How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 "The Evil Has Landed"   [ Page: 1  2  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

"The Evil Has Landed"

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


0 posted 09-24-2007 07:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7010962.stm


"Mr. President, I think many members of our audience would like to hear a clearer answer to that question," the moderator said. "The question is: Do you or your government seek the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state? And I think you could answer that question with a single word, either yes or no."

"You asked the question, and then you want the answer the way you want to hear it. Well, this isn't really a free flow of information," Ahmadinejad retorted”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297823,00.html


That translates to me as “yes”.


When the full transcript of the Columbia Event becomes available
will someone post it here.  I think that  will be the best, though not
clearest, insight into the kind of mindset the West, ( of which to my
mind Israel is merely the frontline), will and is having to deal with.

And I would frankly like to hear opinions.

Oh and by the way, there are no homosexuals in Iran . . .
.


[Edit - changed smart quotes to ASCII quotes in the Title - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (09-24-2007 07:26 PM).]

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


1 posted 09-24-2007 07:25 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
That translates to me as “yes”.

That translates, to me, as perhaps wanting a dialog rather than an inquisition.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


2 posted 09-24-2007 10:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

He has had several opportunities for dialogue and has evaded them all.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


3 posted 09-24-2007 11:24 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

That may well be true, Mike. Past actions certainly are valid indicators of attitude and intent. If that is the basis for translation, however, it doesn't really matter -- at all -- what was actually said. In that case, it's not a translation, it's a prejudgment. Valid or invalid, just or unjust, it's still a prejudgment.

Any time someone asks a question and then tells me the way they want it answered, my immediate response is to tell them to go to hell. That's just me, I guess.  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


4 posted 09-25-2007 05:04 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

If the answer were 'no', what would be your reaction? Would you believe him?

If the answer were 'yes', what would be your reaction? Would you believe him?

Would it bother you, perhaps, if he said that he thinks the world would be a better place without Israel, but that that is not a realistic possibility?

Do you believe the world would be a better place without the government of Iran in place?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


5 posted 09-25-2007 01:46 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


AHMADINEJAD: Oh, God, hasten the arrival of Imam al-Mahdi and grant him good health and victory and make us his followers and those to attest to his rightfulness.

http://www.islamicweb.com/history/mahdi.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi
.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


6 posted 09-25-2007 05:17 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
either yes or no.


Another false dichotomy, it amazes me that people always seem overly impressed with them, especially presidents, I remember another recent example “you’re either with us or against us”. A supposedly polarising statement that only acted to marginalize those people, like me, who were neither with nor against anyone in particular.

Sometimes an answer deserves, if not demands, more than a simple yes or no, if you don’t believe me try answering this with a yes or no:

Do you believe that it’s ok to lie?

If you answered yes you’ve just condoned every lie ever told, if you answered no you run the risk of being proved painfully wrong the next time a female asks “does my bum look big in this” or a child asks “Does Father Christmas really exists”.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s eventual answer by the way was as follows:

“We recognize there's a problem there that's been going on for 60 years. Everybody provides a solution and our solution is a free referendum, let this referendum happen, and then you'll see what the results are.”

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 09-25-2007 09:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I will agree that some questions cannot be answered yes or no, like "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" but others can be and it's sad that, instead of being held to answer in a definite way, they can simply dance around it, answer with a question,or evade it completely. When someone speaks of destroying Israel in inner-country speeches and then is asked to verify that in another surrounding, I see no problem with the question.

Ron, I don't really see you dodging a direct question or telling someone to kiss it for asking a for a difinitive answer.
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


8 posted 09-26-2007 12:00 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

I'm usually slow to comment politically, but I have to agree with Mike here.  It was a valid question, even if emotionally charged.  Plans to destroy a government, and the desire to see a government change are two different things.  He expressed a similar view and conditional friendship toward our country (which may very well be patronising, at best).  But the fact that he couldn't even say such a modified thing about Israel, speaks of a more inveterate kind of enmity.  The conflict is ancient and religiously-rooted.  And I'm quite certain that men like this will never tolerate (if the power is obtainable) Israel having a square foot for a nation.  He's fine with Israelis as long as they become "Palestinians"


Stephen
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


9 posted 09-26-2007 04:56 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

quote:
He's fine with Israelis as long as they become "Palestinians"


I think that's exactly right.

I also believe that it doesn't matter how he answered the question -- it wouldn't have changed anybody's mind.

I think John sees it the same way. So why post it?

