How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 For Liz Santos, & Everyone, Please Read
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

For Liz Santos, & Everyone, Please Read

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


0 posted 08-02-2007 02:00 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hello Liz and all
I have misplaced your email address and phone number.  While having lunch today with a friend, well, we got to talking about this b/c these people are her relatives...

I think everyone needs to read this...

Liz, you and I had a conversation about this once I believe?  

http://www.acereport.org/forum.html
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


1 posted 08-02-2007 04:57 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

Turn-a-deaf-ear is par for the course for major wealthy industrial polluters; then discredit and destroy those who complain is usually the next step.

LeeJ, this article was dated 2002. But is this another pile of under-the-rug-dirt that has yet to be addressed? I now live along the mighty Susquehana and am always leery of the city water, not to mention the sewage plant that sits in the flood zone, and the toxic chemicals upstream that have no where to go but down river to unsuspecting communities. How pathetically sad our society is, that our haste to make a buck and keep it is always at the expense of innocents.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


2 posted 08-02-2007 06:23 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hiya, and how are you doing?

well, I have a friend who is a writer and this website are her relatives...she's told me that in Pottstown, where Liz lived, and Liz educated me on this very subject a few years back...and low and behold, at lunch, my girlfriend starts telling me about this.  Apparently, they've not only had death threats, but have had the brakes cut on their car.  

This is the stuff I mean, when people start talking about 2nd hand smoke and how dangerous it is...pardon me...and I don't wish to get into a debate over that...but this is exactly the kind of information that I tried to relay here in the forums before and got shot pretty much down...but it is in fact real and very true....

Its in our water, all the chemicals we injest in our foods, the air we breath...

This couple found out, it takes tons and tons of water to simply cool one nuclear reactor...and if they didn't have that water, I'd hate to tell you or even think about what could happen.

Also, as I stated before....chemicals stay in the ground hundreds and thousands of years...it is not actually known how long...yet people need clear ponds on golf courses and lakes...especially in the Poconos of PA...therefore, tons of chemicals are poured into these lakes and ponds several times a season to keep them free of algie and fresh water weed, which is all going into the water table.  Now, there are fish that can take care of this problem, but the people who sell these chemicals have bought out the state of PA, therefore the state will not allow these fish to be legal...they are called the white amour and they grow to be 30 lbs and eat 1/3 of their body weight in algie and weeds a day.  Matter of fact, Bob Hope introduced them to gold course ponds...in some states they are legal, but in PA, they are not...why, b/c there would be to much money lost by these chemical companies...who, by the way kill tons of fish with these chemicals.  How do I know this...I lived on a lake, and did plenty of reasearch, regarding this subject...plus everytime this company came in to treat the lake, the next few hours, fish were floating...and they said, it was safe to swim in..but fish were dying...and people swam in that lake anyway, they are still treating that lake to this day...and very few fish reside there any longer.  You do the math....this is just one small lake.  Now compound that, and the Poconos being a tourist attraction and of course, everyone wants crystal clear lakes to swim in and golf by....so...hence...all these chemicals are going into the water table.  

I'm certain, things of the same nature happen in your area, compounded by manufacturing and as in the STATE of DE, chemical treatment plants.....

I fear, this is why more and more people are indeed getting sick every year, including our children.  

It's everywhere...and I'm not saying this to scare anyone, you shouldn't be moved by fear, but more so, be powered with knowledge...people unfortunately do not want to wake up and face this b/c it's bad news....but if they don't soon wake up...there are going to be far more bridges collapsing in the U.S. as well as sickness and diseases we can't cure.

This is a very serious problem that is not only reality, but dangerous to man's survival....chemicals, which are also in our medications over long term use and exposure can cause a real problem...depending on the person, their body's chemicals, their genes, etc.  As most of you know, we carry the cancer cells dormant in our bodies, which can be activated by a simply cold.  

so, yes, this is another pile of under the carpet dirt, that has not been addressed...and oh, by the way..just so you know, when I phoned EPA when all those huge bass started floating and they came out to inspect the situation, they never did a thing, nor did they call us back.  


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-02-2007 08:38 PM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


3 posted 08-03-2007 07:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


LeeJ

Every time we have a rain shower overnight I go into the garden to find my chrysanthemums and digitalis decimated, most havenít a leaf or flower left on them. I think it could be due to acid rain, which is definitely on the increase according to recent studies.

Of course I may wrong, after all Iíve no evidence to connect the rain directly to my damaged flowers.

Thereís a name for this type of correlation itís called post hoc ergo propter hoc, in plain English it means whatever happened after this must have happened because of this and itís a very weak argument.

The argument the web site makes is very similar Ė air pollution has gone up and cancer rates have gone up so the cancer must be caused by the air pollution, I donít doubt that both have gone up but see no direct evidence to connect the two.

Thatís one gripe out of the way now hereís another.

Why does everyone naturally presume that companies and government officials are conspiring to dump all these pollutants willy nilly into the environment? Do you actually believe that these companies and government officials are consciously trying to increase pollution? Isnít it more reasonable to presume that they feel the same way as the rest of us, that they are just as keen to breath clean air as we are?

Gripe number three.

This is the local nature of the campaign on the site, it smacks too much of the Ďnot in our back yardí mentality of all local clean air and anti-pollution groups. They donít focus on eradication of pollutants or polluters they focus on ensuring that the polluters build their factories and power stations in someone elseís back yard. That sounds a little selfish donít you think?

Next gripe.

quote:
It's everywhere...and I'm not saying this to scare anyone, you shouldn't be moved by fear, but more so, be powered with knowledge...people unfortunately do not want to wake up and face this b/c it's bad news....but if they don't soon wake up...there are going to be far more bridges collapsing in the U.S. as well as sickness and diseases we can't cure.


I wouldnít call claiming a correlation between pollution and collapsing bridges being Ďpowered with knowledgeí, Iíd slot it squarely into the pigeonhole marked Ďtrying to scare peopleí.

BTW before anyone decides to educate this dullard gardener I already know - the slugs did it Ė I could of course eradicate them, but the thrushes seem to rely on them for feeding their young, I could pick them up and throw them over the fence into a neighbours yard but that would be a little selfish. Iíll just continue moving them to the weed patch I leave at the edge of the yard in the hope I can convince them to clean up their act.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


4 posted 08-03-2007 11:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

but if they don't soon wake up...there are going to be far more bridges collapsing in the U.S.

er, huh???
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


5 posted 08-07-2007 07:51 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Grinch

I worked construction (road and bridge repair and built roads) ...20 - 25 years ago...Local Union #158 out of Bethlehem, PA...

at that time, one of the "state inspectors" whom we worked for, spoke with me, discussing America's infostructure i.e. bridges and roads which he commented, are in very bad shape and failing and falling apart.  He challenged me to go underneath any bridge and inspect it for myself...that we are on borrowed time...he reinforced, that this country is in for huge problems (by the way, PA is known for being one of the worst states when it comes to road travel, and anyone who has traveled here knows why)...that was then...since then, we've had many structures fail in PA (smaller concrete bridges)...and the corrilation I'm making is the fact, Grinch...that a lot of structures here in PA have failed, and when our smaller bridges fail, and fall, they close them and don't repair them for quit some time, even years...no money to repair them.  

Yet, back during the last gas crisis, they allocated a tax on gas for bridge and road repair which was imposed but never used for that purpose.  

It is only a matter of time, until our infostructure starts to fail....Concrete doesn't last forever...and consider, there is more strain in volumn of traffic on our bridges today, then any engineer considered 40 - 50 years ago.  

Now, the corrilation I'm trying to make is the fact that our chemical plants...and factories INCLUDE our infostructure...

I don't believe you went through the website I posted thoroughly (and by the way, they are working on putting up a new website as it is done and ready)...yes, the article is from 2 years ago, and these two people (husband and wife)  managed to gain enough information and backing to close down the land fill.

There were lots and lots of people getting sick in Pottstown and still are.  Not just cancers, but many other diseases...

By the way, on our local news yesterday, (ABC ACTION NEWS)they reported that plastic bottles can cause cancers....apparently there is a substance in plastic which when it starts to break down, has been proven to leach into the unborn fetus and stay in that child, later on in life causing breast cancer, prostrate cancers, etc.  We use plastic bottles from milk to store ice tea, water...we also heat up in the microwave foods in plastic...heat breaks this substance down even faster. Now this has been an ongoing study for years...buy hey, no truth to this, but it must be 2nd hand smoke?  Right?

Now, consider how many milk containers, and water bottles all over this country that entails...and how many of them are laying in land fills, leaching into our gound water.

