How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Heartless Obama?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Heartless Obama?

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


100 posted 11-11-2007 07:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Could be, Ron. I guess time will tell..
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


101 posted 11-11-2007 07:23 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Ron, your hidden teeth are quite sharp. Do yo mean that I am probably the 1% who really think that Obama's behveior is stupid while most American will take it as a trifle?

Do you hint that Obama is very smart guy and he knew that Most American would ignore this?

Now we need a pool.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


102 posted 11-11-2007 08:32 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Distractions, distractions.

I didn't even know there was an official flag code. (I guess it's one of those dumbing down things that Denise was talking about.) My parents taught to be respectful and never let the flag touch the ground -- so, yeah,it's a little disconcerting to see flag shorts or olympic athletes draping themselves in the flag.

Oh, and if I recall correctly, the only proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it. A touch of irony there.

But it's still all distraction.

Yes, I think the Flag code is a distraction. Far more interesting and important would be his view of the Federalist Papers, don't you think?

Anybody want to talk about those?

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


103 posted 11-11-2007 08:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sure, Brad....start a thread.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


104 posted 11-11-2007 08:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Obama also has nothing to do with waterboarding, nor does  Obama have anything to do with Katrina....but you would never know it with some of these replies.

Apparently responding to the subject of this thread is not possible so fingers have to point elsewhere to get some kind  of acrobatic justification....



Not justification -- but one does have to pretzelize one's brain to accomodate the tortured logic that the topic of this thread is somehow substantive.

quote:

When I am this party’s nominee, my opponent will not be able to say that I voted for the war in Iraq ... And he will not be able to say that I waivered on something as fundamental as whether it is okay for America to torture because it is never okay. That's why I’m in it!

... I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century ... and I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says you matter to us, your future is our future, and our moment is now. America, our moment is now.

Our moment is now!

I don't want to spend the next year or the next four years refighting the same fights that we had in the 1990s. I don’t want to pit red America against blue America. I want to be the President of the United States of America.

And if those Republicans come at me with the same fear-mongering and swift-boating that they usually do, then I will take them head-on. Because I believe the American people are tired of fear, and tired of distractions…we can make this election not about fear, but about the future, and that will not be just a Democratic victory, that will be an American victory, a victory that America needs right now!

I am not in this race to fulfill some longheld ambitions or because I believe it's somehow owed to me. I never expected to be here. I always knew this journey was improbable. I am running in this race because of of what Dr. King called "the fierce urgency of now." Because I believe that there’s such a thing as being too late, and that hour is almost upon us

Barack Obama -- as quoted: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/



You want to say that Barack isn't patriotic when we have real issues that define our generation in history in front of us?  C'mon Mike.  You're the one pointing the finger away from the issues here.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


105 posted 11-11-2007 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not going to work, reb.

Here's what I said to introduce the thread..

So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?

Obama doesn't think so...what say you?


I did not question Obama's patriotism. I questioned the stupidity of his actions in this instance and his disrespect to the flag and our traditions.

You can continue trying to branch off or you can even try to twist it around and claim I am but the thread was about Obama's conduct on that stage...not torture,not gitmo, not hurricanes, not whether Obama is patriotic or not, etc, etc, etc.

Continue with links about waterboarding or about Obama's philosophy if you likebut the question remains...were his actions dumb or not?
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


106 posted 11-11-2007 09:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT O NLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????



Let's not forget the short-hand in your opening salvo Mike.  You aren't as interested in our opinion as you are in telling us that you think Barack Hussein Obama isn't American enough to be President.

After all, he has a funny sounding name and didn't put his hand over his heart.  

Shame on you Mike.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


107 posted 11-11-2007 10:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Aha...I see the confusion. My apologies, reb. The comment you just quoted was not my words. They came from the internet and I failed to give the link....I don't even remember where it came from. From it, I went to Scopes to verify it and pasted both of them together to introduce the thread. The sentence at the finale was the only portion that were my personal words.

If, after all these years, you think that I would be prejudiced toward a man because his middle name is hussein, I reckon we don't know each other very well at all.  

You aren't as interested in our opinion as you are in telling us that you think Barack  Hussein  Obama isn't American enough to be President.

