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Heartless Obama?

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Ron
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25 posted 10-31-2007 12:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
..and I feel confident that there is a respectable number of vets out there who would agree with me.

Sigh. You just had to bring the vets into this, didn't you? Ok, then, count me as one vet who doesn't agree, Mike.

Your implication is that Obama displayed disrespect when, in fact, he simply showed his respect in a manner different than you would. Welcome to America, where cultural differences are accepted, not vilified.

FWIW, I don't put my hand over my heart, either. As best I can recall, that wasn't what I was taught to do way back in elementary school. Regional differences? I don't know. I do know, however, that standing at alert attention is not intended to be disrespectful.

Oh, and when I tell my children that I love them? I don't put my hand over my heart for that either.  


Balladeer
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26 posted 10-31-2007 12:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, Ron I simply said there are many...not all. Your not feeling that way or Susan not feeling that way is no negative reflection on either of you....or anyone else who agrees with you. I will stand by my statement, though, that there are many who will feel differently.

Interesting elementary schools you have there. We actually WERE taught to place our hands over our hearts in elementary school...but what can one expect from Missouri?

Obama's action is a cultural difference? Do tell...

You don't place your hand over your heart when telling your children you love them? Of course not...every parent knows you place your hand over your wallet!

It's interesting to see the lengths you all go to with your examples to justify this "inaction". Not showing respect for the flag in the traditional way by a presidential candidate somehow corresponds to telling your children you love them and "worshipping" the flag. Justification can certainly take many roads, can't it?

All I can say is that, if I were in that audience, standing there with my hand over my heart reciting the pledge along with the crowd and the presidential candidates and I looked up and saw Obama looking like he was waiting for the crosstown bus, I would have been looking for tomatoes....and my aim ain't bad.
Susan Caldwell
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27 posted 10-31-2007 01:02 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Wouldn’t you agree that your logic and common sense may be different from another’s logic and common sense?  That situation and perspective may have something to do with the logic and/or common sense we believe?

It seems to me that you may honestly believe that what you believe is what all should believe.  I know that can’t be right, so what are you saying?  I honestly don’t understand.  

I said:

“some religions feel that it is worshipping something other than the "god" by pledging to the flag and putting your hand over your heart to do so.”

I don’t think I even slightly implied what I said was fact, therefore, no resources.

You said:

“susan, putting yout hand over your heart does not "worship" the flag.”

In my opinion, that statement kind of sounds like a fact rather than an opinion, this is why I asked for a resource.  

Maybe I am incapable of communicating my point.  Maybe I have failed at simply making my opinion clear.  

I do know, this vet feels that everyone should have the right to believe and practice
as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe upon someone elses rights.  That's what I thought we fought for when we came to this country.  

But maybe I am just an uneducated little girl with no real need for an opinion?  
  


"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~
Susan Caldwell
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28 posted 10-31-2007 01:15 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"It's interesting to see the lengths you all go to with your examples to justify this "inaction". Not showing respect for the flag in the traditional way by a presidential candidate somehow corresponds to telling your children you love them and "worshipping" the flag. Justification can certainly take many roads, can't it?"

No, I was just offering a different perspective on the matter.  It's that it's different than yours that seems to be what bothers you.

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

rwood
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29 posted 10-31-2007 01:43 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
I do know, this vet feels that everyone should have the right to believe and practice
as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe upon someone elses rights.  That's what I thought we fought for when we came to this country.


I salute you and your point.
  
Balladeer
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30 posted 10-31-2007 02:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

ok, then. His right is to practice the tradition when he feels like it and not when he doesn't. Is that it? I can understand a person who sets his beliefs or standards in a specific way, but to say "I do it when I want and not when I don't feel like it." Is that ok? It's ok for you and me, I suppose. Yes, in America, we can act anyway we want. We can strive to be successful or we can be content being street bums if we so choose. We can stand for certain ideals or we can decide when we want to stand for those ideals and when we want to do the opposite. That is indeed what America is all about. Is that the president we want, though?

Obama is saying basically, "I will respect the flag in the traditional way when I want to and if I don't feel like it at other times, I won't". That's the fellow to believe in? Ok, you can have him....
TomMark
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31 posted 10-31-2007 02:20 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Is he respectful to the flag or to the national integrity?

I would not judge him as disrespectful if he was in a crowd  But on a public platform, I say, no,  He did not perform a respect gesture....an unqualified actor.
Susan Caldwell
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32 posted 10-31-2007 03:17 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

The president I want?!?!?

That's a choice???

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

hush
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33 posted 10-31-2007 03:22 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

This is stupid.

I think Bill Richardson is being disrespectful because he's facing the camera, instead of facing to the left like the other three.
Balladeer
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34 posted 10-31-2007 03:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, Susan!! The "you" is figurative...no need to take things so personally.
Balladeer
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35 posted 10-31-2007 03:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

True, hush...and Hillary is being disrespectful     because she is pretending to have a heart...
rwood
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36 posted 10-31-2007 03:38 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Laughing.

Doh, sorry, don't mean to be disrespectful. Must control my funny bone.
Krawdad
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37 posted 10-31-2007 05:56 PM       View Profile for Krawdad   Email Krawdad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Krawdad

Michael,

While I would prefer not to extend one of your "poke-'em-in-the-ribs-just-to-see-how-they-yelp" threads, I thought you might be interested in the socialist connection to the origin of the "Pledge".  

And, Noah?

Check your facts, man, "under God" was added in 1954 after the K of C lobbied Congress.  I know, I was there in grade school under the watchful eyes and ears of a nun.

Here's a link:

The Pledge . . . a Short History
Ron
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38 posted 10-31-2007 06:07 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I can understand a person who sets his beliefs or standards in a specific way, but to say "I do it when I want and not when I don't feel like it." Is that ok?

Of course it's okay, Mike. You don't believe Bush lies to us ALL the time, do you?
Balladeer
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39 posted 10-31-2007 06:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I see. Then Bush should be the standard by which candidates are judged? He would like that!!
TomMark
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40 posted 11-01-2007 02:46 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Sir Balladeer
"Hillary is being disrespectful     because she is pretending to have a heart..."

hands up or not, you have sayings on either way because you do not like them....those "Democrates" ( your definition)

I don't think that you have been fair.

you are very right on Bush being the standard. Actually he shall be the cutting point. Anybody who wants to be on the ticket should be smarter than him.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-01-2007 03:41 AM).]

Balladeer
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41 posted 11-01-2007 12:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hillary has nothing to do with "those Democrats", Tom. She is in a class all by herself.
TomMark
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42 posted 11-01-2007 08:00 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

My dear sir Balladeer

"Noah, I agree completely. One sometimes forgets how another will interpret one's words. When I say "the Democrats", I mean the leaders of the Democratic party. My references are to the people I name - Pelosi, Boxer, Gore, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, Hillary, Murtha and the rest of that motley crew. I assume that readers know that."  

See how I got you!!!!

Do you really assume that readers know that?

why don't you like Hillary?
Balladeer
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43 posted 11-02-2007 01:46 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tom, if she gets the nomination and is then called on over all the things in her sleazy past, you will understand why I - and many others - do not like her. She is a snake...
TomMark
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44 posted 11-02-2007 04:28 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Balladeer,

My old neighbour, my dearest friend and a diehard republican, said that Hillary had murdered people. Her husband said the same thing. I really had  hard time to believe them. They truly hate her. I can not understand why ( they are from Taxes not Arkanses). They want me to read something on some sites...I do not believe most site stories so  i did not bother myself.

A working woman, ambitious lawyer, a mother, a wife cheated by her femouse husband, wants to take charge of US. I see nothing wrong with it. I see nothing wrong that woman wants to be a leader.  And even she took extra things from White House as "souvenir"s after they finished their session made her even more human.

I do not like her healthcare policy but I can not believe that she is an evil person, unless I see some solid facts.

Huan Yi
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45 posted 11-02-2007 05:45 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“.  .Hillary’s problem goes beyond discomfort with dynastic succession. It’s deep unease about a shared presidency. Forget about Bill, the bad boy. The problem is William Jefferson Clinton, former president of the United States, commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces, George Washington’s representative on earth.

We have never had an ex-president move back into the White House. When in 1992 Bill Clinton promised “two for the price of one,” it was taken as a slightly hyperbolic promotion of the role of first lady. This time we would literally be getting two presidents.

Any ex-president is a presence in his own right. His stature, unlike, say, Hillary’s during Bill’s presidency, is independent of his spouse. From day one of Hillary’s inauguration, Bill will have had more experience than her at everything she touches. His influence on her presidency would necessarily be immeasurably greater than that of any father on any son.

Americans did not like the idea of a co-presidency when, at the 1980 Republican convention, Ronald Reagan briefly considered sharing the office with former President Gerald Ford. (Ford would have been vice president with independent powers.) And they won’t like this co-presidency, particularly because the Clinton partnership involves two characters caught in the dynamic of a strained, strange marriage.

The cloud hovering over a Hillary presidency is not Bill padding around the White House in robe and slippers flipping thongs. It’s President Clinton, in suit and tie, simply present in the White House when any decision is made. The degree of his involvement in that decision will inevitably become an issue. Do Americans really want a historically unique two-headed presidency constantly buffeted by the dynamics of a highly dysfunctional marriage?”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTVjZDgwMmU3ZmJjZDU4NmQwN2EzMjRlM2VmNzllNGI=&w=MQ==

.
TomMark
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46 posted 11-02-2007 06:36 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

oh, dear John, nothing is concrete here.

is there an old saying that "two heads are better than one?"  

Now, why Clinton is bad? his time was not that bad, right? Clinton, at least  is much better than Dick Cheney.

And is Nationalreview a kind of tabloid thing?

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-02-2007 10:33 PM).]

