bad for them. They are not interested in the good of America, any positivity at all - they are only interested in portraying America as a disaster, thanks to George Bush. They get people like Jennifer to rant about more wars, more torture, more killing, more of our money in big oilís pockets, more of our troops coming home in body bags, more debt, more cronyism, more failed foreign policy, more of our freedoms and rights down the tube, more losing their jobs, their homes, while more no bid contracts keep on filling Bush and Cheneyís Carlyle/Haliburton coffers The Democrats have been interested in nothing more than to present to the citizenship, and the world, that the Uinted States is a disaster (beacuse they are not in charge). They have given more aid and comfort to the enemy than anyone else could ever do with their constant attacks on the administration. They do not care about America. They only care about America if they are in power and they will trash it if they are not. Nancy Pelosi said, "Put us in charge in congress and we will clean out the swamp". She has done nothing, except add to whatever swamp she referred to with her own investigations and misgivings. She has managed to give Congress their worst rating in history. They don't want to really DO anything. They just want to be in charge. The power is the only thing that matters to them and they will trash anyone, anything and even the country to achieve their goals. Specifics, Bob? I could wallpaper your house with specifics. They have done nothing but attack for eight years, to the point that they have turned Americans off....and they don't even realize it. They do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot and make themselves look foolish doing it. They have lowered the image of America in the eyes of the world with their constant frivolous attacks and they have done it intentionally. In my opinion, they are not deserving of the respect I give a cockroach before I squish it.  I hope I've made my feelings clear enough.

And if you think that the environment is another scare tactic, you werenít paying attention to that article that Huan Yi was posting about the north polar ice cap.

I didn't see anything in that article that related to oil spills or man-made environmental disasters, which is the spin the democrats have tried using.


The military is littered with the bodies of high ranking flag officers who disagreed with the President and the administration

and which is Obama, the president or the administration?  He goes to Iraq, speaks to the general in charge who has more military ability in his pinkie than Obama could ever hope to have, and comes away saying they have differences. He also claimed the surge didn't work, of course, even though it is accepted by every fact and figure that it did. Does that scare me? Oh, yes...

as I've said  before, Bob, we are just spinning our wheels, with little hope of changing the other's point of view. You don't need to respond to anything I've said here but there is one thing I'd appreciate your doing.

Go through your day and point out all the the things wrong with America as it is today. No political talking points, no opinions from political pundits - just you and your day and what you see. Walk down the street, into the stores, maybe a restaurant, watch the people, look at the clean streets, maybe a cop car going by once in a while, and tell me what's wrong with the country, tell me about this "horrible" state we are in and about the "erosion of our human rights" you experience and tell me about this great "change" we must have to keep us from going down the tubes. I'd appreciate your views on this.

Bob K
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61 posted 08-27-2008 02:30 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mike,

          I think that the best thing for me to do here is actually take some time and look around and take your suggestion.  My temptation is to reply to the the comments you offer about Democrats and the Democratic perspective, but I'll put that aside, spend some time walking and looking around.

     You should understand that Elaine and I live a literal two minute walk from Beverly Hills and we are cheek by jowl with Hollywood.  It'd be nice if we could afford to buy here instead of simply renting.  So the response you'll get will necessarily be a bit on the skewed side simply because this is an area a bit rich for our blood.  But yours is a fair request and deserves a fair response.  I'll give it a shot.

Affectionately, Bob Kaven
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62 posted 08-27-2008 09:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Bob. Ideally, you would be living in a small town in the midwest or anywhere else for that matter but I'll accept whatever you offer, even if it does come from fantasyland

I'm sure you have an interesting life there with quite a collection of stories you could tell...

As you go through the day, please remember the story of the traveler meeting an old man sitting alongside the road and asking about the town ahead. The old man told him that it was a miserable town, where the people were rude, insulting and offensive and he would hate it there. Shortly thereafter another traveler wandered up to the old man and asked him the same question. "It's a wonderful town", the old man replied. "The people are warm, friendly and very obliging. You will love it there."

Both travelers found the town to be exactly the way the old man described it.
byski
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63 posted 08-27-2008 10:45 PM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

I almost regret bringing forward my arguments now, since this has turned into something of keeping tabs on the numbers that I present. In my best efforts, I did not try to put together an argument supported by dates and numbers but rather I tried to highlight some fundamental beliefs that seem quite obvious. No, there is no hyperinflation that exists in the world today, but are you comfortable in the fact that there will not be some sort of economical force that wipes out the middle class in America? For this I have no arguments that you would consider valid, either than the nation is almost sub prime with paying off all the debt that it has accumulated in the past four terms. The working force entering America cannot support the health care bill as well as cover the retiring baby boomers, just from sheer numbers. The American dollar is a toxic currency and combined with the improving future of outside investors I feel that the future of America is bleak indeed. My arguments are not meant to be dissected and ridiculed or even political for that matter, rather to make all sides of the argument think in new ways. To you the Democratic party may seem centralist in their platforms, but can you not agree that to the rest of the world this is still staunch conservationism? In the global scheme of things this covers a narrow point of the political spectrum, and either way that you look at it it needs a fundamental change. What will the next generation think of times like these? How are they going to respond when they are handed this mess of economics and said "here, fix it"? You may not agree with my opinions and surly you will throw your own out with hard fact to back them up, I just want you to take a step back and try to see this situation without your current perspective.
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64 posted 08-28-2008 03:21 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mr. Byski,

                 I have difficulty responding to your posting here.  I don't think that wanting to have the kind of feeling criticism you speak of offering put in terms of facts and hard reality is unreasonable on my part.  Nor do I wish to discount the importance of listening to and paying attention to the sort of issues you put voice to for me either.  I think, in fact, that both are obligations of civil discourse.  People interested in political and civic issues need to hear each other out, both ways.  If you feel I am selling you short, you have a real reason to be upset.  You should be able to expect that from me, even if we are from different countries.  It's part of defining yourself as civilized by any reasonable (that word again) standard.

     I believe that I am obligated to at least try to think things through in speaking with you and other people.  This doesn't mean that I am right, only that I feel I have a reasonable (again) point and perspective to offer.  I should be able to tell the people I am talking with what I've based my opinions on.  That includes facts and figures, honestly come by and honestly offered, with the reservations that I have about these things laid out.  I don't want to undermine my own position in talking about things by overstating my reservations about my own various thoughts; but I don't want to pretend that I'm monolithic in my sense of rightness, either.

     I am interested in your beliefs and thoughts, but I want to know where you get them and why you think the way you do.  Common sense is not enough to my particular way of thinking.  Nobody obligates you to comply with my somewhat oddball thought processes, though. Should you actually want to have a discussion with me as best as the two of us can manage it, I will ask about such things and expect to be asked about them in return, respectfully as possible, because it's always helpful to be talking about the same reality.  That's one of the reason's facts and research are helpful; so everybody understands what the reality is that's under discussion.  Talk gets very frustrating when you think you're talking about the same thing and it turns out you're not.  It's the old apples and pears business from math class.  Obvious and fundamental beliefs have a nasty way of changing on you when you aren't looking.  That's when it's not enough to accept them at face value most of the time in a serious discussion.  If it's just me and my like minded pals, we all share the same assumptions to start out with; how likely is it we're going to figure out  that running around wearing white sheets and burning crosses on other folks' lawns is not a rational policy statement?

     Not very, he said, hastily answering his own question.

quote:
Mr. Byski:
No, there is no hyperinflation that exists in the world today, but are you comfortable in the fact that there will not be some sort of economical force that wipes out the middle class in America?



     No, I'm not.  In fact I think that since the 2000 election that process has been more or less steadily under way.  I believe the current economic policies of the U.S. government may well destroy the middle classes in the United States, or at least bring them back to where they were before F.D.R. took office in 1932.  The far right wing in this country seems to have been trying to undo the new deal and the various  pieces of social and economic progress that have come out of it since FDR died.  It seems that the efforts have accelerated since the election of Ronald Reagan.  I am very frightened about the potential economic and social collapse  of this country as a result of the conservative government in the country since that time.  In my more upset moments, I believe it may even be likely.