Actually, I was interested in seeing if anyone WOULD give an honest opinion with regards to Obama's actions. It turned out about the way I expected. People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it. Noah was the only bright spotwith his reply.

Not American enough to be President? Where do you come up with that one?
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


108 posted 11-11-2007 10:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

At a different point in time Mike I would probably have been able to detangle the multiple authorships but in my present condition I'm just not able to contextualize those subtleties and it's a real challenge to even put my own thoughts into a logical form, so, unfortunatly -- it's not only you that I don't know -- but my own mind.  So, apology accepted and my own offered.

quote:

Not American enough to be President? Where do you come up with that one?  



I come up with that one directly from the unknown author's words that I mistakenly attributed to you.

quote:

People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it.



What I don't think that you're getting is that we're directly addressing the issue Mike.  That the substance of ceremony is what the symbols represent.  It matters what 'America' the Flag represents -- without a government that is willing to uphold the ideals embodied in the Constitution -- it's just a peice of cloth -- and we find it odd that those who are so concerned about the ceremony aren't as concerned about the ideals.

  

TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


109 posted 11-11-2007 11:11 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Balladeer,

---People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it---

You can't be so serious. You are dividing  pipsters into opposite groups.

The code required three things,,standing, facing the flag and hand over heart. Obama did 66.6666666% right so why do you say that he is wrong?

People who do not like him, of course will make a big deal of it...and it makes a very good topic over the tea, too.

I love this thread.
hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


110 posted 11-11-2007 11:16 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Maybe I'm not traditional or respectful enough, but to me, rigidly following a "flag code" and expecting others to show the proper respect to a piece of cloth strikes me as a sort of patriotic idolatry. Yes, I understand that the flag symbolizes out country in a material way, but maybe it's just the secular way I was raised... ritualistic gestures seem not only empty, but homogenized and a pervasive, subversive way of expecting a certain amount of conformity... something I just don't value. I don't knock people for praying, whether it be to god or to uncle sam (and that is precisely what this whole hand-over-heart thing amounts to).. I just ask that people don't knockme for not praying.

Maybe it seems like I'm changing the subject... but why would I say someting negative about what I see as a non-issue? I have absolutely no opinion on where someone's hand goes during the pledge, or the national anthem, or whatever. I do however take issue and offense to the ridiculous attack on someone for not observing a silly, and, I'm sorry, essentially meaningless ritual. In fact, I have pretty much no strong feelings about the national anthem and slightly cool feelings toward the pledge... so I could care less if he respects those conventions anyway. I geuss, though, that it's wrong for someone to feel that way. I guess someone who wants to make a difference in our country, or to lead it, has to recite words learned by rote memorization with a smile on his face and a hand over his heart...

And in terms of where was my defense of Bush... most of the thing's he's criticised for, as I pointed out earlier, and pertinent. If someone criticises the war in Iraq, who, in honesty and good conscience and say it's silly, or a non-issue. People are dying. And though I may have my personal feelings on it, I have always maintained in conversations that Bush's prior alcohol issues, and the controversy a couple years ago with his daughter being busted for underage drinking... are his business... and in no way pertinent to his job.

Just as, by the way, Clinton's decision to stay with her husband despite his infidelity. Has absolutely nothing to do with her job and people who knock her for that reason should be ashamed of themselves.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


111 posted 11-11-2007 11:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

In fact, I have pretty much no strong feelings about the national anthem and slightly cool feelings toward the pledge... so I could care less if he respects those conventions anyway.

Thanks for your clarification, hush. It's easier to understand why you would consider this thread silly then.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


112 posted 11-12-2007 12:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That the substance of ceremony is what the symbols represent.  It matters what 'America' the Flag represents --

The thread is not about the substance of ceremony, reb, nor is it  about what the symbols represent. It is about a time-worn tradition that we  have,one in which people running for President especially should honor, one in which every candidate there DID honor,with the exception of one. And why? To make some kind of point? No, that was the first reason given but quickly changed when he saw the number of hits on YouTube.

Silly? Sure...and senseless, showing bad judgement...not exactly great credentials for one pandering for votes to be President, I'd say.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


113 posted 11-12-2007 01:26 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You can't give the substance of ceremony a backhand in one sentence Mike and then talk about reciting the pledge as 'time-honored' in the next sentence.

