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Passions in Poetry

Way to go, Nancy....

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Balladeer
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0 posted 10-21-2007 06:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Nancy Pelosi's pledge of a new direction took a detour when she fumbled an Armenian genocide resolution and raised questions about her leadership as the highest ranking member of the U.S. Congress.
Pelosi, 67, speaker of the House of Representatives and next in line to the presidency after the vice president, swore she would push the controversial resolution to a vote, then blinked when some fellow Democrats withdrew their support in the face of furious reaction from Turkey.

President George W. Bush warned the symbolic resolution to affirm the 1915 massacre of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide would harm Washington's relations with Ankara. But as long as it looked like it would pass, Pelosi stuck to her guns. When Democratic support started waning last week amid protests from NATO ally Turkey -- which denounced the measure as "insulting" and hinted at halting logistical support for the U.S. war effort in Iraq -- Pelosi wavered.

Pelosi is one of several Californians in Congress with many Armenian-Americans in their districts. They have pushed similar proposals for years.

"I think it's more domestic politics, playing to interest groups, than backdoor foreign policy," said George Washington University professor of international affairs Henry Nau.
"If members of Congress are plotting with interest groups to weaken Turkish support of U.S. policy in Iraq and thus undermine American forces in Iraq, the drama thickens beyond my capacity to comprehend," he said.


Wake up, professor. Of course it is beyond one's capability to understand. It is also what she and other Democrats continue trying to do. They want to undermine our forces in Iraq and they want defeat. They are Al Qaida's greatest allies and our country's worst enemies.

Local Rebel
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1 posted 10-21-2007 06:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Washington, DC -- In a powerfully worded letter to two of his leading Armenian American supporters, Republican presidential hopeful Texas Governor George Bush acknowledged the Armenian Genocide, called on Americans to join with him in remembering the crime committed against the Armenian people, and pledged as President to ensure that the United States properly recognizes this terrible atrocity, reported the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA).


http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=3

quote:

WASHINGTON, DC - President George W. Bush today broke his promise to recognize the Armenian Genocide, reported the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA).

In a statement issued today, on April 24th, the annual day of remembrance for the Armenian Genocide, the President resorted to the use of evasive and euphemistic terminology to obscure the reality of Turkey's Genocide against the Armenian people. His position on this grave issue runs counter to the expectations of the American people and the bipartisan consensus of Congress - as expressed recently in a letter signed by over 100 U.S. Representatives.

The President's statement today represents a continuation of the Clinton Administration's policy of complicity in the Turkish Government's policy to deny the Armenian Genocide.


http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=73
Brad
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2 posted 10-21-2007 07:11 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
Wake up, professor. Of course it is beyond one's capability to understand. It is also what she and other Democrats continue trying to do. They want to undermine our forces in Iraq and they want defeat. They are Al Qaida's greatest allies and our country's worst enemies.


Sorry, Mike, this is just dumb.

How in the world can you go from a condemnation of genocide to 'our worst enemies'?

I might agree if you argued incompetence or downright stupidity (timing is everything), but don't you think you've crossed the line here?
Balladeer
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3 posted 10-21-2007 07:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brad, incompetency or stupidity would work if their actions were from being incompetent or dumb but the fact is that many of their actions to undermine our forces in Iraq have been intentional and deliberate. When you say that our soldiers are over there, murdering civilians in their sleep, when you announce that the war is lost, when you tell the commanding general that you are not going to believe him no matter what he says before he says anything, you are not being incompetent. You are being deliberate. The democrats do not want any kind of victory or even positivity in Iraq as long as Bush or the Republicans are in power. Terrorist leaders use Democrat talking points in their propaganda. I believe they would welcome complete defeat in Iraq if it kept them in power. They do not support what is good for the country but only what is good for them. Like it or not, I call their actions treasonable.
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4 posted 10-21-2007 07:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, timing plays an important part in life. You are going to print letters from the year 2000 as a response? Something has happened between 2000 and 2007 - 2001.

We are in Iraq. Turkey is a key ally. Is this the time to seek out brownie points from local voters to bring up events from 92 years ago which could strain that alliance? Not even many Democrats think so - even Murtha! - which has caused the swamp lady to back off.
Local Rebel
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5 posted 10-21-2007 07:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So then, Mike, what you're saying is that in 2001, 5 months before 9/11, when Bush backed off his stance on the Armenian genocide -- he was already planning an Iraq invasion?
Balladeer
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6 posted 10-21-2007 08:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, I'll say he thought it was a bad idea then and it's a much worse idea now due to Iraq. What this has to do with Pelosi I have no idea unless it's the tactic of pointing fingers in other directions.

what say you? Good idea or not?
Local Rebel
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7 posted 10-21-2007 11:22 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

What say I is that you obviously spend too much time with Rush and Bill O.  They're for entertainment purposes only Mike.  

Here is the list of Republican sponsors of HR 106:

Rep. Michele Bachmann [R-MN]
Rep. Brian Bilbray [R-CA]
Rep. Gus Bilirakis [R-FL]
Rep. Mary Bono [R-CA]
Rep. Ken Calvert [R-CA]
Rep. David Camp [R-MI]
Rep. John Campbell [R-CA]
Rep. Eric Cantor [R-VA]
Rep. Charles Dent [R-PA]
Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart [R-FL]
Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart [R-FL]
Rep. John Doolittle [R-CA]
Rep. David Dreier [R-CA]
Rep. Michael Ferguson [R-NJ]
Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen [R-NJ]
Rep. Scott Garrett [R-NJ]
Rep. Jim Gerlach [R-PA]
Rep. Duncan Hunter [R-CA]
Rep. Darrell Issa [R-CA]
Rep. Jack Kingston [R-GA]
Rep. Mark Kirk [R-IL]
Rep. Joseph Knollenberg [R-MI]
Rep. Ray LaHood [R-IL]
Rep. Steven LaTourette [R-OH]
Rep. Frank LoBiondo [R-NJ]
Rep. Daniel Lungren [R-CA]
Rep. Kenny Marchant [R-TX]
Rep. Kevin McCarthy [R-CA]
Rep. Michael McCaul [R-TX]
Rep. Thaddeus McCotter [R-MI]
Rep. John McHugh [R-NY]
Rep. Howard McKeon [R-CA]
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers [R-WA]
Rep. Candice Miller [R-MI]
Rep. Gary Miller [R-CA]
Rep. Marilyn Musgrave [R-CO]
Rep. Devin Nunes [R-CA]
Rep. Joseph Pitts [R-PA]
Rep. Jon Porter [R-NV]
Rep. George Radanovich [R-CA]
Rep. Dave Reichert [R-WA]
Rep. Rick Renzi [R-AZ]
Rep. Michael Rogers [R-MI]
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher [R-CA]
Rep. Peter Roskam [R-IL]
Rep. Edward Royce [R-CA]
Rep. Paul Ryan [R-WI]
Rep. James Sensenbrenner [R-WI]
Rep. Christopher Shays [R-CT]
Rep. Christopher Smith [R-NJ]
Rep. Mark Souder [R-IN]
Rep. Timothy Walberg [R-MI]
Rep. James Walsh [R-NY]
Rep. Zach Wamp [R-TN]
Rep. Gerald Weller [R-IL]
Rep. Addison Wilson [R-SC]
Rep. Frank Wolf [R-VA]
Rep. Philip English [R-PA]
Rep. Bobby Jindal [R-LA]
Rep. John Shimkus [R-IL]
Rep. Doug Lamborn [R-CO]
Rep. Thomas Tancredo [R-CO]
Rep. John Kuhl [R-NY]
Rep. Roger Wicker [R-MS]
Rep. Walter Herger [R-CA]

All of them thought it was a good idea for some reason Mike.  I see some from FL there too -- who is your Congressman?

All of these Republicans are enemies of America? (or are they just phony Republicans?)

What happened between February of 2000 and April of 2001 that caused Bush to change HIS mind?
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8 posted 10-21-2007 11:40 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Even some of Pelosi's closest allies, like Pennsylvania Rep. John Murtha, say she misjudged the Armenian resolution.
Murtha, who opposes the measure on the grounds the United States doesn't have any "damn allies" and therefore needs to keep Turkey on its side, counted up to 60 Democratic votes against it and said it would fail if brought up.


Why did Republicans join in on it? I have no idea. Do I consider them traitors, too? No, my views on that were from a compilation of Democrat moves, which I listed,  not just one issue.

What changed Bush's mind? Who cares...it has nothing to do with the topic. Bush has not called for it within the timeframe of the Iraq war. That's the issue.

Don't presume too quickly. I don't listen to Bill O.

...and you didn't answer the question. Was it a good idea to bring it up at this time or not? If you think it was, then why?
Local Rebel
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9 posted 10-21-2007 11:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And of course in 2005 in the 109th Congress (Republican led) the House International Relations Committee overwhelmingly adopted the exact same bill and chairman Henry Hyde (R IL) -- notorious enemy of America -- refuted the argument that it harmed relations with Turkey (in a time of war):

quote:

In his concluding remarks, Chairman Hyde responded to arguments that passage of the Genocide resolutions could potentially harm U.S. - Turkey relations. While noting that, "I very much believe the [U.S.-Turkey] relationship is of great importance to us," Rep. Hyde stated, "I don't believe that these resolutions will harm that relationship. They merely recognize the fact that the authorities of the Ottoman Empire deliberately slaughtered the majority of the Armenian community in that Empire." Rep. Hyde went on to note that "denial of that fact cannot be justified on the basis of expediency or fear that speaking the truth will do us harm."


http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=813

Balladeer
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10 posted 10-22-2007 12:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and you didn't answer the question. Was it a good idea to bring it up at this time or not? If you think it was, then why?
Mistletoe Angel
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quote:
Brad, incompetency or stupidity would work if their actions were from being incompetent or dumb but the fact is that many of their actions to undermine our forces in Iraq have been intentional and deliberate. When you say that our soldiers are over there, murdering civilians in their sleep, when you announce that the war is lost, when you tell the commanding general that you are not going to believe him no matter what he says before he says anything, you are not being incompetent. You are being deliberate. The democrats do not want any kind of victory or even positivity in Iraq as long as Bush or the Republicans are in power. Terrorist leaders use Democrat talking points in their propaganda. I believe they would welcome complete defeat in Iraq if it kept them in power. They do not support what is good for the country but only what is good for them. Like it or not, I call their actions treasonable.


CNN: August 16th, 2007

Well then, if you consider telling "the commanding general that you are not going to believe him no matter what he says before he says anything" (despite the fact the commanding general was reporting something the White House, and not he, himself, had written) as one of a list of actions you call "treasonable", then, by your logic, a majority of Americans, including myself, must be traitors in your view.

As for believing that the war is already lost militarily? I've believed that BEFORE we ever went to Iraq to begin with. Over 2/5 of Americans believe the war is already lost militarily, and many more believe the central problem in Iraq is that the Iraqi government doesn't seem to have any verve in getting to business and putting their country back together.

With all due respect, my friend, your views and reactions seem to parallel, even mimic, those of Rush Limbaugh's often, where as Limbaugh has grown increasingly desperate as of late to hold onto his relevance in influencing the political landscape and debate as he successfully did throughout the 90's, as he watches the party he deserves large credit for helping usher solid majorities over a decade ago suddenly implode and lose both its majorities last November, your comments also sound more desperate each time we talk.

*

*

Now, regarding your question over whether it was a good idea to bring up the Armenian genocide as Turkey is proving to be a decisive influence in how we go about diplomatically resolving matters in the region. OF COURSE NOT. Obviously it WAS genocide, and anyone who argues otherwise is a fool beyond all comprehension. Yet, I think it was a dumb idea strategically to try and excavate that hatchet all over again currently, and we need to approach this sensitive issue at a more relationally empathetic standpoint.

The point, however, is how you really just started this thread to try and single out one entire party for this dumb strategy, when as Local Rebel already pointed out the GOP, which also takes the issue of genocide seriously (Sam Brownback has been a leading voice regarding the Darfur conflict, which I commend him for) has ALSO had plenty of members involved in this latest campaign as well (about 1/3 of House Republicans sponsoring it) and so the issue obviously runs much deeper than mere party lines.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Ron
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quote:
Rep. Hyde went on to note that "denial of that fact cannot be justified on the basis of expediency or fear that speaking the truth will do us harm."

Wow. An American politician who actually believes doing what is right is more important than doing what is expedient? Who'd a thunk?


Balladeer
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13 posted 10-22-2007 12:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Rep. Hyde stated, "I don't believe that these resolutions will harm that relationship.

wow. A politician who is a complete idiot. A man who says that bringing up atrocities committed during the Ottoman empire at a time that we rely on Turkey in Iraq, when the Turkish-Kurd situation has become front page news obviously has no concept of foreign relations at all. No one is saying that it is a bad idea to bring up atrocities in the past to give recognition to a specific group but, as Brad said, timing is everything. Do it NOW? Why? To appease Pelosi's voters? We have seen Turkey's reaction...does it seem no relations are being damaged? At a time Turkey could use an ally against a Kurdish terrorist faction, do we pick that time to bring up resolutions on the House floor concerning atrocities committed by the Turkish government a century ago? wow indeed, Ron.
Balladeer
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14 posted 10-22-2007 01:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well then, if you consider telling "the commanding general that you are not going to believe him no matter what he says before he says anything" (despite the fact the commanding general was reporting something the White House, and not he, himself, had written) as one of a list of actions you call "treasonable", then, by your logic, a majority of Americans, including myself, must be traitors in your view.

Noah, the fact is that the majority of Americans, by every poll out there that you swear by, unanimously approved of the general and his presentation. Perhaps you missed those results?

As for believing that the war is already lost militarily? I've believed that BEFORE we ever went to Iraq to begin with.

Thant's very true, Noah. I'm sure there were many who believed that. It is one thing for us to think so and another thing for Congress to continue coming out with a barrage of points which do nothing more than undermine our troops in the field. Once war begins, I believe that the congress should band together and the nation stand as one. Peaceful protests? Of course - that is everyone's right but the Democrats in power have gone way beyond that. They have gone every way possible to elaborate on everything gone wrong in Iraq. Has there been any media coverage of the good things? Zilch. They do not want there to be anything good. Picture yourself a soldier in the field, Noah, fighting for something you believe in, which a majority of soldiers in Iraq do. What do you read? How the American are torturers based on Abu Ghrab. How American soldiers murder civilians in their beds. How the was is lost and America has no chance at any success. You are hearing this from your own politicians while watching videos of soldiers having their heads chopped off by terrorist machetes. How would you feel, Noah? Do you not think the terrorists are emboldened by such actions?  Limbaugh did say one interesting thing last week. On the CBS nightly news, Gibson said that there was  "no news to report from Iraq" since there had been no killing or no suicide bombs set off. No news???? That is GREAT news!  Unfortunately it is not the kind of news thay want. They want blood, bodies and mayhem - the rest, even peace, is unnewsworthy to them. I doubt the soldiers in Iraq feel the same way.
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A lie is a lie is a lie, Mike. Even when you think it will seemingly get you what you want. Maybe especially then?

In my opinion, when one lies in the name of expediency, whether through silence about what one knows happened or by pretending we can win a war that long ago ceased to have a winnable objective, any advantage potentially gained is unearned and, ultimately, unsustainable. I'm all for maintaining good relations with our allies. I'm all for supporting our troops. I'd like to think we could accomplish our goals with honor, however, with truth, with honesty.

Do what is right, I say. And then let the chips fall where they may.


Balladeer
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16 posted 10-22-2007 03:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't understand your meaning, Ron. The question is not whether something said is a lie or not. The question is the timing. Why now? Why at a time that Turkey is in the news fighting with Kurd factions? Why now at a time that Turkey and the US are allies fighting together? The events being brought up were from a century ago. Why the necessity to address them at this particular time? You may well respond "Well, it's the truth" but I still say why now? Don't you agree that the timing could have been much better?

Even now when major Democrats have turned against her, Pelosi still wants to continue the fight and push it. Why? Why would straining relations with Turkey be so important to her?
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17 posted 10-22-2007 05:30 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"I'd like to think we could accomplish our goals with honor, however, with truth, with honesty."


