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Passions in Poetry

Labor Party Wins in Australia

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TomMark
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50 posted 11-30-2007 05:15 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

==="I don't disagree, Noah. That's the case on BOTH sides. We know what the oil side wants out of it. Ask yourself what the other side wants."

My dear mercy magic Mike
Pray state your solid fact
before we try to trace back
along the scientific trend track.
hush
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51 posted 11-30-2007 06:15 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I can't even stnad to read this crap, because it's all politics. Standing on one side and blaming the other contributes nothing to a genuine dialogue or solution. I can't argue with any certainty about Kyoto because I don't know enough about it. It has been shown that the planet is warming- once again, I'm no expert... I know that historically, over long periods of time, the earth has always fluctuated... but here's the thing, for me... whether or not human activity is causing this warming (and I do believe we're at least contributing), doesn't it simply make sense to cut down on environmental pollutants that we add to the atmosphere? Cleaner, renewable fuels... they make sense economically and environmentally. So why all the resistance? Why all the argument? Whether or not "climate change" is the issue, why wouldn't we want clean, renewable sources of energy?
Grinch
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52 posted 11-30-2007 06:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Why all the argument? Whether or not "climate change" is the issue, why wouldn't we want clean, renewable sources of energy?


Thanks for the injection of common sense Hush

Sounds like a winning argument to me.

There is no concrete evidence that ties man to global warming, or global cooling or even which of the two cyclical cycles we happen to be in right now, the problem is that there’s simply not enough data due to the near geological timescales we’re talking about. So why not apply a little of Hush’s common sense and reduce emissions simply because it’s a good idea, if it saves the world too, well that’s a bonus.

Huan Yi
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53 posted 11-30-2007 07:42 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"First of all, I don't think it's within the power of human beings to assure that the climate does not change, as millions of years of history have shown. And second of all, I guess I would ask which human beings — where and when — are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings"


To me this is the essential question
which doesn't require a PHD to ask
but more than that to answer.

If you asking an individual or a nation
or a world to divert its limited resources
from other concerns to resolving this issue
I think there should be less controversy as to the need.

I recently read that China's car usage
in the next generation will increase by
a factor of 15 which will make inconsequential all efforts combined currently proposed.


.
TomMark
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54 posted 11-30-2007 08:02 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Huan, they are human-powered cars in China.
can't count in!
Ron
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55 posted 11-30-2007 10:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... doesn't it simply make sense to cut down on environmental pollutants that we add to the atmosphere?

You mean like carbon dioxide, Amy? You know, that stuff you're exhaling with every breath?

Sure, cutting down on environmental pollutants makes a lot of sense. You really want to hold your breath that long, though?

Of course I'm being a little facetious by highlighting extreme examples, but I hope maybe it can help demonstrate the real problem. We all want to get rid of environmental pollutants -- as long as it's somebody else's pollutants. If I was in a slightly less cynical state of mind I might pose that a little differently, I suppose. I might, for example, contend that virtually all instances of pollution can be represented by a cost/benefit analysis. The CO2 you exhale carries a cost to the environment, but it's a cost greatly outweighed by the benefits of having you around. That's, again, the extreme example. But what about my SUV? There's a cost there, too, and a benefit as well, but neither is quite as extreme, nor, I believe, quite so trenchant. I *really* don't like being confined to the house every time it snows more than a few inches, so I'm willing to pay both the personal cost and the social cost.

I don't think anyone wastes energy because they're evil and want to destroy humanity. It's all about cost and benefit, about The Tragedy of the Commons, about finances and economics. I don't believe the solution to pollution is going to be an appeal to self-sacrifice, but rather, a leveraging of self-interest.

'Cause I, for one, sure don't intend holding my breath long enough to make any real difference.
TomMark
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56 posted 11-30-2007 11:57 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Ron

==="If I was in a slightly less cynical state of mind I might pose that a little differently, I suppose. I might, for example, contend that virtually all instances of pollution can be represented by a cost/benefit analysis."

Oh, dear sir Ron, wish you a wonderful weekend and drive safely.

and what exact benefit can you get from any pollution? name them and list them Before you or any one else is able to calculate the cost and the cost to get rid of them?
Ron
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57 posted 12-01-2007 12:38 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I already listed a few, TM. Did you read the post? What part(s) didn't you understand?
TomMark
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58 posted 12-01-2007 12:48 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Ron, the planet has a status of what it is as what it is. Global warming is caused by extra...the extra---out of balance.

And it seems that the original status as human inhale/exhale worries you? you are too kind!

Local Rebel
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59 posted 12-01-2007 01:15 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I don't believe the solution to pollution is going to be an appeal to self-sacrifice, but rather, a leveraging of self-interest.



Ding ding ding ding ding ding -- Ron wins the green star... as it were....

Here again -- the Right wants to paint us into picturing the choices between status quo oil burning (think BP's 'green' advertising featuring a woman who says she doesn't want to give up her car) and becoming luddites.  Granted - we even have a luddite or two at this pub.

Amy illustrates quite well how well the big oil money campaign to just confuse is working -- somehow I don't think she's more concerned about Beyonce's arm pits or Paris Hilton's mating habits -- yet -- the entire scope of trying to understand the science is just overwhelming.

As I've pointed out numerous times before -- the solution to science problems is science.  Unfortunately -- policy becomes embroiled in the issue.  And, when there is a buck to be made -- and a market protected -- it's better to obfuscate and stall and make sure that all the oil gets pumped out of the ground and sold -- Ron -- you really, really, don't believe there aren't any evil people involved here do you?

And Mike -- if you really care about getting to the truth about the Oregon Petition -- I've left the cookie crumbs for you to follow.

Here are your questions for study;

How many of the signatories are climatologists or even in the physical sciences?

What is the National Academy of Science's position on the Oregon Petition?

Who is the principle author of the OP?  What are his credentials?

Who are the secondary authors? What institute are they tied to?  

What oil company do they work for?

Oops -- that last one just slipped out.

Now -- everyone dream tonite of a bacteria that belches hydrogen.....and what do we get when we burn hydrogen?  Ah -- yes -- water -- without carbon......

  
Balladeer
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60 posted 12-01-2007 02:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So why all the resistance? Why all the argument? Whether or not "climate change" is the issue, why wouldn't we want clean, renewable sources of energy?

Well said, hush. The question is whether the Kyoto Protocol is the answer or even necessary.

LR, well, you're consistent. Instead of answering questions you throw out links like confetti and bread crumbs and say go find the answers...thanks anyway.
Grinch
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61 posted 12-01-2007 05:21 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Another example of common sense?
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/article.cfm?contentID=5828

It seems that even those big bad industrialists have their moments. I understand that the oil companies Shell and BP have also joined in the call for emmision caps and restrictions.

Perhaps they have children too.
TomMark
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62 posted 12-01-2007 10:43 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir balladeer,
==="The question is whether the Kyoto Protocol is the answer or even necessary."

Answer to what?

Necessary for what?

Kyoto...a goodwill.
Balladeer
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63 posted 12-01-2007 06:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tom, the answer to the question should the US join Kyoto or not and will Australia regret doing so?
TomMark
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64 posted 12-01-2007 06:44 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

My dear sir Balladeer, to be honest with you, I try to trap you to say that the answer to Global  Warming.

I did not get you. but I am still waiting for you to change mind.
TomMark
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65 posted 12-03-2007 11:26 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Balladeer, Time DEC 10,2007 Page 24.

Do you want to make a comment on the photo of Bush and Gore?

Tom
Not A Poet
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66 posted 12-04-2007 11:06 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

For one thing, Gore looks like he is way overindulging in more than just energy.
TomMark
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67 posted 12-04-2007 11:47 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

I can't believe that Gore is that Bat(bad). But he is a politician who loves to make deals on money matter. You don't believe his sincerity on Global  Warming Issue? Not A Poet?

Tom
Not A Poet
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68 posted 12-04-2007 02:20 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Absolutely not. How could anyone, considering his excessive consumption? And buying carbon credits from himself is a farce. In fact, the whole carbon credits scam is a farce.
Balladeer
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69 posted 12-04-2007 03:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You say it like it is, Pete.
TomMark
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70 posted 12-04-2007 03:44 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

"Dangerous Liaisons" ---Brad

Sir Balladeer, I am glad that you finally get a teammate. But he is Not A Poet.

I think that Gore has spent quite amount of energy on that topic so I can't say that he took it as a joking matter. I think that you are biased..you two.

Not A Poet
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71 posted 12-04-2007 05:12 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Yes, I am biased. I would prefer to hear truth from a speaker with some credibility. All right then, who is not biased?
TomMark
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72 posted 12-04-2007 08:25 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Not A Poet,
BIASE MEANS NOT FAIR It is a matter of CHARACTOR.  
 
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