Why is it honored?

Why should we do it?

Why should a Presidential candidate 'especially' do it?

This is the problem that Theoconservatism has for me -- it wraps itself in the flag without embracing the Constitution.  It loves freedom but despises dissent.  It wants to forcibly spread democracy around the globe.  

It pledges allegiance to the Flag -- but not the Republic it represents -- instead -- it is loyal to an imperialist oligarchy that, for the past 6 years, has done everything imaginable to rise above the law.

What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion.

The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.  Our geography is just another spot on the sphere, our biology is the same.  Without the ideology of the Constitution -- America is just another nation-state trying to win.  Trying to gain advantage -- and is indistinguishible from any other society in history.
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


114 posted 11-12-2007 04:21 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

"What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion."

LR, wonderful. right to the point.

And Dear sir Balladeer, you may say whatever you want but WE WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT MORE SIGNIFICANT THING THAN HAND OVER HEART, LIKE WAR ETC.   if you really want to talk about political figurine. Do you want this thread to be tabloid-ed?  

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-12-2007 07:06 AM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


115 posted 11-12-2007 04:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why is it honored?
Why should we do it?


It doesn't matter, LR, at least as far as this thread is concerned. The fact is that it IS honored and we DO do it.

Obama's failure to do it was not a protest movement. He was not trying to prove some kind of point. My bottom dollar says if he had a chance to go back, he WOULD do it.

Yes, America is just another nation-state trying to win but it is OUR nation-state. Perhaps we should just state that there is nothing special about us, that we are just a super-power in a long line of super-powers and our ideals and traditions carry little importance. Perhaps we should just look at our families and think that they are just families like millions of other families and there's nothing important about them, either....but we don't. Should we, or any other nation or civilization reach that point of apathy toward the ideals our nations represent, it will be a very sad day.

As far as your definition of theoconservatism, you are entitled to your views. Mine are exactly the opposite. Democrats have shown me nothing except that they are out for individual gain and power, even if the country suffers because of it. But that's all fodder for another thread...it HAS been fodder for other threads

Obama screwed up. If that's too hard to acknowlege, then so be it.
TomMark
Member Elite
since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


116 posted 11-12-2007 05:07 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Have a good evening, dear sir Balladeer.

I wonder why everyone here try to "misunderstand" you which made this thread  very interesting to read.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


117 posted 11-12-2007 05:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Story of my life, Tom...a misunderstood balladeer
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


118 posted 11-12-2007 07:59 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I believe both Local Rebel and Balladeer are correct on their points over what many theoconservatives and Democratic activists do.

Regarding the former, I believe many neoconservatives in particular have exploited 9/11 time and time again as an excuse why we should be willing to give up or suspend some of our civil liberties in the purpose of fighting terrorism.

Take the USA Patriot Act, for instance. It is over 340 pages in length, and both Senators Russ Feingold and Patrick Leahy had commented they had amendments to offer for the final revision before it was first passed, yet it was rushed through both the House and Senate virtually overnight without offering Congress even time to READ that very legislation.

And what drove that through the full Senate with virtually NO debate. Pseudo-patriotism. During that time, and even for months and months well beyond then to this very day, these neoconservatives and GOP leadership members keep playing the trump card of fear, arguing that all their political opponents are soft on terrorism and such if they dare question anything from warrantless wiretapping to extraordinary rendition to suspending habeas corpus, etc.

The bottom line is, terrorism has always existed in one form or another, and our nation's history has been interpsersed with "desperate moments" and despite that happening in certain scenarios, we chose not to confront the obstacles through fear but rather through standing resolute, yet patient and cool as well on many occasions.

I've felt and still feel that the USA Patriot Act compromises our eagle-eye focus on the enemy, when you have such provisions like Section 215 allowing investigators to scrutinize library records unknowingly, or temporarily even allowing unwarranted break-ins that got individuals like Brandon Mayfield caught up in spirals of wrongful accusation, distracting us from the enemy in the whole process because of its overreach and the violation of freedom of association.

So, yes, I absolutely believe there are individuals in the GOP leadership and right-wing thinktanks who continue to use fear as fuel in driving their political templates and agendas, and while they wrap themselves in the flag tirelessly and ostensibly, they're all the same disgracing the Constitution and mocking dissent.

*

*

Michael is also right that there are Democratic activists who also exploit many situations to fulfill their own ends and means.

He pointed out the National Guard memos, for instance, prior to the 2004 presidential election. I myself condemned that being raised as a distraction during that campaign, regardless of how angry I was with the president otherwise, as I believed that was absolutely unnecessary and irrelevant to the other issues at stake then, equally as much as what the so-called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" did on John Kerry.

The same can also be said, I believe, with how pundits continue to mock the president for his malapropisms and accuse him of being an idiot and such. In terms of socialization, I too am inarticulate and my words don't come out phrased correctly sometimes, and I believe the president himself isn't stupid at all: he's just inarticulate and can't help that. That's just how he speaks.

Of course I disagree with Michael on some other things he has argued screams 100% opportunism, but he's certainly right on many points as well, and the Democratic Party leadership is no less immune to such exploitative tactics as the GOP leadership or activists from either party are.

*

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


119 posted 11-13-2007 04:25 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

It doesn't matter, LR, at least as far as this thread is concerned. The fact is that it IS honored and we DO do it.

Obama's failure to do it was not a protest movement. He was not trying to prove some kind of point. My bottom dollar says if he had a chance to go back, he WOULD do it.



First you say that offensive language that you didn't write doesn't have anything to do with the thread -- but, for some reason you felt compelled to pass them on to us -- not for discussion -- just to pass them on...

Then you quoted from the article;

quote:

Such an act would be consistent with Senator Obama's response when he was asked in October 2007 interviews about his not wearing a U.S. flag pin in his lapel, a gesture which he said he had abandoned in favor of actions he considered more meaningfully patriotic:
The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin. Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism

Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.



But.  That isn't germane to the thread either.  So why did you post it at all?  You could have merely asked your final question and posted the picture.

The genie is out of the bottle Mike -- when the game doesn't go your way you can't pick up the marbles and just go home

quote:

Yes, America is just another nation-state trying to win but it is OUR nation-state. Perhaps we should just state that there is nothing special about us, that we are just a super-power in a long line of super-powers and our ideals and traditions carry little importance. Perhaps we should just look at our families and think that they are just families like millions of other families and there's nothing important about them, either....but we don't. Should we, or any other nation or civilization reach that point of apathy toward the ideals our nations represent, it will be a very sad day.



There is probably a clause in the Geneva Convention against torturing logic that way Mike.  You can't start the paragraph with Jingoism in one hand and then end it with the 'ideals' our nation represents (which is what the Flag, the Pledge, and saluting over the heart are all about anyway) in the other.

It's either our nation right or wrong -- or -- it's our ideals regardless of nationality.

But, I don't think you actually got what I wrote:

quote:

What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion.

The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.  Our geography is just another spot on the sphere, our biology is the same.  Without the ideology of the Constitution -- America is just another nation-state trying to win.  Trying to gain advantage -- and is indistinguishible from any other society in history.  



I feel like Chris Matthews being challenged to a duel here -- you're just not listening to anything that's being said Senator -- so why waste my time?

hush
Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


120 posted 11-15-2007 12:39 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Mike- does somebody have to have strong feelings about rituals such as the Pledge and the National Anthem in order to have strong feelings about their country?

LR asks why are these symbols important, and why do we honor them... which you disregard. What's the point of honoring something if the reason to do so is irrelevant? It seems to me that the answer is to pay lip service.

I don't really care that the Ohio state bird is the Cardinal or that the state tree is the Buckeye... but it's still my state and I'll always love it regardless... Similarly, while the national anthem doesn't really stir strong emotions in me and I don't really believe that our nation is "under god," it is still my country, and I love that it allows me the freedom to say what I'm saying right now... does that make me (or Obama, who may or may not have had some similar reason for his action) any less patriotic?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


121 posted 11-15-2007 02:21 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"does that make me"

Run for President, (and as such
commander of the armed forces),
and we'll find out.

...........

How gladly with proper words
the soldier dies if he must
or lives on the bread of faithful speech.

Wallace Stevens
.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


122 posted 11-15-2007 05:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

when the game doesn't go your way you can't pick up the marbles and just go home.