Gee, that's not a hard question at all.

When do you want to start bombing, John?

Or do you see other possibilites on the horizon?
Stephanos
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 07-31-2000
Posts 3496
Statesboro, GA, USA


10 posted 09-26-2007 11:11 AM       View Profile for Stephanos   Email Stephanos   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Stephanos's Home Page   View IP for Stephanos

quote:
I think that's exactly right.


That suggests a kind of futility for peace negotiations don't you think?  I'm aware of the dangers of fatalism, but I think that those who are working for peace need to understand this mindset is all about eradication, not compromise.


Stephen
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


11 posted 09-26-2007 01:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Brad,

I post just to show how in the face the man is;
that he is not joking.  He opened his last
visit with the Mahdi reference.  And I agree
that the talk about a referendum of “Palestinians”
is talk about the elimination of Israel.

And Brad, I don’t really care; I’ll be dead
or something like it soon enough so it won’t
matter.  What interests me is the denial, ( I’ve
already heard of a debate in the EU as to
whether the man actually means what he is saying).
And I guess one plan is to wait and see.

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


12 posted 09-26-2007 03:35 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Michael,

quote:
I see no problem with the question.


Fine then you shouldn’t have a problem with this one either:

So President Bush are you going to invade Iran, yes or no?

How surprised would you be if your President answered this with a categorical but simple yes or no? Wouldn't you expect and demand further explanation beyond that simple yes or no?

How full of surprise, indignation and outrage would you be if he simply danced around it, answered it with a question,or evaded it completely?

The simple answer doesn’t increase our understanding of the other persons views it just reinforces prejudgement and prejudice allowing no room for dialogue, discussion or debate, which is probably why the original question was posed that way.

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


13 posted 09-26-2007 03:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



The answer would be no.

Israel would give the same answer.

The better question would be:  “Would you resort
to military force to deny Iran the opportunity to acquire
nuclear weapons?”

Israel apparently just answered the question in Syria.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 11-03-1999
Posts 4427
Oklahoma, USA


14 posted 09-26-2007 04:30 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Not similar questions at all, Grinch. Had the man not repeatedly stated that "Israel does not have the right to exist" then you would have a point. Since he has then a quite pointed question is perfectly in order. A yes or no response should be demanded. If he wants to elaborate, that should also be acceptable, but only after the question has been answered.
Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


15 posted 09-26-2007 04:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Israel apparently just answered the question in Syria.


Apparently so has the US Government.

“An unidentified senior American source quoted by the paper said that the US government had sought proof of nuclear-related activities before allowing the air strike by F-15 warplanes to go ahead.”
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070924/twl-mideast-conflict-israel-syria-3cd7efd.html

All we need do now is sit back and await the reply; my guess is it won’t come in the form of dialogue, discussion or debate and is unlikely to be particularly short or sweet. The unanswered question of course is will it be in the Golan Heights or downtown America?

Not A Poet

quote:
If he wants to elaborate, that should also be acceptable.


Which has been my point all along.

No but..

Or

Yes but..

Is fine but demanding a simple yes or no answer without allowing further elucidation almost guarantees misrepresentation or misunderstanding.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


16 posted 09-26-2007 05:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So President Bush are you going to invade Iran, yes or no?

Not a Poet answered you for me, grinch. The two questions are not similar at all. The Iran president has stated definitely that the destruction of Israel is necessary. He was simply asked to repeat it outside of the familiar element of his own country with his own countrymen there cheering to back him up.

Any invasion of Iran would be conditional, based on conditions that do not yet exist. To ask as yes or no question of invasion before certain conditions are present makes it an invalid question. Even if Iran were to shoot off nuclear weapons and Bush would be asked the same question, his answer would be, I feel confident, that first America would call on the other countries to join in condemning the action and setting up boycotts or non-military pressures. Only if that failed would the question be reasonable.

Iran did not make those, or any, conditions. The comment was that Israel needed to cease to exist, to be wiped off the map...period. The statement given was unconditional. That makes it appropriate for a yes or no response.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


17 posted 09-26-2007 05:34 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

And my point continues to be that it doesn't matter. The answer is irrelevant to policy.

Do you think that we should bomb Iran, now?

Or do you think other options are on the table?

--------------

There is an argument to be made that he doesn't really want Israel to be destroyed. Not because he is a kind and gentle man, but because the question of Israel is a unifying force in Iran (In the same way, hatred of America is a unifying force in N. Korea.).

What happens when you lose that unifying force?  

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


18 posted 09-26-2007 05:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Grinch,

Did you really expect Israel
to sit on it's hands?
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


19 posted 09-26-2007 06:07 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

So you support Israel's military actions in Syria?

Why not military actions in Iran?

Somehow, 'what did you expect' is precisely the answer I expected.

For the second question as much as the first.

  
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


20 posted 09-26-2007 06:15 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Advice for Iran:

quote:
Given all this, you would probably be well advised to keep your forces, including clandestine forces, as far away from the Iraqi border as you can. You might even consider bringing in some neighbors to verify that you are not shipping arms next door. Tone down the rhetoric on Zionism. You've established your credentials with those in your world who thrive on that.

If it makes you feel powerful to hurl accusations at the American eagle, have at it. Sticks and stones, etc. But, for the next sixteen months or so, you should not only not take provocative actions, you should not seem to be doing so.

For the vast majority of Americans who seek no wider war, in the Middle East or elsewhere, don't tempt fate. Don't give a certain vice president we know the justification he is seeking to attack your country. That is unless you happen to like having bombs fall on your head.


--Gary Hart

I realize that this quote may very well change this thread into an attack on Hart, but it looks like its already veering in a different direction anyway (From Iran to Syria).

If that happens, my apologies, John.
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


21 posted 09-26-2007 06:21 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Sorry again, John:

quote:
Politicians, pundits, journalists, diplomats, talk-show bookers, historians and social scientists all paid rapt attention to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's visit to the U.S. this week. I suspect some shrewd crisis-management experts were watching the proceedings, too.

The despot gave an enlightening lesson in how to manage the U.S. media: Be vague. Obfuscate. Smile mindlessly -- a lot. Be friendly. Nod wisely instead of speaking foolishly. Say absolutely
nothing threatening or menacing. Turn their image of you on its head. And, for God's sake, man, say nothing of substance.

Maybe, instead, the lesson was how to sucker the U.S. media. The man played us for suckers -- just like any PR-hungry celebrity who spins reporters and editors. The bottom line was that he knew more about how the American media works than they knew about him.

--Jon Friedman

This is what I should have been saying all along.

Ooops!

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


22 posted 09-26-2007 06:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I probably should have put these first:

Sam Sedai:

quote:
This is not because questions with regards to anti-Israel and anti-American rhetoric aren't important. But rather, they are nothing new! Iran has been issuing such empty rhetoric since the Islamic revolution in 1979.


And we all know this. But the more important reason for quoting Sedai is this:

quote:
But human rights crimes, stoning of women for infidelity, arresting unmarried people for dating or holding hands in public and killing homosexuals for being [homosexuals]have been going on for almost three decades. As someone who was arrested in Tehran at age 16 for the crime of being on a date, I can attest to that fact.


When did we all become such suckers? At any rate, these are the questions that should have been asked:

Sedai again:

quote:
Will you allow women to have the right to initiate divorce from their husbands or obtain a passport without the consent of their husbands?


quote:
Will you allow boys and girls to date or go to school together?


quote:
Do you promise that the people in Iran can be safe in publicly criticizing you or the Supreme Leader Khomeini?


quote:
Will you guarantee people's rights to wear whatsoever clothing they choose in public?


quote:
Will you allow people to convert away from Islam to other religions?


quote:
Would you support a free UN-administered referendum for your people to vote on whether they want an Islamic republic or a secular democratic republic?


quote:
If yes, will you respect its outcome?


And now, I promise, no more quotes.  
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


23 posted 09-26-2007 07:14 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


"Iran has been issuing such empty rhetoric since the Islamic revolution in 1979."


The problem now is that with their nuclear program the words take on a different weight.


PS Brad, I hope it's still safe for you to walk
the streets after your apostasy.

(-;
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


24 posted 09-27-2007 12:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Maybe, instead, the lesson was how to sucker the U.S. media. The man played us for suckers -- just like any PR-hungry celebrity who spins reporters and editors. The bottom line was that he knew more about how the American media works than they knew about him.

No kidding, Brad. Anyone can play the U.S. media for suckers because they are idiots. He not only suckered them, he stole their material. Abu Ghrab, Gitmo, the surveillance program - all of the things the Democrats and press have been hammering away at for years for the sake of headline-grabbing - he used as avenues of attack. At times it was hard to distinguish who was speaking - him or a democratic senator or the editor of the New York Times.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> "The Evil Has Landed"   [ Page: 1  2  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors