How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Heartless Obama?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Heartless Obama?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


0 posted 10-29-2007 12:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer




Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem.
Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT O NLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????

According to Scopes....

The photograph itself is real, one of several images of the Iowa steak fry event published by Time, and shows Barack Obama standing with his hands clasped just below his waist, while New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, New York senator Hillary Clinton, and Ruth Harkin (wife of Iowa senator Tom Harkin) stand with their hands held over their hearts. It's difficult to judge exactly what's going on from a single still image (it's possible, for example, that the photograph captured an instant just before or just after the national anthem was played, and Senator Obama had not yet raised his right hand or had just lowered it), but accounts of the event indicate that the picture is as described.

Such an act would be consistent with Senator Obama's response when he was asked in October 2007 interviews about his not wearing a U.S. flag pin in his lapel, a gesture which he said he had abandoned in favor of actions he considered more meaningfully patriotic:
The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin. Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism

Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.


So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?

Obama doesn't think so...what say you?
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


1 posted 10-29-2007 01:01 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Hey Michael, glad to see you living on the wild side with the centered font!

*

To answer your question, in my experience, particularly during Memorial Day services, national anthems at sports games and during elementary school when me and my classmates recited the anthem at the beginning of class, I would always have my hand on my heart, which I think was just a natural habit in that, after all, that's the way we see Americans reciting the national anthem usually, so I was just comfortable and familiar with it.

Look, I certainly don't think it's the end of the world or anything when someone doesn't happen to place their hand over ones heart during their pledge for whatever reason. But I do understand the curiosity at least behind this, as many in the Democratic Party among the Evangelical community in particular have often been accused of not only talking about faith enough in their campaigns, but that they also are somewhat unsympathetic to the faith-based community, and it's things like this that, whether intentionally or unintentionally saying something, reinforce and sinew that negative stereotype about the leadership of the Democratic Party and faith.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


2 posted 10-29-2007 01:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks, Noah. No, definitely not the end of the world but, for a presidential candidate on center stage with other candidates and cameras one has to wonder if the man is that stupid or that rebellious or that self-confident in his own views. If he NEVER placed his hand over his heart, it would be one thing..to not do it on a public platform while doing itat other times does make one wonder. Perhaps he did not want to say "under God" but then I lose track. Is that still in the pledge or not?
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


3 posted 10-29-2007 02:16 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

No, I agree, Michael. It's lousy public relations when you're surrounded by others who are making the pledge, yet you're not doing so, especially when 76% of Americans in a recent poll identified themselves as Christians with a majority saying they recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.....that's for sure.

Last time I checked, by the way.....yes, "one nation under God" is still definitely included in the Pledge of Allegiance. I still hear some accidentally chant "invisible" rather than "indivisible", LOL, but "under God" is a central part of the Allegiance and has been since it was first written.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


4 posted 10-29-2007 02:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Red Skelton will be happy to hear that
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


5 posted 10-29-2007 03:14 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I dunno. The photo is real? It’s amusing to me. I mean, Obama looks like a lost giant who simply wandered up on stage in Forrest Gump fashion, while the others seem to be pledging something to an empty field. It almost looks like a practice session at a county fair before anyone showed up. Hill & Ruth look like Hobbits & the Gov. looks like he’s about to have a heart attack.

If a pledge is all indicative of having a heart, then someone had to help Hill find hers.

“No, a little to the left. No. Not your shoulder, lower, that’s right. Left boob area. Now grab it. Good. Do that every time and no one will know. Okay, honey?”

“Alright, Bill. I’ll try.”

quote:
76% of Americans in a recent poll identified themselves as Christians with a majority saying they recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.....that's for sure.


The only way I’d believe that to be “for sure” is if you told me the poll was incorporated into a kindergarten potty closet, where after everyone had their turn, they all got in a circle & sang the National Anthem complete with eagle puppets.

Sorry. I’m more worried about whether or not any of them are aware of the Constitution than spouting sing song politics or making gestures they may or may not be sincere about.

as you can see, it's easy to pick on someone for little things, but we need big changes, bigger than our hearts or even the churches we may belong to, and change is scary for most.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


6 posted 10-29-2007 03:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You are questioning whether the photo is real??? Were you on the O.J. jury?
Didn't you read the Scopes verification?

I’m more worried about whether or not any of them are aware of the Constitution than spouting sing song politics or making gestures they may or may not be sincere about.

Interesting. So you feel not being sincere about pleading allegiance to the country and it's constitution is ok for a presidential candidate? Doesn't sound like a lot of awareness of the  constitution to me.
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


7 posted 10-29-2007 04:08 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir, if you hate organized religion, you must hate formularizied patriotic gesture. Do you call French fry freedom fry?

Those..pin, hand to heart means nothing. The ones flought into Twins could do better.

Obama...too young


Does this make  you  like Hillary more?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


8 posted 10-29-2007 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

???
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


9 posted 10-29-2007 04:34 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


10 posted 10-29-2007 05:44 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

By the way, it appears Obama's campaign has much more to worry about than this:

*

The Caucus: New York Times: October 29th, 2007

*

*

Worst........Obama campaign week............Ever!

As much as I'd like to think Bill Richardson or another candidate will rise up now following this Obama campaign implosion, sadly, it's appearing more likely that Hillary is more closer to inevitable status than ever to win the Democratic nomination.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


11 posted 10-29-2007 06:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?


I think the answer depends on whether you can cite a case where someone placed their hand on their heart, recited the pledge but whose subsequent actions turned out to be contrary to the symbol and pledge.

If such a case exists the symbol isn’t synonymous or indicative of anything apart from perhaps following the crowd or paying lip service to your integrity and patriotism by a simple hand gesture and recitation. That seems to be what Obama was saying with regard to the pins, wearing them is fine as a gesture but actions should be the measure by which people are judged.

“Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings”

Robert Zimmerman

"There will be no whitewash at the Whitehouse."

President Richard Nixon

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


12 posted 10-29-2007 07:52 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Senator Barack Obama was flavor of the moment
which he pretty much said himself.


.
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


13 posted 10-29-2007 10:02 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
So you feel not being sincere about pleading allegiance to the country and it's constitution is ok for a presidential candidate? Doesn't sound like a lot of awareness of the  constitution to me.


Grinch pretty much nailed it, but most are not aware of the Pledge.

"Bellamy [the author of The Pledge of Allegiance] said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue."

and that the PoA is not in reference to the Constitution, but to the Flag in celebration of Columbus Day.

In fact, the words "equality and fraternity" were left out since women and blacks still didn't receive equal rights when it was written, so it couldn't have had much to do at all with the constitution and had more to do with national solidarity.

The words, "Under God," were added several years later.

it's all on wiki.

It's a nice ritual, but there were some true patriots well before 1892 that didn't need to recite anything to be patriotic.

Hey, I'm sentimental about it. I believe in the words. I cry when I hear Taps playing during a soldier's burial ceremony, and I know that flag will go to the spouse or loved one. I have one. But it didn't make them a patriot.

that's all I can say.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


14 posted 10-29-2007 10:57 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Every citizen, of course, has the right to pledge or refuse to pledge. It does seem, however, that something a little special should be expected of one who seeks to office of President. Maybe allegiance to the constitution, the flag, the country, the whole damn bundle.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


15 posted 10-30-2007 01:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Grinch, I don't think Obama is saying that at all. What he seems to be doing is playing CYA.

Of course there are those who would cite the pledge and then do something unpatriotic, just as there are millions who go to church and then go out and sin. That doesn't belittle either the traditions or the church.

i believe that if someone like Obama wants recognition of being patriotic and a believer of this country it would be to his advantage to act like it by participating in the same rituals that have been practiced for generations and have come to have importance in our minds.

Perhaps we should throw out the Scout Oath or the swearing in of the president, since all of those things are just words. If a man can't pledge allegiance publicly to the country he wants to lead, there's a problem somewhere.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


16 posted 10-30-2007 10:50 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Grinch, I don't think Obama is saying that at all. What he seems to be doing is playing CYA.


That just doesn’t make sense Michael, if he was intent on covering anything surely he’d just simply play along and go with the flow, what he’s doing is making a conscious choice not to cover his rear. He’s stating pretty categorically that actions speak louder than words.

“I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism.”

quote:
i believe that if someone like Obama wants recognition of being patriotic and a believer of this country it would be to his advantage to act like it by participating in the same rituals that have been practiced for generations and have come to have importance in our minds.


The key word here Michael is act, in this context it has a similar meaning as pretend, dupe and lie all of which aren’t very good traits for a commander-in-chief.

I think Obama has shown one trait that is needed – honesty – you may not like what he’s saying but he should at least get credit for saying it.

quote:
If a man can't pledge allegiance publicly to the country he wants to lead, there's a problem somewhere.


But not half as big as the problems you get when someone pledges his allegiance then acts against the best interests of his country. The pledge doesn’t guarantee a good president; a good president is defined by his actions.  

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


17 posted 10-30-2007 12:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

grinch, I understand where you are coming from and it's true that actions speak louder than words or gestures. As the Spanish saying goes, "what you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying". I really don't think that covers this area, though.

Our lives are filled with rituals and traditions. No, we don't have to recite pledges. Nor do we have to say Happy Anniversary, honey. We can just say "Judge me by my actions". (try that one!)  We don't have to stand before the flag or show respect when we don't feel like it.....but what would life be without them? Presidents don't have to be sworn in to pledge their best for the country nor do they have to put their hand on the Bible (just judge me by my actions). No oaths have to be taken by anyone from scouts to rotary clubs to any organizations....but we do those things? Why? Tradition and a form of respect.

Obama IS being judges by his actions. His action was not to pay respect to the flag by placing his hand over his heart, as all of the other candidates and assuredly the large percentage of the crowd gathered there did. Sure, he can be a rebel if he wants but who wants Marlon Brando as president? This is a man who claims to have the intelligence need to run the country and yet is not smart enough to recognize his non-action as an action taken as a lack of respect to the flag and those who believe the flag should be respected by the rituals we honor. Try taking obama out of that pic and substituting Bush. The democrats would be screaming and it would be front page material.

Does he have to do it? No. Is it a lack of respect to the flag? Probably not. Is it a lack of respect to those who believe the flag should be honored in the same tradition it has always been, especially by a man running for President? I would say yes.....and, I believe, so would many others.
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


18 posted 10-30-2007 12:24 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

My first thought was that the picture looked photo shopped.  And it does happen, all the time.  Very little is NOT photo shopped in some way now days.  

In other news, some religions feel that it is worshipping something other than the "god" by pledging to the flag and putting your hand over your heart to do so.

Does not doing so make one unpatriotic?  Love their country less?  

I don't worship the way most do, does that make me a heathen?

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


19 posted 10-30-2007 01:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

susan, putting yout hand over your heart does not "worship" the flag. It is simply a show of respect towards it and the country it represents. A lot of people have died defending it.

Singing along with "The Star-Spangled Banner" at a ball game is not worship, either. It's a tradition and, as a singing Jew once proclaimed, "Without our traditions we are nothing more than a fiddler on the roof."
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


20 posted 10-30-2007 06:53 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

As you may know I spent 10 yrs defending my country in the USN.  So, I contend there are other ways to show respect.

As I said, it is how some believe and who am I to judge their beliefs as long as they don't infringe upon someone else's?

I personally think there are far worse things to worry about in regards to the upcoming election.  



"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


21 posted 10-31-2007 03:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm curious, Susan. During your 10 years, whenever you were outside during reveille or taps, did you stand at attention and salute the  flag and, when you did so, did you feel you were being made to worship it or did you perhaps feels some pride in doing so?
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


22 posted 10-31-2007 11:02 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

As you well know, being in the military means you must do those things.  But that wasn't my point...

I tried to not make this a "me" thing in that I tried not to give my opinion on this other than I believe we should have the choice without judgment.  Apparently I didn't come across as I had hoped and you somehow got the impression that I was saying I do not pledge or put my hand on my heart. But what I do or don't do isn't the issue in my mind, nor the point, as I said.

"...does not "worship" the flag" this statement you made...seems to be written as if it were fact...can you give me your resources?

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


23 posted 10-31-2007 11:21 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Balladeer, I agree with you. A man running for president shall not present himself in such  foolishness. If he is not smart enough to realize that this sort of behave will cost his votes then he is not smart enough to take the position at all.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


24 posted 10-31-2007 11:33 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Susan, I did not infer anything about your personal actions or lack of at all.

My resources? Just logic and common sense. Can you show me anywhere that it states covering your heart or reciting the pledge is worship? Is taking marriage vows worship? (regardless of what your mate says?) Is the Boy Scout oath worship? Is taking the oath on the witness stand worship? There is a huge difference between worship and respect.

If you were in a room filled with Muslims and, at the appropriate time, they all bowed their heads and turned toward Mecca, would you stand there looking around and whistling "She'll be coming around the mountain"? Of course not. You would remain quiet in respect of their beliefs. Obama was in a public gathering where the others were all paying proper respect to the flag and he looks like he's looking for the hot dog vendor.

Again, if that were his strong belief I would go with him but, according to his people, sometimes he feels like doing it and sometimes he doesn't. What kind of policy is that? The man must be a politician!

Is it a biggie in the grand scheme of things? Of course not, but for me personally, it is not understandable and personally offensive. If a man on center stage running for president cannot show respect to the flag in the tradition we believe in, he's not a rebel - he's a fool...and I feel confident that there is a respectable number of vets out there who would agree with me.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Heartless Obama?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors