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Passions in Poetry

Buried Bombs and Other things (My Mistake)

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Balladeer
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25 posted 04-17-2007 08:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I, for one, thank whatever powers that be for all of the double agents we have had over the past 90 years or so who have helped save thousands of lives. I'm sure they made promises to the enemy, too, that they didn't keep. Maybe they had their fingers crossed at the time?
LeeJ
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26 posted 04-17-2007 08:20 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ron, one of your comments consisted of this...


If the reporter has made a promise he either canít or wonít keep, I donít think we really need any additional questions to determine the state of his ethics.

Yes, your absolutely right, but, I indeed think, it should be brought out to the public, why, because we all create our own reality, and believe it or not, some people on this earth, actually would deny that this type of thing ever happens, just as conspiracys.  

We live in our own protective little bubbles away from the rest of the world...sadly...afraid to see reality, let alone get involved.

And I state we and you as universal, not directed at you.


Ron
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27 posted 04-17-2007 10:49 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ö who have helped save thousands of lives

Don't you really mean "saved thousands of lives that YOU cared about," Mike? Double agents, after all, typically are responsible for extinguishing just about as many lives as they save. That's why they call it war, I suppose. And that is supposed to prove that lying is morally acceptable?

quote:
And I state we and you as universal, not directed at you.

If it's truly universal, Lee, it's directed at me, too.

I have no doubt that conspiracies exist, Lee. I just think legitimate conspiracies are rare. In my experience, human beings just aren't all that good at keeping secrets. Most so called conspiracies, I think, are mental exercises designed to shift the blame for something to someone else. It's generally easier, and a lot more fun of course, than accepting responsibility for our own decisions.

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with our hypothetical reporter though?
Balladeer
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28 posted 04-17-2007 02:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't you really mean "saved thousands of lives that YOU cared about," Mike?

I have no idea what that means, Ron. That I cared about? There have been double agents in probably every war ever fought, people who have risked their lives every minute of the day for what they believed in, people  who risked exposure and death to get information vital to his country's well-being. You wish to infer that they are as murderous as the groups they infiltrated....why would you do that? You do them a disservice, Ron.

LeeJ
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29 posted 04-17-2007 03:28 PM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Ron:

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with our hypothetical reporter though?


Your right, it has no thing to do with it...but you know how quickly my mind jumps around....

Grinch
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30 posted 04-17-2007 04:00 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
While you're right, the soldiers would be just as dead if the reporter wasn't there as they'll be if he remains silent, I'm not convinced that such "logic" should necessarily hold sway.


Ron,

Perhaps such logic can only hold sway as long as the benefit is perceived to outweigh the cost, after all this situation is created because we crave the benefits gained from the output of embedded reporters. Whether that benefit is an insight into the mind of insurgents, a deeper understanding of the psyche of those involved, the imperative to know what is happening when it happens or a simple lust for action news. The benefit and subsequent demand dictates that someone has to be there to produce the reports and once all three parts of the equation are in place, the reporter, the insurgents and the soldiers the dilemma is bound to occur.

But is the decision to do nothing logical in such circumstances?

I believe it is, but so is interceding if the benefits gained for that course of action are perceived greater or the cost lower, an equally logical choice, as far as I'm concerned, would be to not create the situation in the first place but there's the rub. People with differing perceptions of the greater benefit weigh each choice, each has merit and each seems logical, but then it wouldn't be a dilemma if the choices were simple and straightforward.

Thanks for the continuing chance to read and reply.

Huan Yi
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31 posted 04-17-2007 08:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Is it because the victims are soldiers?
What about a Daniel Perle
or families in a market place
in Iraq, Israel, Italy or France?

Is it because it is over "there" and not "here"?

.
Drauntz
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32 posted 04-17-2007 08:27 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

John, it is not about "who". It is about life.
Mono death vs multiple death.
young vs old
man/woman
famous/average
rich/poor
parents/children
etc)
think of Tetanic. there was no chance to save every one' life. then who should die?)


if you were  the reporter, what would you do?

[This message has been edited by Drauntz (04-17-2007 09:01 PM).]

Ron
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33 posted 04-18-2007 09:37 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I have no idea what that means, Ron. That I cared about? There have been double agents in probably every war ever fought Ö

Yea, Mike. On both sides of every war. My comment was based on the presumption that you're probably not idealizing both sides?

quote:
Perhaps such logic can only hold sway as long as the benefit is perceived to outweigh the cost Ö

I understood what you meant, Grinch, and would normally agree completely. My point, however, and the reason I put quotes around the word "logic," was that I believe there are times in life where a cost/benefit analysis, logic, and pragmatic decisions all have to give way to simply doing what is right. The reporter and the organization for whom he reports are there for selfish reasons. Always. Logic, I think, too often becomes little more than a way to justify what you wanted to do any way.

I don't believe in many absolutes, but I do believe in a few. I think each of us, and each country for that matter, has to set absolutes that become sacrosanct. Telling the truth. Doing what you said you would do. Not standing by while people die needlessly. These absolutes don't bend to logic or expediency. You abide by your absolutes even when it hurts, knowing it will inevitably hurt much worse if you don't -- even if you can't always immediately see how.

I suppose what I'm describing is something approaching faith? Faith that the right thing to do is always the right thing, irrespective of circumstance or cost? Which, perhaps, would explain why it isn't amenable to logic.

That doesn't mean the reporter is necessarily out of a job, though. It just means he goes without the pretense of impossible promises. He is a reporter and the enemy should expect him to report. It becomes their responsibility to hide what they don't want him to report, and that includes imminent actions that lead to equally imminent reporting.


Grinch
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34 posted 04-18-2007 01:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
He is a reporter and the enemy should expect him to report. It becomes their responsibility to hide what they don't want him to report, and that includes imminent actions that lead to equally imminent reporting.


I like that.

It moves the onus and moving the onus is always a good thing.



Balladeer
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35 posted 04-18-2007 02:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Telling the truth is an absolute, Ron? You mean like..." 'til death do us part"?

Right now, between the two of us, there are over half a dozen ex-wives who would be laughing their patooties off!
Ron
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36 posted 04-18-2007 03:29 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Telling the truth is an absolute, Ron? You mean like..." 'til death do us part"?

I doubt you could have picked a better example, Mike. That's EXACTLY what I mean, though I'm unsure whether that particular quotation was so much a blatant lie as a very foolish promise. In any event, however, it's a good example because it seemed like the right thing at the time but, like virtually every deception and lie, soon enough culminated in unnecessary pain for just about everyone involved. No patootie laughing for them, for me, and especially not for my kids. It's also a good example of "had I known then what I know now."


Not A Poet
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37 posted 04-18-2007 08:45 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Hmmm, I suppose the same theory would apply then to the reporter who "promised not to tell." It just seemed like the right thing at the time?

Drauntz
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38 posted 04-19-2007 12:23 PM       View Profile for Drauntz   Email Drauntz   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Drauntz

at least the reporter could hold a sign like
@!\{$}\!@
 
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