Why, thank you, LR, but as you can see happily, I'm still around. Can't pick up the marbles, though, since I lost them years ago. Thanks for the kind words.

    Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
    Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.


That is not germain to the thread? Really? First it shows that Obama's crew tried to rationalize it with a sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't reply and then afterwards, when someone told Obama how many hits it was getting online, he came out with a "No,it wasn't the creed - it was the anthem" reply, negating what his staff had tried to justify it with......just more flip-flopping, that's all.

But, I don't think you actually got what I wrote: The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.

Sure, I got that, LR, and responded accordingly. The thread is not about these things having meaning. This is not about a man challenging the meaning of anything, by his own admission. The thread is not about "Our oath, our anthem, our traditions - do they have meaning?" The thread is about one man not respecting those meaningful or meaningless traditions that everyone else there respected in our traditional way. That's all. period. Se acabo. Going into meanings is as immaterial as bringing up torture.

I feel like Chris Matthews being challenged to a duel here -  Now that's interesting...Chris Matthews, the bullet-firing inquisitor who doesn't even wait for an answer before going off with another question or, when given a response he doesn't like, makes sure to speak louder than the other person and drown him out so no one will notice he has moved on to another topic. You think I don't answer you? When I ask you a simple question, I get a dozen links fired at me with a "the answer is there - find it" type of response


Mike- does somebody have to have strong feelings about rituals such as the Pledge and the National Anthem in order to have strong feelings about their country?

Absolutely not, hush, and I would never question your, or anyone else's feelings toward the country based on such a response. We are not talking about that here, however. As I showed earlier, Obama did not fail to act because he was making a statement or even had lukewarm feelings toward the tradition.....he just thought it was the anthem, basically a silly response since the same tradition holds true for both.

One does not have to have strong feelings toward a tradition to honor it. One can simply do it by respecting the beliefs of others. If you went to a friend's house for dinner who happened to be catholic, when the time came to bow one's head for a moment of silence before the meal, would you do it or would you just look around the room, or maybe ask where the potatoes were? I think you would respect their tradition. Would that mean you were then religious and believed in God? No, it would mean you were being considerate enough to honor your friend. Obama was on stage, in front of many people and other political candidates, a man running for President, and he chose not to show this same respect. How smart can a man be to do that? Does his election crew have any hair left or have they pulled it all out?


LR asks why are these symbols important, and why do we honor them... which you disregard.

Disregarded for the same reason I just explained. The importance of the symbols doesn't matter in the slightest here. The disregard for those who DO respect the importance does, especially when those people number a vast majority of American.

If I reach out my hand to shake yours in friendship, it's not necessary to know that the tradition began as a way to show that there were no weapons concealed in the hand and was therefore a sign of friendship. It's enough to know that we regard it as a symbol of friendship. That doesn't mean you have to participate. Perhaps you don't like touching other people's hands (who knows where they might have been! ) or maybe you just don't like the tradition. That's fine. Howard Hughes never shook anyone's hand, either. But he was consistent. It wasn't a "sometimes I do and sometimes I don't" scenario.

This thread, hush, was simply about was it right (or smart) for Obama to not respect or honor our traditions while on the public stage, asking for votes to be President?  Nothing to do with what the symbols represent, what our country represents, how waterboarding works, how bad katrina was....etc, etc, etc. and I apologize if either you or LR are irritated because I won't go down those roads but that's the ways it is.

I shall now resume the never-ending search for those darn marbles.....
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


123 posted 11-15-2007 08:35 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant



If you went to a friend's house for dinner who happened to be catholic, when the time came to bow one's head for a moment of silence before the meal, would you do it or would you just look around the room, or maybe ask where the potatoes were? I think you would respect their tradition.


Good point Balladeer.  

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


124 posted 11-15-2007 09:21 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

And if they got down on the floor to face Mecca? Would you join them on their rugs?

There's a fine line between showing respect and being a hypocrite, I think. Which has nothing at all to do with this thread and, I hope, shows that the analogy also has nothing to do with this thread. We're not talking about beliefs, after all, which Mike has made very clear by refusing to consider meanings. We're talking about traditions and "fitting in" with everyone else.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Heartless Obama?   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors