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Balladeer
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0 posted 2007-10-29 12:03 PM





Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem.
Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT O NLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????

According to Scopes....

The photograph itself is real, one of several images of the Iowa steak fry event published by Time, and shows Barack Obama standing with his hands clasped just below his waist, while New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, New York senator Hillary Clinton, and Ruth Harkin (wife of Iowa senator Tom Harkin) stand with their hands held over their hearts. It's difficult to judge exactly what's going on from a single still image (it's possible, for example, that the photograph captured an instant just before or just after the national anthem was played, and Senator Obama had not yet raised his right hand or had just lowered it), but accounts of the event indicate that the picture is as described.

Such an act would be consistent with Senator Obama's response when he was asked in October 2007 interviews about his not wearing a U.S. flag pin in his lapel, a gesture which he said he had abandoned in favor of actions he considered more meaningfully patriotic:
The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin. Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism

Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.


So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?

Obama doesn't think so...what say you?

© Copyright 2007 Michael Mack - All Rights Reserved
Mistletoe Angel
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1 posted 2007-10-29 01:01 PM


Hey Michael, glad to see you living on the wild side with the centered font!

*

To answer your question, in my experience, particularly during Memorial Day services, national anthems at sports games and during elementary school when me and my classmates recited the anthem at the beginning of class, I would always have my hand on my heart, which I think was just a natural habit in that, after all, that's the way we see Americans reciting the national anthem usually, so I was just comfortable and familiar with it.

Look, I certainly don't think it's the end of the world or anything when someone doesn't happen to place their hand over ones heart during their pledge for whatever reason. But I do understand the curiosity at least behind this, as many in the Democratic Party among the Evangelical community in particular have often been accused of not only talking about faith enough in their campaigns, but that they also are somewhat unsympathetic to the faith-based community, and it's things like this that, whether intentionally or unintentionally saying something, reinforce and sinew that negative stereotype about the leadership of the Democratic Party and faith.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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2 posted 2007-10-29 01:58 PM


Thanks, Noah. No, definitely not the end of the world but, for a presidential candidate on center stage with other candidates and cameras one has to wonder if the man is that stupid or that rebellious or that self-confident in his own views. If he NEVER placed his hand over his heart, it would be one thing..to not do it on a public platform while doing itat other times does make one wonder. Perhaps he did not want to say "under God" but then I lose track. Is that still in the pledge or not?
Mistletoe Angel
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3 posted 2007-10-29 02:16 PM


No, I agree, Michael. It's lousy public relations when you're surrounded by others who are making the pledge, yet you're not doing so, especially when 76% of Americans in a recent poll identified themselves as Christians with a majority saying they recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.....that's for sure.

Last time I checked, by the way.....yes, "one nation under God" is still definitely included in the Pledge of Allegiance. I still hear some accidentally chant "invisible" rather than "indivisible", LOL, but "under God" is a central part of the Allegiance and has been since it was first written.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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4 posted 2007-10-29 02:45 PM


Red Skelton will be happy to hear that
rwood
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5 posted 2007-10-29 03:14 PM


I dunno. The photo is real? It’s amusing to me. I mean, Obama looks like a lost giant who simply wandered up on stage in Forrest Gump fashion, while the others seem to be pledging something to an empty field. It almost looks like a practice session at a county fair before anyone showed up. Hill & Ruth look like Hobbits & the Gov. looks like he’s about to have a heart attack.

If a pledge is all indicative of having a heart, then someone had to help Hill find hers.

“No, a little to the left. No. Not your shoulder, lower, that’s right. Left boob area. Now grab it. Good. Do that every time and no one will know. Okay, honey?”

“Alright, Bill. I’ll try.”

quote:
76% of Americans in a recent poll identified themselves as Christians with a majority saying they recite the Pledge of Allegiance at least once a week.....that's for sure.


The only way I’d believe that to be “for sure” is if you told me the poll was incorporated into a kindergarten potty closet, where after everyone had their turn, they all got in a circle & sang the National Anthem complete with eagle puppets.

Sorry. I’m more worried about whether or not any of them are aware of the Constitution than spouting sing song politics or making gestures they may or may not be sincere about.

as you can see, it's easy to pick on someone for little things, but we need big changes, bigger than our hearts or even the churches we may belong to, and change is scary for most.

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6 posted 2007-10-29 03:34 PM


You are questioning whether the photo is real??? Were you on the O.J. jury?
Didn't you read the Scopes verification?

I’m more worried about whether or not any of them are aware of the Constitution than spouting sing song politics or making gestures they may or may not be sincere about.

Interesting. So you feel not being sincere about pleading allegiance to the country and it's constitution is ok for a presidential candidate? Doesn't sound like a lot of awareness of the  constitution to me.

TomMark
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7 posted 2007-10-29 04:08 PM


Sir, if you hate organized religion, you must hate formularizied patriotic gesture. Do you call French fry freedom fry?

Those..pin, hand to heart means nothing. The ones flought into Twins could do better.

Obama...too young


Does this make  you  like Hillary more?

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8 posted 2007-10-29 04:16 PM


???
TomMark
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9 posted 2007-10-29 04:34 PM



Mistletoe Angel
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10 posted 2007-10-29 05:44 PM


By the way, it appears Obama's campaign has much more to worry about than this:

*

The Caucus: New York Times: October 29th, 2007

*

*

Worst........Obama campaign week............Ever!

As much as I'd like to think Bill Richardson or another candidate will rise up now following this Obama campaign implosion, sadly, it's appearing more likely that Hillary is more closer to inevitable status than ever to win the Democratic nomination.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Grinch
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11 posted 2007-10-29 06:42 PM



quote:
So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?


I think the answer depends on whether you can cite a case where someone placed their hand on their heart, recited the pledge but whose subsequent actions turned out to be contrary to the symbol and pledge.

If such a case exists the symbol isn’t synonymous or indicative of anything apart from perhaps following the crowd or paying lip service to your integrity and patriotism by a simple hand gesture and recitation. That seems to be what Obama was saying with regard to the pins, wearing them is fine as a gesture but actions should be the measure by which people are judged.

“Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings”

Robert Zimmerman

"There will be no whitewash at the Whitehouse."

President Richard Nixon


Huan Yi
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12 posted 2007-10-29 07:52 PM


.

Senator Barack Obama was flavor of the moment
which he pretty much said himself.


.

rwood
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13 posted 2007-10-29 10:02 PM


quote:
So you feel not being sincere about pleading allegiance to the country and it's constitution is ok for a presidential candidate? Doesn't sound like a lot of awareness of the  constitution to me.


Grinch pretty much nailed it, but most are not aware of the Pledge.

"Bellamy [the author of The Pledge of Allegiance] said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue."

and that the PoA is not in reference to the Constitution, but to the Flag in celebration of Columbus Day.

In fact, the words "equality and fraternity" were left out since women and blacks still didn't receive equal rights when it was written, so it couldn't have had much to do at all with the constitution and had more to do with national solidarity.

The words, "Under God," were added several years later.

it's all on wiki.

It's a nice ritual, but there were some true patriots well before 1892 that didn't need to recite anything to be patriotic.

Hey, I'm sentimental about it. I believe in the words. I cry when I hear Taps playing during a soldier's burial ceremony, and I know that flag will go to the spouse or loved one. I have one. But it didn't make them a patriot.

that's all I can say.


Not A Poet
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14 posted 2007-10-29 10:57 PM


Every citizen, of course, has the right to pledge or refuse to pledge. It does seem, however, that something a little special should be expected of one who seeks to office of President. Maybe allegiance to the constitution, the flag, the country, the whole damn bundle.

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15 posted 2007-10-30 01:50 AM


Grinch, I don't think Obama is saying that at all. What he seems to be doing is playing CYA.

Of course there are those who would cite the pledge and then do something unpatriotic, just as there are millions who go to church and then go out and sin. That doesn't belittle either the traditions or the church.

i believe that if someone like Obama wants recognition of being patriotic and a believer of this country it would be to his advantage to act like it by participating in the same rituals that have been practiced for generations and have come to have importance in our minds.

Perhaps we should throw out the Scout Oath or the swearing in of the president, since all of those things are just words. If a man can't pledge allegiance publicly to the country he wants to lead, there's a problem somewhere.

Grinch
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16 posted 2007-10-30 10:50 AM



quote:
Grinch, I don't think Obama is saying that at all. What he seems to be doing is playing CYA.


That just doesn’t make sense Michael, if he was intent on covering anything surely he’d just simply play along and go with the flow, what he’s doing is making a conscious choice not to cover his rear. He’s stating pretty categorically that actions speak louder than words.

“I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism.”

quote:
i believe that if someone like Obama wants recognition of being patriotic and a believer of this country it would be to his advantage to act like it by participating in the same rituals that have been practiced for generations and have come to have importance in our minds.


The key word here Michael is act, in this context it has a similar meaning as pretend, dupe and lie all of which aren’t very good traits for a commander-in-chief.

I think Obama has shown one trait that is needed – honesty – you may not like what he’s saying but he should at least get credit for saying it.

quote:
If a man can't pledge allegiance publicly to the country he wants to lead, there's a problem somewhere.


But not half as big as the problems you get when someone pledges his allegiance then acts against the best interests of his country. The pledge doesn’t guarantee a good president; a good president is defined by his actions.  


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17 posted 2007-10-30 12:16 PM


grinch, I understand where you are coming from and it's true that actions speak louder than words or gestures. As the Spanish saying goes, "what you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you're saying". I really don't think that covers this area, though.

Our lives are filled with rituals and traditions. No, we don't have to recite pledges. Nor do we have to say Happy Anniversary, honey. We can just say "Judge me by my actions". (try that one!)  We don't have to stand before the flag or show respect when we don't feel like it.....but what would life be without them? Presidents don't have to be sworn in to pledge their best for the country nor do they have to put their hand on the Bible (just judge me by my actions). No oaths have to be taken by anyone from scouts to rotary clubs to any organizations....but we do those things? Why? Tradition and a form of respect.

Obama IS being judges by his actions. His action was not to pay respect to the flag by placing his hand over his heart, as all of the other candidates and assuredly the large percentage of the crowd gathered there did. Sure, he can be a rebel if he wants but who wants Marlon Brando as president? This is a man who claims to have the intelligence need to run the country and yet is not smart enough to recognize his non-action as an action taken as a lack of respect to the flag and those who believe the flag should be respected by the rituals we honor. Try taking obama out of that pic and substituting Bush. The democrats would be screaming and it would be front page material.

Does he have to do it? No. Is it a lack of respect to the flag? Probably not. Is it a lack of respect to those who believe the flag should be honored in the same tradition it has always been, especially by a man running for President? I would say yes.....and, I believe, so would many others.

Susan Caldwell
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18 posted 2007-10-30 12:24 PM


My first thought was that the picture looked photo shopped.  And it does happen, all the time.  Very little is NOT photo shopped in some way now days.  

In other news, some religions feel that it is worshipping something other than the "god" by pledging to the flag and putting your hand over your heart to do so.

Does not doing so make one unpatriotic?  Love their country less?  

I don't worship the way most do, does that make me a heathen?

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

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19 posted 2007-10-30 01:23 PM


susan, putting yout hand over your heart does not "worship" the flag. It is simply a show of respect towards it and the country it represents. A lot of people have died defending it.

Singing along with "The Star-Spangled Banner" at a ball game is not worship, either. It's a tradition and, as a singing Jew once proclaimed, "Without our traditions we are nothing more than a fiddler on the roof."

Susan Caldwell
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20 posted 2007-10-30 06:53 PM


As you may know I spent 10 yrs defending my country in the USN.  So, I contend there are other ways to show respect.

As I said, it is how some believe and who am I to judge their beliefs as long as they don't infringe upon someone else's?

I personally think there are far worse things to worry about in regards to the upcoming election.  



"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
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21 posted 2007-10-31 03:06 AM


I'm curious, Susan. During your 10 years, whenever you were outside during reveille or taps, did you stand at attention and salute the  flag and, when you did so, did you feel you were being made to worship it or did you perhaps feels some pride in doing so?
Susan Caldwell
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22 posted 2007-10-31 11:02 AM


As you well know, being in the military means you must do those things.  But that wasn't my point...

I tried to not make this a "me" thing in that I tried not to give my opinion on this other than I believe we should have the choice without judgment.  Apparently I didn't come across as I had hoped and you somehow got the impression that I was saying I do not pledge or put my hand on my heart. But what I do or don't do isn't the issue in my mind, nor the point, as I said.

"...does not "worship" the flag" this statement you made...seems to be written as if it were fact...can you give me your resources?

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
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TomMark
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23 posted 2007-10-31 11:21 AM


Sir Balladeer, I agree with you. A man running for president shall not present himself in such  foolishness. If he is not smart enough to realize that this sort of behave will cost his votes then he is not smart enough to take the position at all.


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24 posted 2007-10-31 11:33 AM


No, Susan, I did not infer anything about your personal actions or lack of at all.

My resources? Just logic and common sense. Can you show me anywhere that it states covering your heart or reciting the pledge is worship? Is taking marriage vows worship? (regardless of what your mate says?) Is the Boy Scout oath worship? Is taking the oath on the witness stand worship? There is a huge difference between worship and respect.

If you were in a room filled with Muslims and, at the appropriate time, they all bowed their heads and turned toward Mecca, would you stand there looking around and whistling "She'll be coming around the mountain"? Of course not. You would remain quiet in respect of their beliefs. Obama was in a public gathering where the others were all paying proper respect to the flag and he looks like he's looking for the hot dog vendor.

Again, if that were his strong belief I would go with him but, according to his people, sometimes he feels like doing it and sometimes he doesn't. What kind of policy is that? The man must be a politician!

Is it a biggie in the grand scheme of things? Of course not, but for me personally, it is not understandable and personally offensive. If a man on center stage running for president cannot show respect to the flag in the tradition we believe in, he's not a rebel - he's a fool...and I feel confident that there is a respectable number of vets out there who would agree with me.

Ron
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25 posted 2007-10-31 12:12 PM


quote:
..and I feel confident that there is a respectable number of vets out there who would agree with me.

Sigh. You just had to bring the vets into this, didn't you? Ok, then, count me as one vet who doesn't agree, Mike.

Your implication is that Obama displayed disrespect when, in fact, he simply showed his respect in a manner different than you would. Welcome to America, where cultural differences are accepted, not vilified.

FWIW, I don't put my hand over my heart, either. As best I can recall, that wasn't what I was taught to do way back in elementary school. Regional differences? I don't know. I do know, however, that standing at alert attention is not intended to be disrespectful.

Oh, and when I tell my children that I love them? I don't put my hand over my heart for that either.  



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26 posted 2007-10-31 12:53 PM


Hey, Ron I simply said there are many...not all. Your not feeling that way or Susan not feeling that way is no negative reflection on either of you....or anyone else who agrees with you. I will stand by my statement, though, that there are many who will feel differently.

Interesting elementary schools you have there. We actually WERE taught to place our hands over our hearts in elementary school...but what can one expect from Missouri?

Obama's action is a cultural difference? Do tell...

You don't place your hand over your heart when telling your children you love them? Of course not...every parent knows you place your hand over your wallet!

It's interesting to see the lengths you all go to with your examples to justify this "inaction". Not showing respect for the flag in the traditional way by a presidential candidate somehow corresponds to telling your children you love them and "worshipping" the flag. Justification can certainly take many roads, can't it?

All I can say is that, if I were in that audience, standing there with my hand over my heart reciting the pledge along with the crowd and the presidential candidates and I looked up and saw Obama looking like he was waiting for the crosstown bus, I would have been looking for tomatoes....and my aim ain't bad.

Susan Caldwell
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27 posted 2007-10-31 01:02 PM


Wouldn’t you agree that your logic and common sense may be different from another’s logic and common sense?  That situation and perspective may have something to do with the logic and/or common sense we believe?

It seems to me that you may honestly believe that what you believe is what all should believe.  I know that can’t be right, so what are you saying?  I honestly don’t understand.  

I said:

“some religions feel that it is worshipping something other than the "god" by pledging to the flag and putting your hand over your heart to do so.”

I don’t think I even slightly implied what I said was fact, therefore, no resources.

You said:

“susan, putting yout hand over your heart does not "worship" the flag.”

In my opinion, that statement kind of sounds like a fact rather than an opinion, this is why I asked for a resource.  

Maybe I am incapable of communicating my point.  Maybe I have failed at simply making my opinion clear.  

I do know, this vet feels that everyone should have the right to believe and practice
as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe upon someone elses rights.  That's what I thought we fought for when we came to this country.  

But maybe I am just an uneducated little girl with no real need for an opinion?  
  


"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

Susan Caldwell
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28 posted 2007-10-31 01:15 PM


"It's interesting to see the lengths you all go to with your examples to justify this "inaction". Not showing respect for the flag in the traditional way by a presidential candidate somehow corresponds to telling your children you love them and "worshipping" the flag. Justification can certainly take many roads, can't it?"

No, I was just offering a different perspective on the matter.  It's that it's different than yours that seems to be what bothers you.

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

rwood
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29 posted 2007-10-31 01:43 PM


quote:
I do know, this vet feels that everyone should have the right to believe and practice
as they wish as long as it doesn't infringe upon someone elses rights.  That's what I thought we fought for when we came to this country.


I salute you and your point.
  

Balladeer
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30 posted 2007-10-31 02:11 PM


ok, then. His right is to practice the tradition when he feels like it and not when he doesn't. Is that it? I can understand a person who sets his beliefs or standards in a specific way, but to say "I do it when I want and not when I don't feel like it." Is that ok? It's ok for you and me, I suppose. Yes, in America, we can act anyway we want. We can strive to be successful or we can be content being street bums if we so choose. We can stand for certain ideals or we can decide when we want to stand for those ideals and when we want to do the opposite. That is indeed what America is all about. Is that the president we want, though?

Obama is saying basically, "I will respect the flag in the traditional way when I want to and if I don't feel like it at other times, I won't". That's the fellow to believe in? Ok, you can have him....

TomMark
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31 posted 2007-10-31 02:20 PM


Is he respectful to the flag or to the national integrity?

I would not judge him as disrespectful if he was in a crowd  But on a public platform, I say, no,  He did not perform a respect gesture....an unqualified actor.

Susan Caldwell
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32 posted 2007-10-31 03:17 PM


The president I want?!?!?

That's a choice???

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

hush
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33 posted 2007-10-31 03:22 PM


This is stupid.

I think Bill Richardson is being disrespectful because he's facing the camera, instead of facing to the left like the other three.

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34 posted 2007-10-31 03:27 PM


Hey, Susan!! The "you" is figurative...no need to take things so personally.
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35 posted 2007-10-31 03:28 PM


True, hush...and Hillary is being disrespectful     because she is pretending to have a heart...
rwood
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36 posted 2007-10-31 03:38 PM


Laughing.

Doh, sorry, don't mean to be disrespectful. Must control my funny bone.

Krawdad
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37 posted 2007-10-31 05:56 PM


Michael,

While I would prefer not to extend one of your "poke-'em-in-the-ribs-just-to-see-how-they-yelp" threads, I thought you might be interested in the socialist connection to the origin of the "Pledge".  

And, Noah?

Check your facts, man, "under God" was added in 1954 after the K of C lobbied Congress.  I know, I was there in grade school under the watchful eyes and ears of a nun.

Here's a link:

The Pledge . . . a Short History

Ron
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38 posted 2007-10-31 06:07 PM


quote:
I can understand a person who sets his beliefs or standards in a specific way, but to say "I do it when I want and not when I don't feel like it." Is that ok?

Of course it's okay, Mike. You don't believe Bush lies to us ALL the time, do you?

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39 posted 2007-10-31 06:48 PM


I see. Then Bush should be the standard by which candidates are judged? He would like that!!
TomMark
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40 posted 2007-11-01 02:46 AM


Sir Balladeer
"Hillary is being disrespectful     because she is pretending to have a heart..."

hands up or not, you have sayings on either way because you do not like them....those "Democrates" ( your definition)

I don't think that you have been fair.

you are very right on Bush being the standard. Actually he shall be the cutting point. Anybody who wants to be on the ticket should be smarter than him.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-01-2007 03:41 AM).]

Balladeer
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41 posted 2007-11-01 12:40 PM


Hillary has nothing to do with "those Democrats", Tom. She is in a class all by herself.
TomMark
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42 posted 2007-11-01 08:00 PM


My dear sir Balladeer

"Noah, I agree completely. One sometimes forgets how another will interpret one's words. When I say "the Democrats", I mean the leaders of the Democratic party. My references are to the people I name - Pelosi, Boxer, Gore, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, Hillary, Murtha and the rest of that motley crew. I assume that readers know that."  

See how I got you!!!!

Do you really assume that readers know that?

why don't you like Hillary?

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43 posted 2007-11-02 01:46 AM


Tom, if she gets the nomination and is then called on over all the things in her sleazy past, you will understand why I - and many others - do not like her. She is a snake...
TomMark
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44 posted 2007-11-02 04:28 PM


Dear Sir Balladeer,

My old neighbour, my dearest friend and a diehard republican, said that Hillary had murdered people. Her husband said the same thing. I really had  hard time to believe them. They truly hate her. I can not understand why ( they are from Taxes not Arkanses). They want me to read something on some sites...I do not believe most site stories so  i did not bother myself.

A working woman, ambitious lawyer, a mother, a wife cheated by her femouse husband, wants to take charge of US. I see nothing wrong with it. I see nothing wrong that woman wants to be a leader.  And even she took extra things from White House as "souvenir"s after they finished their session made her even more human.

I do not like her healthcare policy but I can not believe that she is an evil person, unless I see some solid facts.


Huan Yi
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45 posted 2007-11-02 05:45 PM


.

“.  .Hillary’s problem goes beyond discomfort with dynastic succession. It’s deep unease about a shared presidency. Forget about Bill, the bad boy. The problem is William Jefferson Clinton, former president of the United States, commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces, George Washington’s representative on earth.

We have never had an ex-president move back into the White House. When in 1992 Bill Clinton promised “two for the price of one,” it was taken as a slightly hyperbolic promotion of the role of first lady. This time we would literally be getting two presidents.

Any ex-president is a presence in his own right. His stature, unlike, say, Hillary’s during Bill’s presidency, is independent of his spouse. From day one of Hillary’s inauguration, Bill will have had more experience than her at everything she touches. His influence on her presidency would necessarily be immeasurably greater than that of any father on any son.

Americans did not like the idea of a co-presidency when, at the 1980 Republican convention, Ronald Reagan briefly considered sharing the office with former President Gerald Ford. (Ford would have been vice president with independent powers.) And they won’t like this co-presidency, particularly because the Clinton partnership involves two characters caught in the dynamic of a strained, strange marriage.

The cloud hovering over a Hillary presidency is not Bill padding around the White House in robe and slippers flipping thongs. It’s President Clinton, in suit and tie, simply present in the White House when any decision is made. The degree of his involvement in that decision will inevitably become an issue. Do Americans really want a historically unique two-headed presidency constantly buffeted by the dynamics of a highly dysfunctional marriage?”

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTVjZDgwMmU3ZmJjZDU4NmQwN2EzMjRlM2VmNzllNGI=&w=MQ==

.

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46 posted 2007-11-02 06:36 PM


oh, dear John, nothing is concrete here.

is there an old saying that "two heads are better than one?"  

Now, why Clinton is bad? his time was not that bad, right? Clinton, at least  is much better than Dick Cheney.

And is Nationalreview a kind of tabloid thing?

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-02-2007 10:33 PM).]

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47 posted 2007-11-02 10:38 PM


quote:

Do Americans really want a historically unique two-headed presidency constantly buffeted by the dynamics of a highly dysfunctional marriage?”



Oh My   This does sound eerily famiar -- like -- Bush-Cheny.  But, we know there was only really one President there.  Eh?

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48 posted 2007-11-02 11:31 PM


Tom, I'm certainly no fan of Dick Cheney either at all, and I ALSO don't want Hillary Clinton elected, as her history of political calculation and corruption reveals a candidate who I believe is too closely tied to Washington and is opportunistic.

She has failed to explain a plan to sell taxpayer-financed trade missions in exchange for campaign contributions to the Clinton-Gore 1996 re-election campaign (which Nolanda Hill, partner and confidante of the late Clinton Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, said under sworn testimony that Hillary Clinton was the brains behind the effort)

She has failed to explain how she failed to report more than $2 million in contributions to her Senate 2000 campaign in New York, which testimony from the criminal investigation and trial of her National Finance Director, David Rosen, found she did indeed know the figures and never reported them.

She has failed to explain the mysterious vanishing act of her Whitewater billing records from the office of Vince Foster, the former Rose Law Firm partner and Clinton White House counsel who is said to have committed suicide in 1993......and how they magically came back in the White House with her very fingerprints on them.

She has failed to explain some records from the Chicago Mercantile Exchange that cite a $1,000 investment in cattle futures in 1978 turning into more than $100,000 in the span of ten months, and how she ever received a sky-high return to begin with.

She has failed to explain how her brothers Anthony and Hugh brokered huge cash deals for the purpose of collecting presidential pardons from her husband on behalf of convicted criminals, or if she herself had anything to do with the last 140 pardons her husband offered during the end of his second term.

She has failed to explain Craig Livingstone, Yucalpa, the abrupt firing of seven longtime employees in the White House Travel office which Independent Counsel Robert Ray said she played a central role in, John Huang and the Lippo Group among other potential scandals that wouldn't fit on a laundry list.

But beyond that, almost everything Clinton does politically strikes me as disingenuous and calculated. Is it merely coincidence that she has gotten increasingly anti-war as the disapproval ratings continue to rise, evolving especially after her party's victories in last November's elections?

There was a cartoon I actually saw in the newspaper early this year that epitomizes exactly how she welds with the issues; featuring an anti-war parade moving up the boulevard, and Hillary is hiding there on the street corner, shown half-hidden, asking her campaign advisor if she should march out there to the front of the parade and lead it or not.

That's how Clinton generally behaves on the breadth of issues. She's dishonest and doesn't strike me as really standing for anything. Come to think of it, she hasn't even said WHY she's running for the White House to begin with. I know Edwards is running on the platform of "two Americas", Dodd on restoring the Constitution, and Gravel on God knows what, LOL, but Hillary has yet to answer even that simple question really.

Being unyielding and so stubborn your boots are literally bolted to the ground, as our current president is like, is one major problem as it just shows one is unable to compromise or listen to others beyond his inner-circle, but being entirely calculating all the time is equally as problematic, and Clinton represents that other polarity.

*

But finally, there's something about her personality on the trail that is also so artificial. Take her "cackling" a notable bit more than usual, for instance. Obviously there's a genuine way of taking the suggestions of others to heart, one popular one of which has been that Hillary appears too cold and aloof publically and needs to lighten up. But yet, when she has suddenly been not only cackling more often, but during awkward and serious moments both in debates and television interviews, there's something irritable about that.

Or you may also recall that peculiar moment in March of this year, when Hillary Clinton (along with Barack Obama) attended services at the First Baptist Church in Selma, Alabama, and exercised a lame attempt at a Southern accent when she spoke, even quoting from an old Gospel Hymn titled "I Don't Feel Noways Tired", saying: “Aww don’t feel noways tired. I’ve come too faarrr from where I started frum…Aww culd have listened all day luung."

*

So, you see, there is an opportunistic pattern here; a pattern where Hillary is desperately trying to soften what is generally perceived as her shrill image. I don't think many are buying into it as the attempt at a Southern accent especially just appeared completely forced and phony, but that's her strategy currently: trying to redefine herself completely and demonstrate she has a sense of humor like everyone else, she understands middle America just as well as the next American, etc.

*

It's for THOSE reasons in particular I simply cannot vote for Hillary Clinton, period.

What can I say, some people will simply do anything to get elected. Fred Thompson may try to make himself grow even taller to try and pick up votes too as far as I'm concerned.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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49 posted 2007-11-03 01:54 AM


Thank you very much Noah.

Hillary is not a stupid lady, of course. She will do anything to meet her goal. But is she an everage politician or the evil one? Is it that whatever she did is what all the politicians are doing today?

Vince Foster, i believe , was under Clintons' pressure but it does not mean that she killed him.

I have not much knowledge of her but I know many do not like her. My opinion on her is that it is not easy  at all for a lady to come to this far in political field in US.

Thank you again, Noah.

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50 posted 2007-11-04 02:38 PM


Tom, I absolutely agree it's not easy at all for women, even today, to come particularly far in politics.

I for one believe that this nation is certainly ready for a woman president. I truly believe that. And I'm not disapproving of the thought of Hillary Clinton being elected the 44th President of the United States BECAUSE she's a woman whatsoever. I disapprove of the thought of her being elected BECAUSE she's too flawed as a candidate.

Also, while I'm glad women are finally being represented into other professions such as House Majority Leader also, I also wish the first woman to represent that role could have been someone other than Nancy Pelosi.

*

Mind you I certainly believe most other politicians do most of what she does as well. I'm opposed to Mitt Romney and John McCain being elected president for the exact same thing; both those GOP hopefuls are opportunistic, calculating and fatally inconsistent in their views just as Hillary is. In fact, I have no intention of voting for either of the four current GOP front-runners, where Fred Thompson certainly strikes me as though his heart isn't even in the race and hasn't explained WHY he's running either, while I've grown very leary of Rudy Giuliani because he's cozied up to many of the neoconservative hawks, including Norman Podhoretz, who are now helping manage his presidential campaign.

My favorite Democratic candidate currently is Bill Richardson (Christopher Dodd a close second) with my favorite GOP candidate Ron Paul (Mike Huckabee a fairly distant second)

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Huan Yi
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51 posted 2007-11-04 08:16 PM


"Oh My   This does sound eerily famiar -- like -- Bush-Cheny.  But, we know there was only really one President there.  Eh? "


There'll be no doubt with the Clintons.

Huan Yi
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52 posted 2007-11-04 08:21 PM


.

“Oh My    This does sound eerily famiar -- like -- Bush-Cheny.  But, we know there was only really one President there.  Eh?”

There will be no doubt
with the Clintons . . .

How is it with 300 million people
we can't come up with better choices?

.

Ron
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53 posted 2007-11-04 09:02 PM


Because I'm already busy?

More seriously, I'm beginning to suspect that anyone who is smart enough to run the country is also smart enough to NOT put themselves into the line of fire. The American public, be it Mike on one side or Noah on the other, is merciless. What person in their right mind would volunteer to read a thread like this one about themselves?



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54 posted 2007-11-05 12:17 PM


Ron, please don't call Noah merciless. He means well
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55 posted 2007-11-05 02:32 AM


Dear Noah, I am glad to read your words and you are such a open minded young man.

I may not dislike Hillery, but I do not want a woman president. I do not want woman to be the  leader in this country, whoever she is. As for Hillary, She can be a club leader but not president. She has very practical skill to get something but her thought of a country (or a society)  may be too ideal.

Tomtoo

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56 posted 2007-11-05 02:47 AM


"What person in their right mind would volunteer to read a thread like this one about themselves?"

Polititians are professionally trained to handle throwing eggs and pies and tomatos and dirty words.  They are not at all as sentimentle as  as poets, I believe.   you are too kind!!! which made me think that you might have voted for both party at the same time to show your mercy..

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-05-2007 05:20 AM).]

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57 posted 2007-11-05 05:42 AM


And Dear Sir Balladeer, you are a republican as I can tell by what you have posted. sound like Ann Coulter and Pat Roberson.

Two years ago, I met a young freshman who firmly claimed that he was a republican. I asked him if he chose this party because its value or because his parents. He said both. His mother was a Republican and he did not want big government and he did not want large tax.

so is there a parental influence on you to become a Republican?

My children (three) are all the only one or two in their class ( out of 23 students) to vote for John Kerry in Kids-vote in St.louis where most are Republicans. They were only first and third grade students. how could they know whom they were going to vote? I told my children that both of them were not good but Kerry at lease  had the gut to go to Vietnam and they shall not be afraid of being the only one.  The third grade teacher when ask students to do report on American presidents, did not know that there was a Biography for Trumen and ask my child to show the book to her. Again, my child was the only one who wrote about a president in Democretic party in his class.

Is American serious about the political party or is it merely a family thing? esp to Republicans?

Susan Caldwell
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58 posted 2007-11-05 09:36 AM


"...but I do not want a woman president. I do not want woman to be the  leader in this country, whoever she is.."

*groan*

Do I even want to go there?  

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

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59 posted 2007-11-05 02:54 PM


Tom, you raise an interesting point regarding how political affliation often seems to be hereditary just like ones cholesterol levels, eye and hair color, facial structure and possible health concerns, LOL.

From my experience, I think often that is the case, because the parents of many tend to preach to their children what is right and wrong in their view, and those perceptions tend to rub off on them and influence their way of thinking at least to some extent throughout their lives.

The rest of my family are registered Democrats, whereas I am the lone registered Independent. They have long told me how they are distrusting of the GOP establishment and believe they're out of touch with the middle class and all, and they add that while they have their beef with the Democratic Party also and all (citing particularly their views on immigration) they argue their voting records at least run close enough to their views so they decide to register under that party affliation.

But in my view, I find tethering yourself to one particular party is irresponsible to a great extent, as what's also important to note is that my grandparents, in contrast to my parents, are rather independently-minded when it comes to voting. They have voted for Republicans often in the past (they voted for consecutive Republican presidents between 1976 and 2000) but voted for John Kerry in 2004 out of protest with the Bush Administration and have said they're considering voting for another Democrat in 2008 as they believe the GOP has lost their way themselves. And my grandparents are much more conservative in their views.

So, in a sense, I think I'm somewhere between my grandparents and my parents politically-speaking. Overall I agree with what my parents argue aout the current GOP establishment's leadership, but all the same I disagree with them on that it's any good to just align with the Democratic Party in protest, rather than profess your independence as a voter, as if we don't make that message clear that many Americans are disenchanted with this rigid two-party system, then it'll remain assumed there's really no weariness toward this constant migraine of a system we have. It's in that respect I agree more with my grandparents, who vote more based on the candidates (as I believe that's how Americans should be voting anyway)

I'm an Independent who happens to believe in some values that are deemed "conservative" under traditional definition, including the notions of limited government, state rights, fiscal responsibility and that change isn't all bad but it must come naturally rather than be spontaneous, as well as believe in some values that are considered "liberal" under traditional definition, particularly limitations on the power of government, the free exchange of ideas and individual rights. But ultimately, I believe such labels are irresponsible and fail to make justice of how we're all unique and individualistic as Americans, and I'm disinclined to stand rank-in-file with any particular party for that reason, as well as my belief that both parties are failing this country in certain respects.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

rwood
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60 posted 2007-11-05 03:10 PM


quote:
"...but I do not want a woman president. I do not want woman to be the  leader in this country, whoever she is.."


“*groan*

Do I even want to go there? “


I will.


TomMark~

Why do you need to be led, exclusively, by a male?

Not that Hillary is an ideal candidate, regardless of whether she wears boxers or panties, but sex shouldn’t be an issue of Today. America needs a quality leader with quality traits, and hopefully one so deemed and teeming with them that the PERSON will quash any and all actions/attitudes that feed inequality.

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61 posted 2007-11-05 05:40 PM


Thank you Noah. You are a very smart young man. You do have a very clear view of both parties.

But none of the parties and polititians has a mind as clean as yours. I see that you take politics very seriously...You know that the fight and dirt is  more than that in a football field, right?  

I read through many of  your posts.... You have lots of information on many issues of this country. You must have a big heart for the contry and society.  

Thank you again Noah and wish you well of your health.

TomMark
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62 posted 2007-11-05 05:51 PM


Dear rwood, Hillary is way too "sly".  And is  American (The Hill)ready to work with a woman president?

woman, when gets so far, is stone hearted on  many issues...tough.  not good. I have felt errily Whenever I see a woman talking so loudly in public, esp in politics.  

Tomtoo



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63 posted 2007-11-05 07:56 PM


Thanks, Tom!

I've always cared very much about the world I live in, though I admit I was rather apolitical prior to 2003. My parents, in contrast, were very angry in late 2000 when they believed the Supreme Court handed over the presidency to George W. Bush, while at the time I was crossed my arms and thinking "Whatever, virtually all politicians are dishonest anyway!"

But the build-up to the war in Iraq is what got me actively paying attention to the political shape of things. I kept quiet during the build-up to the invasion of Afghanistan because, after all, that made absolute sense as that truly was where al-Qaeda sympathizers were stationed, responsible in part for the attacks on 9/11. But I vocally protested the war in Iraq because I read that none of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers came from Iraq, nor did the nation strike me as one that could attack us, regardless of how brutal their dictator was. It just didn't make sense to me and, because I was raised believing fighting fire with fire almost always scatters the flames elsewhere, and believing interventionism should only be done so as a certain last resort and when the threat is undeniable and ever-looming, and not for other purposes such as geopolitical intents and nation-building.

Since 2003, yes, I believe it is my obligatory role as an American citizen who also cares about the world to speak my heart and mind openly, and while I believe politics is one of the worst proverbial diseases on this planet, there are a few things even worse than that such as war, pestilence, terrorism, genocide, etc., and ultimately, ironically, it is politics that puts the pressure, as well as the human face and awareness, on such tragedies.

*

And thanks Tom for thinking about my health as well. Though the recovery from my eating disorder is still happening and has been too slow, it's been a gradual recovery nonetheless.

In fact, I will be featured in a forthcoming article about orthorexia (being coined as the latest mass eating disorder, termed as a turn of phrase from anorexia where, unlike the latter, orthoretics love food IF it is natural and free of synthetics and cyclamates) and will share the link in Announcements and Links when it is finalized, as I believe it is crucial to break the silence about this fast-growing concern.

Thanks again, Tom!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Huan Yi
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64 posted 2007-11-05 09:16 PM


TomMark,

Golda Meir


John

TomMark
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65 posted 2007-11-05 10:38 PM



Sit Huan, her words,

• At work, you think of the children you've left at home. At home, you think of the work you've left unfinished. Such a struggle is unleashed within yourself, your heart is rent.

• I can honestly say that I was never affected by the question of the success of an undertaking. If I felt it was the right thing to do, I was for it regardless of the possible outcome.

• We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon—no alternative.

• The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight. 1969

• It’s no accident many accuse me of conducting public affairs with my heart instead of my head. Well, what if I do? … Those who don’t know how to weep with their whole heart don’t know how to laugh either. 1973

• Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil! 1973

• To be or not to be is not a question of compromise. Either you be or you don't be. 1974

and where is your poem?

Tomtoo  

TomMark
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66 posted 2007-11-05 10:48 PM


Thank you Noah again.  

Take good care of yourself.

you have you views and your opinions. then you have your dream of a society. Someday, you   may wnat to fight in political field...
Good Health shall be the  first thing.

you may drill yourself with Sir Balladeer.

Thank you again, Noah.

Tomtoo

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67 posted 2007-11-05 11:30 PM


Thanks, Tom, but I have no aspirations whatsoever right now in terms of a political career or something along that line.

What fascinates me, rather, is volunteering in the community and being the change you want to see in the world on a local level, particularly through my appreciation of the arts and humanities. It's through the creative arts and special education field I'd like to see myself headed in terms of a career/lifestyle.

*

I ain't going to drill myself with anyone here either, LOL! While Michael and I, for instance, have our divides on a host of issues, and it is in my belief that he tends to speak like a spokesperson for the Bush Administration or the chairman of the Republican National Committee ANY time the president or the GOP leadership is set in a defensive or unflattering light, where he dismisses such a scenario as an offensive led by the Democratic leadership and MoveOn and George Soros EVERY time........I ALSO believe Michael means well, and the fact is we too meet on some levels (read some of the immigration-themed topics, for instance, where our agreement is most notable)

You have every right to question his views (I urge you also not to hesitate criticizing me or anyone for that matter either when you're in disagreement with me) if you wish, but I must say I have gotten to know a lot about our friend Michael for almost six years now here, and when I read his thoughtful, emotive poems often, I see that he is a most genuine, compassionate and sensitive individual with a warm sense of humor and well-intended dry wit who, yes, also possesses the power of conviction, and while I have often disagreed with some of his views, sometimes frustrated even to where I'm shaking my head, it doesn't at all diminish my belief he is a good friend to this community, and to me.

Make no mistake that I'm fierce with my convictions as well, and won't back down in the face of pressure to what I believe verbally. But when I forcedly speak my disagreements toward others here, I also always make an effort not to let ego get in the way of them (I struggled more with that when I first posted here, and believe I have went a long way and matured since then, with more maturing yet to experience) and try and disgrace the individual. I find that mode of debating tragic and uncivil, and believe the purpose of debate is to educate most of all, to come to clearer terms from where one another is coming from, and only in treating each other as equals can we succeed in doing just that.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

TomMark
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68 posted 2007-11-06 05:29 AM


Ah, my dear Noah, you are so very a decent young man.. above your age.  I am very moved.  Sir balladeer must be very happy to read this.

You are very right about Sir Balladeer. I know that Sir Balladeer is a very good man by what he has posted. And he has every right to have his own opinions and choice on everything. (Since he is old enough to do so   .  He has been to WW2, I believe). And sometimes I talk to him in a humous way to make this "old" man a bit laugh...only if he got it   Trust me, I love him too.

Thank you Noah again for the writing.

I am glad that you are so invloed in community  service. As a smart and sensitive and kind man, I believe that very soon, you will find that there are issues here and there and you will find that it is the policy...need to be reformed...then you have to have the power to change it...then the office.  

But dear Noah, no doubt that you are a marvelous young man. It is wonderuful to know you and talk to you.

Thank you again, Noah.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-06-2007 06:43 PM).]

rwood
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69 posted 2007-11-06 07:12 AM


quote:
Dear rwood, Hillary is way too "sly".  And is  American (The Hill)ready to work with a woman president?


“The Hill” doesn’t choose who they work with. THE PEOPLE DO.

The way I see it: “The Hill” as a Hole/Whole isn’t working for anyone but themselves right now. The handful of people that are trying to do good UP on The Hill can’t get squat done without a Democratic Majority Rule. The Majority is too Busy abusing their power with creative writing projects, like resolutions for a someone to wage war against the supreme law of our land: Powers NOT granted them by the people for the people! So, I, logically, want an entire wash of the spineless idiots who are bought by Fortune 500 title holders, AND those that are so old their decrepitness will have to be washed out of their seats, AND I want a real Person to hold office on The Hill as our President, with all the foundations our forefathers fought for still intact & abided by for HIM OR HER to be President.

The Hill, then,  should not only be ready for a Woman, they should be ready for a Man.

until then, We Get Nothing But The Likes of Bush.

quote:
woman, when gets so far, is stone hearted on  many issues...tough.  not good. I have felt errily Whenever I see a woman talking so loudly in public, esp in politics.


I’m sorry you feel that way, but maybe I understand why. The Glass Ceilings have kept women in a bourgeois box for so long; many are unable to trust their own voices, let alone those that are breaking outside of the box. It takes loud voices sometimes to break those ceilings. Women equal Men in that they don’t always get things right, but sex discrimination is wrong, and it’s usually perpetrated by those who are cowards.

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70 posted 2007-11-06 12:06 PM


Absolutely agree, Regina.

I'll add one thing, as an aside, and that is I'm not thrilled with John Edwards as a candidate at all either in that he strikes me as contradicting himself when he speaks about poverty, yet also has had $400 haircuts and even to attend some of his poverty speeches are costly.

However, I have a high admiration for his wife, Elizabeth Edwards, and believe she would make a strong future candidate for President. In fact, as much as I disapprove of President Bush's job performance, I hold a very favorable view of his wife Laura Bush and her dedicating herself for years to education and public service both in her community and nationally. Both these women are inspiring in many ways to me, as are many other women currently who serve both in politics and public service.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

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71 posted 2007-11-06 05:08 PM


Thank you, Noah.Every you said to Tom is true (except for the 'you have every right to question his views' part).

Yes, we are both fairly staunch in our views and the fact that we have remained friends throughout means something. Too bad the different religions of the world can't learn from us.

Hats off, sir

Tom...I served in WW2? You are on my list!

TomMark
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72 posted 2007-11-06 08:18 PM


My dear Noah, allow me to say this, if you want to judge a polititian on his $400 hair cut, what if another one spent $40,000 (not much as to art) for an art master piece? Will you say that he shall donate those money to charity?

One of my friend's father was a lawyer in Taxes. They all used foreign goods...not made in  China but French and England and other Euro products. Two year ago, her parents sent her a French made toaster (catalog shopping). It costed some two hundred dollars while one can get it in Warmart with $9.99.

Most  senators are lawyers with some private practice history..they have their savings( )
At lease J.Edward's hair was made in America.

I will judge a polititian with his view of a society....who cares the young, old and disabled. and give others an equal chance to have full bloom of his ability to servive and produce.


As for the wifies, I will not dream that they do not share  the same political views with their husband.

WE are talking political figures. Otherwise I will not say that G.W.Bush is a silly man..he may be a very good heighbor to have. And he might be very human in some ways.  I truly believe that.

My thought

*****************

Dear Sir Balladeer, I am sorry that I have been wrong about your honored histoy. But I still have doubt that you had been to civil war since you are so young. Who paid you and which side were you at?

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-07-2007 12:19 AM).]

rwood
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73 posted 2007-11-06 08:50 PM


Thanks Noah,

and that was a nice write-up about Mike, and I enjoyed reading some things about your beginnings, as we were all pretty new at everything here. I'm happy you're still here with a strong voice.

I also agree with you about Laura Bush & Elizabeth Edwards. I pity Laura for obvious reasons, but admire her too, and Elizabeth is a fine woman with a strong backbone.

I like your current prezpicks...especially your GOP fav Ron Paul. Heard him on the radio of our local 103.5 today. He was questioned about abortion, education, IRS, etc. and all the Big Government involvement, and he used a great word to sum it all up. "Distractions."

It's time someone got focused on our big problems, eh? Something that everyone can agree on in this thread?

maybe/maybe not

thaz why it's the Alley


P.S. $400 haircuts? Does he have that much hair? I mean, my hair is an endless tumbleweed from hell and the stylists run screaming when I show up, but I ain't ever been charged even half that much.


Mistletoe Angel
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74 posted 2007-11-07 03:21 AM


Regina, thanks for sharing your view on Ron Paul there.

Of course, there are some issues where I disagree with him strongly on, including abolishing the Department of Education altogether, returning to the gold standard, pulling us out of the United Nations and disagree with his views on same-sex adoption and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Those particular positionings are somewhat unsettling to me.

However, Ron Paul strikes me as that individual who you may disagree with him strongly on some issues, but abiding by the true libertarian and constitutional philosophy is his calling card, and you can feel that he can at least be trusted to be honest with Americans in where he stands and what he believes.

Firstly, his voting record is consistent to the traditional conservative notion of fiscal responsibility. He has never voted to raise taxes, nor has he has ever voted for an unbalanced budget.

Secondly, his voting record is consistent to the traditonal conservative notion of small government. He voted against the USA Patriot Act, has condemned warrantless wiretapping, opposes eminent domain, he never votes for legislation unless the bill is expressly authorized by the Constitution, and has acknowledged that "the biggest threat to our privacy is the government."

And finally, his voting record is consistent to the traditional conservative notion of non-interventionism, while also having a strong military and national defense. He voted against the war in Iraq where almost the entire rest of the party voted the other way, but also has devoted a lifetime in his Texas community to honoring veterans and their families every step of the way. He has also served our country and has a six-point plan for border security and immigration reform.

*

In addition, Ron Paul is one of the cleanest representatives in Congress in terms of ethics. According to a report by Clean Up Washington, Ron Paul has the fourth highest percentage of contributions from small donors among all House members, and has accepted the seventh-lowest amount of PAC money of all House members in the same study. Also, according to OpenSecrets.org, Ron Paul has taken the least percentage of special interest money as compared to every other Republican candidate.

*

The point is, while I do hold my share of disagreements with him on some issues, I also vote for candidates based on their conviction and personal integrity, and Ron Paul is an individual who speaks with clarity and integrity, easily more so than any other presidential candidate from EITHER party (besides Dennis Kucinich, another candidate who I have some strong disagreements with but also is a candidate with integrity). I hold great respect for principled individuals like Paul, and despite certain disagreements, I believe his record, his experience and his ability to speak the truth are all incredible assets and THAT is what makes him appear more electable to me than all other GOP presidential candidates this election season.

I can honestly say that, if Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination and the GOP nominee is one of the four current front-runners, and Ron Paul runs a third-party candidacy, I will vote for Ron Paul because I truly believe he is a far more authentic candidate than either one of those five.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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75 posted 2007-11-08 05:16 PM


Guess who is doing damage control....


"This is just so irritating," Obama responded. "This was not the Pledge of Allegiance. This woman was singing the Star Spangled Banner. Now, I was taught by my grandfather that you put your hands over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance. The Star Spangled Banner, you sing. So that's what I did."


So now we go from his people saying..Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.
to Obama saying that. They can't even get their stories straight, it seems.

Anyone see Obama singing there? Anyone NOT see everyone but Obama with their hands over their hearts? For all of you that have responded here about Obama being his own man and that he's entitled not to follow tradition and do his own thing, he just shot you down. He would NEVER have disappointed his grandfather, now would he? He WOULD have followed  the tradition without that confusion between the Pledge and the Anthem.

Ya gotta smile....come on now  

Brad
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76 posted 2007-11-08 05:31 PM


You're kidding, right?

This thread has been one big joke from the start.

We've been smiling all the way through.

Balladeer
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77 posted 2007-11-08 05:35 PM


May as well continue, Brad

What is the proper procedure when the national anthem is played, you ask me?

THE UNITED STATES CODE
TITLE 36
CHAPTER 10
The “FLAG CODE”

§171. Conduct during playing The Star-Spangled Banner

During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.


Yes, Brad, it's as much of a joke as the countless ridiculous threads concerning  Bush over these past years. I don't recall any complaints from you then. Seems it only becomes ridiculous when it's aimed elsewhere.

Brad
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78 posted 2007-11-08 06:07 PM


Yeah, but all those threads regarding Bush's speaking ability were intended to be jokes.

Now, if you want to talk about the record.

Oh God, please say no, please say no!

We've been there, done that.

Brad
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79 posted 2007-11-08 06:13 PM


But now that I think about it,

Do you think any of this is important enough to change your vote or that it should be important enough to change your vote?

Do you think any of this would seriously hinder his ability to lead the country?

Or is it just another distraction?

Balladeer
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80 posted 2007-11-08 06:15 PM


...and there you have it, Brad. They're all jokes.

Just think of the fun anti-Bushers could have had here if it were Bush in that pic instead of Obama....a veritable field day, the only difference being that then it would have been front page news, complete with groups burning Bush photos in effigy, Boxer decrying the lack of patriotism in our leaders,Harry Reed proclaiming Bush unqualified to lead our troops, etc,etc,etc....all in the name of good fun, of course

Well, let's all laugh together....

Balladeer
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81 posted 2007-11-08 06:24 PM


Brad, what is NOT  a distraction? They are ALL distractions. bush getting drunk in college was a distraction. Screaming about the port sale to Dubai was a distraction. Politics are little more than distractions.

I will tell you one thing, though. IF I were a Democrat and IF I had to decide if I felt Obama were smart enough to lead the country and IF I had to decide between him and the other candidates and then saw this pic of everyone showing their respect in the proper way and him looking like he was bored with all the patriotic stuff, it would actually make me reconsider my views of his intelligence. It ain't smart....

Brad
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82 posted 2007-11-08 06:57 PM


Yes, those are distractions.

But the war, the state of the American people, the debt, the deficit, New Orleans, torture, etc. aren't.

I don't see it that way anyway.

(Uh, when I'm allowed off my high horse?)

Mistletoe Angel
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83 posted 2007-11-09 01:13 AM


As much as I stand by my original statement that what Obama was doing during that ceremony certainly makes you think and has a curious tone to it, things such as that aren't going to influence my vote, as they're ultimately insignificant compared to where they stand on the issues, how ethical the candidate is, what personal integrity the candidate has and what ideas and vision the candidate has for the country.

YouTube: Hillary Clinton Sings National Anthem: January 27th, 2007

YouTube: Dennis Hastert & The Star-Spangled Banner: September 11th, 2006

Look, I didn't start a thread here when Hillary Clinton sang the national anthem with questionable vocals, or when former House Speaker Dennis Hastert couldn't remember some of the words to the Star-Spangled Banner.

Both those instances were pretty embarrassing in some respects, but I would never think less of the candidate just because of those gaffes and/or quirks, nor would they influence my vote......especially when both these politicians are jokers as they are.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Balladeer
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84 posted 2007-11-09 01:23 AM


But the war, the state of the American people, the debt, the deficit, New Orleans, torture, etc. aren't.

So who has mentioned any of those things and what possible connection or relevance do they have with this thread?

Now, if you want to talk about the record.
Oh God, please say no, please say no!
We've been there, done that.


So why are you doing it? That desperate, Brad?

Brad
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85 posted 2007-11-09 02:18 AM


Desperate?

You've lost me.

If you want to talk about something substantive, be my guest.

This ain't it.



TomMark
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86 posted 2007-11-09 05:54 AM


So, Sir Balladeer, Obama as a public figure bahaved somehow silly and his explanation was sillier. You will not vote for him anyway even if he did hand-up.

But are you try to tell me that you don't vote him because  he did not put his hand to his heart? If he did, you would say that he had not heart( as your Title of this thread). If he indeed has a heart then you would say ( or I say )that his heart was a stone and without life.  You have many significant reasons for not voting for him. while The Hand-Heart Gate is not one of them on your list...

Do you want to say  that he is such an ignorant? or he did not take his country seriously? Or he did not love his country? or  he is a traitor?

or he is against constitution?


Balladeer
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87 posted 2007-11-09 05:23 PM


Ok, Brad. You confused me completely, which is not hard to do. We were speaking of distractions and comparing same and then you go into Katrina, torture, etc after pleading NOT to go into such things.

Not sure why you commented at all, since this is such a non-substantive thread.

TomMark, I have turned your reply over to a group of cryptologists. When they decipher it, I'll respond

Brad
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88 posted 2007-11-10 12:32 PM


I guess we're both confused here.

You said:

quote:
Politics are little more than distractions.


I don't think all issues in politics are mere distractions. Some of it is important and worth talking about.

I was just trying to give some examples.

As far as I know, I haven't talked about the picture or anything else in this thread. I responded to your idea of a joke.

But then . . .

Then I fell into it. I really am a sucker for these things.


TomMark
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89 posted 2007-11-10 02:48 AM


oh, dear sir Balladeer, you have such a scholar-ly way to say that you misunderstood me.

What I was trying to say was that how you worded Obama was same as others to Bush. Only you have a seriously sound reason.

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-10-2007 10:26 AM).]

hush
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90 posted 2007-11-11 01:46 AM


My brain hurts. I have continued to read this thread... and my brain... my poor aching brain...

The fact that anyone actually cares about this is killing me. Would you criticize someone for interlacing their fingers and folding their hands together in prayer while you  put your palms and fingers flat together? Does it make you mad when people tie their shoes the bunny-ear way because you do it the looping-around way?

And Mike, you apparently recognize you own pettiness when your defense is "Well, people do it to Bush..." People criticise Bush's policies on many of the things that Brad mentions... things that cause people to live or die, to flounder in poverty... those things are relevant. And in terms of Bushisms, yeah, there are plenty of jokes out there... because it's actually funny. This? I shrug my shoulders. Obama wasn't like hocking a loogie on the flag... he stood respectfully. Oh, but shoot... he was being respectful in a way you don't like... darn. Makes him stupid, right?

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91 posted 2007-11-11 09:56 AM


Actually, Hush, he wasn't following the code for conduct. Following that code is the way of showing respect. So no, he wasn't showing respect if he was aware of the code and for someone in his position, he should be aware of the code. So he has either shown himself as someone who does not respect the symbols of our nation, or does not agree with the codes for showing that respect and will do as he damn well pleases, or that he doesn't know the codes, which makes him uninformed of basic codes of conduct that every kindergarten kid used to know in this country, before the dumbing down of American kids by the public school system, that is. None of those possibilities put him in a good light, in my opinion.
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92 posted 2007-11-11 10:32 AM


Hush, as far as the actions (or inactions) of Obama goes, of course it's petty. That's one of my two points in this thread!

First, we have gone through 7 years of pettiness with regards to Democrats going after Bush for pettiness, things that have absolutely no idea with his actions or qualifications as president. Why? Because they have stopped at nothing to make every effort to throw whatever slurs they can come up with....be it his college drinking days, his reserve service record, his "photo ops" with the troops, etc etc etc. Have anything they've thrown against the wall ever amounted to anything? No,nyet, nada....but they keep going. As Joe Lieberman said two days ago, it appears that the Democratic party is interested in little more than repeated attacks on Bush instead of getting work done. So, for all that time, I've sat here, resding people taking these ridiculous jabs at Bush while others piled on with insults of their own....so now the table is turned. Petty? Oh, yes, but payback. Where were you when silly little attacks against Bush came out? Were you then saying stop the pettiness? All this stuff doesn't matter? No, and neither was anyone else. Yet, here, on the other side, all of a sudden it's unacceptable....too bad. Yes, we are speaking of petty and, even when Brad tries to inject torture, hurricanes and the like into it, the main topic is still the same.

The second point of the thread is that it was stupid. Why would a man running for president do that? To show he's his own man? He already  took that point away. You don't see a problem with that? That's fine. You take your son to a Boy Scout meeting. It's time to recite the Boy Scout oath. You notice that all the boys are reciting it but one. What do you think? More than that, you look and see the scoutmaster is looking around, with his hands at his sides, not up with the three fingers extended in the Boy Scout salute, and he's not reciting it, either! What do you think of HIM? Does any of this mean he's not a good guy? That he doesn't know how to scoutmaster? Nope, but it does show a lack of respect for the organization, the code, and the feelings of people watching him. Is that smart? Is that clever in some way or it just a wee bit dumb? If it's dumb on such a grand stage at a time he's looking for votes and running for president, is he too dumb to get your vote? He's gone from "I show respect with my actions" to "It wasn't the pledge, it was the anthem" when hubbub occurred. Flip-flopping already??????

Yes, the argument may be petty but the lack of intelligence show by him isn't and neither is the disrespect.

As Topo once sang, "Without our traditions, we are nothing more than fiddlers on the roof."

Huan Yi
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93 posted 2007-11-11 05:09 PM


.


So here we are
with the front runner
being a woman who accepts
a cheating husband,
(as our potential co-president),
and a man whose primary attribute,
offsetting all lack of experience,
is the color of  his skin.

Osamba must be quaking
in his boots . . .


.

Local Rebel
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94 posted 2007-11-11 06:31 PM


quote:

Actually, Hush, he wasn't following the code for conduct. Following that code is the way of showing respect. So no, he wasn't showing respect if he was aware of the code and for someone in his position, he should be aware of the code. So he has either shown himself as someone who does not respect the symbols of our nation, or does not agree with the codes for showing that respect and will do as he damn well pleases, or that he doesn't know the codes, which makes him uninformed of basic codes of conduct that every kindergarten kid used to know in this country, before the dumbing down of American kids by the public school system, that is. None of those possibilities put him in a good light, in my opinion.



Wow -- an argument that could substantively be applied to the entire Bush administration re: Torture.  or outing a CIA agent -- which is treason -- which, under the Constitution, is punishible by death.  

But, wow -- Obama seemingly failed to follow a protocol.


/pip/Forum6/HTML/001373.html

Balladeer
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95 posted 2007-11-11 06:39 PM


Thank you for not disappointing, LR...
TomMark
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96 posted 2007-11-11 06:42 PM


Dear Sir Balladeer, if Obama did put his hand to the place where his heart was, will you vote for him?

You will not because there are others things that you do not agree on. And I believe that those other things weigh more when you make your decision of vote.

Still this  is a good chance to grind teeth though. I say that Obama is stupid but Bush is rotten from inside out

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97 posted 2007-11-11 06:49 PM


Tom.....so? Does Bush being rotten make Obama any less stupid? This thread is about Obama and his actions. If you want to talk about Busy being rotten, which has nothing to do with Obama, start your own thread.

Obama also has nothing to do with waterboarding, nor does  Obama have anything to do with Katrina....but you would never know it with some of these replies.

Apparently responding to the subject of this thread is not possible so fingers have to point elsewhere to get some kind  of acrobatic justification....

TomMark
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98 posted 2007-11-11 07:01 PM


Dear Sir Balladeer

---"I see. Then Bush should be the standard by which candidates are judged? He would like that!!"---

See, You brought Bush here. So why couldn't I say something about him?

and --"Does Bush being rotten make Obama any less stupid? "

Yes, of course. Obviously there aren't smart ones out there so we want somebody less stupid than Bush.

relativity, relativety,  sir.

Ron
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99 posted 2007-11-11 07:03 PM


quote:
...but you would never know it with some of these replies.

Mike, you would also never know, from most of these replies, that Obama is suddenly being seen as stupid. Maybe he knows the minds of the American people better than you do?

Balladeer
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100 posted 2007-11-11 07:21 PM


Could be, Ron. I guess time will tell..
TomMark
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101 posted 2007-11-11 07:23 PM


Dear Sir Ron, your hidden teeth are quite sharp. Do yo mean that I am probably the 1% who really think that Obama's behveior is stupid while most American will take it as a trifle?

Do you hint that Obama is very smart guy and he knew that Most American would ignore this?

Now we need a pool.

Brad
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102 posted 2007-11-11 08:32 PM


Distractions, distractions.

I didn't even know there was an official flag code. (I guess it's one of those dumbing down things that Denise was talking about.) My parents taught to be respectful and never let the flag touch the ground -- so, yeah,it's a little disconcerting to see flag shorts or olympic athletes draping themselves in the flag.

Oh, and if I recall correctly, the only proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it. A touch of irony there.

But it's still all distraction.

Yes, I think the Flag code is a distraction. Far more interesting and important would be his view of the Federalist Papers, don't you think?

Anybody want to talk about those?


Balladeer
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103 posted 2007-11-11 08:43 PM


Sure, Brad....start a thread.
Local Rebel
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104 posted 2007-11-11 08:57 PM


quote:

Obama also has nothing to do with waterboarding, nor does  Obama have anything to do with Katrina....but you would never know it with some of these replies.

Apparently responding to the subject of this thread is not possible so fingers have to point elsewhere to get some kind  of acrobatic justification....



Not justification -- but one does have to pretzelize one's brain to accomodate the tortured logic that the topic of this thread is somehow substantive.

quote:

When I am this party’s nominee, my opponent will not be able to say that I voted for the war in Iraq ... And he will not be able to say that I waivered on something as fundamental as whether it is okay for America to torture because it is never okay. That's why I’m in it!

... I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century ... and I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says you matter to us, your future is our future, and our moment is now. America, our moment is now.

Our moment is now!

I don't want to spend the next year or the next four years refighting the same fights that we had in the 1990s. I don’t want to pit red America against blue America. I want to be the President of the United States of America.

And if those Republicans come at me with the same fear-mongering and swift-boating that they usually do, then I will take them head-on. Because I believe the American people are tired of fear, and tired of distractions…we can make this election not about fear, but about the future, and that will not be just a Democratic victory, that will be an American victory, a victory that America needs right now!

I am not in this race to fulfill some longheld ambitions or because I believe it's somehow owed to me. I never expected to be here. I always knew this journey was improbable. I am running in this race because of of what Dr. King called "the fierce urgency of now." Because I believe that there’s such a thing as being too late, and that hour is almost upon us

Barack Obama -- as quoted: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/



You want to say that Barack isn't patriotic when we have real issues that define our generation in history in front of us?  C'mon Mike.  You're the one pointing the finger away from the issues here.

Balladeer
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105 posted 2007-11-11 09:48 PM


Not going to work, reb.

Here's what I said to introduce the thread..

So, PIPsters, is it ridiculous or do symbols and placing one's hand over one's heart and reciting the pledge as a sign of respect actually mean something?

Obama doesn't think so...what say you?


I did not question Obama's patriotism. I questioned the stupidity of his actions in this instance and his disrespect to the flag and our traditions.

You can continue trying to branch off or you can even try to twist it around and claim I am but the thread was about Obama's conduct on that stage...not torture,not gitmo, not hurricanes, not whether Obama is patriotic or not, etc, etc, etc.

Continue with links about waterboarding or about Obama's philosophy if you likebut the question remains...were his actions dumb or not?

Local Rebel
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106 posted 2007-11-11 09:57 PM


quote:

Barack Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said he REFUSED TO NOT O NLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief????



Let's not forget the short-hand in your opening salvo Mike.  You aren't as interested in our opinion as you are in telling us that you think Barack Hussein Obama isn't American enough to be President.

After all, he has a funny sounding name and didn't put his hand over his heart.  

Shame on you Mike.

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107 posted 2007-11-11 10:21 PM


Aha...I see the confusion. My apologies, reb. The comment you just quoted was not my words. They came from the internet and I failed to give the link....I don't even remember where it came from. From it, I went to Scopes to verify it and pasted both of them together to introduce the thread. The sentence at the finale was the only portion that were my personal words.

If, after all these years, you think that I would be prejudiced toward a man because his middle name is hussein, I reckon we don't know each other very well at all.  

You aren't as interested in our opinion as you are in telling us that you think Barack  Hussein  Obama isn't American enough to be President.

Actually, I was interested in seeing if anyone WOULD give an honest opinion with regards to Obama's actions. It turned out about the way I expected. People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it. Noah was the only bright spotwith his reply.

Not American enough to be President? Where do you come up with that one?

Local Rebel
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108 posted 2007-11-11 10:57 PM


At a different point in time Mike I would probably have been able to detangle the multiple authorships but in my present condition I'm just not able to contextualize those subtleties and it's a real challenge to even put my own thoughts into a logical form, so, unfortunatly -- it's not only you that I don't know -- but my own mind.  So, apology accepted and my own offered.

quote:

Not American enough to be President? Where do you come up with that one?  



I come up with that one directly from the unknown author's words that I mistakenly attributed to you.

quote:

People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it.



What I don't think that you're getting is that we're directly addressing the issue Mike.  That the substance of ceremony is what the symbols represent.  It matters what 'America' the Flag represents -- without a government that is willing to uphold the ideals embodied in the Constitution -- it's just a peice of cloth -- and we find it odd that those who are so concerned about the ceremony aren't as concerned about the ideals.

  


TomMark
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109 posted 2007-11-11 11:11 PM


Dear Sir Balladeer,

---People who leaned toward the right said it was wrong and people leaning toward the left tried to change the subject without saying anything negative about it---

You can't be so serious. You are dividing  pipsters into opposite groups.

The code required three things,,standing, facing the flag and hand over heart. Obama did 66.6666666% right so why do you say that he is wrong?

People who do not like him, of course will make a big deal of it...and it makes a very good topic over the tea, too.

I love this thread.

hush
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since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
110 posted 2007-11-11 11:16 PM


Maybe I'm not traditional or respectful enough, but to me, rigidly following a "flag code" and expecting others to show the proper respect to a piece of cloth strikes me as a sort of patriotic idolatry. Yes, I understand that the flag symbolizes out country in a material way, but maybe it's just the secular way I was raised... ritualistic gestures seem not only empty, but homogenized and a pervasive, subversive way of expecting a certain amount of conformity... something I just don't value. I don't knock people for praying, whether it be to god or to uncle sam (and that is precisely what this whole hand-over-heart thing amounts to).. I just ask that people don't knockme for not praying.

Maybe it seems like I'm changing the subject... but why would I say someting negative about what I see as a non-issue? I have absolutely no opinion on where someone's hand goes during the pledge, or the national anthem, or whatever. I do however take issue and offense to the ridiculous attack on someone for not observing a silly, and, I'm sorry, essentially meaningless ritual. In fact, I have pretty much no strong feelings about the national anthem and slightly cool feelings toward the pledge... so I could care less if he respects those conventions anyway. I geuss, though, that it's wrong for someone to feel that way. I guess someone who wants to make a difference in our country, or to lead it, has to recite words learned by rote memorization with a smile on his face and a hand over his heart...

And in terms of where was my defense of Bush... most of the thing's he's criticised for, as I pointed out earlier, and pertinent. If someone criticises the war in Iraq, who, in honesty and good conscience and say it's silly, or a non-issue. People are dying. And though I may have my personal feelings on it, I have always maintained in conversations that Bush's prior alcohol issues, and the controversy a couple years ago with his daughter being busted for underage drinking... are his business... and in no way pertinent to his job.

Just as, by the way, Clinton's decision to stay with her husband despite his infidelity. Has absolutely nothing to do with her job and people who knock her for that reason should be ashamed of themselves.

Balladeer
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111 posted 2007-11-11 11:45 PM


In fact, I have pretty much no strong feelings about the national anthem and slightly cool feelings toward the pledge... so I could care less if he respects those conventions anyway.

Thanks for your clarification, hush. It's easier to understand why you would consider this thread silly then.

Balladeer
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112 posted 2007-11-12 12:06 PM


That the substance of ceremony is what the symbols represent.  It matters what 'America' the Flag represents --

The thread is not about the substance of ceremony, reb, nor is it  about what the symbols represent. It is about a time-worn tradition that we  have,one in which people running for President especially should honor, one in which every candidate there DID honor,with the exception of one. And why? To make some kind of point? No, that was the first reason given but quickly changed when he saw the number of hits on YouTube.

Silly? Sure...and senseless, showing bad judgement...not exactly great credentials for one pandering for votes to be President, I'd say.

Local Rebel
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113 posted 2007-11-12 01:26 AM


You can't give the substance of ceremony a backhand in one sentence Mike and then talk about reciting the pledge as 'time-honored' in the next sentence.

Why is it honored?

Why should we do it?

Why should a Presidential candidate 'especially' do it?

This is the problem that Theoconservatism has for me -- it wraps itself in the flag without embracing the Constitution.  It loves freedom but despises dissent.  It wants to forcibly spread democracy around the globe.  

It pledges allegiance to the Flag -- but not the Republic it represents -- instead -- it is loyal to an imperialist oligarchy that, for the past 6 years, has done everything imaginable to rise above the law.

What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion.

The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.  Our geography is just another spot on the sphere, our biology is the same.  Without the ideology of the Constitution -- America is just another nation-state trying to win.  Trying to gain advantage -- and is indistinguishible from any other society in history.

TomMark
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114 posted 2007-11-12 04:21 AM


"What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion."

LR, wonderful. right to the point.

And Dear sir Balladeer, you may say whatever you want but WE WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT MORE SIGNIFICANT THING THAN HAND OVER HEART, LIKE WAR ETC.   if you really want to talk about political figurine. Do you want this thread to be tabloid-ed?  

[This message has been edited by TomMark (11-12-2007 07:06 AM).]

Balladeer
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115 posted 2007-11-12 04:47 PM


Why is it honored?
Why should we do it?


It doesn't matter, LR, at least as far as this thread is concerned. The fact is that it IS honored and we DO do it.

Obama's failure to do it was not a protest movement. He was not trying to prove some kind of point. My bottom dollar says if he had a chance to go back, he WOULD do it.

Yes, America is just another nation-state trying to win but it is OUR nation-state. Perhaps we should just state that there is nothing special about us, that we are just a super-power in a long line of super-powers and our ideals and traditions carry little importance. Perhaps we should just look at our families and think that they are just families like millions of other families and there's nothing important about them, either....but we don't. Should we, or any other nation or civilization reach that point of apathy toward the ideals our nations represent, it will be a very sad day.

As far as your definition of theoconservatism, you are entitled to your views. Mine are exactly the opposite. Democrats have shown me nothing except that they are out for individual gain and power, even if the country suffers because of it. But that's all fodder for another thread...it HAS been fodder for other threads

Obama screwed up. If that's too hard to acknowlege, then so be it.

TomMark
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116 posted 2007-11-12 05:07 PM


Have a good evening, dear sir Balladeer.

I wonder why everyone here try to "misunderstand" you which made this thread  very interesting to read.

Balladeer
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117 posted 2007-11-12 05:49 PM


Story of my life, Tom...a misunderstood balladeer
Mistletoe Angel
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118 posted 2007-11-12 07:59 PM


I believe both Local Rebel and Balladeer are correct on their points over what many theoconservatives and Democratic activists do.

Regarding the former, I believe many neoconservatives in particular have exploited 9/11 time and time again as an excuse why we should be willing to give up or suspend some of our civil liberties in the purpose of fighting terrorism.

Take the USA Patriot Act, for instance. It is over 340 pages in length, and both Senators Russ Feingold and Patrick Leahy had commented they had amendments to offer for the final revision before it was first passed, yet it was rushed through both the House and Senate virtually overnight without offering Congress even time to READ that very legislation.

And what drove that through the full Senate with virtually NO debate. Pseudo-patriotism. During that time, and even for months and months well beyond then to this very day, these neoconservatives and GOP leadership members keep playing the trump card of fear, arguing that all their political opponents are soft on terrorism and such if they dare question anything from warrantless wiretapping to extraordinary rendition to suspending habeas corpus, etc.

The bottom line is, terrorism has always existed in one form or another, and our nation's history has been interpsersed with "desperate moments" and despite that happening in certain scenarios, we chose not to confront the obstacles through fear but rather through standing resolute, yet patient and cool as well on many occasions.

I've felt and still feel that the USA Patriot Act compromises our eagle-eye focus on the enemy, when you have such provisions like Section 215 allowing investigators to scrutinize library records unknowingly, or temporarily even allowing unwarranted break-ins that got individuals like Brandon Mayfield caught up in spirals of wrongful accusation, distracting us from the enemy in the whole process because of its overreach and the violation of freedom of association.

So, yes, I absolutely believe there are individuals in the GOP leadership and right-wing thinktanks who continue to use fear as fuel in driving their political templates and agendas, and while they wrap themselves in the flag tirelessly and ostensibly, they're all the same disgracing the Constitution and mocking dissent.

*

*

Michael is also right that there are Democratic activists who also exploit many situations to fulfill their own ends and means.

He pointed out the National Guard memos, for instance, prior to the 2004 presidential election. I myself condemned that being raised as a distraction during that campaign, regardless of how angry I was with the president otherwise, as I believed that was absolutely unnecessary and irrelevant to the other issues at stake then, equally as much as what the so-called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" did on John Kerry.

The same can also be said, I believe, with how pundits continue to mock the president for his malapropisms and accuse him of being an idiot and such. In terms of socialization, I too am inarticulate and my words don't come out phrased correctly sometimes, and I believe the president himself isn't stupid at all: he's just inarticulate and can't help that. That's just how he speaks.

Of course I disagree with Michael on some other things he has argued screams 100% opportunism, but he's certainly right on many points as well, and the Democratic Party leadership is no less immune to such exploitative tactics as the GOP leadership or activists from either party are.

*

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa

Local Rebel
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119 posted 2007-11-13 04:25 PM


quote:

It doesn't matter, LR, at least as far as this thread is concerned. The fact is that it IS honored and we DO do it.

Obama's failure to do it was not a protest movement. He was not trying to prove some kind of point. My bottom dollar says if he had a chance to go back, he WOULD do it.



First you say that offensive language that you didn't write doesn't have anything to do with the thread -- but, for some reason you felt compelled to pass them on to us -- not for discussion -- just to pass them on...

Then you quoted from the article;

quote:

Such an act would be consistent with Senator Obama's response when he was asked in October 2007 interviews about his not wearing a U.S. flag pin in his lapel, a gesture which he said he had abandoned in favor of actions he considered more meaningfully patriotic:
The truth is that right after 9/11 I had a pin. Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead I'm gonna try to tell the American people what I believe what will make this country great and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism

Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.



But.  That isn't germane to the thread either.  So why did you post it at all?  You could have merely asked your final question and posted the picture.

The genie is out of the bottle Mike -- when the game doesn't go your way you can't pick up the marbles and just go home

quote:

Yes, America is just another nation-state trying to win but it is OUR nation-state. Perhaps we should just state that there is nothing special about us, that we are just a super-power in a long line of super-powers and our ideals and traditions carry little importance. Perhaps we should just look at our families and think that they are just families like millions of other families and there's nothing important about them, either....but we don't. Should we, or any other nation or civilization reach that point of apathy toward the ideals our nations represent, it will be a very sad day.



There is probably a clause in the Geneva Convention against torturing logic that way Mike.  You can't start the paragraph with Jingoism in one hand and then end it with the 'ideals' our nation represents (which is what the Flag, the Pledge, and saluting over the heart are all about anyway) in the other.

It's either our nation right or wrong -- or -- it's our ideals regardless of nationality.

But, I don't think you actually got what I wrote:

quote:

What remains silly and senseless is that what gets under your skin is a hand gesture and not water torture, an illegal war, the needless deaths of thousands of American soldiers, not to mention the laundry list of civil offenses and economic disaster that has been bearing down on us in slow motion.

The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.  Our geography is just another spot on the sphere, our biology is the same.  Without the ideology of the Constitution -- America is just another nation-state trying to win.  Trying to gain advantage -- and is indistinguishible from any other society in history.  



I feel like Chris Matthews being challenged to a duel here -- you're just not listening to anything that's being said Senator -- so why waste my time?


hush
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since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
120 posted 2007-11-15 12:39 PM


Mike- does somebody have to have strong feelings about rituals such as the Pledge and the National Anthem in order to have strong feelings about their country?

LR asks why are these symbols important, and why do we honor them... which you disregard. What's the point of honoring something if the reason to do so is irrelevant? It seems to me that the answer is to pay lip service.

I don't really care that the Ohio state bird is the Cardinal or that the state tree is the Buckeye... but it's still my state and I'll always love it regardless... Similarly, while the national anthem doesn't really stir strong emotions in me and I don't really believe that our nation is "under god," it is still my country, and I love that it allows me the freedom to say what I'm saying right now... does that make me (or Obama, who may or may not have had some similar reason for his action) any less patriotic?

Huan Yi
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121 posted 2007-11-15 02:21 PM


.


"does that make me"

Run for President, (and as such
commander of the armed forces),
and we'll find out.

...........

How gladly with proper words
the soldier dies if he must
or lives on the bread of faithful speech.

Wallace Stevens
.

Balladeer
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122 posted 2007-11-15 05:38 PM


when the game doesn't go your way you can't pick up the marbles and just go home.

Why, thank you, LR, but as you can see happily, I'm still around. Can't pick up the marbles, though, since I lost them years ago. Thanks for the kind words.

    Regarding the hand-over-heart controversy, an Obama campaign spokesperson said:
    Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. In no way was he making any sort of statement, and any suggestion to the contrary is ridiculous.


That is not germain to the thread? Really? First it shows that Obama's crew tried to rationalize it with a sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't reply and then afterwards, when someone told Obama how many hits it was getting online, he came out with a "No,it wasn't the creed - it was the anthem" reply, negating what his staff had tried to justify it with......just more flip-flopping, that's all.

But, I don't think you actually got what I wrote: The symbols, the ceremonies, the institutions, the traditions, have no meaning without meaning.

Sure, I got that, LR, and responded accordingly. The thread is not about these things having meaning. This is not about a man challenging the meaning of anything, by his own admission. The thread is not about "Our oath, our anthem, our traditions - do they have meaning?" The thread is about one man not respecting those meaningful or meaningless traditions that everyone else there respected in our traditional way. That's all. period. Se acabo. Going into meanings is as immaterial as bringing up torture.

I feel like Chris Matthews being challenged to a duel here -  Now that's interesting...Chris Matthews, the bullet-firing inquisitor who doesn't even wait for an answer before going off with another question or, when given a response he doesn't like, makes sure to speak louder than the other person and drown him out so no one will notice he has moved on to another topic. You think I don't answer you? When I ask you a simple question, I get a dozen links fired at me with a "the answer is there - find it" type of response


Mike- does somebody have to have strong feelings about rituals such as the Pledge and the National Anthem in order to have strong feelings about their country?

Absolutely not, hush, and I would never question your, or anyone else's feelings toward the country based on such a response. We are not talking about that here, however. As I showed earlier, Obama did not fail to act because he was making a statement or even had lukewarm feelings toward the tradition.....he just thought it was the anthem, basically a silly response since the same tradition holds true for both.

One does not have to have strong feelings toward a tradition to honor it. One can simply do it by respecting the beliefs of others. If you went to a friend's house for dinner who happened to be catholic, when the time came to bow one's head for a moment of silence before the meal, would you do it or would you just look around the room, or maybe ask where the potatoes were? I think you would respect their tradition. Would that mean you were then religious and believed in God? No, it would mean you were being considerate enough to honor your friend. Obama was on stage, in front of many people and other political candidates, a man running for President, and he chose not to show this same respect. How smart can a man be to do that? Does his election crew have any hair left or have they pulled it all out?


LR asks why are these symbols important, and why do we honor them... which you disregard.

Disregarded for the same reason I just explained. The importance of the symbols doesn't matter in the slightest here. The disregard for those who DO respect the importance does, especially when those people number a vast majority of American.

If I reach out my hand to shake yours in friendship, it's not necessary to know that the tradition began as a way to show that there were no weapons concealed in the hand and was therefore a sign of friendship. It's enough to know that we regard it as a symbol of friendship. That doesn't mean you have to participate. Perhaps you don't like touching other people's hands (who knows where they might have been! ) or maybe you just don't like the tradition. That's fine. Howard Hughes never shook anyone's hand, either. But he was consistent. It wasn't a "sometimes I do and sometimes I don't" scenario.

This thread, hush, was simply about was it right (or smart) for Obama to not respect or honor our traditions while on the public stage, asking for votes to be President?  Nothing to do with what the symbols represent, what our country represents, how waterboarding works, how bad katrina was....etc, etc, etc. and I apologize if either you or LR are irritated because I won't go down those roads but that's the ways it is.

I shall now resume the never-ending search for those darn marbles.....

Essorant
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123 posted 2007-11-15 08:35 PM




If you went to a friend's house for dinner who happened to be catholic, when the time came to bow one's head for a moment of silence before the meal, would you do it or would you just look around the room, or maybe ask where the potatoes were? I think you would respect their tradition.


Good point Balladeer.  


Ron
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124 posted 2007-11-15 09:21 PM


And if they got down on the floor to face Mecca? Would you join them on their rugs?

There's a fine line between showing respect and being a hypocrite, I think. Which has nothing at all to do with this thread and, I hope, shows that the analogy also has nothing to do with this thread. We're not talking about beliefs, after all, which Mike has made very clear by refusing to consider meanings. We're talking about traditions and "fitting in" with everyone else.

Balladeer
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125 posted 2007-11-16 01:36 AM


Yes, Ron, we're talking about traditions and respect.

Actually, Ron, if I were invited to a Muslim dinner and was told it would be expected of me to bow down on the rug at the appropriate time, and I accepted the invitation, I would do so out of respect.

Obama is not asked to go out of his way to accept the traditions of a foreign religion or even a foreign country. He's expected to honor the traditions of the very country he claims to want to lead. Call that unimportant or immaterial if you like. Many people do not see it that way...

Essorant
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126 posted 2007-11-16 02:44 AM


I agree with Balladeer.  If one involves himself in a special occasion he ought to follow the respectful traditions thereof.  You can't say a good man shows good manners when he won't simply put his hand over his heart in a token of respect that belongs to the special occasion.



rwood
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127 posted 2007-11-16 05:30 AM


That's true Ess~ But you can't say the occasion has any heart in respect for Which it Stands if everyone isn't concerned with anything but looking mannerly.

Sometimes, being passive aggressively tears down a higher or deeper truth. And since many are actually listening to the words, analyzing them, and finding a conviction toward that truth, perhaps the manner of apathy isn't belonging to a man toward the flag, but to a people who see nothing but the flag and hold it up on occasion, replete of themselves, not patriotism.



hush
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128 posted 2007-11-16 09:32 AM


'when the time came to bow one's head for a moment of silence before the meal, would you do it or would you just look around the room, or maybe ask where the potatoes were?'

This actually reminds me of a really funny moment (I guess if by funny, I mean awkward...) We went out to eat with a religious couple and as our food hit the table, my fiance and I (as usual) dug in... when we looked up, the other couple was quietly watching us... and the guy quietly said "We'd like to say grace.'

Heh. Oops.

Would I bow my head? Sure. Would I clasp my hands or say Amen? No. And I can attest from personal experience that silence generated by the lack of that one simple word is often louder than everyone else's "amen" together.

So what is your problem, Mike? First you say its his disrespect for the tradition... but you fail to show why respecting the tradition is important. Its existence is its own defense... because it is a tradition, someone should do it. The end.

Then you say it's his inconsistency... which is fine, I guess... but that's like saying I'm inconsistent because today I like hot dogs and tomorrow I like hamburgers. In the long run... does this one action really matter? If this is the biggest thing there is to nail on the guy (and I don't know, I haven't really researched the candidates all that thoroughly yet) but if it is... then he's got my vote.

Not A Poet
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129 posted 2007-11-16 11:39 AM


Just to add a bit of officialness:
quote:
U.S. Code Title 36, Chapter 10 Section 171
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

This is "the law of the land," federal law concerning flag etiquette. There is no penalty provided for failure to comply but it is still law. Depending on your point of view, it may be a very important law, particularly when applied to one who aspires to be the leader of the nation. Some of the antics of other presidents notwithstanding, should we not hold a presidential hopeful (indeed all political hopefuls) to a somewhat higher patriotic standard than plain old Joe Blow who never hopes to lead anything? I can't imagine how anyone could seriously consider voting for a candidate who holds our patriotic traditions, not to mention the law, in such low regard. As reluctant as I may be to admit it, I would vote first for Hillary. Now I'm gonna be

Balladeer
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130 posted 2007-11-16 03:26 PM


So what is your problem, Mike?

Actually, hush, I wasn't aware I had one

but you fail to show why respecting the tradition is important.

Well, you have me there. I can honestly say I have no answer to that comment. I can say I would hate to live in a country that had no national traditions. I can say that millions of people died defending that piece of red, white and blue cloth  and I can say that respecting their sacrifices which have allowed us to live in a free country and honoring their memory in a respectful, traditional  way is a small thing to ask.....but, to try to convince someone why traditions are important, I cannot do.....nor would I even try. Watch Fiddler on the Roof a few times. Maybe you'll get the idea.

but that's like saying I'm inconsistent because today I like hot dogs and tomorrow I like hamburgers. In the long run... does this one action really matter?

You are comparing respecting or not respecting the anthem or pledge in our traditional manner to choosing hot dogs or burgers????Ok, I'll bite. Let's go to the handshake. It is a traditional form of friendly greeting. You and I meet. We extend our hands in a handshake. Tomorrow we meet again and you extend your hand but I don't. What's going through your mind, standing there with your hand out, as I ignore it? Happy thoughts? The next day we meet and I stick out my hand which you take, reservedly. Perhaps you think that maybe I had had a bad day the day before and was distracted. No problem. Next day we meet againand  again I ignore your extended hand.  Tell me that the inconsistency would not bother you. Tell me that it's nothing different that ordering hamburgers or hot dogs. Tell me that you wouldn't eventually scream, "Either shake hands with me or don't, moron!!!!" LOL!

I would be willing to guess that a large percentage of the American people want the trait of consistency in their President. Apparently the fellow can't even be consistent about honoring our patriotic traditions. Not a great start, I;d say...

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