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Poverty
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Poverty |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. “Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR, or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry, and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family’s essential needs.” http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjE3NTA4Yjc0NjQxMDA4ZjhlZjczMWM0YWNlM2JhOTg= . |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/povdef.html |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I am one storm away from homeless. We played it "safe" too--civil service jobs--the only sure bet in a welfare state. We lived the American Dream. We screwed up bigtime by paying off the mortgage that paid our flood insurance too. (We thought that was what we were supposed to do...) Civil Servants...it's very easy to end up on the wrong side of that desk. Somewhere, the state of Louisiana still houses over 200 unclaimed bodies, victims of Hurricane Katrina. The low evacuation rate can be chalked up to "recklessness" or the fact that it was August 28--and social security and yes, welfare checks, don't arrive until the first of the month. Even if everyone owned those assumed vehicles--in a state that supplies many natural resources--they couldn't afford the gas. They are going to ring little bells in commemoration here. I understand President Bush is going to be here too. (Personally, I wish he'd wait until five days after--just to keep with tradition.  )Y'wanna know why our nation's poor are fat? Talk to me after "bean week", potatoes, and feeding eight people on three chicken leg quarters. I was going to write something about this all, but I can't get past this song, lyrics by Paul Simon, but the origen of the tune is questionable. It may be an old hymn, "St. Matthew's Passion" written by Bach. And if Paul Simon minded me sharing the link--trust it would not be available. It pretty much sums up how I feel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE3kKUEY5WU It's not just us, either. Take a ride OFF the interstate some time--from Northern Mississippi, the bottoms of Kentucky, to Flint, Michigan...and more places than I care to know. And sing an American Tune. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. SB, Yet the question to be asked is does your particular story extrapolate to 37 million? How much poverty in the United States is actual as opposed to political? I never owned a washer or a dryer much less a home; where does that put me, (I don't even have a cell phone; what's cable?)? John . . |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Funny that you asked that, John. I came back here to quote myself--I may be one storm away from homeless--but so are you. One wildfire, one dam burst, one mudslide, one collapsed bridge, one swollen river, one drought--have I covered it all? (I came back to add a blizzard) Not quite. One corporate take-over--are you guys sure you know how far in debt you are? Have you asked your spouse? (One calamity and you will know for sure if your neighbor's high-end lifestyle is on credit or not--suicides here were rampant, just like the Great Depression, John.) How sure are you? Don't think I'm sitting here saying "oh poor ME"--not at all. Poor U.S. My father, I swear to you, until chemotherapy crippled him? He got up everyday and replaced a nail, a board, or just did something to maintain the upkeep of his home. I'm not seeing that happening in our government. Those are sinkholes in our highways, not speedbumps. And I am not suggesting our government do it all--I've got a hammer--I've got a nail--I do what I can. But oh--y'gotta admit, there's some disparity on the willingness of those able... AND? quote: Do you have children John? Or maybe you are gonna tell me you are running your computer there, OFF THE GRID--that is run by happy squirrels who do this for you eating granola bars that you make yourself? Give me an expletive break.  |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
SB, Yet is that the same thing as Poverty as America through the political view understands it? And by the way, I saw a lot of well off suddenly bite it when the company/economy went south; still that's not the same thing for they had something by which to prepare, ( in the professional world that I lived in you always treated some part of your salary as a severence package). John |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I can only say what I know, through my point of view--and that is this: If the political view doesn't take into account class distinctions and the obvious gulf of understanding that is occurring now--right now--there are going to be serious ramifications. And weren't you the one asking what the French should do about their revolting peasants? I gave you more credit for more sense, then, John. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'll see your edit and go "all in" John: "And by the way, I saw a lot of well off suddenly bite it when the company/economy went south; still that's not the same thing for they had something by which to prepare, ( in the professional world that I lived in you always treated some part of your salary as a severence package)." Try coming "home" to a job, that says you are not fired, not laid off, but on "Leave Without Pay" until further notice. You lose your salary, your health benefits, and get this? You can't even file for unemployment, because technically? You are still employed. "We are just not paying you until further notice." That's what our government did to us. Our EMPLOYER... think, John. Think. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
SB, It translates to the same question: does that translate to 37 million? Around me immigrants with little or no education, legal or not, as my father did, are owning homes, making good; how do you explain that? John |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
You know damned well I can't crunch those numbers. And why should I? I can't even explain how we are making it. I am sitting here though, about to slam the off button on my computer--because it has been two years...and I can try to make you see--for the first time, I am really trying to explain to someone what happened--and you are obstinately turning your head away--to look at people who don't really matter to you, while you congratulate yourself on your self-sufficiency. And I don't know your story--you may very well live up to all that you just espoused--but: I will ask you again John-- do you have children? I'll bet you don't. I am sitting here typing in tears, and I am one of the few LUCKY ones here. I had a lot of help. Forgive my selfishness. I can't afford 37 million. I have two--and they are kind of expensive, John. (and no, they don't have cellphones, no cars, and yes, they go to public school, and why am I explaining this to YOU?) My kids are my comfort. May you find, I dunno, something equivilant, if not the same. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
smile-- yanno what? I am so outta here. There's a nice moon out there. ta, John. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Yes, it is a nice moon, which means for us all it will in the end be resolved. John . |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
*sniff* |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
SB, Please know how much I care. Trouble is I got no money to put where my heart is so all I can offer is my shoulder. Somehow, I feel your pain yet I cannot imagine. And here in Arizona we're just one microburst from broke. I'm not sure how you survive. But I do know what it means to be a survivor. That you do exceptionally well and you make me proud to be your friend. You can't put a face on 37 million. But I can recognize your lovely face and then I begin to feel the challenges of Katrina, even from here.  If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I don't feel I could have made it through the way Karen has. Dunno, until one is in a situation it's hard to tell what anyone is capable of, but I'm angry & heartsick for her just from reading her accounts. She & so many countless other Katrina survivors were smacked around in every direction with things that would cause anyone to feel an amount of hopelessness. AND senselessly screwed out of things that would take most anyone under. That's the thing, for me. I came from dirt poor upbringings but I didn't know it. See? I didn't know I lived in poverty because there was no hopelessness or anyone screwing anybody out of anything. We shared what we had with a pride and sense of security I still don't have today with a bank account. Sorry, just had to say something, and I don't mean to speak for you Karen, you do fine, hon. All to your own. I just know there's a difference between poverty level and being beaten down to that level. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I'll try this again. (I just lost a lengthy reply..sighing.) I just came in to thank Larry and Regina for their kindness and sensitivity. And I am smiling at Larry too--because I had just typed that even if you were incredibly wealthy--wealthy enough to not even blink at a monthly stipend to me in my name--that is not what I want anymore. After losing every "safety net" from fathers, to siblings, to jobs, to even the metaphorical father figure of the assurance of our government--what I want is the security of self-reliance. What I want is a saleable skill, that will translate in any state, or any country--the security of knowing I have the capability of taking care of me and mine in any circumstance. I might as well ask for, well, last night's moon, huh?  But I'd like to think that what I dream of is possible--A fair wage, in trade for a legal service--one that doesn't entail my walking on the backs of other human beings. More money? Sure, that would be great. Right now I'd settle for enough money. But with more money, I could pay forward the generous help that was shown to me and my family during that incredibly difficult first year after Katrina. John? I don't know your story, and you don't know the whole of mine either. But I assume we are both sitting here in bags of flesh, and therefore we both know pain. Mine isn't greater, and yours wouldn't make mine any less valid. So peace to you all. And I'd like to take this moment to plug my favorite organization--Habitat for Humanity. I assure you they are legit--and they are actually doing what others only promise. One home at a time. You guys are my heroes.  |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
SB, I'm feeling pretty wealthy about now, thanks to you. And you can't counterfeit that!  If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
LOL. A car? What kind of car? I have a couple of friends (who are above the poverty line, mind you) one recently graduated from college, one still in school. Their cars suck- a 92 Tempo and a 94 Berreta that run- sometimes- and when they don't run, some other expense has to go by the wayside to afford to fix it. Think there's money for a car payment there? And that's without the burden of kids. And owning a house? LOL. Didn't you start that housing market thread, John? It's easy to own a house... until it gets foreclosed on. My mom (a single mom, and a successful one, mind you, although your precious article would probably debate me on that) had a lien placed on her house... due to healthcare costs. And she wasn't in poverty either. Did you open Karen's link? "Family A has five members: two children, their mother, father, and great-aunt. Their threshold was $24,662 dollars in 2006." My boyfriend and I made that much (combined) during college. Our rent was cheap, our (crappy) cars were paid off. but you can bet we were couting our pennies when rent came due and eating a lot of Ramen noodles. And that's for TWO people, not FIVE. Bute man, have an ounce of pity for those in poverty, you're just a bleeding heart liberal. Next time I treat a dirt-poor patient (and boy, do I see a lot of them in the inner-city hospital where I work) I'll just tell him/her that they aren't really that poor- and anyway, if they worked more, they'd lift themselves out of paverty. It's not like I've ever seen people leave the hospital against medical advice because they had to work, or because they had children at home and nobody else to care for them (ever think that THAT may be why some poverty-stricken people don't work more?) *shaking my head* Stupid John Edwards, how dare you campaign for the poor??!! |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: --Ezra Klein C'mon guys, get over it, there are real people out there with real problems. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
Nice job perks. He gets to avoid poverty at all costs, & retire comfortably in the great state of Denial with comments like: "It is worth reminding people of how good this economy is." Let him trade salaries with a Teacher for a year and see if he really Means what he says. I mean, it's mean to mean meaning from your own means as if it's the mean for all. *it's a commanding word that's not always easy to live with* |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
"Let him trade salaries with a Teacher for a year and see if he really Means what he says." http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
And your point? After all, there are more important people to think about. Snow has cancer. How many of those numbers do? Snow has the best health care in the world. How many of those numbers do? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Poverty in many countries are true life while in some other contries is politics. In America, I would rather think that poverty is a political term. As Larry c added the link to Wiki, poverty shall not be talked in statistical term. It shall not be defined by lower 10 percentile or 5 persentile in refrence of the median. I had a friend who was a doctor and brought family money from UK to buy a big house together with a forest and guest house. I have another friend who was a worker and own a house worth 60,000$ with a pool(a present of housing project by Queen E). I will not call the later living in poverty. A friend of mine, an Gynocoloist in Bangladesh, her husband, a judge in suprimcourt, did not want to spend the money for a trip to zoo (6$), too much for her consider the exchanging rate. Is she poor? by American standard, she might be. But she was not live in poverty in her country. Thinking of people in third-world countries, in war zones like iraq, no enough food(ignore the nutrient part), no water(ignore the dust, the bacteria and chemical ), no shelters ( ignore the adjusted temprature), to me, talking about poverty here is a laughing matter. I have seeing homeless people in every city I went and to those Government shall lend a hand but why care about them (Goverment do have shelters for them though)? If they do not bother themselves to vote...even vote..quite insignificant amount of numbers. So, if one has whatever one NEEDS for a life (I did not say that has to be comfortable), one shall not be called living in poverty. One of my dear friends is a radiologist in Texas. Income 400,000 a year and 30 days vacation time. We shall all work hard for that position. But then, there are still someone living in poverty by statistics. American Government is good. Australia Government is better because people living in "poverty" has many benefit..food, child care, and housing. Their monthly "income" from Government can offered a morgage for a very decent singel house with a big yard. Shall I call them living in poverty? of course not, not at all. wish all people in this world could have a good lunch |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Interesting topic which has made many turns due to personal positions and opinions. One of the things to be taken into consideration is the definition of poverty. How many of us really know what poverty is? How many of us know what being hungry really means? We have our own definitions based on our own lives, what we are accostumed to and what others have around us. The government sets a "poverty level". How ridiculous is that? As the flip side of the coin goes,"if you have to ask, you can't afford it", so goes the fact that, if you have to ask if you are impoverished or not - you aren't. We type on a computer, from our homes, and speak of poverty. Karen, I know how well you have fought the good fight. I can only imagine the hills you have had to climb and how far you have come based on sheer determination and a refusal to give up. What basically put you into that condition was one of the biggest natural disasters in recent history, though, not poverty....and look how far you have come. Yes, you and your husband have been making it back by your own determined efforts but, at least, the opportunity has existed for you to do so. Hush, you speak of your friends with the 92 and 94 cars and college educations and make some point (?) that, when there's a car repair, they have to make adjustments...that has something to do with poverty? You and your boyfriend, both attending college, both with paid off cars and renting a place, eating a lot of noodles....this has something to do with poverty? You speak of the inner-city hospital patients you see. THERE I agree with you. There I am sure you see poverty. can you equate them with your friends or you and your boyfriend in college? I find it unlikely. Brad, bringing Tony Snow up in a poverty topic makes no sense to me at all, except for laughs, I guess. Based on your location, I KNOW you know what poverty means. Regina, I don't know any teacher who lives in poverty, either. We are spoiled. Pure and simple. We complain about stations in life that millions of others would die for. We scream poverty from our houses, with cars in the driveway, clothes in the closet, tv and stereo going and we complain that we can't afford the new HD flat screens. At times like this, I can understand why much of the world despises Americans. We complain about old paid-off cars while millions have never driven a car. We complain about eating noodles once in a while while millions haven't eaten anything in days. We complain about hunger while there are hundreds of thousands in India and Africa who walk miles each days just for drinkable water. There are children who rely on scraps left on tables in outdoor restaurants to survive. There are other children who turn to prostitution even before their teenage years to feed their families. Hungry people - actual HUNGRY ones - can feel the pain of their bodies feeding on themselves while in pain due to lack of food. I've lived in countries where that happens. I've seen it.....and I still can't imagine how it actually feels. Neither can you. It's not entirely our fault. That's our culture. That's how our "keeping up with the Joneses" attitudes develop from a very early age, like having to have an I-pod because all the kids have them. Poverty? Nobody reading this is in poverty. One of the most ridiculous things the government can do is to set a "poverty level", a line where one can claim with conviction that they are poor, verified by the government. John is right...it is ludicrous to set that level and apply it to people who have all the things he listed at the beginning of this thread. We should spend more time being grateful for what we do have and less time complaining about what we don't. There are a lot of people out there who would gladly trade places with you, believe me. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, I've been watching this thread. It occurs to me that you are a misinformation master! There is poverty in this country and there is no denying it. Just a month ago, one of my family members had to evict a man, his wife, and child from a small cottage which she rented to them for $225 a month. They had not paid rent for about six months. He was an ex-con who could not find work. The wife had MS. My relative literally bought the little girl her going-back-to-school supplies. My family member is not wealthy, living on fixed social security income so she could no longer afford to house the people for free. The man, the evictee ex-con, literally stole chickens for his dinner and gigged frogs and trapped illegally on the property to survive. That is just one example, Mike. There are Native Americans living in this country that truly are living in poverty. It is a disgrace. There are homeless, thousands of homeless. What planet do you live on, Mike? You can argue New Orleans and how spoiled we all are as much as you want. I agree that most of us who are able to participate at PIP are probably spoiled to at least a low-to-average middle class life style, but you will never hear me deny there is poverty in these United States. I lived in a third-world country for three years where per capital income per year was less than you earn in one day. I know what poverty is and yes, it does exist here, too, and is growing every day. With all due respect, you must be blind, brother. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/IncomePovertyWelfare/HighPoverty/analysis.htm I realize this data is from 2004, but things have certainly not improved since then or if they have, prove it! |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Like I don't know it could be worse...  That was precisely the point I just backspaced--and I backspaced it because my sister just called and she asked me to just don't say anything more. We've been poor, Mike. Really poor. And if this were ink it would be the blood of my father-in-law. It's his roof that I live under and his lifesavings we are bleeding back into a system that doesn't look like it is going to support us much longer. But for my sister, twist? I'll shaddup.  Just one more thing... (A tip to poor folks? You can pretty much get online for free with A.O.L.---just take the free trial and just try to cancel. I posted a TON of bad poetry and worse behavior on dial-up.) I was online for free for three years that way. (I swear, twist, I'm outta here...) |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Actually, my point was that the poverty line is not really about anecdotes. There are always richer people, there are always poorer people. It makes no sense to me to argue that because someone has a DVD player, they aren't struggling. It also makes no sense to me to argue that because you only make 160 thousand a year, you have to leave government service. The poverty line isn't about this. It's about the distribution of wealth. This whole thing got started because of an article at NR that contested Edwards' focus on this issue. The funny part, at least to me, is that John and Mike, took it to mean that the poor aren't really struggling. That it's a non-issue. But the article then goes on to offer solutions to the problem: 1. immigration control 2. fewer divorces 3. fewer out-of-wedlock births (Big government conservatism is not going to disappear when this administration leaves office.) Like John's reference to teacher salaries, the article points out that these solutions would edge many people over the poverty line. And then everything would be hunky dory? Snow's apparent reason for leaving argues against such thinking. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
With Snow, I don't believe it's the money. I think it's the nagging wife. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad is absolutely right this time. "The poverty line isn't about this. It's about the distribution of wealth." "Poor people" in American has hope to be self-reliance. Poor people has no much hope in many other countries. Poverty has different meaning from the meaning of "poor" in US my thought. |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Thanks Brad. That was my sister's point, too. The anecdotes make it seem like a competition, and truly, that does defeat the purpose of what I (and her too) are trying to say about getting "on the same page". Thanks for saying what I want to say, but saner. (I swear, I'm outta here. REALLY. ) |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
SB,  Now why do ya' keep shushin' yourself? Besides, it obviously doesn't work! If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Lar? I guess it's 'cause I lived it and wrote about it to everybody here--before it happened. Katrina didn't create poverty--she revealed it... and I think in that regard, New Orleans is a very poignant, yellow warning flag. And yeah, I might be partial 'cause I feel like it is mine but...SO? *grin* I dunno, Larry. *shrug* But I have a theory that the internet is going to change forever the infamous and deplorable re-writes of history, and we will no longer have to rely upon a scholar such as Howard Zinn to tell all sides for us--the people's history of the United States is being written in these forums, in our poetry, and on our webpages. Consider my outbursts a small contribution. |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
SB, And you dear friend are one of my favorite historians. I was only poking fun at your repeated threats you were done and meant no disrespect. Nothing is more impactful than our own experience. And to diminish someone else's experience is to diminish them personally. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
I pray I haven't done that. You have a heart to hold my own, Larry. It's like I keep telling my family, if we just work together, we can get through this. I really believe that, for our country too. I love you much yanno. Kiss g'nite.  |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
and sorry for the clunky sentences. I'll do better next time. Promise. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The funny part, at least to me, is that John and Mike, took it to mean that the poor aren't really struggling. How in the world you came up with that conclusion, Brad, is beyond me. Iliana, I have no idea how you came up with your comments, either. Yes, I must live on another planet since I must speak a language you can't understand. I have never said there are not poor or they are not struggling. What I AM saying is that the people who have those items John originally pointed out do not fall into that category...and neither do you. How many of your Indian friends, Iliana, have cars, own their own home, watch their tv and listen to their stereos? Living in those third world countries you speak of, you should know better about what abject poverty really is. What I am saying is that people who own those things originally mentioned are not the "poor", in a global sense. Having less than your neighbor doesn't make you poor. Yes, we have our share of poor people but take away the ridiculous guidelines created by the government and go by what true poverty really is represented by and the percentage drops drastically. It's just like the old saying goes, "I bemoaned not having a pair of shoes until I saw a man with no feet". Put away your soapbox, Iliana. It's not necessary here. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Exactly. You're disputing the definition of poor or poverty as defined by the government. I'm not. You're arguing that the poor, as defined by the government, aren't really poor. Yes or no? You're saying that they should look to other countries (These days, Korea is hardly poor by the way.) in order to . . . actually I'm not sure why you suggest that. At any rate, I suspect such comparisons provide little comfort and probably stir up feelings of guilt. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, you crack me up! I have not complained about being poor myself (sure, I'd like it better, but who wouldn't?). I'm trying to point out that there are people in this country that truely are living in third-world conditions. I gave you one solid example and there are many. Those people my relative had to evict did not own a TV, did not own a car, could not put food on their table, quite literally. There, by the kindness of strangers, go many in this country. Without our social programs for the poor, several areas of our nation would look more like the third-world counties to which you refer. Those programs don't actually reach everyone. As to my "Native American friends." I don't actually know any very well personally. My statement was based on reading. Also, it is as if you don't recognize the homeless in the States at all, Mike, which completely baffles me. If you have ever been to NYC then you have been approached by a homeless person more than likely. It's hard to escape it. Many of them live underground. In the winter, some are found frozen to death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States By no means, is our entire country poor -- I am not saying that. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that there is a problem in our "perfect" country. The problem is a growing one, not a diminishing one. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad, government has a definition for poor. Many people also have their own and there is a common sense too. Why government is right? only if that definition guides government to give relief fund. Does it? School free lunch, for a family of 5, is given when yearly income equal or below 44,641. Good for chlildren. But for people not "poor" pays 3.75 a meal. Does Government helps the "poor" and make others poorer? Do you think that everyone when has a sport car will be not poor? No, I don't think so. because many have private 767. Poverty, to me, is talking about basic human need...basic one course plain food, drinkable water and a shelter to get away from rain and wind. American Indian is different issue. They have their own culture. They certainly do not want chase buffalos around the single houses with wast green lawn and with a coco cola and ipod and satelite dish. By the way, Brad, I am watching 'How to marry a millionaire" Korean TV Drama. very Good. [This message has been edited by TomMark (09-06-2007 04:51 PM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Mike, I wanted to add that you are correct that by comparing the U.S. to third-world countries, you are right to say that our country is rich and spoiled -- no argument there. That is like comparing a completely rotten tomato with one with only a couple of bad spots on it. That's how I see it anyway. I'll keep the tomato with the couple of bad spots and be grateful for it. I am not complaining. I am, however, concerned that those couple of bad spots are going to consume the whole tomato before long if people don't open up their eyes about a few things. Yes, the majority of us do have it pretty good and I hope it stays that way. I just felt like you had your blinders on with regard to the misery that some Americans actually do suffer. And on that note........I'm done, too. Peace. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
You're disputing the definition of poor or poverty as defined by the government. I'm not. You're arguing that the poor, as defined by the government, aren't really poor. Yes or no? Yes, Brad, you are exactly right. Here are the facts of the link in which John started this post.... 80 percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning. Only six percent of poor households are overcrowded; two thirds have more than two rooms per person. The typical poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.) Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars. 97 percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions. 78 percent have a VCR or DVD player. 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception. 89 percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a more than a third have an automatic dishwasher. Now, if you want to call people with these amenities poor, then so be it. I don't. At any rate, I suspect such comparisons provide little comfort and probably stir up feelings of guilt. Stir up feelings of guilt for sure, Brad, if you want to use the figures as a weapon like John Edwards does... "In the past, Edwards has claimed that poverty in America is a “plague” which forces 37 million Americans to live in “terrible” circumstances. According to Edwards, an amazing “one in eight” Americans lack “enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,” caught in a daily “struggle with incredible poverty.” There is Edwards trying to stir up those feelings of guilt. Do you think the people that have the tangibles listed above are living in "terrible" circumstances and struggle daily with incredible poverty? You're saying that they should look to other countries (These days, Korea is hardly poor by the way.) in order to . . . actually I'm not sure why you suggest that. My congrats to Korea, Brad. Why should I suggest that? Fly into Maquetia outside of Crarcas, Brad. Caracas itself if approx 20 miles away. For the entire trip into the city you will see tens of thousands of mud houses built along the sides of the hills the entire way. Whenever there is a bad storm, hundreds or even thousands are swept off the hills like chalk off a blackboard. Family survivors gather up mud to build another house and go on. You will see dozens of children around every cafe, poised to grab food off plates and run. Venezuela is considered a rich country. There are worse. Why would I suggest looking to other countries for a reality check? Figure it out.... Iliana, I am glad that I provide a constant source of entertainment for you. There is no one I like to crack up more. It makes me feel that I have accomplished an important mission in life Also, it is as if you don't recognize the homeless in the States at all, Mike, which completely baffles me What baffles me is that comment, miss. I certainly recognize homelessness AND poverty in this country. This thread and John's link does not suggest it does not exist. I DO NOT recognize the fact that it describes 37 million, unless you wish to include those that possess what is listed above. Here is the conclusion of John's link, which it appears you may not have read. Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR, or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry, and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family’s essential needs. While this individual’s life is not opulent, it is far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians. There are also other facts mentioned which carry weight.. Another important factor boosting poverty in the U.S. is our broken immigration system which imports hundreds of thousands of additional poor people each year from abroad through both legal and illegal immigration channels. One quarter of all poor persons in the U.S. are now first generation immigrants or the minor children of those immigrants. Roughly one in ten of the persons counted among the poor by Census is either an illegal immigrant or the minor child of an illegal. Immigrants tend to be poor because they have very low education levels. A quarter of legal immigrants and fifty to sixty percent of illegals are high-school dropouts. By contrast, only nine percent of non-immigrant Americans lack a high school degree. Iliana, you can speak of any specific examples you wish. You can speak of Indians living in poverty there and I can speak of the Seminole Indians here, who receive 36,000.00 per year per person from the casino and cigarette sales revenue. That's 144,000.00 for a family of four. Not bad, huh? Every Seminole indian receives it. So what? Neither your example or mine is nationally indicative of anything. Neither are the homess walking the streets or freezing in the winter, unless you want to claim that they comprise a significant percentage of the population. Seems to me I read somewhere down here, at least, that a large majority of the "street" people have mental issues. I will acknowledge that there are MANY problems in our "not-perfect" country, but to juggle figures, misrepresent facts and use them as a public-scare tactic to create dissention and alarm where none is warranted, all for the sake of vote accumuation, is an abominal tactic. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
OK. I still don't get how mud houses in Venezuela make the life of a waitress, divorced with two kids and living in Panorama city, any easier. But, hey, at least she's not poor. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No one said anything about one making the other's life either easier or harder. I shall now give up on trying to explain the correlation to you. Obviously I don't have the ability to do so. We can leave it at that... Actually, on second thought, the mud houses would indeed make the waitresse's life easier. Just have her go down there and live in one of them for a month or so, living on a diet of beans and bananas. I feel fairly confident that, upon her return home, she will not feel as poor as she did before and, perhaps, even be a little more grateful for the things she DOES have. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Sir Brad, It is a very hard struggle to read your wonderful poems. does that make poor me pooer? Struggling in life is different from poverty. everyone struggles. Someone struggles for life while someone else struggles for "ideal" life. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Mike- my point wasn't that I or my friends were living in poverty- but that people can struggle, financially, above the poverty level. That, realistically, while lviing above the poverty level, I know poeple who will forgo healthcare (not poor enough for Medicaid) because they can't make their other bills. So, in comparison to my relatively cushioned experiences, what is government-defined poverty? I agree with Brad- the fact that there are people worse and better off doesn't make it suck any less for you or your family if you can't make ends meet. There is a degree in America of "keeping up with the jonses" but when it comes to the poor, in my opinion, we're talking about different things. Sure- someone who has a car and an apartment looks like they're a hell of a lot better off than people in mud houses, but our society is intolerant of people who appear poor and ungroomed. Imagine living in a mud house, getting up in the morning covered in dirt, and going to a job interview. Think you'll get hired? I don't see how having a microwave makes you any less "poor," I had a microwave for years that I bought for 3 bucks at a garage sale. You might scoff at the idea of eating "a lot of noodles" making you poor, but lower-income families eating cheap, low-quality food because that's what they can afford is a major contributor to health problems. But why don't we just argue the terminology- I mean, when someone suggests making life better for people, we should all just get indignant and say "life is fine!" Right? I mean, why else are we arguing whether the poor are really poor? I mean, even if they aren't literally living in a subway station, why not try to help them? Because we don't think their lives suck enough to give them a helping hand up to a higher socioeconomic status? Somone with a DVD player doesn't deserve foodstamps or financial assistance for college? I mean, it's cool- just sell off your possessions... that's what they make you do in order to qualify for Medicaid. They look at your assets- because by god, you better sell your house and use that to pay for medical care before we'll help you... literally making people become poorer in order to get help. That makes sense, right? Tom- 'I have seeing homeless people in every city I went and to those Government shall lend a hand but why care about them (Goverment do have shelters for them though)? If they do not bother themselves to vote...even vote..quite insignificant amount of numbers.' This astounds me. Insignificant? Why care? Do you have any clue what homeless shelters are like? The one I worked in was simply a room with a row of cots. There was a long waiting list and you could only stay for a month at a time. There were also rules- if you were caught using drugs, committing crimes, etc- you were out... which is fair but when you consider how many homeless are mentally ill, and how many resort to crime (esp. prostitution) to get food.... 'American Indian is different issue. They have their own culture. They certainly do not want chase buffalos around the single houses with wast green lawn and with a coco cola and ipod and satelite dish.' Um... well... they had their own culture, which we demolished, leaving them on reservations, to eke out a living if they can rise above the poverty (yes, I said that horrible word) and epidemic levels of alcoholism present... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Maybe we should start. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Hush, what is your definition of Poverty? |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Does it matter what my difinition of poverty is? I never said I had a problem with the governments definition- that was huan, you, and mike. However- I also don't think someone should necessarily have to be impoverished in order to qualify for assistance. Our current system promotes poverty... I've known poeple who don't work during college because, simply by not working, they plunge their income down and get more student aid, which replaces the income they'd ahve if they did work. I mean- why would you work? Incidentally though, the government doesn't start handing out college freebies for the poor until after the age of (I think) 23. Before then, even if you live independently of your parents, in terms of your FAFSA, you are considered a dependent. My father's estimated contribution to my education one year was $11,000- out of about a $40,000 income. So- no grants- which is fine, though I would have qualified for some if only my own income were to be taken into consideration. Once again, I'm not saying this to whine about mjy personal life, but simply as an example of the middle-class, because I do think that there are ways in which the middle class gets screwed. I guess my point is simply to say that (again) I consider myself pretty fortunate, and I consider my friends pretty fortunate... so if I know so many people who have struggled (struggled... not begged for money or not had dinner, just simply struggled) in my middle class, young existence... then how is it so easy for everyone here to write off the struggles of a family of five that makes $27,000 a year, or whatever that figure was. I mean really, they're not that poor, right? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Hush, if government moves its cut point, we may become rich or poor in a blink. So, it is not the number, not about what I have, what I don't. YOu are talking about college. I am taking about not go empty stomach to see next sun rising. It is different. You may say that you are poor and you may say that you are rich. As long as you have food, clean water(donot bring in the acid rain matter), a roof on 4 walls and two windows and a door, your situation is not in my concept of poverty. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Why does it matter what poverty is? Should someone literally be without shelter, food, and water before we, as a society, intervene? And besides- I thought you didn't care about the homeless. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Mike- my point wasn't that I or my friends were living in poverty- but that people can struggle, financially, above the poverty level. Ok, Hush, I see. I figured that when you responded to a thread discussing poverty, speaking of your friends then that meant there was some relation between them and the topic discussed. My mistake. Struggle? We all have struggled. Everybody on this poetry site (except Ron) has struggled. Struggling is a part of life. Michaelangelo, the only human in history who spent more time working on his back than Anna Nicole Smith, struggled while painting the sistine chapel. Anyone who has gone to college without a silver spoon in their mouths or a scholarship in their pocket has struggled. We all worked jobs to get through. We all drove ten year old cars held together by rubber bands and prayer. We all ate cup-o-noodles and beanie weenies. Struggling is not always a bad thing. It makes future success much more rewarding. It's a part of life...we struggle to succeed....and it gives meaning to success. We feel good about our success, and even worthy of it, because we did struggle.Even for those who struggle all their lives without achieving success, they can feel a certain pride in the fact that they gave the best they had. Your friends' "struggles" has little to do with this thread. They simply went through a phase that is a part of life for the majority of Americans. I agree with Brad- the fact that there are people worse and better off doesn't make it suck any less for you or your family if you can't make ends meet. ...and I agree with you both, up to a point. If I lose a son in a car crash, it doesn't lessen my pain to know that someone else lost three sons in a crash. If, however, I sit around moaning that I can't afford a flat-screen 56" HDTV, maybe someone should remind me that millions of people have no tv at all. Maybe someone should remind me that I don't just "deserve" it, I have to work for it. Somone with a DVD player doesn't deserve foodstamps or financial assistance for college? I mean, it's cool- just sell off your possessions... that's what they make you do in order to qualify for Medicaid. They look at your assets- because by god, you better sell your house and use that to pay for medical care before we'll help you... literally making people become poorer in order to get help. That makes sense, right? The most popular ploy by far....blame the government. You know, there was a time that men traded goods and values for the staples of life. Our country was founded by those actions. Settlers traded furs for groceries. Men traded labor for wages. That's what one had to do to survive. You gave to get. When I go to North Carolina we have covered dish dinners. Everyone brings a covered dish of meat, fruit, vegetables or whatever and we make a nice meal of it. Right now we have a nation full of people who didn't bring anything to the table with their plates out, saying "Where's mine?" It doesn't work that way. People stopped long enough to applaud JFK saying "Ask not what your country can do for you....." and then went back to saying, "What's my country gonna do for me?" I don't know anyone whao has been denied college financial assistance because they own a DVD player. I know a lot of people on Medicaid (and I'll be joining their ranks too soon!) and I don't know any who had to sell off their possessions to get Medicaid coverage. This astounds me. Insignificant? Why care? Do you have any clue what homeless shelters are like? The one I worked in was simply a room with a row of cots. There was a long waiting list and you could only stay for a month at a time. There were also rules- if you were caught using drugs, committing crimes, etc- you were out... which is fair but when you consider how many homeless are mentally ill, and how many resort to crime (esp. prostitution) to get food.... You're leaving out a point...they ARE shelters and they HAVE been provided. True, they may not have private rooms with lacy curtains on the windows but they are better than the street and they are free. Yes, they have rules. Yes, they are for a limited time. The one I give lectures at allows them to stay for six weeks. During those six weeks the occupants are required to attend so many courses each week and the lecturers of those courses must sign their papers as proof they attended. Those who do not attend are asked to leave. The courses are designed to help them on the outside world in some way. In other words they have to bring their covered dish (their attendance and adherence to the rules) to share dinner. I find that hard to criticize, although you appear not to. There are also dozens of "soup kitchen" cafeterias in Miami and ft. Lauderdale where one needs only bring an apetite. Is that a requirement of the government? No, they just do it. Our current system promotes poverty... Here I agree with you. It does. Our unemployment benefits promote poverty, along with food stamps. People realize that an unemployment check combined with food stamps can bring in more money than a low-level job working somewhere so why bother? The flip side of that is that there are also decent people who really need those food stamps temporarily to feed their families and unemployment checks to keep a roof over their heads. Do you throw them out to stop the ones abusing the system then? I've known poeple who don't work during college because, simply by not working, they plunge their income down and get more student aid, which replaces the income they'd ahve if they did work. I mean- why would you work? You mean, I assume, throwing out the little things like decency, self-respect and personal integrity? Then I agree....why WOULD you work? Be that as it may, the main point of the article is they way John Edwards tries to twist and use these figures to get votes. One out of eight Americans live in abject poverty (according to him).......but HE can fix that. Of all of the poor people in the United States, despite his millions, I think that John Edwards, or anyone who uses these tactics to get votes, is among the poorest. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Hush "Why does it matter what poverty is?" When politician talks about it, I laugh. When picture talks about it, i cry. "Should someone literally be without shelter, food, and water before we, as a society, intervene?" Who is "we"? Did you drop 500lb Bomb in Iraq? Poverty comes from War, government, and natural diaster. "we" is not relavent to interven. "we" created it. Because "we" is nursery of govenment. "And besides- I thought you didn't care about the homeless. " Vote for me to be president! I, myself have limited power. But if there were no other choices, I would not mind to rob a bank to feed my children, my relatives, my friends and kind people like Balladeer. Hungry does not wear moral. |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
Mike- 'We all worked jobs to get through. We all drove ten year old cars held together by rubber bands and prayer. We all ate cup-o-noodles and beanie weenies. Struggling is not always a bad thing.' For some people, that's not a temporary situation. There may not be any grand "success" at the end there- just more 60 hour weeks with nothing to show for it. I will say I am glad that the minimum wage was (finally) raised, though 7 bucks an hour still isn't much of a lviing wage, especially if you have dependents. 'I don't know anyone whao has been denied college financial assistance because they own a DVD player.' Then what was the point of the original article rattling off a list of commodities that those in poverty own? I mean, sure, you don't get denies assistance because you own a dvd player... but the orignal article seems to imply that you should. On the topic of Medicaid- here I have a big fat mouthful to say. I know Medicaid rules vary state by state, and maybe Florida's Medicaid rules are more lenient than Ohio's. I had to go, in my mom's stead, to our Dept. of Job and Family Services. I had to take a list of her financial income and her assets- though, interestingly, things like the credit card debt she had accrued trying to pay for medications and doctors bills weren't considered. I do believe that recently, owning a vehicle had stopped being considered an asset that could hinder you- but a house wasn't. She was declined, and wasn't approved for medicaid coverage until her house sold (whereupon the profits went to the nursing home that had placed a lien on it) and even then, there was the spend-down to worry about. At that time, in Ohio, every dollar you made over (I don't remember the exact figure) something like 470 dollars per month had to be spent on medical expenses before your medicaid kicked in. So... considering my mothers extensive healthcare costs, even if she hadn't been too ill to live at home, and even if the house wasn't counted against her as an asset, she would have had to sell the house anyway because the mortgage payment alone was more than $470 a month. You talk about paying for what you want- which is fair but especially with healthcare- even for a comfortably middle-class person... without health insurance, there is no feasible way to pay for a severe illness. The hospital I work at has an assistance program where as long as you pay something every month- no matter how little- collections doesn't come after you. That's great... but it doesn't change the fact that that debt permanently affects your credit score. What advice have you there? Don't get sick? Die rather than enter extreme debt? I never criticized the homeless shelters in and of themselves- I was pointing out to Tom that even though they exist, we still have to care, because it's not a cure-all. The homeless haven't suddenly found homes, it's a temporary shelter. And actually, all of the major homeless shelters and soup kitches in my area are run by churches and charities, not the government. In what I said, what ever gave you the impression that I think we should scrap public welfare, leaving everyone, not just the lazy, bereft? I think that therew should be incentives for gaining employment- not just a cutback in benefits that would cause, say, a working mom to say... "no... I can't afford to take a raise, or a promotion." Tom... uh... I can honestly say I have no clue what you are talking about... |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. There’s an underlying failure to appreciate that the “government” is not some immensely rich fat cat stingy with his own money. . |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Erase everything I ever said. I'm white trash. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
There are many underlying failings present here. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
US Government is the poorest of poor http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ We are all in poverty!! MAy someone show mercy, and sympathy on us!! |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
My dear SB, do not be upset. it is all theoretical talking. Many hugs and more kisses to you. One of my close friend is complaining her chest pain. But she has no insurence. So she does not want to see a doctor. She works as a substitut ele teacher. Her car is old and can not pass the smoke check and her apartment is very small. Her husband, an artist would rather starve to death than go out to teach paintings to support his family and taint his "pure artistic" taste. http://www.ruoli.com/ [This message has been edited by TomMark (09-08-2007 03:39 PM).] |
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Larry C
since 2001-09-10
Posts 10286United States |
Tom, That's incredible artwork. Seems a shame they can't make a decent living. If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Larry C "Poverty" means that nobody wants Art. I do not want to hang a 1000$ or 10,000$ oil painting on my wall. (for investment? no knowledge) My limited money is for real life, not for image. But I do worry about my friend... |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
For some people, that's not a temporary situation. There may not be any grand "success" at the end there- just more 60 hour weeks with nothing to show for it. I agree, hush, but how many? According to Edwards 1 out of 8 live in abject poverty. Do you agree with that? This thread was never about whether or not there is poverty in America, rather what constitutes the "poverty" label and what true percentage is applicable. There will always be poverty, here or anywhere. Give every person in the world a million and, in very little time, there will be billionaires and poor people. Is the percentage that high that we should be bashing the government and warning of impending doom, a la,Iliana? Well, if you want to count those people who own their own homes, own their one or two cars and have a bunch of the other things on that list, then maybe so. Is that realistic? I think no. 60 hour weeks with nothing to show for it You mean "nothing" like food in the fridge, a roof over their heads, clothes in the closet and a car in the driveway? I understand what you mean but "nothing" is not the right word. Yes, I understand what you are saying concerning your mother. I had the same situation with my grandmother, who passed away some time ago. All of her assets went, too. I don't understand what is wrong with that. You are speaking as someone who would go into a grocery store, state you are dying of hunger and need food to live, acknowledge that you have money in your purse but do not want to have to pay for it. How many stores would say no problem? Why do you demand the government not do the same? The difference between that store and the government is that, after you have spent all of your money, the government would keep giving you food. The store wouldn't. And actually, all of the major homeless shelters and soup kitches in my area are run by churches and charities, not the government. Interesting. My girl serves in one of the kitchens here and assures me that hers, along with many others and the shelters, are government-funded. There are indeed also others which are church run. I think that there should be incentives for gaining employment- I am glad that the minimum wage was (finally) raised, though 7 bucks an hour still isn't much of a lviing wage, especially if you have dependents. Then you will have to make up your mind, hush. Raising the minimum wage is not an incentive for gaining employment. Hush, there is not one birth certificate issued that has a guarantee on it. No one is promised anything when they come into this life. No clause states that you are going to be taken care of by others if you are hungry, sick or a victim. I happen to believe the United States government does a great deal for its citizens with regards to providing aid to the needy. I also believe they do a good job of keeping a country running that offers opportunities for people, who want to, to succeed. Obviously I am not a Democrat |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
That does it, Mike! Point out to me one place in this thread where I have bashed the U.S. government, please. I guess I'm not the only one who doesn't read (although the truth of the matter is that I actually do). |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
For a non-dem, you certainly seem satisfied with the work the government does, Mike. But okay, this thread is about poverty. How many are poor in America? What do you want to call the 37 million who aren't poor? ------------------- |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
No problem, Iliana... I am, however, concerned that those couple of bad spots are going to consume the whole tomato before long if people don't open up their eyes about a few things. what few things should people open their eyes about? Let me guess.... That is your modus operandi, miss. The homeless in this country is not a problem that is going to "consume the whole tomato". The sky is not falling. You have done the same thing in the past. Once, you spoke about how our economy and the ability to find jobs was in shambles because your daughter, a college grad, couldn't find a job. Later in the thread it came out that she is a concert musician....not exactly a position that has a lot of openings, wouldn't you say? Yet you made it sound that people just could not find work based on her. You paint crises where none exist, warn people about them and point your finger at Washington. It's nothing new.. Brad, what would I call the percentage of the 38 million poor who own their own homes and have one to two cars in their driveways while watching their cable programs on their color tv? not poor... |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
So 0. No poor in America. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Let me take a wild guess and say you're not a math major, Brad.  |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Once again, Mike, you PRESUME too much and prove yourself a spin master. You know quite well I was referring to poverty when I made the analogy of the couple of rotten spots on the tomato, not the government. About "opening up their eyes," I believe you have read into that phrase what your own conscious dictates. I have not mentioned the government in this thread and I don't intend to do that. As for my daughter, you know absolutely nothing! Yes, she is a concert musician with a graduate degree. You think she hasn't looked for work. It took her six months to find a job, finally at a law firm in NY -- she got paid minimum wage to scan documents into a computer for four hours a day. That is not a living. She applied to Star Bucks, restaurants, babysitting, and basically, well, you name it -- jobs that many illegals actually hold. She was fortunate in that much of her college was paid by scholarship. The rest of it is our debt and her debt. Her part of that if probably $30,000 which she cannot afford to pay back at her current earnings. You assume I blame the government. No, I actually don't blame "the government," Mike. You are completely off. I happen to like the ideals of our "democracy." If you want to argue politics here, go ahead. I'm not going to participate in that in this thread. If you want to talk about the other thread, then pull it up. Have a nice day. Edit -- I came back to add that my daughter worked the entire time she was in college at the school. That job ended when she graduated. And, yes, she applied there for work, too, after graduation, but.....dah....their budget was cut. [This message has been edited by iliana (09-09-2007 06:45 PM).] |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I meant in terms of public welfare, there should be incentives toward gaining employment. Because, as you and I well know- you mentioned it- there are plenty of people without honor who would remain jobless and just take the freebies (without working) which end up being the same amount of money they'd get if they were working. And, there are also people who, say, if they got a job, would have to find childcare, which would end up diverting any money they make at work to childcare costs. Okay- I reread the original article. I can concede that Edwards was exagerating to a degree... I also think the author of the article was exagerating. No surprises there, right? Two individuals, one conservative and one liberal, exagerrating to make their point? I still, from my experience, tend to see things from Edwards point of view. I had friends in low-income housing (even friends with married, working parents, believe it or not). True, they had four walls and a ceiling, (barely) working cars, (secondhand) clothes, and (cheap, non-nutritious) food to eat. But when the upstairs neighbors are beating each other and the next-door neighbors are selling crack and you have to compete with cockroaches for space... the fact that you have two rooms per person might seem a little irrelevant. Your telephone (which, a land line is not expensive. When we qualified for low-income land-line phone service, it was 7 bucks a month) does not make you feel priveleged when it constantly rings with bill collectors... you know, like if you couldn't pay the credit card bill after you had to use credit to repair your car because you work midnights and can't take public transportation to work... It can't all be blamed on the person who's trying to make ends meet. Or maybe it can... because if all single mothers got married- gee willikers! What a wonderful, poverty-free world we'd live in then! Reality check: If the father of your kid is too much of a loser to pay child support, what in God's name makes anyone think he'd be a profitable addition to the family? Instead of being single, and spending his money (if he has any) on whatever he wants, he'd be married and spending his money on whatever he wants. Reality check number two: deadbeat dads and loveless marriages do not make a happy home, even if they might make a non-poverty-stricken home. Reality check number three: My single mother made more than enough money to support us both- that is, until her medical expenses reduced her quality of life to poverty level. My mother was also college-educated. If more women made more money, maybe we wouldn't have to worry about being depenedent on men. But.. oh... crap. That ruins Rector's conservative utopia, doesn't it? |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I’ve been wandering in and out of this thread trying to work out why I agree with both sides of the argument, then it hit me, maybe it’s because both arguments are correct. The only stumbling block is our old friend definition. Here’s a statement that jumped out at me when I read the article: According to Edwards, an amazing “one in eight” Americans lack “enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,” caught in a daily “struggle with incredible poverty.” It’s the “incredible poverty” bit that caught my eye; it seems to describe a state of poverty that is higher than extreme poverty and a long way from abject poverty, which is poverty in its lowest form. I think that’s where this discussion is getting bogged down, the difference between incredible poverty and abject poverty is huge and defining both under the banner of poverty is bound to cause disagreement. Everyone seems to agree that there are people out there (and in here) that have or are struggling to make ends meet, they have to reside somewhere on a scale from abject poverty to affluence and being in a struggle with incredible poverty seems to be a reasonable description. We could argue that they aren’t living in mud huts eating cockroaches and noodles once a week but we’d just be mistaking them for the poor souls suffering under the burden of abject poverty we’d be using the wrong definition of poverty. But they have houses and TV’s and microwaves so how can they be struggling with incredible poverty? In the north of England we have a saying that goes “she’s all fur coat and no knickers” loosely translated it means she displays the outward signs of wealth but hasn’t the wherewithal to afford the necessities. If she lived in the US she’d fall neatly into the category of struggling with incredible poverty, fur coat and all. So couldn’t she sell the coat? Well she could and it might even drag here out of poverty for a week or so but then she’d slip straight back into it minus a perfectly good coat and in anyone’s eyes a lot worse off (especially considering her deficiency in the knickers department). |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
quote: Nope. Is this a math problem? How many of the 37 million are poor? Did you answer the question? Honestly, I'm not playing here. I'm trying to figure out the parameters of a potential debate on the state of the nation. Yes, I find it a bit frustrating that you and John seem more than willing to say something is wrong (and, as far as I can tell, you're right there), but unwilling to discuss the issue in any depth. Are there poor people in America? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
There are poor people in America 1, Bankrupted trillinaires 2. Homeless and those on state welfare 3. anyone who think that he is poor. There are people struggle hard to make ends meet 1. Single parent of 10,000 dollar yearly income with 4 children. 2. People pay morgage of 600,000.00$ for 1,000,000.00 home on 100,000.00 yearly income. 3. any one who felt like this There are people living in poverty 1. by Government definition 2. by any definition 3. homeless 4. people live on welfare 5. whoever being kicked out from Government shelters. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. There is a vested interest in proclaiming as many as possible in poverty. The point was made decades ago that if you simply gave to those in actual poverty the money that in programs were intended to help them they wouldn’t be in poverty anymore, they would be middle class. . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, of course you are playing, Brad. It's what you like to do with one and two line comments and/or responses...your M.O. You asked me if the 37 million were poor or not. I replied that the percentage of those who had the things I listed were not. Taking that percentage and multiplying it to the 37 million to get the answer is math. Your response was 0. Your math is flawed. Are there poor people in America? Of course...that has never been the issue debated here....as you well know. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Indeed, it is. But I don't see any numbers. I don't know, I don't think you know either. Does anybody know? We drop the 37 million, see, but we can't come up with another number. How can we talk about poverty in America on a national scale if we can't come up with another number? Ultimately, I think, its less that we can't and more that we don't want to. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad, Give me your definition of poor then I will go google for you. Will you believe Whatever comes out? |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'd be interested in anything you came up with. Poor: having little or no money, goods, or other means of support Its a vague term and therein lies its beauty. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Here 'ya go: "In 2005, the number of people living in extreme poverty, that is, with incomes below half the poverty line, remained the same at 15.6 million people. The number of Americans living in extreme poverty remains the highest level on record, since data first became available in 1975.*" http://www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfacts.shtml |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Of course I don't know, Brad. That was not the point of this thread. You say drop the 37 million but, according to Edwards, the 37 million of people living in abject poverty IS the number. This thread initially was about Edwards using that number to paint an unrealistic picture in the brains of those without brains and get their votes as the man who would change this horrific situation of one out of every eight Americans living on scraps. Edwards - champion of the poor? Barf bag, please.... Heck, if he could change to 100 dollar haircuts, he could donate 300 to soup kitchens and feed a lot of people every time the bangs get clipped!  |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
From 2005 when over 15 million were considered well below the national poverty levels: http://www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/tour.htm The important thing here is that this video was based on the national poverty line -- so this is what applies to the over 37 million people in our nation today and the people to which John Edwards referred. This is worth the watch for anyone who doesn't understand what poverty in this country means. We are not talking about poverty in third-world countries, where I could buy food for my entire household for a month for less than $50. It is not appropriate to compare the two. We are not talking about survival in a third-world country; we are talking about survival here in the U.S. where the cost of living is much different. |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Brad http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aaprisonpop.htm |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
What's your point, Tom? That people go to prison because they are poor? |
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TomMark Member Elite
since 2007-07-27
Posts 2133LA,CA |
Dear sir Brad gave me a definition of poor and I tried to find a number to fit in it. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
The important thing here is that this video was based on the national poverty line -- so this is what applies to the over 37 million people in our nation today and the people to which John Edwards referred. Actually, Iliana, the important thing here is that Edwards knows full well that the figure of 37 million does not represent those living in abject poverty and deplorable conditions and yet he used it anyway. The actual figure, which you provided the link to, was far less than half that. if you could find that info in minutes, why couldn't he? |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Obviously, Mike, you did not watch the last video I posted. Over 15 million with incomes half below the poverty line.....I appreciate the way you put that... what was it you said...."far less" than the 37 million? Well, to me, Mike, over 15 million does, indeed, represent an extremely significant number. And....remember those numbers were from 2005 when our economy, by your standards, was still growing. Data from last Friday indicates the economy is not only at a standstill but is declining. Let's hear your argument on that (but please pull up the old thread where you disputed that rather than continuing to distract and detract from the true discussion here). Also, I want to point out that the article which John used to start this thread was taken from a William F. Buckley publication, well known to be an ultra-conservative and slanted publication (not that I don't appreciate some of what Buckley has to say). When I was 18 years old I had a summer job taking census and working for the Headstart program. Part of the job entailed interviewing the poorest of poor in my county as well as carting kindergarten aged kids to the doctors, dentists, etc. I have seen the other side of the fence here in the U.S. starting way back then when opportunity was much stronger. Much of what I saw then was single mothers or people plagued with horrible illnesses who not only could not put food on the table even with the help of food stamps, but could not care for their children's severe medical problems which ranged from malnutrition to rotten teeth to loss of hearing in several children due to lack of medical treatment for things like ear infections that went untreated -- oh, and let's not forget cancer. All of this since the late 60s has not disappeared. My work then was in a prospering county in Ohio. But even in that prospering county, there was poverty. The headstart program helped. It did not solve anything. Habitat for Humanity helps but it is not a permanent solution. Are we just suppose to accept the fact that there are poor, really poor, among us and that that's life. Or are we suppose to care and try and make a permanent difference, addressing the real causes of poverty in this country? [This message has been edited by iliana (09-10-2007 04:10 AM).] |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"Total Americans BELOW the official poverty thresholds numbered 37 million. Since 2000, the number of poor Americans has grown by more than 6 million. In 2005, the number of people living in extreme poverty, that is, with incomes below half the poverty line, remained the same at 15.6 million people. The number of Americans living in extreme poverty remains the highest level on record, since data first became available in 1975.*" [Emphasis added; figures from 2005.] The 37 million includes people who have to make a choice about giving up one or more of the following: food, shelter, medical care, or transportation. It's that simple, Mike...all four are necessities in this country to get out of the cycle of poverty. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Also, I want to point out that the article which John used to start this thread was taken from a William F. Buckley publication, well known to be an ultra-conservative and slanted publication (not that I don't appreciate some of what Buckley has to say). Iliana, whatever you think of Buckley, I feel assured he doesn't make up quotes. In the past, Edwards has claimed that poverty in America is a “plague” which forces 37 million Americans to live in “terrible” circumstances. According to Edwards, an amazing “one in eight” Americans lack “enough money for the food, shelter, and clothing they need,” caught in a daily “struggle with incredible poverty.” Those are Edwards' quotes. However you wish to try to sidestep it, Edwards claims that 37 million Americans live in "terrible" conditions and "struggle with incredible poverty". You can try to talk around it if you wish but the facts are that he said them and they are lies. Period. 15.6 million does indeed represent a formidable number but my comment stands that it is a far cry, more than 50% less than the figure Edwards used. Yes or no? In your work for the Headstart program, Iliana, how many millions did you see? Of course you saw poor people. There are poor people in every city. How many of those people you saw lived in 4 room houses with two baths and a car in the garage? Not many, I would guess and yet those are the ones Edwards chooses to use to come up with his scaremongering tactics. remember those numbers were from 2005 when our economy, by your standards, was still growing. Well, my standards must be fairly good, then, since every economist in the country (not running for office) agrees. The 37 million includes people who have to make a choice about giving up one or more of the following: food, shelter, medical care, or transportation. It's that simple, Mike...all four are necessities in this country to get out of the cycle of poverty. Yes, it also includes, redheads, brunettes, blondes and left-handed people. The question to be asked is - how many? Are we just suppose to accept the fact that there are poor, really poor, among us and that that's life. Or are we suppose to care and try and make a permanent difference, addressing the real causes of poverty in this country? The answer, Iliana, to that is....both. There will be always be poor, in any country, no matter what. That has not changed since the beginning of mankind and you're not gonna change it. Mental illness is one big issue. Let me know how many doctors you can round up who will treat them. Apathy is another. There are actually people who want to live that way, who want nothing to do with society, responsibilities, or rules of any kind. You won't change them. Others are from lack of education. The percentage of destitute persons who never finished high school must be formidable. what do we do there? As the article sated, a large percentage of them come from illegals, who never finished any formal education in their countries. The solution to that would be to keep them out but look what happens when that issue is brought up. You and I, Iliana, cannot make a permanent difference....but we can make temporary ones. I can continue handing out meals at the shelter, lecturing at the Outreach clinic and you can continue with whatever programs you engage in which provide aid to those in need. Every once in a while perhaps we can convince someone that they really do matter and that there are people who care what happens to them and just maybe it will propel them enough to make changes in their lives for the better. That's the best we can hope for.... |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
"In your work for the Headstart program, Iliana, how many millions did you see? Of course you saw poor people. There are poor people in every city. How many of those people you saw lived in 4 room houses with two baths and a car in the garage? Not many, I would guess and yet those are the ones Edwards chooses to use to come up with his scaremongering tactics." In my work for Headstart, none of the children I helped had parents who owned cars. Most lived in less than four rooms. Some did not have proper bathrooms at all. All were malnourished. Most did not have electricity or phones. Of course, I did not see millions, Mike. I only worked one county. But if you took that as an average of what exists in each county in each state of the U.S., it would certainly add up to millions. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I just wanted to say that the information is much appreciated. |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
YW, Brad. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Yes, Iliana, it would add up to millions....15.6 to be exact, not 37. By the way, you didn't answer my question... The actual figure, which you provided the link to, was far less than half that. if you could find that info in minutes, why couldn't he? Is it too hard to acknowledge that he purposely used the wrong numbers? |
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iliana Member Patricius
since 2003-12-05
Posts 13434USA |
Those figures are from 2005, Mike. I have no idea what they really are now. The information is not available on the internet as far as I can tell. Perhaps, since Edwards has been very directly involved with the Center on Poverty, he has better figures than I was able to obtain. Perhaps, you'd best ask him. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Then why is there the problem that so many people are or are trying to get in than get out? . |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Aha, I see. So you think it's possible that the figures have gone from 15.6 to 37 million in the past two years then. I should ask John Edwards? Let's leave it at that. I don't want to make you continuing to sidestep to not answer. Obviously you are not either capable or interested in acknowledging his actions. That's fine with me.  |
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