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Passions in Poetry

God-fearing....or not.

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Balladeer
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0 posted 12-06-2007 05:44 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


NPR this morning spoke about Congress returning from the Thanksgiving break and the first order of business was a prayer to open the session. The first two words of the prayer were "Dear Lord....".

Outside, workers were preparing the "holiday" tree.


Does anyone else see anything strange about this scenario?????

Denise
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1 posted 12-06-2007 06:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yep.
Stephanos
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2 posted 12-06-2007 08:59 PM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I think there will always be a tension between the attempt to completely secularize government, and the persistent feeling that religious piety is good and necessary.


Stephen
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3 posted 12-06-2007 09:16 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well, an atheist might argue that they shouldn't be praying.

I don't mind, though. And it may be a quibbling point, but the difference is, that if the quote is accurate, when praying "Dear Lord," there is no attempt to qualify which Lord, whereas, the term "Christmas" does.

And I have no idea why I'm entering a fray when I have no emotional attachment to the outcome.

Just playing "devil's advocate"? ?
Essorant
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4 posted 12-06-2007 10:44 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Serenity,


there is no attempt to qualify which Lord, whereas, the term "Christmas" does.


But so do these:


Tuesday (The day of Tue/Tiw)
Wednesday (The day of Woden)
Thursday (The day of Thor)
Friday (The day of Frigg)
Saturday (The day of Saturn)

Easter (The Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring)

January (The month of Janus)
March (The Month of Mars)
May (The Month of Maia)
June (The Month of Juno)


Some people think the word April is etymologically connected to Aphrodite, as well.  

If Christmas is to be disputed, why isn't Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, etc?  


serenity blaze
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5 posted 12-06-2007 11:06 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Maybe it's because Christianity is the dominant religion today?

And paganism is shrugged off as quaint nods to mythology?

I dunno.

As I said above, I don't particularly care.

But others might be riled if our congressmen began their prayers to "Dear Lord Jesus Christ".

There's a difference and you know that, Essorant.  

But then, maybe you are just playing devil's advocate too?

I don't really mind, but it does remind me of a recent "true serenity story".

(I pause to allow everybody time to groan.)

We discovered, just recently, that our old um, Holiday decorations which were bought to fit the windows of our previous home didn't fit the slimmer windows on this house.

So when my daughter put up the twinkly-lights and such, we went outside to examine her handiwork. The 'problem' became apparent when the word "JOY" which is dotted with happy little twinklers, was only partially visable.

That's right. We stood on the sidewalk and watched the word, OY, blinking, totally unaware that there might be a problem.  

I just shrugged and said "leave it".

My daughter took it down, because it might potentially cause offense.

She's a thoughtful one, she is.


Balladeer
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6 posted 12-07-2007 06:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Serenity, I know a little about a few religions and have even studied mythology and the realm of the Druids but I;ve never come across one where the main character was referred to as The Lord, except Christianity. If you have, I'd be interested in knowing which one....
serenity blaze
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7 posted 12-07-2007 06:28 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lord

definition 8, applies, I think.

And there ARE others, but either give me time, or do your own research. (I say that with love, Mike. You know that.)

I'm being pointedly serene tonight.

Even if I must be obtuse.

And shrug...I like my daughter's attitude.

Correction: I LOVE my daughter's attitude...she's just so, loving of all peoples. When I grow up, I wanna be just like her.

*peace* and yes, JOY to you.

And Merry Christmas too, since I know that's your preference!

Essorant
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8 posted 12-07-2007 10:33 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

It is "politically correct" to accept names after figures most people don't believe in (Woden, Thor, Frigg, etc,) but not after a figure most do believe in, that is, Jesus Christ?  

Political correctness may make much ado about Lord too.  For example, it may take the masculine implied in the word as discriminating against the feminine gender.

Balladeer
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9 posted 12-08-2007 01:51 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, serene one, I read through that entire link and all of the definitions of lord but found no other religious reference to the word except "Christianity Jesus" and "terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God" so I repeat my question. Are there any other religions that address their top honcho as the Lord?
Susan Caldwell
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10 posted 12-08-2007 03:13 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Do I have a problem with the praying in a gov. office or do I have a problem with what I see as the hypocrisy?

meh...it's a losing battle.

I must respect their's but they hold not a sliver of respect for what I believe or even my disbelief for that matter.

We have baby showers and such at my Government office and they usually say a prayer.  At one time there was a bible study group that took over what was supposed to be the lunch room, at lunch.  

So I have a problem with both I suppose but I am fairly certain I wouldn't have a problem with the praying at all if there were no hypocrisy involved...

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

rwood
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11 posted 12-08-2007 08:35 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

These congressional members of non Judeo-Christian belief were all, most likely, present during that meeting:

1 Muslim
2 Buddhists
6 unaffiliated (inconclusive?)
16 Mormons
2 Unitarians, one of which--Rep. Fortney "Pete" Stark, D-Calif.- the first openly "nontheistic" member of Congress.

Chart provided here.

quote:
I think there will always be a tension between the attempt to completely secularize government, and the persistent feeling that religious piety is good and necessary.


I feel religious piety is only good and necessary during the opening of a congressional meeting if all beliefs are given an equal platform of supplication or non-supplication due to non-belief.

Otherwise, good and necessary become systematically hypocritical with the press of one religion upon all others. IMO, This belies the first order of government: “We the People.” and is principally unsound with the principles of a democracy.

Even Michael’s title of this thread deserves a consideration of belief.

Some fear a god of wrath and some believe in a god of love who has never exhibited any such notion as wrath, and I think he's covered that, acceptably.


serenity blaze
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12 posted 12-08-2007 03:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Hon, I'm not arguing with you because I can't--I am not arguing with you because I won't.

I thought it was pretty clear that I do not give a ...drat?

I have no personal preference of religion--I find them divisive--as evidenced by this thread.

But okay.

Sure. You win.

(I don't have much emotional attachment to that either.)

Ho?
Balladeer
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13 posted 12-08-2007 05:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exactly, Susan. It was the hypocracy I was pointing out. I have no problem with their praying at all but I do have a problem with a Christmas tree now being a holiday tree because a reference to Jesus would be harmful to the psyche of some of our illustrious citizens...and the courts back them up, along with banning christmas school plays and carols.

So to have Congress praying to God mere feet from where workers are working on the "holiday" tree is a snapshot of hypocracy at work "fuming"
Marge Tindal
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14 posted 12-08-2007 06:26 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Just popping in on an interesting subject~

Balladeer~
quote:
Are there any other religions that address their top honcho as the Lord?


Google Native Indian Lord -
You will find many, many legends where the "Lords" are used~
Lord of the Cold Wind
Lord of the Sky
etc etc etc

*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

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serenity blaze
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15 posted 12-08-2007 08:03 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*chuckling*



*tag*
Balladeer
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16 posted 12-08-2007 08:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Marge,for the info.

And it may be a quibbling point, but the difference is, that if the quote is accurate, when praying "Dear Lord," there is no attempt to qualify which Lord,

Now, if congress were praying to an Indian lord, it makes one wonder which one...the mind boggles with the examples I could come up with.
serenity blaze
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17 posted 12-08-2007 08:36 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Well now--you have no idea if some of them are NOT, now do ya?

*shrugging* Just because it boggles your mind, doesn't mean that others can't fill-in-the-blank, so to speak.

and thanks Margie,
Essorant
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18 posted 12-08-2007 09:18 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What about someone whose religion doesn't believe in Christmas or this "holiday", and doesn't believe in celebrating it at all?  Are there not people out there with such religions?  How are you respecting their religion, when you put Christmas decorations on your house, and they may see them, and they may be offended.  When you sing about Christmas and they may hear and they may be offended, when you post images or poems, etc, and they may see them and they may be offended.  Just because you aren't offended doesn't mean they are not.  If one should stop expressing and celebrating his religion or something connected somewhat with religion, in public, whether in a more common or more formal setting, just because it isn't what someone elses religion may be and he or she and his/her religion may feel offended by it, then NO ONE can express or celebrate ANYTHING because there is always a possiblility (and often the likelihood) that someone else's religion in the neighbourhood is not the same, doesn't agree, and that person may take offence.  Expecting people not to express or celebrate religions in public or politics is not what I consider respecting religions, but unduly discriminating against them.  


serenity blaze
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19 posted 12-08-2007 09:32 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Quite a speech.

But who are you talking to?
Essorant
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20 posted 12-08-2007 10:27 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

To the readers of this thread.

PS that should be "whom are you talking to?"
serenity blaze
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21 posted 12-08-2007 10:40 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ah...I was confused. You used the term "you", and since your post was directly after mine I thought perhaps you'd confused me with the Sheriff of the Lawn Ornament police.



Thanks for clearning that up.
rwood
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22 posted 12-09-2007 08:01 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
Expecting people not to express or celebrate religions in public or politics is not what I consider respecting religions, but unduly discriminating against them.


That's a good point.

According to the First Amendment: Separation of Church & State. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of." Or congress could pass a law that only Episcopalians can be president, for example. Or only Christians may express their religion in public, etc.

Which if one looks at American history???? Hmmmm, there's no law there, but who creates the foundations of a government? The people do. And since the majority of a people rules, we have a predominantly Anglican history. Well of course that's gonna affect politics, as well as what hits close to home such as prayer in school & holiday celebrations.  

John F. Kennedy was our first and only Roman Catholic president.

quote:
To address fears that his Catholicism would impact his decision-making, he famously told the Greater Houston Ministerial Association on September 12, 1960, "I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who also happens to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my Church on public matters — and the Church does not speak for me."[14] Kennedy also brought up the point of whether one-quarter of Americans were relegated to second-class citizenship just because they were Catholic.wiki


Imagine what anyone who isn't Judeo-Christian must feel if Kennedy felt second-class.

I think it's a form of "Payback" which probably isn't the best way to describe such discriminations, but peoples of other religions are exercising their rights and I feel they must rely on separation of church and state, not because they are intolerant of Christianity, but because much of Christianity is intolerant of them. Many people want to keep prayer in schools, as long as it's Christian prayer, not Muslim or Buddhist prayer, and the very thought of Wiccan or Pagan prayer sends people into riotous protests or hysteria.

Equality is equality, and I don't feel it's anyone's God or Godlessness, or the complete neutrality of either, that's creating the inequality & disparities. I feel it's the power of human intolerance.
Marge Tindal
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23 posted 12-09-2007 09:12 AM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

I can only attest to what I personally do when speaking to others about prayers that I've offered up for them ... I tell them, "May The Lord-of-your-knowing, bless and keep you."

SereneOne~
We do think much alike, yes ?
For I know that you also share immense respect for the 'religion' or 'beliefs' of others~

I have never been bothered by another's public display of their beliefs, culture, and/or religion~
I truly can't imagine why it would bother anyone~

May The-Lord-Of-YOUR-Knowing bless and keep you this day~

*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*The sound of a kiss is not as strong as that of a cannon, but it's echo endures much longer*~
Email -     noles1@totcon.com   

Essorant
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24 posted 12-09-2007 12:55 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Many people want to keep prayer in schools, as long as it's Christian prayer, not Muslim or Buddhist prayer, and the very thought of Wiccan or Pagan prayer sends people into riotous protests or hysteria.



I agree.  Extremism is a problem. But I don't think having a respectful preference is.  A minority has preference of one religious manner over another as well.  If it were the majority it would be the similar "many" but saying Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan etc, instead of Christian or something else.

 
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