     If I've given you cause to think otherwise, I'm very sorry.  These are in fact my views.

     I would like to point out to you that as much as you would wish your views would not be ridiculed and dissected, and as much as you believe they are not political, you overlook an important point of reality here.  It is completely separate from your rightness or wrongness.  (I agree with you about some things, not about others, in case you wondered.)  The point of reality I raise is simply this:  Once the words leave your mouth, you lose complete control over how people react to them.

     You can hope they won't be wretched to you personally, I know I hold that hope, but they are basically free to make whatever response to what may be considered political discourse as they deem politic.  They deem broadly indeed.  I would suggest to you that this is yet one more reason to be careful that you try to confine yourself as much as possible to actual fact which you can use solid research to back up.  Facts are not impossible to slime, but they tend to be more resilient.

quote:
  Mr. Byski:
To you the Democratic party may seem centralist in their platforms, but can you not agree that to the rest of the world this is still staunch conservationism? In the global scheme of things this covers a narrow point of the political spectrum, and either way that you look at it it needs a fundamental change.



     In do in fact agree.  The neoconservatives have managed the political dialogue in this country from quite a number of years.  They have done some very funny things with the English Language.  They have managed to convince the American public that The Democratic Party is a group of flaming Left Wing  nut-jobs when it is probablyóin world wide termsónothing more than a slightly right of center Party with an attempt to include some members of labor (hardly a respectable Labour Party in English Terms, for example; ours is far too much to the right) but also many business people and business interests as well.  The Degree to which the Democrats have been able to be quiet about health care reform alone, for example, is shocking to anybody who would believe them anything approaching Left Wing status.

     Our neoconservatives, on the other hand, are very close to the nazis of the thirties.  They are friendly with the Right wing in Italy and in almost everyplace else where there is what most places would consider a fascist or extreme right wing government.  I suspect that's why Bush could look Putin in the eye and see a soul mate.  Not that Putin is so much a communist as he is a very far right wing oligarch, almost a czar, I would imagine, at the head of a new Russian Empire.  The two boys are brothers.

     It's gotten fairly late for me here, but I thought I owed you at least this much of a response.  Hope all is well with you.  

Bob K.


              
byski
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65 posted 08-28-2008 08:22 PM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

Dear Bob,

   Thank you for your to the point response. It is one of my shortcomings to not be able to take criticism as quickly as I can give it out, so I thank you for understanding me. Since we have been talking about what can affect perspective I feel obliged to give you a sense of where I come from. I am currently 22 years old, graduated out of technical college last year and just starting to get a taste of what the real world is like. But have no fear, things are going well as they can. I grew up with an extremely fortunate set of circumstances, but because of the proximity of my home to those who were not so well off I have a sort of pessimistic view of the political structure.

   I can spend hours pointing out the folly of social security programs and how they effect a hand to mouth kind of existence. I can also spend an even longer time as to how this continent we live in is the most fortunate to have since I am taking advantage of many of those programs and advantages. By default I understand that everything that I have to say, even if it is not my intention, can have its political spin on it. But, and this is in my humble personal opinion, the real issues that affect our day to day lives are not being addressed with the care that it needs to be.

   CO2 emissions are a global threat, why is it that only 2 billion dollars are spent on the environmental program when 80 billion is spent on Iraq (2007). Why is it that in Canada alone the entire MasterCard debt divided over each man, women and child is over $20,000 (2006, Canada Revenue Agency)? I am concerned for the facts presented but the thing that I am most concerned about cannot truly be expressed in fact. When I turned 18 and received the right to vote, the right that generations of men and women have died for and continue to die for to protect, only 12% of first time voters in Canada actually voted. That does not even do service to the fact that many young people do not even know who is representing them in the political system on all three levels (Municipal, Provincial, Federal). The fact that I am most concerned about is since there is such political and economical crisis in the world, most people my age life in the now not caring about their future. This can have indirect links to the rising number of teen suicides, teens starting smoking and exponential growth of drug use.

   I agree with you that debate is necessary for the growth of our society, wholeheartedly. But what good does this speech do when no one is listening. I am concerned for the future because people my age see that the system in place does not work, and therefore they plan to manipulate it or destroy it. Now, I do not mean to generalize all young people of this generation, there any many things to be thought fondly of and to be hopeful for. But if only 10% of this generation would feel as strongly as I do, or half as strong as you do, there would be great changes indeed. Speculation, generalization yes. But I am merely a poet, a small voice in an overwhelming blaze of static noise.
Bob K
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66 posted 08-29-2008 01:18 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



But Mr. Byski, you are a poet that makes perfectly good sense.  

     I'll try to get back in a day or two, but your sense seems obvious.  The question remains, I suspect, how does a guy talk about it, and what is the audience that needs to hear what's being said?  How does a guy reach them?

Best from L.A.,  Bob Kaven
JenniferMaxwell
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67 posted 08-29-2008 12:36 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1285545,00.jpg
byski
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68 posted 08-29-2008 10:18 PM       View Profile for byski   Email byski   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit byski's Home Page   View IP for byski

I would like to say anyone and everything and do anything you can, but that is ridiculous. I also will need to spend some time to think about a useful answer, since I can see that we share a same worry for that problem. The answer is not going to be an easy one.
threadbear
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69 posted 09-15-2008 01:22 AM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

This kind of post, with its overworked Hitler/Germany theme (snore)is exactly the kind of post-and-run posts that used to be on Yahoo blogs beneath news stories.  Both Left & Right did it.  It resulted in Yahoo eventually eleminating ALL Yahoo blogs because people couldn't keep their posts civil and because posters too often went for the 'cheap dig.'

I'm just saying ....
Bob K
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70 posted 09-15-2008 01:56 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Mr. Threadbear,

                  I thought that the thread ended on a remarkable note of understanding.  Perhaps I'm missing something that seems obvious to you and that you'd care to point out.  I agree that Hitler's name is greatly overused, especially by people who have no idea of the history or the politics of that time.

Yours, Bob Kaven
threadbear
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71 posted 09-15-2008 07:16 PM       View Profile for threadbear   Email threadbear   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for threadbear

I was trying to make the point to Jaime that any attempted connection to Hitler misses the whole point of what 60,000,000 people died for.  Was not commenting on the whole thread.  Thanks!
Huan Yi
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72 posted 09-19-2008 06:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The one thing that I donít care for
is the prospect of four years of the charge of racism
being thrown out in response to criticism.
I wouldnít expect that with Powell but weíve
already seen it with Obama.
  

.
Bob K
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73 posted 09-20-2008 03:10 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Huan Yi,

                     Following the use that the neo-cons made of Powell's sense of loyalty through Bush's first term, I suspect that it will be a while before you'll get him to trust the party again.  It's a pity.  I think he would have made a better candidate than McCain.  I would have been pleased either way with an election between Powell and Obama; though, being a Democrat and a Liberal, I have a clear preference for Obama.  With Powell, I would have felt that the man was actively bending all his efforts to the good of the country.  I think of him in somewhat the same way that I thought of Ike, many disagreements but basic respect.

     As for Senator Obama, I hear you bringing up racism and attributing it to him.  It's a fact in the country and will affect the way the the election will play out.  How much, I don't know.  In the same way, Governor Palin has mentioned sexism,  It too is an issue that will affect things one way or another; no use complaining about that, either.    I'm basically fond of Obama, though I wish he were a bit more clearly to the left of where he is.  Senator McCain has been supporting the economics and foreign policy of the current folks for the whole time Bush has  been in office, voting with the party 90-95% of the time.  His claims that it's time for big changes in the way regulations are enforced on Wall Street ring hollow.  He could have shown his independence any time over the past eight years and voted against this mess, but he's simply gone along.  Why believe this rhetoric now?

     But you see things differently.

Best to you, Huan Yi.

Bob Kaven
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74 posted 09-23-2008 10:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I am not aware of the Investor Business Daily as being politically biased so I offer this excerpt from them..
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=302137342405551
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