Grinch, this isn't simply about the air...it isn't that simple. It is a whole magnitude of substances and products and chemicals that all add to this fator....

Do you realize, how many cancer causing agents you injest in your body every day....?  Chemicals...insecticides...hormones to make chicken and beef grow faster...chemicals in diet soft drinks...all your sweetners? Chemicals in swimming pools...chemicals in water...now adding to that, note, a chemical biologist friend of ours told us, that there is no proof as to how long chemicals stay in the ground.

Now you have chemicals being thrown into golf course ponds and lakes to keep the weeds and algie under control...which kill fish...I lived on a lake in the poconos...and the community used those chemicals on our lake.  They said the chemicals were safe...yet after the treatments, they had to come back with 55 gallong drums and pick out all the dead fish...(muskie, bass, pike, sunnies, etc) but in fact the chemical companies said, it was safe.  They did this all over the poconos and still do.

Now adding to that, you've got your waste from factories leaching into our rivers and streams.  I can't tell you how many cases there have been in PA, right in the area where I live...Allentown, Bethlehem and Easton.  There was a factory in Easton natorious for this...and resulted in big fish kills.  

No, this web site if FACT...and run by people who've had they're lives threatened and the brakes on their car, cut, intentionally, which speaks volumns.  

Walk into any cancer center today and ask them, how many children are suffering from these diseses...many more then years ago...many more diseases...think about it...

I'm not trying to scare anyone...I'm trying to raise awareness...

These things are true...and this website is true, and not simply some bogus website, this site is owned by relative of a friend of mine...and Pottstown, PA is very close to where I live.

So next time your drinking water out of a plastic bottle, realize, the chemicals in our products, and believe it, it is not mountain fresh spring water....

Oh, and the first time Clinton ran for President of this country, one of his campign issues was this countries infostruction...which I'm certain some may remember...after he got in...it was an item that was dropped, never to be mentioned or addressed again....I do think he tried though...but realized it was futile...

My cousins daughter worked in DE....a nurse at Dupont...there were 3, not one, but 3 chemcial accidents from plants down there in one year...we never hear about them...but she said...the next generation is definately going to glow....

Grinch, say what you want, but you have no idea?  We Americans are so misinformed but if you start to think about it...

realize all the decks that have been built out of pressure treated lumber...pressure treated lumber is full of dangerous chemicals...they say it is lethal when burned...and you should wear a mask...well, consider everytime it rains how much of that is being washed into our ground, our water tables...and the magnitude of decks in America today?

It is a fact that cancers and diseases are of epidemic porportions in the U.S. today...yet, in Asian countries, it is not, why?  It is not from 2nd hand smoke b/c Asians smoke way more then American's do.

I'm not trying to scare anyone, much more, trying to wake people up...we are in denial and very misinformed.  

And conspiracies, when it comes to big money...?????  Believe me, you got enough money, you can buy out anything...and anyone, and if money doesn't work, there are always threats...

You can't fight corporations...they are not even fined anymore when they do leak into the environment...but hey, just keep thinking its 2nd hand smoke...

So grinch and anyone else, mock if you will, but the facts are researchable...and ever present, more then you would like to believe....

Debt from this war, isn't the only thing from our culture that our grand children will inherit..

oh, and as far as the website...yes indeed, they fought it, and said, not in our back yard...people all over that town were getting sick...very sick...cancers, other diseases, it became apparant over the years...and there were other factors besides the landfill, I believe there was a foundary, and other plants involved.  Just the fact that they were threatened was proof enough for me...otherwise, if it had been a hoax...the threats would have never happened.  By the way, again, this is my girl friends family.  

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-07-2007 10:07 PM).]

Ringo
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 02-20-2003
Posts 3696
Saluting with misty eyes


6 posted 08-07-2007 09:16 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

This is not a good thing (he says stating the completely obvious). I live not that far from Potstown, Pa, and my best friend actually does live there. I am going to have to take this to her when I see her in a couple of weeks.

What would you attempt to do...if you knew you could not fail?.
www.myspace.com/mindlesspoet

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


7 posted 08-07-2007 09:30 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Neither do I...Ringo...and it's not just Pottstown...there are landfills all over the place, including the ocean....??????  I sat down in NJ on the beach, watching those great big tankers out on the horizon, and I asked someone who had been a commerical fisherman for years, what those tankers were...he said, garbage ships, out of New York City, dumping garbage every day into the ocean.  Believe it!!!!!

and, I found out about a year ago, where I live, 3 families came down with a fatal kind of cancer, they all lived right aside of each other...since then our community announced in the paper that there is arsnic in our water, but very low levels of it.

Whenever they report something like this, they always say, very low levels...
and yetwhen speaking of the effects of any toxin, I once heard a scientist say..."any level of radiation, or any other toxin, is not a safe level"...I've never forgotten that.
We can't avoid radiation...it is in the ground and called radon, it also shoots out at us from the sun...but my questions is, what is American communties doing that other communities all over the world isn't doing, b/c they certainly do not have the many cancers that we are establishing here in this country.  

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


8 posted 08-07-2007 07:40 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Leej,

My gripes still stand, none of which have you addressed with any type of evidence:

The website posits two known facts and extrapolates a conclusion that links the two when there is no evidence to support the link

The website suggests that company officials and people in public office are colluding to purposefully pollute.

The website proactively canvases against local industrial development and possible pollution issues rather than concentrating on reduction or elimination on a national or global level.

Concrete bridges collapsing and pollution arenít even remotely linked whether you look at them through green or rose tinted spectacles.

quote:
Concrete doesn't last forever...


Maybe not but the Coliseum and Pantheon should give us a little confidence that it does last longer than a couple of decades.

quote:
I don't believe you went through the website I posted thoroughly


I thought I had but maybe I missed the parts that answered the above gripes, if you point them out to me Iíll gladly look at them and reassess my original position where necessary.


quote:
By the way, on our local news yesterday, (ABC ACTION NEWS)they reported that plastic bottles can cause cancers


Did it go something like this:

Many are unaware of poisoning caused by re-using plastic bottles. Some of you may be in the habit of using and re-using your disposable mineral water bottles (eg. Evian, Aqua, Ice Mountain, Vita, etc), keeping them in your car or at work. Not a good idea. In a nutshell, the plastic (called polyethylene terephthalate or PET) used in these bottles contains a potentially carcinogenic element (something called diethylhydroxylamine or DEHA).

The bottles are safe for one-time use only; if you must keep them longer, it should be or no more than a few days, a week max, and keep them away from heat as well. Repeated washing and rinsing can cause the plastic to break down and the carcinogens (cancer- causing chemical agents)can leach into the water that YOU are drinking. Better to invest in water bottles that are really meant for multiple uses. This is not something we should be scrimping on. Those of you with family - please advise them, especially for their children's sake."


The above is an email hoax thatís been bouncing around the Internet for months. Ití does have a slight toehold in reality in that bisphenol A  (BPA), used in the manufacture of some plastics has been detected in humans and humans get cancer. A small minority of scientists (headed by Frederick vom Saal) believe there is some correlation between the two, a larger majority say no correlation exists and most sensible people are waiting for concrete evidence either way.

quote:
Do you realize, how many cancer causing agents you injest in your body every day


Actually I do Ė none.

I ingest a whole heap of stuff that may increase the risk of me getting cancer but there isnít one that is guaranteed to cause cancer.

quote:
a chemical biologist friend of ours told us, that there is no proof as to how long chemicals stay in the ground.


Your chemical biologist friend is either being misquoted or is trying to muddy the waters. The decomposition rate of compounds is so well known itís even given a name - half-life -, the half-life of DDT for instance is between 2 and 15 years. In simple terms a quantity of DDT will decompose by half its original quantity in a maximum of 15 years depending on circumstances. That half-life is reduced to 56 days in lake water and 28 days in river water.

quote:
Now you have chemicals being thrown into golf course ponds and lakes to keep the weeds and algie under control...which kill


Are you saying the algae or the chemicals kill fish?

Either way youíd be right, manmade lakes are particularly prone to algae growth, if left unchecked the algae will deplete the oxygen levels in the water killing the fish. Chemicals can be used to control the algae however there are several risks involved if the algae growth has been left to get out of hand. For one the amount of chemicals used has to be increased which increases the risk to fish stock. In addition the decomposing algae killed by the chemicals can release toxins into the water, which in turn increases the chance of killing the fish. My suggestion, if you want the fish to survive, is to lobby for more frequent chemical application to control the algae.

quote:
No, this web site if FACT


No, this website has two facts, cancer is increasing and so is pollution, what it doesnít have is any evidence that the two are related.

quote:
Walk into any cancer center today and ask them, how many children are suffering from these diseses...many more then years ago...many more diseases...think about it


Iíve thought about it, I think cancer diagnosis has improved, that more children have access to health care and that cancer levels may be increasing but if I ask scientists whatís causing the possible increase Iím fairly sure theyíll say they donít know for sure.

quote:
Grinch, say what you want, but you have no idea?  We Americans are so misinformed but if you start to think about it...


Humbug! Iíve lots of ideas which, Iím fairly sure, donít have anything to do with the fact that Iím not American.        

quote:
It is a fact that cancers and diseases are of epidemic porportions in the U.S. today...yet, in Asian countries, it is not, why?  It is not from 2nd hand smoke b/c Asians smoke way more then American's do.


I donít know but do find that interesting because some Asian countries are among the biggest polluters, the United States, China, Japan, India, South Korea and Australia, account for around half the globe's greenhouse gases.

quote:
So grinch and anyone else, mock if you will, but the facts are researchable


Iím not mocking anything or anyone Iím simply questioning statements presented as facts which donít seem to make sense when the most rudimentary research is undertaken.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


9 posted 08-07-2007 09:45 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Grinch
Good evening
You may think what you want...but this couple, who own the web site, are relatives of a friend of mine...they got the landfill closed down...

Proof enough...

as far as your other statements...I stand as said before...

yes, concrete doesn't last forever, it has a life span of 17 - 20 years on a concrete road...bridges maybe 31 - 36 years. depending on weather, heaving and thawing of ground..the more severe the winter, the more the ground will heave and thaw...stress factors of over crowded roads, not expected 40 years ago when the bridges were designed.

Do you really think that PA State Inspector was telling me stories...when I was working construction?  I think not.

Also took part in fighting all those chemicals going into the lakes...up north...we lost, yanno why, b/c the majority of the people were from NY and NJ, they didn't care about the fish, they wanted crystal clear lakes, they said, they paid for a home on a lake that they wanted to swim in...so they got it.

As far as my ex-husbands friend making that statement about chemicals in the ground, we have two different views then, and that same question was bought up at work, actually yesterday, and not by me, and the answer was they don't know.

No, actually ABC Action News on channel six did not report that, but, it was similar...and yes, you are correct, the substance was BPA...there is information about it on the internet...I found out at work today, this is something that's been studied for years...and it isn't some plastic containers, but all, milk and water containers...and plastic containers that you microwave food in, they said, if the substance is heated, it breaks down much faster.  

As far as DDT is concerned....

If you test the soil in temperate climates where the average temperature is milder, this decade or two stretches out to 3 or 4 decades might be the life span of DDT...it is not yet known...

In cool dry sand, I saw the number 150 years -- although that has to be suspect because DDT was not widely available until 1945-1950 (after World
War II).

DDT wasn't the chemical used in our lakes...it was a combination of several chemicals...and they did in fact kill the fish...a rep from the company came and addressed the community, said there were several chemicals involved...also said, it would be safe to swim in 3 hours after treatment...3 hours after treatment, fish started floating all over the place, again..huge bass, pike, pickeral, muskie...all at one time...dead, floating on top of the lake..as I stated...hundreds of fish were floating....hundreds...I saw it with my own eyes...I saw the men come in boats with 55 gallon drums and fill maybe 8 - 10  of them with dead fish...I remember sitting there crying my eyes out...I'm saying the chemicals killed the fish...we called several environmental agencies...they wouldn't come out... If the lake is shallow and sun hits the bottom..algae will grow at an alarming rate...I lived on that lake for 20 years, studied it...the chemicals killed the fish...not the algae...the lake was a natural phenominon...it completely refilled itself 3 times a week, (turned over water) so oxygen levels were at a premium, despite the algie.....we had over 23 natural springs in that lake. The chemical company came to treat it 3 - 6 times a summer...and if they treated it once, and it didn't work well, they came back again...and retreated it.  Fish were fine, until they started treating the lake...No Sir, you are wrong...the chemicals they used at that time were not fit and there is no way of telling how long they stay in the ground....we took a sheet to our friend of each chemical that was used....

You have your opinion, I have mine, and most of it first hand and hands on experience...

and I beg to differ hugely sir...as chemical use in natural lakes are not safe...but they use them all over the place...all over the coutry...where ever the grass carp are illegal...grass carp grow up to 30 lbs and eat 1/3 of their body weight a day.  Bob Hope introduced them into gold course ponds.  

