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Balladeer
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0 posted 10-24-2007 04:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

“One reason why we have the fires in California is global warming,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters Tuesday, stressing the need to pass the Democrats’ comprehensive energy package.

Two men have been arrested on the suspicion of arson in setting California fires. Charlie Global and Sam Warning, perhaps?

Barbara Boxer claims that we would have had more resources to fight the fire if so much hadn't been sent to Iraq. The barrage has already started in the finger-pointing game. They couldn't even wait for the flames to die down.
Huan Yi
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1 posted 10-24-2007 08:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

California burned in 69
as well.  That much I know.


.
Huan Yi
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2 posted 10-24-2007 09:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304623,00.html


“AN DIEGO  —  A major wildfire that has scorched thousands of acres and destroyed hundreds of homes in Southern California has been declared an arson, according to Orange County law enforcement and FBI officials said on Wednesday.”

It was  Bush.
What’s the mystery?
Go to the White House
And read him his rights,
(as if he deserves any).


.
LeeJ
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3 posted 10-24-2007 09:24 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

it is against the law to undercut any forest area in CA...from what I understand...I was told by my brother in law, staunch republican, that the liberals passed this law.  

Up north here, we don't only cut out underbrush, but we also have controled fires...and fire lines cut through our forests...which helps fight fires...and also, clears brush, promoting new growth for creatures that cannot reach so high...

Remember the man they showed on TV who stayed behind and kept spraying down his home...well, he cut out a circumfrance of brush around his home, and that is what saved his home.

Just my 2 cents....and somehow I know posting on here again is going to get me hammered big time....it always does...hehe

ok, I'm far enough back, go ahead and throw those rottin tomatoes now....

whap...well, almost missed me...
Brad
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4 posted 10-24-2007 10:14 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Forest?

Brad
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5 posted 10-25-2007 01:08 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Well, I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine. 12 fires from San Diego to Lake Arrowhead, multiple causes, 80 mph winds, beetle infestation in the L. Arrowhead forest (Yes, there is a forest there) and who knows what else.

A million people were evacuated.

Finger point all you want, this isn't Katrina. A million people were evacuated. The government, amazingly enough, seems to be doing all it can right now. How does one prepare for fires in an 80 mile an hour wind?

It's not a liberal thing, it's not a conservative thing, it's a California thing.

Mistletoe Angel
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6 posted 10-25-2007 02:22 AM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I absolutely agree, Michael.

Look, this isn't another Katrina we're talking about. In any period of intense drought, inevitably you're going to have these sorts of natural disasters, and tragically California unfortunately just happens to have over a dozen separate fires simultaneously occurring at once, making this all the more anguishing.

We have to accept that there's some thing that are beyond any government's control, and Santa Ana winds, dust bowls and unprecedented avocado freezes like the state suffered early this year are just three of a long list of them.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
jbouder
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7 posted 10-25-2007 11:41 AM       View Profile for jbouder   Email jbouder   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for jbouder

Brad is right about the winds.  I lived in Orange County during the Laguna and Malibu wild fires of '93.  The Santa Ana winds are strong, hot, and decidedly not humid (about 20%).  The metropolitan areas were never at much risk then (as I doubt they are now).  But the Southern California sprawl has resulted in numerous housing developments built in areas that are naturally vulnerable to wild fires.

In this case, it seems the blame rests on the shoulders of the arsonist.  Camp fires, cigarettes thrown from cars, and disabled vehicles pulled off the side of the roads can all set these things off, though.

Jim
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8 posted 10-25-2007 02:00 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

The real mystery though is how Harry Reid and Barbara Boxer determined that George Bush made the arsonists start those fires.
Balladeer
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9 posted 10-25-2007 02:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

His brain was affected by global warming???
Ron
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10 posted 10-25-2007 02:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Harry Reid is wrong. Idiotically so. Barbara Boxer, on the other hand, is probably right, though the same thing can be said about the space program, cancer research, and the school lunch program. I suspect we all agree that resources are being wasted, we just don't all agree on what is waste and what is necessary.

I think it's a crying shame that anyone would use a tragedy like the California wildfires to make a political point. It's reprehensible. The irony, of course, is that if we call them on it to make our own political point, aren't we doing much the same thing?


Balladeer
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11 posted 10-25-2007 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

in a word....no. Actions and reactions are not the same.


and Barbara Boxer is not right. It wasa on the news today that there are over 150,000 reservists ready to assist in California. 70,000 have been called up. There is no shortage.
Huan Yi
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12 posted 10-25-2007 04:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Sadly you can expect arson now to be an annual event.

.


Mistletoe Angel
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13 posted 10-25-2007 07:09 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Speaking of fanning the flames, another old friend of ours (of former Asian tsunami fame) has joined the game, Junk Science Guru Steven Milloy.

Milloy's press agent at Advocacy Ink offered him a press release, where he said the following:

*

"There's no evidence that man-made climate change is playing any role whatsoever in the current Western forest fire season. Poor timber management practices and drought conditions are the primary causes. Current drought conditions are within the range of natural variation. We need to determine what the best forest management practices are for different weather conditions rather than trying to manage the weather to suit poor forest management practices."

*

Apparently Milloy has overlooked the fact that the breadth of southern California is not made up of old-growth redwood sentinels like in parts of northern California, but rather vast expanses of chaparral scrubland.

Talk about failing to tell the forest from the trees in this instance!

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Huan Yi
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14 posted 10-25-2007 08:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"Apparently Milloy has overlooked the fact that the breadth of southern California is not made up of old-growth redwood sentinels like in parts of northern California, but rather vast expanses of chaparral scrubland"


Somebody deliberately set a fire.
Overlook that.


.
LeeJ
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15 posted 10-26-2007 11:37 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Yes Brad, Forests...we have forests up here in Pennsylvania, & I was explaining the essential purpose of cleaning, or controlled burns.  And I do know, that you can't fight the forces of nature, like the Santa Anna winds...not to mention the dry conditions...and all the other forces which contribute.  

And, I believe in the future, there may be more to come that may deem this more then a natural cause...but more so, caused by arsens....the authorites shot one man who they caught trying to set a fire in the vicinity and he tried to flee, and they also saw others starting the fire, is what I heard....and no...I don't have any information about this off of any web sites, as it may NOT be true?  Time will tell....I suppose...but regardless a henous crime...and event...  very very sad.

well, I'm back, and here IS some news.
http://www.the2012apocalypse.com/index.php?blog=2&title=domestic_terrorism_california_arson_fire&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1915571/posts
http://stormwarning.moonagewebdream.com/index.php/2007/10/23/southern-california-fires-natural-disaster-not-terrorism/
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2007/10/22/california-fire-battallion-chief-whoever-did-this-knew-what-they-were-doing/


but it seems to me, that the media is trying to surpress this speculation...?


Mistletoe Angel
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16 posted 10-26-2007 02:36 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

The account I've heard primarily thus far is that there are two individuals suspected of arson, with a third shot by police who apparently may have been trying to set off a fire and tried fleeing the scene. So I don't think this angle of the story is being suppressed.

YouTube: Fox News Suggests al-Qaeda Started California Wildfires: October 25, 2007

I even heard a laughable claim (well, currently, anyway, in that all the media coverage is probably giving al-Qaeda more new ideas now) on Fox News that al-Qaeda was behind these particular fires: basing their claims on a FBI memo that was first reported July 11, 2003 in the Arizona Republic, where agents in Denver detailed an al Qaeda detainee's discussion of a plot to set forest fires in the states of Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Utah, although investigators couldn't determine whether the detainee was telling the truth, and his plot did not include setting fires in California.

Despite the memo being over four years old, however, some pundits at Fox News have presented this as something that has been "popping up this morning" and came up just this week.

Despite this claim being effortlessly discredited, Fox News continues to fan these flames since the day they first reported this early this week; fanning the flames of fear and sensationalism.

Did a few heartless, pitiful idiots likely start these fires? Yes, it certainly appears to be the case. But by the shape of things, these guys weren't terrorists (their actions can certainly be considered terror but they weren't terrorists by profession).........they're just idiots.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
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17 posted 10-26-2007 04:00 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... in a word....no. Actions and reactions are not the same.

LOL. No, Mike, they're certainly not. Apples and oranges are not the same, either. So?

Everyone using this tragedy to make political points is reacting to something else. Everyone using this tragedy to make political points is doing so through actions. Everyone. Any distinctions, in my opinion, are going to make very little difference to those living through this horrible disaster.

quote:
Somebody deliberately set a fire.
Overlook that.

So?

I lived in Southern California -- including five years in San Diego and eight in Laguna Hills -- for twenty years and while there "might" have been a year or two without annual fires, I honestly don't remember any. There is always a fire in SC this time of year, usually multiple fires before the season ends. Some are big, some are small, some are extremely rural, and yea, a few are extremely urban, but fires are as endemic as the dry brush that fuels them and the Santa Ana winds that drive them. This year is clearly one of the worst in recent history. But how it started isn't what makes it the worst.


Brad
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18 posted 10-26-2007 06:00 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Yes Brad, Forests...we have forests up here in Pennsylvania, & I was explaining the essential purpose of cleaning, or controlled burns.  And I do know, that you can't fight the forces of nature, like the Santa Anna winds...not to mention the dry conditions...and all the other forces which contribute.


Fair enough. I misunderstood your post. To me, it sounded self-righteous without realizing that the conditions in S.C. are very different from that of Pennsylvania. Sorry, but my buddy and I were laughing (in that strained, somewhat conflicted, throat constricted way) when we talked about the size of a fire break that could stop a fire in an 80 mph wind.

Noah pointed out the same thing. I don't know, maybe 'timber' and 'forest' are govenment terms that don't mean what we, the rest of us, think they mean. But at the very least, it shows that one monolithic national policy (or even one state policy given the size of Califonia) is not doable in the varied geographic regions of our country.

quote:
And, I believe in the future, there may be more to come that may deem this more then a natural cause...but more so, caused by arsens....the authorites shot one man who they caught trying to set a fire in the vicinity and he tried to flee, and they also saw others starting the fire, is what I heard....and no...I don't have any information about this off of any web sites, as it may NOT be true?  Time will tell....I suppose...but regardless a henous crime...and event...  very very sad.


Reading those links, I hear that strained laughter again. Fires in Southern California? A terrorist act? Even if it were true, it would be a dumb move. It is a tragedy (and one that is personal for many of us), but it does not inspire terror, it inspires action.

----------------

And it is personal and it is tragic. My family is safe but a high school friend lost everything he owned. He is recently remarried and she is three months pregnant. It becomes even more personal when my buddy, the one I talked to on the phone, explained that the couple met at our 20-year high school reunion (I didn't go for obvious reasons).

I know them both. strained
Balladeer
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19 posted 10-27-2007 10:13 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL. No, Mike, they're certainly not. Apples and oranges are not the same, either. So?

LOL back atcha, Ron. So you say, then, that if someone punches you in the face and you hit back, then you are just as wrong as the person who punched you first, since you both punched. This is the same old argument people use when comparing those apples to oranges. "Don't do this in retaliation because that makes you as bad as them". Mule muffins. Don't fire a pistol over a prisoner with information that will save your company's lives because that makes you as bad as the terrorists who chop off heads with machetes.

The Democrats for years now have been going out if their way at every opportunity to get Bush. To point out how ridiculous they have become in their efforts makes me as bad as they are? Ok, fine with me. That is my biggest argument with the Republican party. They allow all of these assertions and accusations that they could easily blow out of the water in many circumstances and they say nothing, which is detrimental to them and adventageous to the democrats. I can be bad for the 5 or 6 people here on PIP who read this. They are bad on newspaper headlines that go around the world.

Don't hit me when I smack you because you will be as bad as I am? I can live with that...
Ron
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20 posted 10-27-2007 11:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So you say, then, that if someone punches you in the face and you hit back, then you are just as wrong as the person who punched you first, since you both punched.

Why did they hit you, Mike? To take your lunch money? Because they didn't like the look on your face? Just because they could and get away with it?

If you hit them for exactly the same reason, then yea, I think you're just as bad as they are. Don't you?
Balladeer
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21 posted 10-27-2007 11:47 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

even courts recognize cause and effect, Ron, not to mention physics.

I agree it would be very convenient for democrats to say "We can say whatever we want to by way of criticism and you can't criticize us for doing so because that will make you as bad as we are"...but that dog don't hunt in my neck of the woods.

Whatever they can come up with, they do - from the global warming comment to the not enough planes in the air (due to 80 mph winds) to the lack of reservists (of which there were plenty)...no matter how ridiculous, which this item certainly is. To have their idiotic behavior extend to human disasters is repulsive. If you say that exposing their intent and the ludicracy of their attempts is wrong? Well, shame on me, then

Every time they do it, I will try to expose it. If they didn't do it, there would be nothing to expose. That makes me bad? So be it...
Grinch
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22 posted 10-27-2007 12:17 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
“One reason why we have the fires in California is global warming,”


Apart from the fact that the words fire and warming are vaguely connected there’s no evidence I know of to link Californian bush fires with global warming, so I’d have to say this statement isn’t all that helpful.

quote:
we would have had more resources to fight the fire if so much hadn't been sent to Iraq


This statement has more validity; it’s fairly obvious that without Iraq more resources would be available the obvious question though has to be whether the extra resources would have made any difference.

The question of how the fires started, at least to me, seems a moot point, history shows that fires happen in California on a regular basis either started by accident, by act of nature or maliciously. Unless you can honestly say that the fires wouldn’t have happened unless started deliberately how they started has to be secondary to the question of why they were so devastating. I’d be more interested, for instance, to hear about what steps had been taken and what measures have been put into place to minimise the effects given the past history. In that respect the fires and Katrina share at least one important similarity and lesson that can be learned, was everything done that could have been done to minimise the devastation.

If it can be determined that more could have been done the next question would have to be should it have been done, if the answer to that is yes then the person or persons responsible for not doing what should have been done have to be held accountable. How far up that accountability goes is arguable, all the way to the top is one suggested view.

Mistletoe Angel
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23 posted 10-27-2007 03:53 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
That is my biggest argument with the Republican party. They allow all of these assertions and accusations that they could easily blow out of the water in many circumstances and they say nothing, which is detrimental to them and adventageous to the democrats.


And it's statements like that which expose your Achilles' heel: leading 5 out of 6 readers here to believe you're either an official spokesperson or operative on the Republican National Committee fundroll or a substitute air host to Rush Limbaugh when he has the day off!

Look, aside from the unnecessary sweeping generalizations and straw mans you make suggesting ALL Democrats are behind such shenanigans, I absolutely agree with you that Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and several others have resorted to unnecessary political escapades during this particular tragedy, and I believe that's highly unfortunate and you make convincing points on this particular headline.

Yet, when I reflect on your history of commentary here over the past 4 1/2 years, quite often it strikes me that while you go out and dig up Democratic dirt (sometimes responsibly and thoughtfully, I might add) you also make yourself appear as though you're deifying the GOP or assuming it's the Democrat's fault whenever they are placed in an unfavorable light, even if it's obviously their own corruption or incompetence and they only have themselves to blame for it.

Several times, in the past, you've argued that the Republicans only resort to finger-pointing as a RESPONSE to the Democrats doing so, making it seem as though the GOP has NOT ONCE historically resorted to finger-pointing first in a particular incident. It's statements like that that dampen your credibility, even when your criticisms of the Democratic Party make absolute sense.

Passions In Poetry: The Alley: "My Wish..."

What's more, if you were a political analyst on a television network, do you not see how something you said in June of last year would spark major outrage: when you said regarding questionings of the money-tracking program (which I myself believe is necessary along with a vast majority of Americans, as long as it is done the legal way with a warrant): "My wish is that these Democrats and the New York Times staff be in the next place that the terrorists bomb."

*

I bring these things up not to force you into the hot seat really, but rather to make you think about how you can make your criticisms and indictments of the Democratic Party establishment all the more convincing to readers beyond the choir's orchestral pit, by moderating your language more and focusing on the particular offenders rather than resorting to straw mans among other things. Because it's examples like I've stated above where, regardless of how good a point you may bring up, ultimately only hurts your credibility.

*

With my 24th birthday tomorrow, it's times like these you are especially reflective on things, where you see both how you've matured and also recognize there's far more maturing to come. I've reflected on much of what I've said here over the past 4 1/2 years, and there are some things I've said here that I regret and some statements I retract, particularly when I accused President Bush of being a war criminal in previous anti-war threads. I retract those sort of statements, as I knew little about politics then and now recognize that there have been neoconservatives who had planned for this war well in advance, and if Bush was guilty of anything in particular, it was for being clueless about the scheme of things. But he's not a war criminal.

I believe my Achilles' heel is that often I let my emotions get the best of me, and sometimes I say things that are not quite rational. Make no mistake that my condemnation and outrage toward this war has been, and continues to be most real and authentic.......but sometimes I've let the emotions get the best of me and I've said some things I don't actually believe are the case, like the aforementioned example. I'm still working on moderating my feelings to this day, and while I believe I've gotten better at that, there's still more maturing to go on my part.

*

So, I'm constantly a work in progress, as are every one of us here, and the more I've learned about logical fallacies in my classes, the more I've been conscious about them when making arguments, where I don't doubt that some STILL slip past me even when I don't mean it. That's why, when I am criticizing a particular individual, group, organization, etc. from a particular party, I am specific in who I'm criticizing; where I don't say "the GOP" or "the Democrats" collectively but rather address the offenders by specific names, or when I do believe most individuals from one party are standing behind a position I don't agree with, I would say "the GOP" or "the Democrats", but place in parentheses next to it a list of the exceptions, like I have in threads about the few Republicans who have approved the SCHIP expansion, or approved of a phased timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, etc.

It is in my honest opinion that you resort needlessly and frequently to sweeping generalizations in your arguments, arguing in things along the line of "the Democrats" believe in defeat, or "the Democrats" believe in keeping Christmas out of public squares, etc. In this instance, without question Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi have resorted to needless finger-pointing and politicization of one of the worst natural disasters in recent American history. But you're speaking as though ALL Democrats are behaving just this way, when I certainly haven't heard my congressman, Earl Blumenauer, say anything remotely like what Reid or Pelosi has said, or dozens other representatives for that matter.

While I indeed hold some strong opinions regarding the GOP myself, particularly in that they are fiscally irresponsible themselves in that they have let their guard down along with many Democrats in borrowing more and more money from foreign investors like China and Japan to simultaneously pay for a war in Iraq, making tax cuts permanent, continuing the reconstruction of infrastructure along the Gulf Coast and renewing essential domestic programs, I don't flat out say "the GOP's all about borrowing and spending". There are some Republicans, in fact, who continue to live up to the core conservative principles of fiscal responsibility, particularly Ron Paul, Tom Coburn and some other libertarian-leaning Republicans in the House. I just argue that the GOP leadership has become weak on fiscal responsibility overall.

*

The bottom line is, I'm not a fan of either party and believe both parties are failing us in many respects. All the same, I believe evaluating our parties in shades of black and white is also irresponsible, and while I believe the Democratic party establishment is out-of-touch with Americans on issues like immigration, faith and gun rights, I certainly also don't believe they're SO bad they collectively want the terrorists to win, or want us to lose in Iraq on purpose collectively.........just as I believe while the GOP is out of touch with Americans on issues like health insurance, foreign policy and protection of our liberties, I certainly also don't believe they don't give a damn about low-income children or that they want our Constitution destroyed (which believe it or not, some far-left and far-right pundits argue just what I said that I 110% disagree with)

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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24 posted 10-27-2007 05:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Noah, I agree completely. One sometimes forgets how another will interpret one's words. When I say "the Democrats", I mean the leaders of the Democratic party. My references are to the people I name - Pelosi, Boxer, Gore, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, Hillary, Murtha and the rest of that motley crew. I assume that readers know that. If you take my words to mean ALL democrats then I have explained it poorly or you have interpreted it in the wrong way. I do not believe in the general democrat philosophy - more government and more taxes - but political parties are just like races or religions. There are good and bad in all of them. I would certainly harbor no ill feelings towards anyone just because they happen to be democrats  and I hope you don't take it that way in the future.
 
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