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Huan Yi
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0 posted 03-29-2007 09:36 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6508909.stm

.


So what do you think England is dealing with?


.
Not A Poet
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1 posted 03-30-2007 05:59 PM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

Lunatics.
Denise
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2 posted 03-30-2007 08:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

My thoughts exactly, Pete.
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3 posted 03-31-2007 09:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Iran made the remark to the press that the soldiers were not being treated like the prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

Thank you, once again, members of the press and bandwagon senators. Your labors have borne fruit once again. Thank God you were there to safeguard the public's "right to know".


As revealed by the 2004 Taguba Report a criminal investigation by the US Army Criminal Investigation Command had already been underway since May 2003 where four Soldiers from the 320th MP Battalion had been formally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) with detainee abuse. In April 2004 reports of the abuse, as well as graphic pictures showing American military personnel in the act of abusing prisoners, came to public attention, when a 60 Minutes II news report (April 28) and an article by Seymour M. Hersh in The New Yorker magazine (posted online on April 30 and published days later in the May 10 issue) reported the story.

The resulting political scandal damaged the credibility and public image of the United States and its allies in the execution of ongoing military operations in the Iraq War, and some critics of U.S. foreign policy argued that it was representative of a broader American attitude and policy of disrespect and violence toward Arabs.
Ron
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4 posted 03-31-2007 02:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

The political scandal didn't damage anything, Mike. The abuse of prisoners did.

I'm not going to say a lot more than that, however, because I don't think this situation should be used for the usual political volleyball.
Mistletoe Angel
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5 posted 03-31-2007 03:29 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I'm in agreement with Ron here.

I certainly condemn that the worst of this administration's critics frequently exploit the Abu Ghraib issue to make the logical fallacies of sweeping generalization, the strawman and appeal to fear that the United States is a big bully that condones torture and is obsessed with imperialism, re-fighting the Crusades, usurping the world's oil reserves, etc. There are some who propagandize the situation just that way, and it's beyond disturbing to me.

However, what's also not acceptable is the "What the public doesn't know, won't hurt them!" defense towards torture, extraordinary rendition, warrantless wiretapping or any extreme action. When prisoners are being abused by a troubled and disspirited few, we need to know that so we can stop such horrible things from repeating themselves. Otherwise, if those acts of trouble persisted until one day a mother or father learned his or her son was being treated this way, and he/she warned the community, then they heard about it and spread word to the general public, it makes us look absolutely terrible, even worse than if we never had shed light on the situation and worked to assure these unfortunate acts hopefully will never happen again.

The public not only has the right to know, they SHOULD know. I just strongly disapprove of how some staunch critics of our government's foreign policy twist and make sweeping generalizations and exaggerations of it.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

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6 posted 03-31-2007 07:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Ron, we won't turn this into a political football the way the press and politicians did but your opinion is something impossible for me to agree with.
The political scandal didn't damage anything, Mike
Undoubtedly one of the most incredible statements I've ever heard from you.

Noah, the "public having the right to know" is one of the grestest hoaxes perpetrated on mankind, a neat little phrase thought up by an industry trying to peddle their own importance.

When prisoners are being abused by a troubled and disspirited few, we need to know that so we can stop such horrible things from repeating themselves.

Please advise me, Noah, on how "we" could stop such horrible things. Who is the "we" you refer to? The government stops it. The military stops it. It was being investigated by them. The "public" does nothing to stop them....that argument is incredibly weak.


Fine. The public knows. Truth has been served. The world now knows that the United States and it's military are defined by the actions of a couple of bored low-life enlistees and not the millions of other Americans or the hundreds of thousands of decent servicemen serving throughout the world. Who cares that our enemies used it for propaganda to destroy any decent reputation of our servicemen? Who cares that countless Arabs sided against the US based on the reports? Who cares that terrorists used it as a rallying cry to commit more atrocities and recruit more members? What does it matter that, three years later, Iran would refer to it as a slap at the United States and somehow justification of their own prisoner treatment, even when their "prisoners" are kidnapped soldiers from another country? The military had been investigating the incident. It was not being ignored or swept under the rug. That was not, however, good enough for 60 Minutes or the press. After all, the public had the right to know! Ratings had the right to go off the charts. Democrats had the right to go bonkers. Arabs who saw nothing more than headlines on Al-Jazeera had the right to condemn us.

Yes, Ron, exposing our two or three delinquents who made prisoners bark like dogs or form naked pyramids was certainly more important than the fallout it caused.

Yes, Noah, the thirst of the media has been quenched and truth has been served. Congrats for speaking up for such a fine industry. Where would we be without them?

if the two of you or anyone else belive it was the right thing to do, giving worldwide media exposure to a military investigation for nothing more than ratings and partisan politics, that's fine. Take a sheet of paper, write "good" on one side and "bad" on the other and start writing down the facets and results of the media exposure of Abu Ghrab.

Thank God our press didn't exist in 1944...or, at least, the ones who did were actually responsible people with more on their minds than ratings.
Mistletoe Angel
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7 posted 03-31-2007 11:48 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
Please advise me, Noah, on how "we" could stop such horrible things. Who is the "we" you refer to? The government stops it. The military stops it. It was being investigated by them. The "public" does nothing to stop them....that argument is incredibly weak.



They enact the official options that stop it, but I do believe it's the public that symbolically sees to it such behavior is not to be tolerated and when something crosses the line, pressures the military and government in researching and rectifying those violations and misbehavior.

BBC: October 19, 2006

The condemnation of torture is an immensely bi-partisan view. Over half of Americans outright oppose it regardless of the circumstance, with a larger combined percentage believing it should either never be justified or is only justified in the most extenuating circumstances, and worldwide the outright opposition numbers are even wider.

I also recognize that though some may approach what I say next more cynically, I believe that most people are more fair-minded and don't rush to conclusions that just because a "couple of bored low-life enlistees" resort to the lowest form of human behavior and commit these terrible acts, doesn't mean that their acts reflect the behavior of our young men and women serving in general. Those who seriously believe that are hopelessly already swamped with cognitive dissidence as it is and are likely pretty much to hold anti-American views anyway, and I optimistically believe even while public opinion of America worldwide is arguably lower currently than it has ever been, it's also true that it's the Bush Administration most worldwide are outraged with and not America generally speaking, thus we can certainly recover on the international stage.

Some indeed are brainwashed by such coverage, which is tragic, but I'm also optimistic more than enough people both in this country and worldwide don't see the world merely in black and white, and can identify and see through such propaganda that the less-reasoned and resentful reporters, media personalities, activists and politicians impose on the wide populace.

Neither me nor Ron were ever arguing from the beginning that there aren't those who exploit such circumstances just for vanity's sake and to try and double their ratings or subscription numbers, my friend. I pity anyone who resorts to that low road. But I also firmly stand by my belief that the "What the public doesn't know, won't hurt them!" mindset is inappropriate as well, and I believe there's indeed a medium where such a controversial issue as this is covered that also holds immense human weight to it where officers from the lowest to the highest ranks, along with everyday citizens of all walks in life, express their condemnations and combat these propagandized generalizations.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
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8 posted 04-01-2007 12:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I believe that most people are more fair-minded and don't rush to conclusions that just because a "couple of bored low-life enlistees" resort to the lowest form of human behavior and commit these terrible acts, doesn't mean that their acts reflect the behavior of our young men and women serving in general.

You could not be more wrong, Noah. True, the Americans don't feel that way but that's not who we are talking about. What about the way the terrorists used it as propoganda? What about the riots over it? The condemnation of the United States over it? The way it was used to foster hatred in the Arab populations?

I was reading a blog over the terrorist who had recently confessed to masterminding the Cole incident and other terroristic activities and the overwhelming majority of replies to it were, "Who knows if it's true or not? Everyone knows the US tortures their prisoners." There is you journalistic legacy, Noah.

As poets, we spend a lot of time in fantasyland. There's a real world out there, too, my pal, as you well know where "the public has the right to know" needs to be weighed against the damage public knowledge would cause.

In times of war, crisis or national action, the country needs to stand together. Instead we had the media going for the sensational and the Democrats going for the partisan jugular vein, both disinterested in what harm their actions would cause the country.

You bring in Bush administration? The incident had nothing to do with the Bush administration. Those 2 or 3 retards would have committed the same actions under any administration and you well know it.
Local Rebel
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9 posted 04-01-2007 03:31 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

You could not be more wrong, Noah. True, the Americans don't feel that way but that's not who we are talking about. What about the way the terrorists used it as propoganda? What about the riots over it? The condemnation of the United States over it? The way it was used to foster hatred in the Arab populations?



And, had it never happened none of that would have been possible.  Ergo -- Ron's point.
Denise
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10 posted 04-01-2007 08:07 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

But "it" will always happen when you are dealing with a large collective of people. There will always be a rotten apple or two in the bunch. There's no avoiding that and all you can do is deal with the rotten ones as they are discovered, which the military was doing, prior to the press coverage and exploitation of the situation for their own self-glorification. The point is you don't give fuel to the enemy, especially when you know they are going to use "it" as propoganda to whip up the populace.

The press needs to be more selective in what it releases and have the welfare of the country and its citizens as more of a priority than its own self-importance in hoping to get the next "scoop" or to be the first with the "breaking headlines". The military was already investigating the alleged abuse. They were already dealing with it before the news hounds descended on the scene. The only thing the media can take credit for in this is the ensuing riots and increased hatred for America.

We have an honorable military who deserve better than what they have been getting from the mainstream media.

I have some questions about the British sailors and marines who were taken captive. They are trained military with weapons at their disposal. Why did they not offer resistance? Why didn't their mother-ship that was reportedly within sight not intervene on their behalf? Is there something in the International Rules of Engagement that forbids protecting oneself from the enemy?
Ron
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11 posted 04-01-2007 11:29 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... and other terroristic activities and the overwhelming majority of replies to it were, "Who knows if it's true or not? Everyone knows the US tortures their prisoners." There is you journalistic legacy, Noah.

Uh, Mike? The U.S. does torture their prisoners. That's not a journalistic legacy, it's just the simple truth. If you'd like to see that truth changed, hiding it beneath a convenient rock probably isn't the best answer.

quote:
You bring in Bush administration? The incident had nothing to do with the Bush administration. Those 2 or 3 retards would have committed the same actions under any administration and you well know it.

I'm a little less certain of that than you appear to be, Mike. Bush has demonstrated a willingness to do anything he believes needs doing, regardless of law and regardless of American opinion. That attitude is bound to be reflected in the people who serve him.

You want to eliminate torture? It's not hard. Get rid of the secrecy. Put the prisoners in Leavenworth or any other prison with already established procedures. Even retards, as you call them, don't torture people in public view.

quote:
But "it" will always happen when you are dealing with a large collective of people.

That's crap, Denise. Michigan has a pretty large collective of people. I haven't tortured anyone. Well, at least not recently.

Again, get everyone out of the shadows. As long as politicians crave a veil of secrecy, this country desperately needs its Fourth Estate.

quote:
The point is you don't give fuel to the enemy, especially when you know they are going to use "it" as propoganda to whip up the populace.

Then don't allow "it" to happen. That still won't stop an enemy from contriving propoganda, of course. They'll do that with or without help from the press. But at least the world's righteous indignation will be a little less deserved, and we'll have a little less about which to feel guilty.


Not A Poet
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12 posted 04-01-2007 11:30 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
And, had it never happened none of that would have been possible.

We would all certainly like to think that was an accurate statement. The likes of Dan Rather, CBS, The NY Times, Reuters and several others who have been exposed fabricating similar stories, truly makes one question its accuracy.

There is no question what those few did was wrong and is despised by 99 percent of Americans. But to blow the story up so as to deliberately embarrass the entire nation and its military and give political ammunition to its enemy in time of war is just plain irresponsible, pushing the envelope of treason even.