Nice thought.  Not particularly historical,
(Stalin was a buddy so long as seven out of every
ten German KIA's were caused by his troops).


And Mike, I have to agree with Brad,
it's stupidity not conspiracy.
Indeed, if the bill passed and Turkey retaliated,
(I think their going now after the Kurds
over the border is a signal), by cutting off
the supply routes to our troops the backlash
here could easily put a Republican into
the White House.


.
Balladeer
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18 posted 10-22-2007 05:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't underestimate the Demos, John. With the press behind them they can easily twist even that around to make it W's fault. That's what they do best. They can solve anything but only if they are in charge. They sold that to voters to gain control of Congress. Unfortunately for them, once they get there they have to produce.  When they don't produce, well, they make that W's fault, too. As Pelosi said last week, Congress hasn't gotten anything done because W is too partisan. Gotta love her....or not.
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quote:
You may well respond "Well, it's the truth" but I still say why now? Don't you agree that the timing could have been much better?

Absolutely, Mike. Earlier is much better than later. Had others not bowed to expediency in the past, it wouldn't need to be an issue today.

quote:
Nice thought.  Not particularly historical ...

Don't you really mean not particularly American, John? And, yea, you're probably right. I think there have been times, however, when the precepts of honor and truth still held sway in this country, when our actions were guided by emotions stronger than fear. Not recently, though, and I personally find that very sad. The scales of Justice were never meant to weigh consequences.


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20 posted 10-23-2007 06:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Had others not bowed to expediency in the past, it wouldn't need to be an issue today.

...and it needs to be an issue today.......why again?

when our actions were guided by emotions stronger than fear. Not recently, though, and I personally find that very sad.

There was also a time when our actions were not guided by power quests, when our Congress banded together for the good of the country, regardless of which party was in power. There was a time when politicians did not run to the nearest bank of microphones to denounce the military for the actions of a microrscopic few, when senators did not refer to our fighting men as murderers and torturers on the senate floor. There was a time when the government stood behind the military, not against it. I find that, not only sad, but abhorrent.
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21 posted 10-24-2007 07:40 AM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Dear Sir Balladeer,
you might want to fix your rusted rifle. You are a true fighter. But for whose interest? American? Republican? or Conservertican?


Not A Poet
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Well Mike, the Congress has to do something to maintain its approval rating in the strong single digits.
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23 posted 10-24-2007 07:55 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

"Don't you really mean not particularly American, John? "


Really Ron,
please at least suspect some people read
in your responses.  

I already gave one example.

Your return is premised on American omnipotence;
that they could/can always win a war, it was/is just a matter of how.
Nonsense.   No war is a slam dunk.

John

PS
And standing aloof while monsters
murder, (even their own country’s), people is hardly
the high moral ground. Or didn't FDR teach us that?



.
Ron
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quote:
Really Ron, please at least suspect some people read in your responses.  

Uh?

quote:
Your return is premised on American omnipotence; that they could/can always win a war, it was/is just a matter of how. Nonsense. No war is a slam dunk.

What?

quote:
PS
And standing aloof while monsters murder, (even their own country’s), people is hardly the high moral ground. Or didn't FDR teach us that?

Okay, this one makes sense. Sort of. I don't, however, "necessarily" agree. I have to use the word "necessarily" because it's not, in my opinion, as black and white as you would seem to presume.

Given a magic wand, I would certainly wave it on high and instantly eradicate murder from this Earth. All murder, John. Even the murder of those so-called monsters. Sadly, I have no such magic wand, and I'm willing to bet you don't either. So, what you really mean, I think, is that we should pick and choose who we are going to expend our resources to help and who we will let fall by the wayside. Suddenly, it's not so black and white?

(FWIW, I lied in that paragraph to make a point. The truth is, if I had a magic wand, I probably wouldn't use it so cavalierly. It's another of those gray areas, I'm afraid. Helping people is good. Depriving them of the opportunity to help themselves is not so good. I'm honestly not smart enough to always recognize the difference. Which, I suppose, is probably why fate hasn't seen fit to issue me a magic wand yet?)


 
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