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simply posted for thought

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Balladeer
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25 posted 07-27-2007 07:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Some folk are against immigrants of any kind, apparently like Mike (since he's arguing that Rome's legal immigrants were a bad thing),

Cute twist, Ron...you da man!
Huan Yi
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26 posted 07-27-2007 08:05 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


A problem will arise
if immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American,
and feel instead they deserve to remain as they are
because America owes them
like Americans.


.
LeeJ
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27 posted 07-27-2007 08:16 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Brad and Grinch, you've made some very good points thank you...

in one of your statements you say, it's the way Lamm worded his statement..
well take me for instance....I get really passionate about the issue I'm talking about, I can't help it...and I tend to not word things right all the time...so there ya go...it's not that I mean harm, it just comes out wrong sometimes...my expression I mean...well, maybe he didn't mean it the way it sounded either? But I do understand what your saying, which also puts a strain on people who want to express but fear not being politically correct, which in turn, the name calling starts and people walk away hurt, angry...and nothing is learned or accomplished, not to mention walking on egg shells every time a body opens his/her mouth?

Also, even though we're having a great influx of people of Mexican decent...there are also other illegals from other countries which I'm aluding to...and yes, the fact that there are a great number also scare me, but I realize, we fear what we don't understand, as well.  Brad, my aunt and her friend told me, due to this, so many different nationalities who are illegal...forming gangs fighting for streets and drug sales...????  They were afraid to go out...they really were.

I'm still for obeying the law...in this case especially, seems our judicial system is being eroded by so many who want to twist the law to their liking or political agenda and that is very dangerous, isn't it.  

thanks sincerly for explaining...

You did good Brad...LOL
LeeJ
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28 posted 07-27-2007 08:23 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

John
A problem will arise
if immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American, and feel instead they deserve to remain as they are because America owes them
like Americans.

Yes, there ya go, there is another fear, wait...I am going to give you another example


ok, I'm back...here ya go....
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=2559ßionid=3510203

this is bad, very bad...and this is what really scares people, this kind of behavior....
a perfect example of what I mean, yet, if I speak up in fear, I'm called a racist...???  Yanno, I don't believe there are a lot of people who Like Bush, but I also believe  not many people would act like this towards him here in America...

I dunno, this just isn't right?  Then why are they here?  And again, I know some who are really wonderful decent people, but they are legal...

I knew some who were illegal and they dealt drugs...and they scared me...they were very forward...and when they were in groups, they wolf hollored, yanno?  Thats not right either.

Oh, I forgot to tell you, I waitressed part time and of course they all worked there...some were very nice, and I loved them...but others scared me.
TomMark
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29 posted 07-27-2007 08:54 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

Huan Yi,

****If immigrants fail to assimilate, becoming American****

What is American?
My friend from Thailand is working in JPL...has an important role in space shuttle launch. Her daughter went to West Point and served a year in Iraq. Her son followed her daughter (big sister) went to Iraq now for a year. They cook, eat Thai food daily and live in a Thai Culture.  Is there a problem?

My Irish friends have their own culture activates at weekend.
Jewish friends enjoy their kosher food.

Why a problem if they do not bother others eating hamburger and fries?

Grinch
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30 posted 07-27-2007 08:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

LeeJ,

quote:
in one of your statements you say, it's the way Lamm worded his statement..


Itís not how he worded his statement itís his suggestion that language and cultural differences are to blame when the root cause is plainly that one or more of the races involved donít like the other. He is in effect promoting the very thing that is guaranteed to destroy your nation Ė racism Ė while at the same time trying to convince you that itís the only way to save your nation.

Being labelled a racist seems to be a little harsh I know but being racist is a little like being pregnant, you either are or you arenít and when someone starts to argue against a group of people using generalisations like language and culture itís hard to attach any conclusion other than the arguments are based on race and by definition racist.

Itís unclear what you are arguing against if itís not the immigrantsí race, you mentioned the legality of their entrance into your country. So if they all entered legally in the same numbers and paid taxes would your fears suddenly disappear? Or are you simply saying that you donít feel comfortable with a load of foreigners, legal or otherwise, moving into your country?

Put it another way, which would you honestly prefer illegal Canadians or legal Mexican immigrants?

I said honestly.  

LeeJ
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31 posted 07-27-2007 09:16 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

quote:
Itís not how he worded his statement itís his suggestion that language and cultural differences are to blame when the root cause is plainly that one or more of the races involved donít like the other. He is in effect promoting the very thing that is guaranteed to destroy your nation Ė racism Ė while at the same time trying to convince you that itís the only way to save your nation.


well, I disagree and of course I'll explain why...language is a problem...it's difficult communicating with them...frustrating to say the least...they can't read when they drive, there are a lot of accidents b/c they can't read, they don't obtain drivers licenses that are legal b/c they can't read, and they of course don't aquire insurance (not good)...it costs this nation more money to appease them by printing bilingual directions and signs, and hire bilingual teachers, now police officers need to have Spanish, as well as our emergency care workers...it creates more problems all the way around.  I mean,  if I want to be in another country, that is the first thing I'd do, is learn the language...I'd have to?  
Again, how would my friend who came to this country have been able to put herself through college if she didn't learn the language, and she did, and she was so happy and proud to become a citizen...but the language barrier is just that, a great imposition and large cost and strain on everyone.  On everyone that has to deal with them on some level, even in emergency situations....  

quote:
Being labelled a racist seems to be a little harsh I know but being racist is a little like being pregnant, you either are or you arenít and when someone starts to argue against a group of people using generalisations like language and culture itís hard to attach any conclusion other than the arguments are based on race and by definition racist.
  

a little harsh to say the least, when I think of a racist, I picture Archie Bunker, and I am not even related.  and no, my arguments are not based on race...I said before, illegal immigrants are from other contries, so naturally they are from many different cultures..there are many illegal cultures here, but not all of them are as fearless as the Mexicans.  Some actually do possess guilt for what they are doing, b/c they are wrong...as we would be if we went to another country and did the same thing. Diversity is fine, as long as it doesn't give one rights over another...there is not equality with this...the best man doesn't get the job....yanno?

quote:
Itís unclear what you are arguing against if itís not the immigrantsí race,

illegal = something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation, which in this case is against the law...years ago, people were actually deported if they didn't have a green card.  They also respected the laws...when laws are ignored, people think they are above the law...which in turn causes big trouble for everyone.

  
quote:
you mentioned the legality of their entrance into your country. So if they all entered legally in the same numbers and paid taxes would your fears suddenly disappear? Or are you simply saying that you donít feel comfortable with a load of foreigners, legal or otherwise, moving into your country?


I have no problem with it, if they go through the legal system and do it the legal way...no acceptions...and they must learn to speak english, read and write...why wouldn't you want to do that?

Listen, here's an example...I got a traffic ticket for speeding.  That is against the law...my son's a cop, I could have used him to get out of the ticket...it was against the law and I was wrong...it was early in the morning and I was not paying attention...so I deserved to pay the fine...and I did...

quote:
Put it another way, which would you honestly prefer illegal Canadians or legal Mexican immigrants?


Canadian men would still wolf whistle, especially if they were in a group, instead of saying ahhhh, chica...they'd say...in French, something very romantic, but it would still scare me....meaning, neither...honestly...its wrong to be an illegal.

maybe this will help you understand my culture...there is no way, I'd go to another country and expect to work without becoming a part of the community, the working community...there is no way I would not feel guilty if I didn't pay my way, and I would want to fit in...be a part of the community...be liked...so why would I want to break their laws...I just couldn't even be so bold as to have it any other way??????  It just wouldn't be right?  I couldn't do it, no matter how poor I was, how hungry I was...I'd want to do my part...and give back to the community that was kind enough to hire me and give me that opportunity...it would be a great priviledge...and believe me, there was a time, I was thinking of doing it.

Grinch, I do appreciate your patience and kindness in explaining...you've brought out some very thought provoking points, and this is what makes this issue so confounded  hard...but in the end...I really do believe there are less racists on this subject then you'd like to believe...it's just that the issue is a heated one...and touches some very delicate spots on both sides...

The reason I posted this man's speech was because it really scared me...cuz it is happening now...you disagreed, you made me feel badly, by calling me a racist, saying I was politically incorrect....and from the replys I guess everyone was thinking I was just like this man...when what I wanted was your comments on the events he was discussing....

another thing, you state that this problem exists b/c the races do not like each other...well, I'm going to tell you something...when you've worked all your life since you were 13 years old, you've gone by the book, paid taxes, paid medical expenses, and struggled like anything...and someone else comes in, and gets everything handed to them...gets a cut in taxes, doesn't have to speak your language, your culture starts creating things in his language...well, I start scratching my head, and yeah, people are definately going to get a chip on their shoulder, regardless of his nationality...after a while, you say, what in the heck have I been working for all my life, now I gotta appease all these other folks...you start feeling  used...it doesn't fit right, yanno.

Everytime I open my mouth to contribute to a subject or issue, like this one, I must be very careful that someone else may take it wrong, and stuff outa my mouth is usually taken the wrong way anyway.... this isn't fair to us either...and is in a way...racist against us...what I mean is, just because you don't always agree with me, doesn't make me right and you wrong, or visa versa, they are opinions...and if we sit down, and discuss, maturely, maybe this world would get jiggy with it?  
do I make any sense?



rwood
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32 posted 07-27-2007 09:53 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
You are falling into the same trap again, Regina.  You speak of the immigrants who built America and he, and others, speak of the illegal ones who climb fences and dig tunnels to get in. Don't you see that there's a difference???? Do you think illegal immigrants sneak in because of their love for America?...or is it more likely they know it's a cash cow, a place where they can make more money that ever before and send it back to their families? I don't fault them for that but where is their allegiance? When legal immigrants receive their papers, they recite the Pledge of Allegiance....pledging allegiance to the flag and to the United States of America. Do they all mean it? Who knows but at least they recite it and were respectful enough of our laws to obtain their residency legally. Where is the illegal's allegiance? If the time of crisis came where America had to stand up and all Americans do their part to defend their country and way of life, would the illegals stand up also or would it be a "hasta la vista, baby" on their way outta here?


No Mike. Iím not in any trap. Check yourself.

He stated: "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

I read: LEGAL and ILLEGAL. Which means every known walk of foreigner in our nation.  He didnít differentiate. He culled.

Now, about the people who are illegally here. If I break the law, I pay or lose my privileges. I earned myself a whopping $150 speeding ticket just the other day. I took it like a real Woman Driver should! I was clocked and caught and I will pay up or lose my license. Period. Those hiring illegal workers should pay or lose their licenses to conduct business or better yet, liquidate them and their assets if they are repeat offenders. Period. I canít walk in and arrest them. Itís the Governmentís JOB to do their job! Iím paying my taxes. Weíve all hired someone to protect our borders and to monitor the tables on employment. I feel like we're being tricked into a ďweed em-outĒ mentality. It gets thing done cheap, by keeping us busy fighting amongst ourselves, while they put our money in places uh-like their pension plans.

Cash Cow? Are we being milked and bilked by aliens? How about our own home grown
government? Our defense is concentrated on foreign soil, right now.  If we have so much concern about the drain from foreigners, then why are we out there playing world cop instead of concentrating on our own nationís mismanagement? Iím not excusing anyone taking advantage of anything, Iím just refusing to make foreigners own up to all our problems.

0020,mmmmmmmmmmkí  My new puppy just typed that. He must have something to say, too.

The Pledge of Allegiance? If that makes us united, then millions of Americans better go back and learn it.  

quote:
Yes, Regina, America IS about opportunity. One could say there is plenty of opportunity for criminals to rob banks, too....does that make it right?


We robbed this land to start with, if you want to focus on whatís wrong. Whatís right is diplomacy. Not supremacy or discrimination bred forth in a lottery of fear.

Americans should study well, the Roman Empire. In the end, diversity still managed to exist, culturally, but I believe it was the absence of the value of human life that did them in. They exploited the strong & brave to keep the starving poor, entertained!

quote:
Interesting comparison. Let's ask the Italians how they felt about gypsies, or any of the other European nations that hunted them down and expelled them. Why? Because they were only takers who had no allegiance or feelings other than taking advantage of the countries for what they could take away. Perhaps you could have suggest to these countries that they should have invested more in education and training....but not to their faces and not from a close proximity.  


If they are blaming any other people for crushing their opportunities, yes. I will face them. Because I would like to know how someone stopped them from utilizing their own mind to take advantage of the privileges provided for them. Iím not afraid to ask anyone a valid question. Maybe most are afraid of the answers.


LeeJ~
quote:
Regina, I'm sorry that you are upset...but Deer is absolutely right....and the minute people come out and try and explain what is happening b/c of this, they are called racists and bigots...????? RE read what Lamm said...it is politically inncorrect, and yet, it's ok to come into this country illegally, drain it's resourses and not contribute a cent to this nation.  That is like you opening up your doors to me, a stranger and saying, come on in...and take everything I've worked so hard for...and leave nothing in return...when you have people working against each other and not with each other, you will have big problems when they begin to colonize.  I am genuinally afraid of what is happening here...


Iím not upset. Iím just challenging the attitude directed at foreign people. What ought to really upset everyone is how many Americans are draining our economy. What? Weíre American, so we have a right to? People are people, not insects, even if we act like it sometimes. Youíre a strong woman. Face your fears. Know who you are and know your worth as a human being who is just as important as the next. Stay abreast of proposed solutions and donít become part of the problem by generalizing and spreading mass miscommunication in the form of discriminating propaganda and ill-proposed strategies. You're right. This is a serious problem that calls for serious action, not a wild horse posse crazed with hate. That's what worries me.

I don't want people jumping on other people because they are "brown" and they must be Mexican, and they must be illegal! I bet many are accused of being here illegally when they aren't. How do we know? Do we go around like the Gestapo and ask for papers based upon their accent or racial profiling??

The article disturbs me because he basically states that people should shed their culture like dirty underwear.

You first.

TomMark
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33 posted 07-27-2007 09:57 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

LeeJ,
When one talks about the impact of illegal Ėimmigrant on US economy, social stability or reforming of culture, one must use solid figures to present the situation. If you use biased single or three cases to generalize   a problem then it  is very easy to get into the trap of prejudice.
LeeJ
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34 posted 07-27-2007 10:19 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Regina, your darn right I am a strong woman, and I have worked very hard to accomplish that...


I have many friends who are legal immigrants even Mexican, and they all feel the same way I do except for one...and that one steals merchandise, from her boss....and place of employment...the others are very successful people....

I will fight for legal immigration and I don't care how many millions of them come here, as long as they come here legally and are documented and pay their share along with the rest of us?  

And yes, there are American's who also take advantage of the system which I written about no, been very vocal about, but Regina, two wrongs do not make a right...it is clearly unfair...and wrong...

Would you do it?

Would you abuse the system....

Would you expect to be able to get free services...

Regina, you are a very intelligent woman, and I don't see you as a person who would take advantage of the system or if you had to, you'd pay back every red cent.  I've read your poetry.  

This is not about racism...it is though about the way I was raised...and I wasn't raised to take free hand outs...from anyone...

I have a neighbor, he's a low life...and If I were not living here he'd be taking money from my mom.  Yes indeed, my mom is wrong...she has given away much money in her life and helped many a people, but unfortunately, she is very naieve, and believes everyone....this guy would be over here telling her sob stories and taking her money.  She is wrong for giving it, as is our government wrong for not upholding our laws...so they make them dependent upon us...point being...I loath anyone who can take money from someone else and not pay it back.  Everyone needs help at some point in their lives...but to depend on someone else to pay your bills is not a working member of the community and will eventually drain the funds or be it the systems.  It can never work that way...nor could I ever do that...we were taught to work hard for what we wanted, and I don't resent anything...period...but I do resent the fact that I've obeyed the laws and  if I didn't I'd have to pay the consequences...illegals don't.  Not fair...to the community, or whole body...
Thats not being racist, that is common sense...

To boot maybe if you'd consider this has been going on now for years...and years...and after a while it gets really frustrating...

Yes, go after those who are taking advantage of both sources, definately agree...
Even though we don't agree Regina...good post...well done!

LeeJ
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35 posted 07-27-2007 10:27 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Tom

When one talks about the impact of illegal Ėimmigrant on US economy, social stability or reforming of culture, one must use solid figures to present the situation. If you use biased single or three cases to generalize   a problem then it  is very easy to get into the trap of prejudice.

No, I used facts...not generalizations, but facts...which everyone knows it's true..it's not rocket science...and the cases are strong...and draining the economy...closing 3 hospitals in CA is not generalization...and that's what I believe Lamm means that will spread across the country...we have no money Tom....America is broke...I don't think we have a lot of money for social services....for things like FEMA, like homeland security, etc...it's all gone...so how in the world can we continue to take care of all these people...

Come here, work, but get youself legal, pay your share of taxes and earn the right to vote and be a member of the rest of the community.

I'm telling you, I apologize for sounding ignorant...but I can't understand this free hand out stuff...where does that come from and how can people continue to believe it's not going to have an effect on everyone?  
Not to mention, all these illegal immigrants kids in schools, my God, they don't have to pay taxes yet we're building more and more schools, additions to schools...how long can the average citizen afford to carry this load on his own, and to boot, is it any wonder a lot of people are angry...this is money out of their pockets, and they've already paid for their kids.  Again people, this is not about 10 or a simply 20 or even 100 people...your talkin thousands, now multiply that by 1 or two kids...????  Do the math?  
Taxes are unreal...why?  Look at the building of schools going on...look at how many classes are being held in Trailors...it is incredible...
I mean this sincerely, what can you be thinking?  Whose paying for all of this?  We are, and we're tired...and when we get to be old, what is going to be there for us...I'll still be working to take care of the illegals...(just kidding) but what's the average retirement age now...68?  72?  We work all our lives...don't you think it's hard enough, let alone our taxes are going up and up due to population and illegals flooding to this country.

And yeah, we came over here and took the land 200 years ago....but they didn't give handouts...everyone worked hard, and together and they learned one common language and it worked...and they were proud to be here and be American...I've heard all the stories from my grand parents...how my nana came over on a boat and was so scared, nothin but the dress on her back, and they hit a storm and the boat was delayed, they ran out of food and when she got here, she bought a pie off a vender and sat down on the street corner and ate the whole pie.  She from that point on, worked very hard...very hard...she learned the language...her husband was a cobbler, he made shoes...they grew their own fruits and vegtables and canned everything...worked their 1 acre garden...manually...never took a red cent from the government...
this is what we were taught...sorry, it's my culture...it's not racist...it's earning a fair and legal living...without straining someone else.


serenity blaze
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36 posted 07-27-2007 10:50 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

http://www.borderwarmovie.com/main.html

"The right sees this as cheap labor, the left sees this as cheap votes..."

"What you've got is a perfect storm..."

quotes from the trailer above.

I'm trying to find now, the text from a documentary I watched last week that stated that illegal Mexicans alone, paid 5.9 billion dollars (I believe they said 2005 alone) into our social security system, via identity fraud. That's right. They paid into a system that will never pay them a dime. That kinda makes the "cash cow" moo both ways, don't it? (And hey? I'm also wondering how they can come up with a figure without knowing more--5.9--why not make it an even six, since we aren't prosecuting people giving us money anyway?)

And I am telling you all, those storm chasers? Kicked our homegrown roofing asses.

We admit it.

But this topic is meant for better minds than mine--but certainly, all should agree we can't have it both ways.

Well, not for much longer...
Ron
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37 posted 07-27-2007 11:20 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
...when you've worked all your life since you were 13 years old, you've gone by the book, paid taxes, paid medical expenses, and struggled like anything...and someone else comes in, and gets everything handed to them...gets a cut in taxes, doesn't have to speak your language, your culture starts creating things in his language...well, I start scratching my head, and yeah, people are definately going to get a chip on their shoulder, regardless of his nationality...after a while, you say, what in the heck have I been working for all my life, now I gotta appease all these other folks...you start feeling  used...it doesn't fit right, yanno.

No, actually, I don't know, Lee. I guess that means I didn't work all my life, go by the book, pay taxes, pay medical expenses, yada yada yada? Gee, maybe if I work a little harder and sacrifice a bit more, I can get a chip on my shoulder, too?

I spent about two hours tonight on the back deck watching hummingbirds. They're fascinating creatures, adorably cute and amazingly agile. Zoom, zoom! Hummingbirds are one of nature's true wonders, in my humble opinion. But they're also damnably aggressive and deplorably territorial. One bird, if he's able (or she, as females are just as dominating), will guard a feeder and run off any other hummer who dares to try using it. I've never watched a WWF bout, but I seriously doubt it would hold a candle to the battles that rage daily on my back deck. These birds are tough, mean, and unremitting.

I remember a few years back, when I put my first feeder on the back deck. I would honestly feel frustrated when this little male (I nicknamed him Napoleon) buzzed in incessant circles, chasing off all the other birds. So I fixed him. I moved the feeder to one corner of the deck awning and put a second feeder on the other corner. There was no way, I figured, Napoleon could possibly guard both. Today, I have seven feeders hanging strategically on my back deck, and I go through almost five gallons of nectar every week. I play host to a LOT of hummingbirds.

Here's the thing though. The thing I really don't understand.

They have seven feeders on the deck, a few others spread throughout the yard, an eight by eight foot garden of bee balm planted just for them, a trellis full of honeysuckles, a whole yard full of daylilies, and I even run a sprinkler every evening just so they can have their nightly shower -- and every single one of those birds, young and old, male and female, is a Napoleon, a Caesar, a Stalin, a Saddam Hussein. Their greed seemingly knows no limits. From early Spring to late Fall, I refill my feeders every day, sometimes twice a day, and no bird ever goes hungry. Yet each bird seems deathly afraid that another might get more than they do?

I guess I shouldn't expect birds to overcome the instincts that drive them. I shouldn't expect them to realize the resource limitations they apparently see are not real, that the fears they harbor are unfounded. No matter what they do with their lives, no matter what they don't do, there will always be more. I guess I shouldn't expect hummingbirds to understand a benevolence so apart from their small, tiny lives.

They're just birds, after all.

LeeJ
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38 posted 07-27-2007 11:39 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

well guys, thank you, you have made a very good point

Ron...incredible example...thank you

One question Karen

How did they pay 5.9 Bil into social securty?  Can you explain?  I ask you this b/c most of their employers pay them by cash and not checks...or am I being misled?

I'll watch the video Karen thanks
and thanks to all of you for a really incredible discussion.  

Ron
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39 posted 07-28-2007 12:05 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I ask you this b/c most of their employers pay them by cash and not checks...or am I being misled?

LOL. All this worry, Lee, and you don't even know how it works?

Remember, now, I lived in Southern California for twenty some years? Running restaurants the first several years I was in San Diego? Aside from the odd instance of paying someone for a once-off quick job, no one is going to pay a permanent employee under-the-table cash. It's illegal and, frankly, it's dumb because you can't deduct it as a cost of doing business. Businesses don't hire illegal immigrants, they hire regular employees and just fail to run in-depth background checks. Every employee has a Social Security number, else they don't work. Granted, there might be three or four people using the SAME SS number, but they nonetheless have it. By the time the Feds get around to telling a business there's a discrepancy, the worker usually has moved on to a new job. Whether they wanted to or not.

(I would guess those bogus SS numbers, Karen, are probably how someone out there guesstimated a six billion dollar figure. I suspect that figure is low.)

Most illegal immigrants, at least in SoCal, are paid by company check. They have FICA withheld at the same rate you and I pay. They have income and disability taxes withheld just like everyone else, though they usually claim so many dependents and make so LITTLE money the deductions don't often amount to much. It's not like they can get a refund check at the end of the year, though.


Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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Southern Abstentia


40 posted 07-28-2007 12:51 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I have a new puppy too Regina.  She immigrated to my urban home from an Amish farm.

She's been with me a couple of months now and she still doesn't speak the language.  

Here's the quandry though --

How do you deport all the illegal immigrants?

How do you create a guest worker program without creating a permanent underclass?

Why doesn't anyone state the obvious -- that cheap labor in the pacific rim (cheaper than available Mexican labor) has siphoned off jobs that Mexicans could be doing in Mexico -- which was the original intent of NAFTA.  

We don't allow American businesses to be predatory -- why are we putting up with the practice when it's coming from China?  

When people emigrate to come here, legally, that adds to our domestic market -- it grows the number of people who need to buy cars, houses, furnishings, food, etc. --but if they're all made in China?  That's the rub folks.
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


41 posted 07-28-2007 01:15 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

Ron, that may be true of Southern California, but it certainly is not true of Texas.  Oh, maybe the restaurant business and some manufacturing, but not the hundreds of different day workers who stand on street corners waiting to be picked up and given a cash job doing manual labor of some sort....there is a lot of that here in Texas.  It is a well known fact and I have to admit I've even been tempted to go pick up a couple of illegals to fix my roof, but I have not yielded and won't based on principle.  

The thing that most of you are forgetting is that subculture of illegals here.  I don't see anything wrong with legal immigration.  I'm not talking about the Central or South American countries alone.  Here in Houston, we have illegals from every nation in the world.  Many of them work for cash only and there are plenty of people here who are willing to help them.  For years, it was known that various different limosine services here helped illegal Middle Easterners; also, the valet services at most nightclubs and restaurants worked on a similar basis.  Don't believe me....well, I dated one of them before I was married; yes, he was looking for a green card.  What bothered me more than the fact that he was illegal was the stories I would hear about the brawls that would take place in the valet parking lots between Lebanonese and Jordanians or Iraqi or Iranian employees.  They literally brought their war here way back in the 80s and worked it out or not in our parking lots.  

When I was prepped to live overseas in a third world country, I was advised by my husband's personnel director that I would be representative of my country and that the example of my behavior while living there was important.  They encouraged me to assimilate -- when in Rome, do as the Romans.  I happen to believe the same respect is due our own nation. This is a nation of many cultures and we should appreciate and share our different cultures...however, I do not believe we should segregate over language in that language is the uniter.  King James knew this when he had the Bible retranslated.  Queen Elizabeth knew this when she had a common language drawn up for her empire with the assistance of Sir Francis Bacon.  Language unites or it divides.  I for one believe that anyone who wants to work or live here should do the same thing I was willing to do when I lived in another country, and that is to learn the predominate language.  Okay....I'm done.

[This message has been edited by iliana (07-28-2007 02:05 AM).]

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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42 posted 07-28-2007 01:37 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

*wince*

I just popped in to thank Ron for explaining Payroll.

(I failed FICA)



Well, it's prolly gonna fail me right back! pfffffffffffbbbbbbbbbllllt!
iliana
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since 12-05-2003
Posts 13488
USA


43 posted 07-28-2007 01:41 AM       View Profile for iliana   Email iliana   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for iliana

LOL, Ser.  

Gosh, if there is that much money coming in through payroll (even with the use of fake IDs), I cannot even fathom the amount of money rolling around under the tables.  But, whether or not it is spent here....well, one should check out the Western Union lines at Fiesta (a local international chain grocery here specializing in foods from Central and South America).  

Reb, you make some fine points.  Yes, NAFTA.....bleep..........
LeeJ
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since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


44 posted 07-28-2007 08:03 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Hey Ron, thanks for the explaination...

Karen and Ron, sit down....

I waitressed pretty near all my life as a second job.  Up here in PA...and I'm not going to give you names....they pretty  much pay these people regularly under the table....thats the truth...stick a needle in my eye, I saw it every week...

great thread everyone...thanks so much

Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


45 posted 07-28-2007 08:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No Mike. Iím not in any trap. Check yourself.

Sorry, Regina. When you end with the "immigrants built this country" speech you are definitely missing the legal/illegal point. You are not alone since many of the comments dwell on immigration itself and not the illegality of those who shortcut and defy the system.

Ok, let me get it straight then. Ron speaks of hummingbird comparisons and Reb speaks of his non-English speaking dog....so we're all a bunch of birdbrains going to the dogs? (trying to find the subliminal message here)

rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


46 posted 07-28-2007 11:33 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

No probs, Mike. Iíve more than addressed the illegality issues, even in prior threads. Iíve stated that I donít support illegal aliens or anyone who abuses the system. Itís wrong. What else can I say? Culling immigrants into a generalizing vein of system abuse is wrong, too.

quote:
so we're all a bunch of birdbrains going to the dogs?


We sure are if we base our realities on a person who wings it around a group of people as if theyíre locusts, and if we donít read the bottom lines:

quote:
Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Davis Hansen's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."


He ended his speech with sincere support of a book that states, again: ďLegal and Illegal immigrants were destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.Ē

Do you support that statement, Mike?

Lee~

Thanks, and no, I donít take advantage or support anyone that does, as Iíve said, but I donít waste valuable energy on things I canít control. Iím hoping and praying for a solution that works without causing anyone any undue harm or pain. I suspect things will get much worse before they get better, because thatís the norm. I have to believe that our leaders will (eventually) do what they feel is best about the situation, while I try to keep my head on straight and not fall into some hysterical madness of fear and anger.


Reb~

Aww, congrats to you.  My puppy, Thor (what a name the girls gave him) will never speak or understand our spoken language, because heís bilaterally deaf. He canít hear a violent blast of thunder, hence the name. So Iím learning how to teach him sign language.

I donít know the answers to your questions, because each event would cost us more millions to act on than if they just stayed here and became tax paying citizens.

Yep, we donít make anything much like we used to.  What to do, what to do, and who to see about it. Remember the saying ďIím gonna go see a man about a dog?Ē Haha. It's enough to make me wanna go see a man about a whole pack of dogs for about a month, but I refrain, cuz bootleggin' is still: illegal.
TomMark
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since 07-27-2007
Posts 2111
LA,CA


47 posted 07-28-2007 01:44 PM       View Profile for TomMark   Email TomMark   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TomMark

LeeJ,
I understand your fear and I understand that you believe what Lamm said.

What does the ideal America look like in Lammís mind?

If I say that American culture is that
One came  to live in foreign land. And one got helped in difficult time. Later he killed the helping hands and looted their land. Even smarter, he got cheap slaves from Africa.

Do you think that every one who comes in US now (legally or not) wants to repeat that history? Esp. that illegal immigrant from Mexico. Why not?


Balladeer
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Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


48 posted 07-28-2007 02:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Regina....no, I do not support that statement. I have no problem with legal immigration whatsoever. I salute them. (regardless of what ron labels me )

Do I believe that factions will one day wipe out the USofA? Yes, but indirectly, not intentionally....and the fault will lie, not with them, but with the government, the labor unions and our own foibles. Hey, something will wipe us out. History is riddled with empires that were once..."the glory that was Rome". If it's not that, it will be the fact that we could not defend ourselves due to a shortage of oil, after having been cut off by the Middle East and because we were too stupid to drill for and refine our own oil resources for fear of killing the silver-tip winged  cartuche fly. If not that, then something else. History is a great  map of the future.....
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


49 posted 07-28-2007 06:40 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Why is calling the US an 'empire' no longer a monopoly of the loonie left?

Where's Mark Twain when you need him?
 
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