There was absolutely no reason that the public "needed to know" about that abuse. There surely is plenty of reason the rest of the world did not need to know. Had it been the government or even the military policy to do such then certainly the press would have been right in exposing it. In this case though it was just a few individuals guilty of stupidity. I'm confident it was being and would have been dealt with properly, even without exposing dirty laundry to the world.
Not A Poet
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13 posted 04-01-2007 11:37 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

quote:
That's crap, Denise. Michigan has a pretty large collective of people. I haven't tortured anyone. Well, at least not recently.

Ron, I have no doubt that is a true statement. You are not the type to do so. Can you speak for the entire state though? Michigan really is a pretty large state. I am sincerely doubtful that it is free of violent crimes by at least one or two of its residents. Oh wait, I forgot, Jeffrey Dahmer was from Wisconsin. But that's pretty darn close to Michigan, isn't it? Come on, you know as well as I that Denise is right. Wherever you are, if you get a large enough group, there will always be that fair share of bad apples. You just can't paint the picture with that broad a brush. That's the real crap.
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14 posted 04-01-2007 01:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm sure that's true, Ron. I'm also sure that the overwhelming majority of our military men and women can say the same thing.

I think the Fourth Estate abdicates its place in society as a watch-dog when it acts to promote its own self-interests and its own agenda.
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15 posted 04-01-2007 02:08 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

But "it" will always happen when you are dealing with a large collective of people. There will always be a rotten apple or two in the bunch. There's no avoiding that and all you can do is deal with the rotten ones as they are discovered, which the military was doing, prior to the press coverage and exploitation of the situation for their own self-glorification. The point is you don't give fuel to the enemy, especially when you know they are going to use "it" as propoganda to whip up the populace.



Your last statement is absolutely the crux of the matter.  If you don't want the enemy using your torture of prisoners as propaganda you make damn sure you don't torture any prisoners.

quote:

The press needs to be more selective in what it releases and have the welfare of the country and its citizens as more of a priority than its own self-importance in hoping to get the next "scoop" or to be the first with the "breaking headlines". The military was already investigating the alleged abuse. They were already dealing with it before the news hounds descended on the scene. The only thing the media can take credit for in this is the ensuing riots and increased hatred for America.



quote:

"The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491

"The functionaries of every government have propensities to command at will the liberty and property of their constituents. There is no safe deposit for these but with the people themselves, nor can they be safe with them without information. Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384

"The most effectual engines for [pacifying a nation] are the public papers... [A despotic] government always [keeps] a kind of standing army of newswriters who, without any regard to truth or to what should be like truth, [invent] and put into the papers whatever might serve the ministers. This suffices with the mass of the people who have no means of distinguishing the false from the true paragraphs of a newspaper." --Thomas Jefferson to G. K. van Hogendorp, Oct. 13, 1785. (*) ME 5:181, Papers 8:632

"Our liberty cannot be guarded but by the freedom of the press, nor that be limited without danger of losing it." --Thomas Jefferson to John Jay, 1786.

"I deplore... the putrid state into which our newspapers have passed and the malignity, the vulgarity, and mendacious spirit of those who write for them... These ordures are rapidly depraving the public taste and lessening its relish for sound food. As vehicles of information and a curb on our funtionaries, they have rendered themselves useless by forfeiting all title to belief... This has, in a great degree, been produced by the violence and malignity of party spirit." --Thomas Jefferson to Walter Jones, 1814. ME 14:46
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1600.htm



Denise
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16 posted 04-01-2007 04:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think the Fourth Estate abdicates its place in society as a watch-dog when it acts to promote its own self-interests and its own agenda.

"I deplore... the putrid state into which our newspapers have passed and the malignity, the vulgarity, and mendacious spirit of those who write for them... These ordures are rapidly depraving the public taste and lessening its relish for sound food. As vehicles of information and a curb on our funtionaries, they have rendered themselves useless by forfeiting all title to belief... This has, in a great degree, been produced by the violence and malignity of party spirit." --Thomas Jefferson to Walter Jones, 1814. ME 14:46

Sounds like Tom could have been referring to today's putrid press.  

How in the world do you make sure that nothing bad is ever done by anybody? The best that can be done is to deal with infractions as they happen. That should be the measure of how our military is judged...how they deal with the bad apples. Because bad apples are inevitable.
Mistletoe Angel
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17 posted 04-01-2007 05:46 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

quote:
You could not be more wrong, Noah. True, the Americans don't feel that way but that's not who we are talking about. What about the way the terrorists used it as propoganda? What about the riots over it? The condemnation of the United States over it? The way it was used to foster hatred in the Arab populations?



Which is precisely what Ron was attempting to explain earlier, which I believe he couldn't have said more clearly; that it wasn't the political scandal that made the damage run, it was the fact that prisoners were abused did, and moreover when they see patterns of behavior such as attempting to re-write or re-interpret Article III and the Geneva Conventions, suspending habeas corpus rights for suspects, passively supporting some sorts of extraordinary rendition and refuse to close controversial prisons like Guantanamo despite immense international pressure to do so in the highest ranks of power here, it only makes the situation more unnecessarily undesirable.

Little or none of this would have happened had none of that happened. No one's denying that there are terrorists and others who don't look kindly on our government's foreign policy who do try and spark propaganda and stir up obfuscation and window dressing, which is undoubtedly dangerous and menacing especially in terms of public relations and image, I'm simply stating that any sort of irresponsibility such as some of the aforementioned examples I pointed out, which run against our morals and principles, must not be tolerated as well.

Undoubtedly there are terrible things terrorists and their sympathizers do toward citizens all throughout the Arab world, like kidnapping children and brainwashing them of their extremist beliefs perhaps the single greatest concern. Despite all the tragedy and chaos happening down there, despite even that horrifyingly scary poll result showing 51% of Iraqis believing some attacks on our forces are justified which there should be grave concern about, I am optimistic that Arab populations in general are NOT far less fair-minded and independent-thinking than we are, and while virtually any Iraqi you come across may oppose the occupation of their country by foreign forces like ours, many of them also agree and value our democratic ideals and hope to see them blossom in one way or another, so I'm confident more than enough will be able to identify that which is shamelessly usurped and propagandized by these terrorist organizations and when the citizens of Iraq fully take control of their own country, they will counter such obfuscation with their voices.

quote:
I was reading a blog over the terrorist who had recently confessed to masterminding the Cole incident and other terroristic activities and the overwhelming majority of replies to it were, "Who knows if it's true or not? Everyone knows the US tortures their prisoners." There is you journalistic legacy, Noah.


That is why I've always said the use of metonymy can be incredibly damaging, when you claim "the U.S says..." or "the U.S believes..." instead of "some U.S government officials say..." or "some U.S government officials believe...", etc.

The United States does NOT endorse nor believes in torture, period. Yet, the fact is there are a razor-thin minority, some of which unfortunately reside in this administration and other administrations, who choose not to have a close reading of the legislation of our law of the land and prefer instead to have themselves interpret the law of the land themselves, like they have done with the Military Commissions Act of last year, because there are crucial limitations to it that suggest some forms of interrogation like waterboarding are justifiable as long as, in their minds, it doesn't translate as "torture" or "cruel or inhuman treatment".

The fatal use of metonymy aside, there are some bad apples in our government who complicitly appear to endorse this sort of behavior, like some recalcitrant adolescent who snubs his nose at authority and at the laws and rules and says, "No, I wanna do things my way!", and in result potentially sets the stage for further exploitation of our laws and principles in the future, regardless of the administration and its party affliation, which is really what the biggest issue of all is regarding such legislation as the Military Commissions Act.

quote:
As poets, we spend a lot of time in fantasyland. There's a real world out there, too, my pal, as you well know where "the public has the right to know" needs to be weighed against the damage public knowledge would cause.

In times of war, crisis or national action, the country needs to stand together. Instead we had the media going for the sensational and the Democrats going for the partisan jugular vein, both disinterested in what harm their actions would cause the country.


I resent that you seem to accuse me of not wanting to "stand together" with the country and instead wanting to further polarize this nation.

As I have frequently noted here in previous threads, I had my suspicions about the outcome of the 2000 presidential election results, but I couldn't care less about politics at the time and believed, "So what, all politicians are blood-sucking ticks anyway!".

I in fact praised Bush for his non-partisan leadership on September 11th and the weeks beyond. In fact, there was a unanimous humanity all across this country and throughout a vast majority of the world throughout the country. 90% + of the nation, including myself, offered this President and this government every possible measure of support, regardless of party affliation, regardless of their beliefs of the election results, regardless of what Americans thought of his presidential qualifications. Nations worldwide setted aside their differences and sympathized with us in solidarity, with hundreds of thousands worldwide marching in support, candlelight vigils lighting up the world everywhere from Canada to the United Kingdom to Australia to South Africa, even newspapers worldwide that traditionally had negative views about our nation printed headlines that said encouraging things like "We Are All Americans".

And that memory hasn't dampened either. 98% of Americans have said they can still remember where they were and how they first heard about the tragedy, with half of Americans openly admitting they think about 9/11 multiple times every week. And any archived poll you look at immediately following that tragic day shows that a unanimous majority of Americans, regardless of political affliation, gender, demographic or background, believed that we must go after those directly responsible for the attacks on our nation.

That is precisely also why, though I'm a pragmatist pacifist who is not thrilled with war whatsoever in general, I chose to keep silent as we prepared to combat the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, as I genuinely believed and trusted the president in that we were going specifically after those responsible for the horrible attacks on our country that day, and nobody more.

Late 2002 was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, where I had already heard numerous reports of none of the 19 hijackers coming from Iraq, nor believed that Saddam Hussein was capable of attacking our nation given the many years of sanctions on Iraq that crippled the economy and thus making it nearly impossible for a weapons program to hold weight, yet heard a war in Iraq was just what was being planned. And because I've long believed that the most patriotic thing one can do when something doesn't feel right to you is to speak your mind and dissent, as dissent is truly much of the essence of democracy, that's just what I did, by learning how to write my first letter to my local congressman and to the local newspaper, wanting my questions to be answered. Then, when none of these questions were being answered and soundbytes and defiance stood in the way, I chose to participate in anti-war protests prior to the March 2003 beginning of the war.

Over four years later, the violence is at its sharpest levels yet in many areas, yet the President continues to go along with the "stay the course" mantra, despite millions coming out during the November 2006 mid-term elections to express their disapproval with the war in Iraq and a blank-check Congress, despite about two-thirds of Americans consistently polled disapproving of the war's handling, despite about three-in-five Americans approving of the very legislation Bush has threatened to veto.

Perhaps by your logic, the President ought to look at the real world outside his Oval Office window, and weigh his abstract notion of "victory" against the damage a prolonged occupation would generate in the region.

quote:
You bring in Bush administration? The incident had nothing to do with the Bush administration. Those 2 or 3 retards would have committed the same actions under any administration and you well know it.


The Bush Administration was referenced only once in my previous response, simply to make the clear point that it's really not the United States in general most internationally are outraged with, but that the Bush Administration is the source of virtually all their outrage.

BBC: January 23, 2007

The above poll released by BBC two months ago suggests just that; that the source of most of the angst the international community has toward Washington right now is evoked by policies pursued by the Bush administration in connection with its "global war on terror". So it seems to most worldwide that it's the Bush Administration they have beef with, not the United States and its ideals in general, which means we can absolutely recover on the international stage with a new president from either party beginning in January 2009, with some re-thinking of some of our policies that make up the crux of antagonism toward us.

Obviously, you're absolutely correct rascals could do just the same thing under any administration. But we have to accept the fact that there is something about this administration that especially hits a raw nerve in many worldwide, and we have to re-think our foreign policy with a more pragmatic and disciplined approach if we are to restore a coalition of the willing for future campaigns against terrorism and nuclear proliferation among other things.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
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18 posted 04-01-2007 06:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, I applauud your sidestepping of the actual question with all sorts of disclaimers.

All of your  references to a "free press" and it's necessity, LR? Nice....but we are not referring to a "free press" here. Necessity of a Fourth Estate, good sir? No one is advocating NOT having a Fourth Estate. "Then don't commit torture", Ron? Whay kind of a response is that supposed to be?

You are all just basically talking around what the actual question is? WAS IS NECESSARY?? Was it done to help our soldiers, hurt our efforts or "let the chips fall where they may?"by our own press? Any of you gentlemen going to claim it was not done solely for the ratings by 60 Minutes? Or do you sidestep that one, too?

The incident was discovered by the military. It was being investigated by the military. Nothing was being hidden "under a rock". 60 Minutes saw it,saw that it was another opportunity to get ratings and go after the administration and they went for it. Anyone believe that they sat down first and considered what global consequences might result from this unnecessary release to the public? They  just did it and for all of you that want to claim it was justifiable, you don't fool me for a minute. You KNOW why they did it and you know it was not the right thing to do and you are just coming up with these fogbanks and justifications because you don't want to acknowledge it. "If you don't want it known, don't do it", Ron? For a man of your obvious intellect that should be an embarrassing comment for you to make. Jeez, you people are too much. I can understand the disputes we have over parties, Bush, surveillance programs and many other things but I CANNOT believe you could not come out in this one instance and be able to agree that those actions were wrong, unnecessary, and cause a lot of needless trouble for the United States, the Iraq effort and our soldiers with absolutely no positive upside whatsoever. The only "freedom of the press" our media cares about is freedom from responsibility for their actions and it's incredible to me that there are people here who do their best to justify such an action in this case.
Huan Yi
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19 posted 04-01-2007 08:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Some of the British press, reflecting what their media betters deem
the  low brows, is all worked up about an English mum being
made to wear a cover and under assumed stress confessing and apologizing
for a crime credible scientific evidence asserts was not committed.
Now theres threat of a trial.  So what are the Brits to do ?
After all, 15 human lives more or less doesnt make much difference in anything.

.
Ron
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20 posted 04-01-2007 11:39 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Any of you gentlemen going to claim it was not done solely for the ratings by 60 Minutes?

Remind me again, Mike, what it was that Ayn Rand said about self-interest?

I've never had a single employer or client in my life who remained in business just so they could afford to pay me. But that's okay. We managed to survive together, to even thrive, because our self-interests often merged to common goals. I sincerely hope 60 Minutes got good ratings and made lots of money in the process. Because only then will they continue to do a very necessary job.

quote:
"Then don't commit torture", Ron? Whay kind of a response is that supposed to be?

An honest one, Mike. You're apparently mad because people learned the truth. I prefer to reserve my anger for the people who represented me, who acted in my name and interest, and who treated other human beings despicably in the process. Calling them a few bad apples and trying to minimize their role won't absolve my responsibility for what happened. Yours, either.

I know we don't live in a perfect world. Stuff happens. I don't, however, believe that means we should minimize responsibility or evade repercussions. We screwed up and, sorry, but we're not going to get a pat on the back for it. I think we have to take our licks, accept the consequences, and then use that to resolve to do better in the future. I believe America should be able to stand in the light. If it's not a perfect world, Mike, then we don't need to hide our imperfections in the dark. Stuff happens. But it sure seems to happen a lot more when people are given free passes. We don't need a free pass. Let's suck it up and get things fixed.

Winning the war on terrorism is important. Deserving to win it is paramount.


Balladeer
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21 posted 04-02-2007 01:24 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I sincerely hope 60 Minutes got good ratings and made lots of money in the process. Because only then will they continue to do a very necessary job.
I don't, however, believe that means we should minimize responsibility or evade repercussions.


Ron, you are a real piece of work, sir. You consider what they did with this case to be necessary. Necessary how? They didn't initiate any investigation. The investigation was already ongoing. All they did was let the world know all about it so our enemies could use it against us. There was no minimizing responsibilites or evasion of repercussions. It was a ploy to get ratings only at the expense of the damage it caused.....and you hope they made lots of money doing it.  Good for you. I assume you applaud that they also made a lot of money for their subsequent actions along the same vein which exposed them for issuing unfounded reports and created the bouncing of Rather. All hail this fine news reporting agency...

Uh, Mike? The U.S. does torture their prisoners. That's not a journalistic legacy, it's just the simple truth.

The U.S. who? I haven't tortured any. You haven't tortured any. 99.95% of the soldiers in Iraq haven't tortured any and yet you claim the U.S tortures. Congrats, Ron. You have just displayed the same train of thought millions of people, mainly Arabs, got when being exposed to the 60 Minutes great expose and you put as much thought into that comment as they did....the U.S tortures....period.

Winning the war on terrorism is important. Deserving to win it is paramount.

What in the world is that supposed to mean? We don't deserve to win it because prisoners were made fun of at Abu Ghraib by a couple of deliquents? That makes all of the efforts we have put there now undeserving of respect? Are you creating grandiose phrases just for effect?


You're apparently mad because people learned the truth.

If you can make that statement, then you obviously have not paid the slightest attention to anything I said here. The "truth" is that a couple of degenerates in military uniforms went against all military rules and regulations to get their kicks making fun of Iraqi prisoners.  By the way, you toss the word torture around fairly freely, as if there is no difference between stripping prisoners and making them bark like dogs and the Marquis deSade skinning victims before chopping off their heads. True, the actions were uncalled for and wrong but your "U.S tortures" based on what happened there is a little over the top.

What I am "mad" at is the unnecessary glee in which news agencies turned it into a global expose for personal motives. Freedom of the press also carries responsibilities. They disregarded any negatives their actions would create for the country and the soldiers in the field.....and for what? The action was uncovered. The investigation was in progress. Their actions were for little more than ratings and tittilation, with nothing on the positive side at all...and for this you applaud them.

Tell you what....the next time someone in your town commits a murder, let's get it on the evening news. Then let's get it on the national news, then the world news. Let us then further embellish it with statements like Michigan is a place where murders happen, acutally Michiganders are prone to commit murder. Let's make Michiganders hated in the world. Let's read in foreign papers condemnation of any person from Michigan, since they cannot be trusted to not murder. Let's get 60 Minutes there to cover this apparent lawlessness in Michigan and investigation teams trying to get to the root of this crisis. Should you be foolish enough to say, "Hey fellas, it was one guy committing a crime", let's listen to them respond "Was the crime committed? Was it by a Michigander? Can you deny that Michiganders murder and are, therefore, murderers? If you don't want the publicity, don't commit the crime." Would you be applauding the media then and wishing 60 Minutes great financial success for their efforts?

Well, that's exactly what happened in this case.....and these lame excuses about the public having the right to know and the freedom of the press and the people needing to learn the truth is all a bunch of balderdash in this case. Those points are certainly valid...but not here. It wasn't necessary, Ron. THAT"S what makes me mad. It was done for nothing more than personal profit and political partisan bias. THAT'S what makes me mad, Ron. It  served no useful purpose except to get ratings and it's world-wide exposure, as opposed to the internal investigation that was occurring, was extremely detrimental to our position in the Middle East. THAT'S what makes me mad, and for those it doesn't make mad, then they have my sympathy.

Ayn Rand certainly advocated making profits, but only in a moral way. She preached that money made any other way was worthless and of no benefit to the receiptient. There was nothing either moral or responsible in the way the press and 60 Minutes handled this....
Local Rebel
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22 posted 04-02-2007 02:33 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I just wanna know what's up with the title to this thread?

quote:

“through our wrongdoing”



Or is that just on my computer?

I've deleted all offline content and refreshed -- it just keeps getting longer?
Not A Poet
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23 posted 04-02-2007 10:39 AM       View Profile for Not A Poet   Email Not A Poet   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Not A Poet's Home Page   View IP for Not A Poet

That's strange, LR. Suddenly it looks right. Maybe Ron fixed. it.
Ron
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24 posted 04-02-2007 11:01 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Ron fixed it.
 
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