Local Rebel
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47 posted 11-02-2007 10:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Do Americans really want a historically unique two-headed presidency constantly buffeted by the dynamics of a highly dysfunctional marriage?”



Oh My   This does sound eerily famiar -- like -- Bush-Cheny.  But, we know there was only really one President there.  Eh?
Mistletoe Angel
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48 posted 11-02-2007 11:31 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Tom, I'm certainly no fan of Dick Cheney either at all, and I ALSO don't want Hillary Clinton elected, as her history of political calculation and corruption reveals a candidate who I believe is too closely tied to Washington and is opportunistic.

She has failed to explain a plan to sell taxpayer-financed trade missions in exchange for campaign contributions to the Clinton-Gore 1996 re-election campaign (which Nolanda Hill, partner and confidante of the late Clinton Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, said under sworn testimony that Hillary Clinton was the brains behind the effort)

She has failed to explain how she failed to report more than $2 million in contributions to her Senate 2000 campaign in New York, which testimony from the criminal investigation and trial of her National Finance Director, David Rosen, found she did indeed know the figures and never reported them.

She has failed to explain the mysterious vanishing act of her Whitewater billing records from the office of Vince Foster, the former Rose Law Firm partner and Clinton White House counsel who is said to have committed suicide in 1993......and how they magically came back in the White House with her very fingerprints on them.

She has failed to explain some records from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange that cite a $1,000 investment in cattle futures in 1978 turning into more than $100,000 in the span of ten months, and how she ever received a sky-high return to begin with.

She has failed to explain how her brothers Anthony and Hugh brokered huge cash deals for the purpose of collecting presidential pardons from her husband on behalf of convicted criminals, or if she herself had anything to do with the last 140 pardons her husband offered during the end of his second term.

She has failed to explain Craig Livingstone, Yucalpa, the abrupt firing of seven longtime employees in the White House Travel office which Independent Counsel Robert Ray said she played a central role in, John Huang and the Lippo Group among other potential scandals that wouldn't fit on a laundry list.

But beyond that, almost everything Clinton does politically strikes me as disingenuous and calculated. Is it merely coincidence that she has gotten increasingly anti-war as the disapproval ratings continue to rise, evolving especially after her party's victories in last November's elections?

There was a cartoon I actually saw in the newspaper early this year that epitomizes exactly how she welds with the issues; featuring an anti-war parade moving up the boulevard, and Hillary is hiding there on the street corner, shown half-hidden, asking her campaign advisor if she should march out there to the front of the parade and lead it or not.

That's how Clinton generally behaves on the breadth of issues. She's dishonest and doesn't strike me as really standing for anything. Come to think of it, she hasn't even said WHY she's running for the White House to begin with. I know Edwards is running on the platform of "two Americas", Dodd on restoring the Constitution, and Gravel on God knows what, LOL, but Hillary has yet to answer even that simple question really.

Being unyielding and so stubborn your boots are literally bolted to the ground, as our current president is like, is one major problem as it just shows one is unable to compromise or listen to others beyond his inner-circle, but being entirely calculating all the time is equally as problematic, and Clinton represents that other polarity.

*

But finally, there's something about her personality on the trail that is also so artificial. Take her "cackling" a notable bit more than usual, for instance. Obviously there's a genuine way of taking the suggestions of others to heart, one popular one of which has been that Hillary appears too cold and aloof publically and needs to lighten up. But yet, when she has suddenly been not only cackling more often, but during awkward and serious moments both in debates and television interviews, there's something irritable about that.

Or you may also recall that peculiar moment in March of this year, when Hillary Clinton (along with Barack Obama) attended services at the First Baptist Church in Selma, Alabama, and exercised a lame attempt at a Southern accent when she spoke, even quoting from an old Gospel Hymn titled "I Don't Feel Noways Tired", saying: “Aww don’t feel noways tired. I’ve come too faarrr from where I started frum…Aww culd have listened all day luung."

*

So, you see, there is an opportunistic pattern here; a pattern where Hillary is desperately trying to soften what is generally perceived as her shrill image. I don't think many are buying into it as the attempt at a Southern accent especially just appeared completely forced and phony, but that's her strategy currently: trying to redefine herself completely and demonstrate she has a sense of humor like everyone else, she understands middle America just as well as the next American, etc.

*

It's for THOSE reasons in particular I simply cannot vote for Hillary Clinton, period.

What can I say, some people will simply do anything to get elected. Fred Thompson may try to make himself grow even taller to try and pick up votes too as far as I'm concerned.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
TomMark
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49 posted 11-03-2007 01:54 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Thank you very much Noah.

Hillary is not a stupid lady, of course. She will do anything to meet her goal. But is she an everage politician or the evil one? Is it that whatever she did is what all the politicians are doing today?

Vince Foster, i believe , was under Clintons' pressure but it does not mean that she killed him.

I have not much knowledge of her but I know many do not like her. My opinion on her is that it is not easy  at all for a lady to come to this far in political field in US.

Thank you again, Noah.
 
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