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Passions in Poetry

Illegal Immigrants

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oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


0 posted 06-29-2007 02:03 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2


Is the illegal immigrants issue really thinly disguised racism, akin to the undisguised racism of the "English Only" folks?  

Is it right to set a price, though couched in the form of a "fine" on US citizenship?

Is it right to formally sanction a second class tier of guest workers?  We wouldn't be the first country to do so, but do we want to join that club?

Does anyone seriously think that ten million or more illegal Mexicans -- whom this issue is really about, since nobody is talking about fencing off Canada -- are going to go home en masse and reapply to come back?

Does a fence ever work?

How many Mexican terrorists can you name off-hand? (Jose Padilla, btw, is from Puerto Rico, a home grown terrorist.)

Stuff like that.

I post this here as opposed to P-101, because it seems to have more emotional connotations than P-101's critiques of pure reason.

Thoughts?  

Jim
Balladeer
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1 posted 06-29-2007 02:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, emotional connotations are far more important than pure reason, I suppose  

I find it interesting all of the derivatives that come from "illegal immigrants". Here we have "second class tier guest workers". We also have "undocumented citizens". Appears that word illegal is too hard to pronounce.

A Mexicali Rose by any other name......
oceanvu2
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2 posted 06-29-2007 04:01 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Balladeer:  A Mexicali Rose by any other name...would smell as sweet.  And probably be spelled Rosa.  

The reference in the originating post was to the proposed massive increase in the immigration reform bill currently under consideration, which, imo, would legally sanction a massive underclass.

I don't think "illegal" is that hard to pronounce.  Illegal residents are here illegally, though I don't find them particularly "alien."

My first "welcome" to California, in my car with Arizona plates, consisted of a looney tune rolling down his window to scream "You've seen it, now go home!"  Didn't work on me, and I don't think it will work on, ah,  "them."

Best, Jim

Balladeer
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3 posted 06-29-2007 04:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! I know what you mean, Jim. Down here we have the bumper sticker that reads WELCOME TO FLORIDA. NOW GO HOME! Doesn't work, either

No, I don't find them alien, either, sir. Has any fence ever worked? Probably not but does that mean one doesn't even try?  I'm afraid I'm one of those who state "We need a solution - but don't ask me what it is".
serenity blaze
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4 posted 06-29-2007 05:27 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

sigh.

I just want 'em to stop blocking the damned grocery aisles--and yes, I'm talking to my Arab friends too!

IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

Sorry. Sheesh.

I don't pretend to know the nuances of all the particular implications of this issue either. And before anyone calls me a racist, know that I have two lovely neices--Gabrielle and Marguerite--and my nephew's last name is Rodriguez. It ain't about nationality--not for me.

And no, I will not be screaming "Learn to Drive!" because I don't know how either.

Also? I'd be willing to exchange some "coaching" on local custom in exchange for cooking lessons--the authentic Mexican food only adds to the culinary appeal of New Orleans.

It ain't all bad! Why, I have even learned a few phrases in Spanish!



Seriously though, once a few particulars are ironed out--I don't think I mind all that much. I always did prefer a spicier gumbo!

Oh. Before I go, I would like to add that if I can be charged with "vagrancy" for not having a legal I.D. on my person, I really think something should be worked out for our "guests" as well.
oceanvu2
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5 posted 06-29-2007 07:32 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi Serene-ness!  I'm not calling anyone here a racist, just suggesting that racism plays a role in a difficult issue, making it hard, sometimes, for some people, to look at the situation in a detached manner.

My adopted son, Joey, now 38 (omg) is a full fledged Mayan of Messican-American birth parents.  He thinks he's a Scotsman, doesn't speak a word of Spanish, and would rather die than chomp a jalapeno.  I think he looks exactly like me.  Parenthood will do that to ya.

Best, Jim
serenity blaze
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6 posted 06-29-2007 08:58 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Aw, Jim, I didn't mean to suggest anything of the kind.

I happen to be a fan of yours!

(Um, you don't block the aisles in grocery stores, do you?)

*shaking my head*

I have no idea why that annoys me so...

Edward Grim
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7 posted 06-29-2007 10:59 PM       View Profile for Edward Grim   Email Edward Grim   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Edward Grim's Home Page   View IP for Edward Grim

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. There's been a huge influx of white people in my area lately, the whole country really. I don't know where the hell all these whities are coming from, but I wish they'd go back to polar bear and paper plate land. I mean seriously, I can't even go to the tennis courts or bridge club without seeing at least 27 white people. We need to build an electric fence to keep these pale people out. I'm pulling my freakin' hair out here!


“Well all the apostles, they’re sittin’ on the swings, sayin’ I’d sell off my savior for a set of new rings.”

Drauntz
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8 posted 06-30-2007 06:45 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

Does "Illegal" means criminal?
serenity blaze
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9 posted 06-30-2007 07:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Ed, I have it on good authority that all those whitefolk are sneaking across the Canadian border!



(and winking, "mysteriously")

Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


10 posted 07-01-2007 05:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Mentioning racism in America is like mentioning
Hitler/Nazism; all rational discussion is then tainted if not terminated.

Perhaps the same is true in Europe now.

I personally have far less misgivings
about any immigration that is merely
Hispanic than that faced in Europe.
My own parents discovered after twenty
years upon visiting the “old country”
that they were Americans  with their
senses of individuality and personal freedom,
while as much envied and detested
as anyone born in Alabama.  My parents
came to America to be to the limited extent
by then, (no longer infants), they thought possible,
and for the full extent they
wanted for their children, to be Americans,
which is importantly in this country
a protected cultural way of being.


.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (07-01-2007 06:14 PM).]

serenity blaze
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11 posted 07-01-2007 05:49 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Interesting.

Would you care to elaborate John?
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
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Waukegan


12 posted 07-01-2007 05:54 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



See my addition
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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13 posted 07-01-2007 08:15 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you John.

I have, on more than one occasion, misinterpreted your intent/meaning and for that I apologize.

Thanks for your clarification.
oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


14 posted 07-01-2007 08:46 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi John!  Yup, that's why I suggested it is often percieved as an emotional rather than rational issue.

Best, Jim
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


15 posted 07-03-2007 11:57 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

"Is the illegal immigrants issue really thinly disguised racism, akin to the undisguised racism of the "English Only" folks?"

I don't think its about racism when legal Americans, see others here illegally, taking advantage of our systems, and promoting terrorisum.....it's not about racism, illigals are simply unjust and unfair to those who came here legally and went through our system and have now become working members of the community.  Would you allow someone into your home you didn't know, to sleep there, and go into your refigerator, sit down at your table, wear your cloths, take showers, wash their cloths and not give you a red cent toward any expenses?  That is what its like...and it breeds resentment, dislike, distrust...b/c in plain english, they are stealing from us...robbing us blind and becoming chaotic. Now we have a world full of people who have no respect for the laws or the privacy and land of another.  

No, it is not about racism, it is simply about us standing back and watching other breaking the law, and it being excused, it's like a slap in the face, and some people take it way more seriously and personally then others, and you cannot blame them.  A law is a law....period.

Not to menton, illegals can vote, have rights to protest, and did nothing to become a working member of the U.S.

They don't pay taxes, they recieve free medical attention, and they will run to the emergency room with their kids who have colds for treatment and they don't pay for it.  It is not fair to other Americans who do pull their load, yanno?

Then they send all the money they are making back to their countries???????  Think about it?  I don't believe many people have problems with immigration, it is illegal immigration, no matter what name you give it, is breaking the law, and a law is a law, it has to be, otherwise, all else becomes chaotic...and the ripple effect of this is going to be very difficult to swallow.  
Huan Yi
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since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


16 posted 07-03-2007 01:53 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Now the elites tell us that the protests were generated by conservative talk radio programs, and there are implications that this was due to xenophobia, if not racism.

Anyone who actually listens to conservative talk radio or reads those who opposed this immigration bill will know what a crock that is. Elitists should at least come up with some new smears, instead of repeating the same old tired insults. "

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ODQ0Y2UwZGM4NmZhZWVhMmRlMTY3NzAzYzEzYjg0NWQ=


.
oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


17 posted 07-03-2007 03:05 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi John!  Ah, those poor, deluded elitists!  Thank Goodness they weren't able to keep Scooter Libby from being pardoned!

More to the point, your reference is on point.  The subject do be touchy!

Best, Jim
rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


18 posted 07-03-2007 03:39 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

Hey Jim,

yep, it's a hot topic.

Remember the Alamo?

I remember my trip to Tijuana. I'll never forget it. I've never been so depressed in my life. Sighs. This is a great country, despite its downfalls and hardships I feel so fortunate.

oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


19 posted 07-03-2007 05:33 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Hi rwood!  I think I remember the Alamo.  Didn't he play shortstop for the Dodgers?  Oh wait, maybe that was Sandy Alomar.  

Serenity:  Swapping cultural assimilation lessons for recipes sounds like a great idea!

Generally:  This is indeed a great country.  That's why people want to come here.  It's still a land of opportunity.

There was a notion at one point that the fact that people want to come here is part of what makes this country a great nation.  What was that thing inscribed at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty?  "Send me your...Who?

One possible solution might be to create a "live free" zone somewhat along the lines of China's "free trade" zones.  We could call this zone "Socalazona-Newmexatexas," with part of Colorado thrown in.

In this II (Illegal Immigrants) zone, II's  would be free to work as they always have, as long as they continue to have taxes deducted from their earnings, as the overwhelming majority of II's always have. Heck, we might even grant them (in this Zone only) the right to organize, fight for a living wage, and stuff like that.

Best, Jim  

serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


20 posted 07-03-2007 06:33 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Jim, this is off-topic (maybe) but I wanted you to know that I tried.

Just down the street--there is a strip-mall and in that strip mall is a mexican grocery, a chinese restaurant, a vietnamese seafood store and take-out restaurant, (GREAT ginger crab legs) and a convenience store owned by one of my Arabic buds, and a bar, that has catered to this formerly predominantly white neighborhood for close to thirty years. (They have installed a buzzer on the door, too.) So, I thought it would be a great idea if they all got together--have a day of fun, music, and food! Get a little band out there, set up various booths with cooking demonstrations and samples, multi-language recipes made available, beer provided by the bar, etc. You know the deal. I thought it was a win-win situation for everyone, since no one business competes directly with the other anyhow.

But nobody was interested.

Too bad, isn't it? Just a little bit of co-operation would have been all it took, and all of these struggling businesses could have made a wonderful gesture of trust and goodwill to the surrounding community.

Oh well. So much for my PR career. And another small blow to my idealism, too. *pout*

oceanvu2
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since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


21 posted 07-03-2007 07:18 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Serenemous:  Response not off topic at all.

There's a great satirical song by Tom Lehrer called "National Brotherhood Week" which goes, in part:

"Oh the Black Folks hate the White Folks,
And the White Folks hate the Black Folks.
All of your Folks
Hate my Folks,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But it's National Brotherhood Week,
National Brotherhood Week...."

THIS WAS SATIRE, GANG!!!  Lehrer managed to insult just about every racial, religious, and ethnic group in the US in a single song.  

Lehrer was/is(?) also a reknowned mathematician and philosopher with a penchant for writing outrageously politically incorrect songs, long before Political Correctness came into vogue.

My personal favorite of his is "Poisoning the Pigeons in the Park."  His song was in favor of it...

OF COURSE, when cultures closely abide, they abrade.  

I don't get too upset about people blocking grocery aisles to chat.  I go completely bananas over people trying to sneak 20 items through the 15-item or less Express Lane.

Umm, a Bar that keeps people out?  I thought only the Irish and Italians did that.  

Best, Jim
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


22 posted 07-03-2007 07:31 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

The grocery aisle thing? If they were chatting, I'd understand. But it's the ones who just STAND there, gazing...

But after some consideration, I realized I wasn't born knowing to "park" my cart to the side--my momma taught me that.

I also remembered a Russian friend, now deceased, telling me once that of all the sights she had seen in the States--it wasn't the Grand Canyon that overwhelmed her--it was the simple sight of the vast array of choice that we take for granted in our grocery stores.

So have no fear, good people, Serenemous *laughing* (lawsy) is capable of chastizing herself.

Now, if I can only get our newer merchants to understand the concept of "lagniappe"...

*grin*

Look it up.

It's one of the nicer N'Awlins customs.
oceanvu2
Senior Member
since 02-24-2007
Posts 1007
Santa Monica, California, USA


23 posted 07-04-2007 08:21 PM       View Profile for oceanvu2   Email oceanvu2   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for oceanvu2

Serenemous:  Alas, the only "lagniappe" I recieve from my grocery store is the free coupons for things I don't need on the back of the register tape...

I like the other definition's reference to a "meat base for a vegetable stew." The implications are just TOO profound!  

I'm not doing social observations on the glorious Fourth.  Just waiting for the fireworks.

Best, Jim
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


24 posted 07-20-2007 02:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290187,00.html


"Many of the physical assaults on British Jews are committed by Muslim extremists who blame all Jews for the conditions of Palestinians in Israel and Israeli-occupied areas. According to a poll in the London Times in December 2005, 37 percent of Britain’s 2 million Muslims agreed that all 268,000 members of the Jewish community were legitimate targets because of Israel’s policies."


 
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