Grinch, Thanks so much for responding and for taking the time to give me serious well thought out opinions...but I disagree with you on many of these subjects...

and one more time Grinch...

as far as the website...yes indeed, they fought it, and said, not in our back yard...people all over that town were getting sick...very sick...cancers, other diseases, it became apparant over the years...and there were other factors besides the landfill, I believe there was a foundary, and other plants involved.  Just the fact that they were threatened was proof enough for me...otherwise, if it had been a hoax...the threats would have never happened.  By the way, again, this is my girl friends family. I commend them for their brave endeavors to bring this to the public....and getting that landfill shut down.

And the tankers dumping garbage in the ocean, is going on all along the eastern seaboard...




Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


10 posted 08-08-2007 05:38 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


LeeJ

quote:
Hey Grinch
Good evening
You may think what you want...but this couple, who own the web site, are relatives of a friend of mine...they got the landfill closed down...

Proof enough...


Proof of what? Itís certainly not proof that pollution causes cancer and the fact that theyíre relatives of a friend of yours doesnít mean anything. Iíve got friends who have relatives that believe in pixies but it doesnít make them right.

quote:
Do you really think that PA State Inspector was telling me stories...when I was working construction?  I think not.


Was the state inspector an expert on concrete structures and was he responsible for checking bridges and roads and declaring them fit or unfit for use?

If he was and he was doing his job right heíd be closing all the unfit roads and bridges instead of wandering about predicting Armageddon on the highway.

If he wasnít why the heck should you or I attach any credibility to what he says? Heís not even a relative of a friend.

quote:
As far as my ex-husbands friend making that statement about chemicals in the ground, we have two different views then, and that same question was bought up at work, actually yesterday, and not by me, and the answer was they don't know.


Chemicals decompose at known rates, that isnít my view itís a scientific fact, whether you, your friends, your ex-husbands friends and your friends relatives care to believe it or not.

quote:
and it isn't some plastic containers, but all, milk and water containers...and plastic containers that you microwave food in, they said, if the substance is heated, it breaks down much faster.


No it isnít, BPA is only found in some plastics and the lining of some canned foods and a couple of scientists have suggested that it may be linked to cancer but no conclusive evidence either way is yet available.

quote:
As far as DDT is concerned....

If you test the soil in temperate climates where the average temperature is milder, this decade or two stretches out to 3 or 4 decades might be the life span of DDT...it is not yet known... In cool dry sand, I saw the number 150 years


Iím not sure how to answer this without repeating myself but Iíll try anyway.

Chemicals decompose based on a figure called their half life, if you take DDT and use the upper limit of decomposition then in 15 years half the material will have decomposed. In another 15 years half (1/4 of the original amount) of the remaining material will have decomposed and in another 15 years half of whatís left will decompose (1/8) and so on until the amount left is small enough to be classified as virtually zero (or trace amounts).

Claiming that we donít know how long chemicals stay in the ground is simply not true.

As far as DDT and the lake is concerned I never suggested it was the chemical used, DDT has after all been banned for at least 3 decades. Itís more likely that they used something like Terbutryn or a similar herbicide. As I pointed out earlier not treating the algae will kill the fish just as surely as over treating with herbicide but correct use of the herbicide wonít harm the fish at all.

quote:
No Sir, you are wrong


You disagree that algae can kill fish? Or that correct herbicide use can kill algae without harming fish? Or that the incorrect application of herbicide can kill fish? Those are the statements I made, you tell me where you think I went wrong and Iíll be happy to discuss it further.

quote:
and I beg to differ hugely sir...as chemical use in natural lakes are not safe...but they use them all over the place...all over the coutry...where ever the grass carp are illegal...grass carp grow up to 30 lbs and eat 1/3 of their body weight a day.  Bob Hope introduced them into gold course ponds.


Iíve only one thing to say to that Ė Bufo marinus.

How someone can wax lyrical about protecting the environment and then in the next breath suggest introducing a none idigenous species into the local ecology is beyond me.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


11 posted 08-08-2007 08:02 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Iíve only one thing to say to that Ė Bufo marinus.

How someone can wax lyrical about protecting the environment and then in the next breath suggest introducing a none idigenous species into the local ecology is beyond me.

yes, indeed, I think it is beyond you...Grinch...your the one who lives in Whoville????  

the fish are legal in most states, just not the ones the chemical companies own.  

have a great day  
http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/bpa041505.cfm
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Plasticizers/Out-Of-Diet-PG5nov03.htm

how many of these plastic containers do you think are laying in land fills?
http://library.thinkquest.org/06aug/02342/websitefinal/disposal.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20109176/
http://www.sixwise.com/display/router.aspx?DocID=745

now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go do the dishes...hang the wash up on the line (barefooted) clean, do the grocery shopping, and all those things a woman does, yanno?

See ya


[This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-09-2007 06:37 AM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


12 posted 08-09-2007 07:50 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch



LeeJ

quote:
the fish are legal in most states, just not the ones the chemical companies own


It isnít the chemical companies and money that dictates whether the fish are introduced itís got more to do with the application of common sense.

Grass carp originally came from slow moving rivers in China and are none selective feeders, they donít just eat the algae that clogs the lakes they eat almost any aquatic vegetation they can get their little rubbery lips on. You said yourself grass carp grow up to 30 pounds and eat vegetation at the rate of 1/3 of their body weight a day, what do they eat when theyíve finished munching on the algae? And what effect does that have on native species of flora and fauna in a finely balanced ecosystem?

Now Iíve got all my gripes out of the way I thought it only fair to mention my own views on pollution.

Pollution is a problem and we are responsible

When I say problem I mean it in the broad sense that pollution by definition is a bad thing, the word itself means a contamination of something good. I donít need to enhance the wrongness of pollution by attempting to tie it to cancer, dead fish or falling bridges, pollution by its own definition is enough to elevate it to the status of Ďa problemí.

When I say we I mean you, me, the chemical companies, the owners of landfill sites, government officials and every man woman and child that inhabits this planet. In this definition the collective Ďweí is non-divisible, the owner of a chemical plant is no more or less to blame than you or I, we are all in this together and equally responsible.

When I say responsible I mean it in a dual sense, I am as responsible for the pollution from landfill as the landfill owner because I created some of the trash the landfill owner is trying to dispose of. You are as responsible as the chemical plant owners because you created the demand that makes those plants necessary. The second way we should be responsible is when it comes to reducing the problem and thatís when the Ďweí becomes extremely important because that can only be achieved if everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet.

Now itís my turn to hang out the washing (barefoot of course), have a pleasant evening and thanks for the chance to read and reply.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


13 posted 08-10-2007 06:43 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Grinch....
Your wrote this....
It isnít the chemical companies and money that dictates whether the fish are introduced itís got more to do with the application of common sense.

Grass carp originally came from slow moving rivers in China and are none selective feeders, they donít just eat the algae that clogs the lakes they eat almost any aquatic vegetation they can get their little rubbery lips on. You said yourself grass carp grow up to 30 pounds and eat vegetation at the rate of 1/3 of their body weight a day, what do they eat when theyíve finished munching on the algae? And what effect does that have on native species of flora and fauna in a finely balanced ecosystem?


Seems as though you are an expert on everything...I'm impressed!

What you've written above is true, and the first case senerio when the grass carp were first introduced to lakes, many years ago...but they only have a life span of 7 - 10 years...and aquatic weeds and algae grow at an alarming rate when in fact the sun hits the bottoms of these water ways...

in the years that have passed, they have learned, grass carp to be effective, in keeping aquatic weeds and algae under control....in all states that they have been introduced them, they have had a positive result...and, farms that raise them, right here in the U.S. steralize them so they cannot reproduce for those who fear them getting out of control.  Our waterways, due to pollution, are not ecologically balanced...therefore even the crayfish couldn't keep up with the weeds...when you introduce chemicals into waterways to control weeds, you start killing micor organisums which feed other small feeder fish, and then the larger fish die, along with cray fish, and then the minnows, and on up the chain.  

and yes, the chemical companies DO MOST certainly own the Poconos, most certainly do indeed.  They are owned by the same people who own all our garbage companies....

I have to say, you are a well informed person, but when we are passionate about something, we can always find the right words to prove our point...

it doesn't necessarily make us right or wrong....and personally, in some of these issues, it comes down to a little bit of common sense, and the ability to see an issue from both sides...we're not always right...what we are though, is full of opinions...

all we can do is keep trying to work together, trying different ways and see which one works the most cost effectively, without ourselves in mind, but the entire nation...a lot of people cannot do that...unfortunatly,in most cases, money talks...big time...

I think people view these issues as being more expensive to solve then it's worth to them, individually, therefore, they figure, while they're here, they are going to get every thing they can out of life...and when decissions are made with money in mind for sole purpose of getting rich, they are not always in the best of choice for the entire community.  I've worked a lot of jobs and positions in my life time and seen a whole lot of under the table stuff...so I stand my ground...and still try to see things thru rose colored glasses...

Yes, there are a lot of good people out there trying to do what is right, but not enough...there are more people in this country who are individualists, who only worry about theirs....and not the effects of the whole body of man.  All those ripples do have huge effects on man, yanno?

and when it comes to pollution, I DO  Link it to cancer, YES INDEED...not only because we are exposed to pollution, but many other factors which include exposures to chemicals from many other sources...waterways, chemicals just from blacktop, chemicals in swimming pools to keep them clean, chemicals in our food, chemicals in our drinking water, in the air we breath, in the silver fillings in your teeth, your toothpaste, your laundry detergents, clorox, amonia, not to mention all the hormones we injest, the insecticides, that shinny stuff to keep apples looking clean and so bright you can almost see yourself in them....in addition to land fills and waterways...it is the result of everything linking it together, linking us together...linking sicknesses together...everything is connected by an intricate balance....'

Just to give you an example....my ex was a hydraulic engineer...he was called to a chicken producing factory....do you know, a chicken from the time it is born, lives on a conveyor belt?  From the time it hatches until the time it is slaughtered and due to supply and demand, they are fed hormones to make them grow faster, plus other chemicals in their food...they feed chickens today, disgusting things which are made into pellets for chicken food.  Same with pigs, pigs will eat anything....

Anyway, that is why chickens no longer have the flavor, color or smell or texture that free range chickens had years ago.  Did you know, they even inject chicken parts with dyes to give it that yellow color that free range chickens had years ago? We're injesting all those chemicals.

Beef...a friend of mine, raises beef.  He feeds them no chemicals what so ever....simply grazed beef that are fed grain...when he butchers, he cannot keep enough to supply the amount of people who buy from him and word has spread...they are very good eating.  

But today, even beef and pigs are manufactured and fed chemicals to make them grow faster...same with pork...it is now, a matter of supply and demand.

You can't get the quality of farm raised animals in our grocery stores anymore...and I say that b/c both my uncles raised cattle, chicken, turkeys, pigs...and we had fresh milk....there is nothing like farm raised animals...without chemicals being shoved into them...oh, and fresh milk and butter, lard...  Fresh baked pies and cakes, home made noodles and breads that didn't contain preservatives....

and our gardens...do you know we used to can over 300 jars a year...pickles, tomatoes, tomatoe juice...sauce...corn, peaches, apple filling for pies, applesauce, pickles, fresh blueberries, wild berries, cherries, grapes ( my pop pop made his own wine....we also did up sweet and sour water melon rind...not to mention, froze a lot of corn off the cob for the winter, and all our other veggies such as limas, peas, brocolli, and califlower, oh, and sunflower seeds...all grown in the garden and dried all our spices and jellies and jams....all without insecticides & chemicals.  

I carried over that culture for many years...and now, since I've had to have two knee replacements and I'm single, full time job, helping to care for my mother, it's way to much work anymore...got rid of all my canning jars and equipment a long time ago..it is a lost art.

Whole different world today....full of pollutants, chemicals, drugs, quick fixes for supply and demand.  Growth hormones for our food...agriculture is becoming a lost art..way to many people, it's all about supply and demand now...and the quickest and cheapest way to meet that demand.

No Grinch, I totally disagree with you...but you certainly do raise a big eyebrow of arguments...good show!

thanks for the discussion...interesting and fun...

Lee J.

[This message has been edited by LeeJ (08-10-2007 07:29 AM).]

Grinch
Member Elite
since 12-31-2005
Posts 2710
Whoville


14 posted 08-12-2007 02:30 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Seems as though you are an expert on everything


An EX is a has-been and a SPURT is a drip under pressure.

A has-been drip under pressure?

Yep sums me up perfectly.

LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


15 posted 08-13-2007 12:01 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

You most certainly are not...you've bought some very interesting debates to the table...and challenged me respectfully and aptly...lets do this again soon...

Hugs
Creme
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


16 posted 08-17-2007 09:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Must be Stalin
or Satan behind it all . . .

.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> For Liz Santos, & Everyone, Please Read Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors