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Buried Bombs and Other things (My Mistake)
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Buried Bombs and Other things (My Mistake) |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan 
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. If an American reporter is embedded with a group of Iraqi insurgents who have set up an ambush of American soldiers and he is in a position to warn those American soldiers to what or whom is his first responsibility? . |
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| © Copyright 2007 John Pawlik - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
And these Iraqi insurgents are somehow proposing to attack with birth control devices? |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
They are pretty scary.  http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://instructors.cwrl.utexas.edu/freeman/files/IUD%255B1%255D.gif&imgrefurl=http://instructors.cwrl.utexas.edu/freeman/sgmorningafterpill2& h=262&w=165&sz=3&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=A9B3GOY5qP45DM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=71&prev=/images%3Fq%3DIUD%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGIH_enUS210US211%26sa%3DN |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
and so was that link!  |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
the first responsibility is the reporter himself. To live with guilt (which could make him kill himself later if there were tens or hundreds death) or die of unrecognized honor. if the reporter is CIA, then it needs another question to get the answer. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
For any decent human being, it would be the responsibility to warn the soldiers. For reporters, it would not. Why would I say that? Because that's exactly what they did for years under Hussein rule. They saw the atrocities that were being committed and said nothing for fear they would be kicked out of Iraq and not be able to keep their position there. This was self-admitted by them years ago. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
I think the acronym you were looking for John was IED Improvised Explosive Device Sorry -- but "IUD's and Other Things" as the previous title tickled my funny bone too much as I imagined the insurgents using the IUD's for slingshots against our Goliath army. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
if the reporter has ten children, I will not blame him if he keeps quiet. I never expect that any human being to be holy. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. A very similar scenario was presented to Mike Wallace on a public television program and he was adamant in his argument that the reporter’s first duty was to the story and so he should not give warning. A Marine officer in the same discussion advised Mike that the reporter should not then expect soldiers to risk their lives for him. . |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
1. general rule vs emergency when south tower was falling, shall a reporter stay for his duty or run for his life? 2. Reporter under emergency ----life...humanity...brotherhood...belongs(groupings based on country, ethnic group..etc) the instant response of his priority... 3.shall reporters live for the lives on the couch or for the lives on the front line? (reporter is different from CIA agents) [This message has been edited by Drauntz (04-13-2007 09:50 AM).] |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. The urge to protect yourself and your own is what Stalin, (for example), would rely on . . . I don’t know that that tendency rises to the level of laudable morality. . |
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Essorant Member Elite
since 2002-08-10
Posts 4769Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada |
Are the soldiers' lives more important than the life of the reporter? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Sometimes it's not really fun to try to catch up on mistakes in the making, carried through, then obliterated by the time zomie that is allowed to catch errors, without some kind of explanation.... Geez.... But overall, I suppose I'm one of those people who cannot conceive of taking a job against the government and life which has allowed me so much. Now, if I were an undercover agent and expected to bring back the knowledge of what might happen in any given situation, I would be as good as the gossip in any office, hoping to only increase any mission that the bosses had in mind to begin with...all the while, knowing, or hoping not to know, that I was expendable, overall. What did the cold war bring us, but more war? What does the acts of an undercover agent beget us, but more gossips? And why in the heck do I believe that honor, commitment, and respect, can overcome? Gads, I must be supremely idiotic in my extremes that goodness and kindness can overcome. Oh, I forget....this is the Alley. I probably forgot to take a pill, too. Thanks for allowing the mild explosion. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
The instinct of staying alive and self-protect is not taught but is programmed in every biological body. However teaching of all kind...may make someone think that something else is more important than life. Love, also can make people giving up life for others but in a very limited way. Anyway, to stay alive is not selfish but if at the price of other people’s life? …need to be justified by individual consciousness. I can die for my relatives, friends and all children. But I do not blame others if they can’t. [This message has been edited by Drauntz (04-15-2007 03:41 AM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
An excellent reply, sir,but I think you and Essorant have gotten away from the question posed. If an American reporter is embedded with a group of Iraqi insurgents who have set up an ambush of American soldiers and he is in a position to warn those American soldiers to what or whom is his first responsibility? The question is not dealing with the reporter's life nor whether or not his life is more important than the soldiers'...it appears to be dealing with the reporter's professional (or even moral) responsibility. Apparently if a reporter had received permission to be embedded in a terrorist group, his organization would have to give assurances that he would be neutral in every way, reporting the events but with a promise of non-interference. I take John's question to ask which would be more important to the reporter and his news agency...their vow to the terrorists not to interfere in exchange for their acceptance or the lives of soldiers they could save by going back on their word. To me it seems like a no-brainer - but, then, most reporters seems like no-brainers to me as well. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Sir Balladeer , John himself changed the direction. As to reporter 1.His boss wants him to get all the information...means: money and fame. 2. The military wants him to signal the warning… to save the life and to win the war. 3. the reporter has to make a decision himself regardless of his routine responsibility. It is emergency. 4. If I were the reporter, I would save those boys life with my own life. If there is no life and death involved, then hell to this question. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Drauntz So you rely on others to do that other dying for you. Let there be help To all young men and now women in harm's way. There is one thing I am glad for is that the soldiers from Iraq will not be painted red as were the soldiers from Vietnam. That strikes me as evidence of better intelligence than we had then . |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Dear John, thank you for the instant reply. I thought I was very rude to use the word "hell" so I came back to change it. Here I read your words. I do not understand what you said. will you please explain it? |
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Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-08-22
Posts 22648 |
Drauntz, I think you misunderstand the hypothetical situation presented. It was not a question of the reporter giving up his life. It was merely a question of priorities...should his loyalty come first to his employer and his duties as a reporter or should they come first to the soldiers in danger of an ambush. |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
Denise, you are absolutely right...the priority. I wonder if he got weeks to make the decision or 2 second to have the response. So John, how much time did the reporter have to give a thought then to make a decision? does he have a chance to read our discussion? |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
My dear neighbor's son was in Iraq for two years. I was so worried. but do I understand the mother's feelings? no. never. three month before he went to Iraq he met a girl and three days later he got married with her thinking that he might have no chance at all to get married. When he visited his grandpa, grandpa asked him about his new wife. he could not say her name...he forgot. He had to take out the marriage certificate from his purse to read out her name to his grandpa. He later sent certain amount money to his new wife monthly while she was sleeping around. When he came home in first break his mother told him that if he wanted to escape from the war he could go to Maxico because they had relative there. The boy said "mom, no. my buddies are there." He was 20 then. Many of the solders are young and they do not know what life is yet. They may have never had a girl friend. they may not have ever in love with somebody yet. So give them a chance, you reporter! or too hippocratical the question. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: If the reporter has made a promise he either can’t or won’t keep, I don’t think we really need any additional questions to determine the state of his ethics. Promises should not be lightly made. Having been made, however, they can’t be broken simply because unforeseen consequences develop. I think we’re obligated to keep all our promises, not just the ones that turn out to be easy. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
...which I'm sure would be a comfort to the parents of the dead soldiers, that the reporter kept his promise to the terrorists. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
I think the first thing you have to ask is whether there's a benefit in having embedded reporters on either side. If the answer is yes then I believe they have an obligation to remain neutral and impartial reporters of what they see and that they do nothing to affect the outcome either way. Justifying this detachment from events isn't easy but I believe actually being the reporter would be even less so, first he has to put his life in the hands of the insurgents, then he risks death at the hands of his countrymen who are trying to kill the insurgents and then he has to accept the possibility of watching his countrymen die without interceding. Once acceptance of the concept of a reporter that acts, to all intents and purposes, as if he\she wasn't even there the ethical dilemma disappears somewhat. Faced with the question - if the reporter really wasn't there would any benefit be gained - the answer would have to be that any deaths would still occur but we would lose the benefit of the reporters observations. Which takes us right back to where I started, the thing to ask is whether there's a benefit in having embedded reporters there in the first place. You can of course extend this ethical question because every time you see footage of a house fire or a flood or rescuers searching through a collapsed building for survivors there's always has to be one person who's holding the camera who could be manning a hose, rowing a boat or helping to dig out a child. |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Is that the goal, Mike? To comfort the parents? If so, then the solution seems pretty simple to me: Let's not send the soldiers into harm's way. Goal accomplished. If, on the other hand, you believe there are goals beyond that of comforting grieving parents, if indeed there are important goals in conflict with that of the parents, then we have to agree that sparing the parents their pain can't always be a deciding factor. It clearly wasn't the deciding factor for the Commander-in-Chief. Nor should it have been. Why, then, should it be the deciding factor for our hypothetical reporter? Grinch, you make some good points. Honestly, my initial reaction was that such promises should never be made. Promising to stand by while people are killed is little different than promising to kill the people. While you're right, the soldiers would be just as dead if the reporter wasn't there as they'll be if he remains silent, I'm not convinced that such "logic" should necessarily hold sway. What if we replace the insurgents with a faceless gunman wandering the halls of Virginia Tech? Is the potential insight we might gain by having a reporter tag along worth the moral cost we would all have to bear for the reporter's silence? Somehow, I don't think so. In accepting the benefits we condone the practice and, in my opinion, pay much too high a price. Insurgent, enraged shooter, or just a back alley mugger, I think we all have a vested interest to raise our voice when tragedy can be prevented. And that means we have no business making any promises that we won't. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Well, I, for one, thank whatever powers that be for all of the double agents we have had over the past 90 years or so who have helped save thousands of lives. I'm sure they made promises to the enemy, too, that they didn't keep. Maybe they had their fingers crossed at the time? |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ron, one of your comments consisted of this... If the reporter has made a promise he either can’t or won’t keep, I don’t think we really need any additional questions to determine the state of his ethics. Yes, your absolutely right, but, I indeed think, it should be brought out to the public, why, because we all create our own reality, and believe it or not, some people on this earth, actually would deny that this type of thing ever happens, just as conspiracys. We live in our own protective little bubbles away from the rest of the world...sadly...afraid to see reality, let alone get involved. And I state we and you as universal, not directed at you.  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Don't you really mean "saved thousands of lives that YOU cared about," Mike? Double agents, after all, typically are responsible for extinguishing just about as many lives as they save. That's why they call it war, I suppose. And that is supposed to prove that lying is morally acceptable? quote: If it's truly universal, Lee, it's directed at me, too.  I have no doubt that conspiracies exist, Lee. I just think legitimate conspiracies are rare. In my experience, human beings just aren't all that good at keeping secrets. Most so called conspiracies, I think, are mental exercises designed to shift the blame for something to someone else. It's generally easier, and a lot more fun of course, than accepting responsibility for our own decisions. I'm not quite sure what that has to do with our hypothetical reporter though? |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Don't you really mean "saved thousands of lives that YOU cared about," Mike? I have no idea what that means, Ron. That I cared about? There have been double agents in probably every war ever fought, people who have risked their lives every minute of the day for what they believed in, people who risked exposure and death to get information vital to his country's well-being. You wish to infer that they are as murderous as the groups they infiltrated....why would you do that? You do them a disservice, Ron. |
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LeeJ Member Patricius
since 2003-06-19
Posts 13296 |
Ron: I'm not quite sure what that has to do with our hypothetical reporter though? Your right, it has no thing to do with it...but you know how quickly my mind jumps around.... |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: Ron, Perhaps such logic can only hold sway as long as the benefit is perceived to outweigh the cost, after all this situation is created because we crave the benefits gained from the output of embedded reporters. Whether that benefit is an insight into the mind of insurgents, a deeper understanding of the psyche of those involved, the imperative to know what is happening when it happens or a simple lust for action news. The benefit and subsequent demand dictates that someone has to be there to produce the reports and once all three parts of the equation are in place, the reporter, the insurgents and the soldiers the dilemma is bound to occur. But is the decision to do nothing logical in such circumstances? I believe it is, but so is interceding if the benefits gained for that course of action are perceived greater or the cost lower, an equally logical choice, as far as I'm concerned, would be to not create the situation in the first place but there's the rub. People with differing perceptions of the greater benefit weigh each choice, each has merit and each seems logical, but then it wouldn't be a dilemma if the choices were simple and straightforward. Thanks for the continuing chance to read and reply. |
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Huan Yi Member Ascendant
since 2004-10-12
Posts 6688Waukegan |
. Is it because the victims are soldiers? What about a Daniel Perle or families in a market place in Iraq, Israel, Italy or France? Is it because it is over "there" and not "here"? . |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
John, it is not about "who". It is about life. Mono death vs multiple death. young vs old man/woman famous/average rich/poor parents/children etc) think of Tetanic. there was no chance to save every one' life. then who should die?) if you were the reporter, what would you do? [This message has been edited by Drauntz (04-17-2007 09:01 PM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: Yea, Mike. On both sides of every war. My comment was based on the presumption that you're probably not idealizing both sides? quote: I understood what you meant, Grinch, and would normally agree completely. My point, however, and the reason I put quotes around the word "logic," was that I believe there are times in life where a cost/benefit analysis, logic, and pragmatic decisions all have to give way to simply doing what is right. The reporter and the organization for whom he reports are there for selfish reasons. Always. Logic, I think, too often becomes little more than a way to justify what you wanted to do any way. I don't believe in many absolutes, but I do believe in a few. I think each of us, and each country for that matter, has to set absolutes that become sacrosanct. Telling the truth. Doing what you said you would do. Not standing by while people die needlessly. These absolutes don't bend to logic or expediency. You abide by your absolutes even when it hurts, knowing it will inevitably hurt much worse if you don't -- even if you can't always immediately see how. I suppose what I'm describing is something approaching faith? Faith that the right thing to do is always the right thing, irrespective of circumstance or cost? Which, perhaps, would explain why it isn't amenable to logic. That doesn't mean the reporter is necessarily out of a job, though. It just means he goes without the pretense of impossible promises. He is a reporter and the enemy should expect him to report. It becomes their responsibility to hide what they don't want him to report, and that includes imminent actions that lead to equally imminent reporting. |
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Grinch Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929Whoville |
quote: I like that. It moves the onus and moving the onus is always a good thing. |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Telling the truth is an absolute, Ron? You mean like..." 'til death do us part"? Right now, between the two of us, there are over half a dozen ex-wives who would be laughing their patooties off!  |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: I doubt you could have picked a better example, Mike. That's EXACTLY what I mean, though I'm unsure whether that particular quotation was so much a blatant lie as a very foolish promise. In any event, however, it's a good example because it seemed like the right thing at the time but, like virtually every deception and lie, soon enough culminated in unnecessary pain for just about everyone involved. No patootie laughing for them, for me, and especially not for my kids. It's also a good example of "had I known then what I know now." |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hmmm, I suppose the same theory would apply then to the reporter who "promised not to tell." It just seemed like the right thing at the time? |
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Drauntz Member Elite
since 2007-03-16
Posts 2905Los Angeles California |
at least the reporter could hold a sign like @!\{$}\!@ |
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